The Trayvon Martin Case

[Mike]

I religiously change my oil every 3,000 miles . . . and dump the used stuff down the drain.

 

Oh sure, we need to talk religion next. Let's not leave anything out of this thread!

 

 

Have I mentioned that I'm Catholic, but I'm really, really pissed off at my church? Which brings us to the whole issue of sex crimes, and prompts the question: "While the USA has a higher rate of homicide than many other industrialized nations against whom we are often compared, why is it that so many of those countries--Great Britain, Canada, German, Italy, and others held up as more civil--have dramatically higher rates of other violent crimes, like assault, robbery and rape?" Are the citizens of those countries inherently more violent or greedy? Do they hate women? Or is it possible that we each choose to vastly oversimplify in a manner that suits our preconceptions, ignoring the vast complexity of the human condition as it manifests itself in vastly different societies with distinct histories and values?

 

It seems to be a recurring theme, regardless of the shifting topics of discussion.

 

Every 3,000 miles, baby.

 

 

Those people need a little churchin up.

 

 

 

...and every 5000 miles is more than good enough.

 

 

 

 

"I have seen the light."

[pbharvey]

I'm curious if any other countries have a minority race of their population committing a majority of the murders? In 2010, 53% of the murders in the US were committed by blacks and 50% of the murder victims were black. source

 

Half of our murders and murderers are black yet they are less than 15% of the population.

 

Its the elephant in the room.

 

Where's the million man march to help stop this madness?

 

To figure out our homicide problem we need to figure out our black homicide problem.

[brennaman]

I'm curious if any other countries have a minority race of their population committing a majority of the murders? In 2010, 53% of the murders in the US were committed by blacks and 50% of the murder victims were black. source

 

Half of our murders and murderers are black yet they are less than 15% of the population.

 

Its the elephant in the room.

 

Where's the million man march to help stop this madness?

 

To figure out our homicide problem we need to figure out our black homicide problem.

 

I was just trying to look up those stats. The FBI lumps hispanic with causasion in thier stats, so it would take some research. But how does Canada (or any European country) compare when you look at stats by race? I know this can be a sensitive subject, but It looks like Canada and ourselves are not that far apart.

 

[beemerman2k]

I'm curious if any other countries have a minority race of their population committing a majority of the murders? In 2010, 53% of the murders in the US were committed by blacks and 50% of the murder victims were black. source

 

Half of our murders and murderers are black yet they are less than 15% of the population.

 

Its the elephant in the room.

 

Where's the million man march to help stop this madness?

 

To figure out our homicide problem we need to figure out our black homicide problem.

 

Many of us blacks on Facebook are asking this same question. In any case, after much pain and tooth pulling, all come to appreciate the fact that this is the real problem that threatens the black man, and not racism. You'd think it would be obvious, but not where there are planks blinding the eye.

[upflying]

Although we don't know if the the Zimmerman/Martin case is racially motivated, this spin-off case apparently is.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/12032142-418/prosecutors-trayvon-martin-case-led-to-racial-beating-in-oak-park.html

[tallman]

..can we turn this into an oil thread.

 

 

 

 

Whip, you kill me man.

 

Whips don't kill,

 

people do.

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

So... What happens when a black guy "stands his ground?" Do the same rules apply? Let's ask John McNeil - read this: http://www.salon.com/2012/04/11/when_stand_your_ground_fails/

 

-MKL

[upflying]

More "Justice for Trayvon".

 

http://www2.wkrg.com/news/2012/apr/23/26/man-beaten-mob-critical-condition-ar-3659891/

 

and

http://www.gainesville.com/article/20120409/ARTICLES/120409617

 

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlVHO19GwIk

[moshe_levy]

But Bob, see my post above. When justice is denied, some people take it into their own hands. It's rarely the right move, and obviously not the right move here before all the facts are known, but.... If the article I posted is accurate, which it seems to be, what does THAT say?

 

-MKL

[tallman]

No way to compare until facts presented in court.

In the Georgia case the man with the gun shot another man

who was rushing towards him.

All the incidents prior might have influenced the state of mind of the shooter, but there hadn't been any violence or physical contact before or at the time of the shooting.

Martin may or may not have initiated physical contact and inflicted bodily harm putting that shooter at fear for his life.

In the Georgia case no physical contact or evidence of threats at that time.

Perhaps that was enough to negate the claim of self-defense.

The artical said the shooter told his son to call 911 and wait for him to get there.

Any evidence of a 911 call?

Another difference?

 

We can all offer up plenty of other cases where the outcome seems

questionable.

But those are after the day in court.

Let's see how the Martin case unfolds...

[upflying]

But Bob, see my post above. When justice is denied, some people take it into their own hands. It's rarely the right move, and obviously not the right move here before all the facts are known, but.... If the article I posted is accurate, which it seems to be, what does THAT say?

 

-MKL

Another difference is McNeil knew the man he shot. McNeil also had motive to kill Epp over breach of the home construction contract.

[tallman]

Why the case against Zimmerman is Doomed

 

New Jersey coverage of Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz's

opinion.

[Matts_12GS]

Why the case against Zimmerman is Doomed

 

New Jersey coverage of Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz's

opinion.

 

Better check that link Tim...

[tallman]

Thanks.

It is a great pic of Crater Lake.

 

Here is the correct link where Dershowitz gives his opinion.

[Ken H.]

Thanks.

It is a great pic of Crater Lake.

 

Here is the correct link where Dershowitz gives his opinion.

If I were a betting man, I’d bet he’s right. The filling of 2nd degree was much more about public outcry than strong evidence. As much as I think Zimmerman was wrong, I predict the case will be dismissed. If the judge dismisses it with prejudice then as I understand, it re-filing even for manslaughter is out. I think he’ll walk away a free but very unpopular man. I hope I’m wrong, but I’d bet against my hopes.

[Ohio48]

Thanks.

It is a great pic of Crater Lake.

 

Here is the correct link where Dershowitz gives his opinion.

If I were a betting man, I’d bet he’s right. The filling of 2nd degree was much more about public outcry than strong evidence. As much as I think Zimmerman was wrong, I predict the case will be dismissed. If the judge dismisses it with prejudice then as I understand, it re-filing even for manslaughter is out. I think he’ll walk away a free but very unpopular man. I hope I’m wrong, but I’d bet against my hopes.

 

Unpopular to some, but not all. Don't get me wrong he wont be a hero, but not the devil.

[beemerman2k]

I like to think that as evidence comes forth, America in general and blacks in particular will respond in a responsible fashion. I just hope the evidence is more clear and compelling than it apparently was in the Casey Anthony trial. Already, though, if Facebook is any guide, many blacks are already beginning to question the way this case has been presented to the public, and whether this ever really had anything to do with race.

 

Although sure, there are those who are unlikely to ever see it as anything but a racial incident regardless of what evidence and facts reveal.

[Mike]

Thanks.

It is a great pic of Crater Lake.

 

Here is the correct link where Dershowitz gives his opinion.

 

I think Matt gets the prize for The Ultimate Hijack!

 

[Matts_12GS]

Thanks.

It is a great pic of Crater Lake.

 

Here is the correct link where Dershowitz gives his opinion.

 

I think Matt gets the prize for The Ultimate Hijack!

 

It was Tim, I promise!!

[Whip]

Ken.

 

"I hope I’m wrong, but I’d bet against my hopes."

 

 

I don't understand?

 

You wish to convict on your "hopes"...feeling?

 

L

[Mike]

Thanks.

It is a great pic of Crater Lake.

 

Here is the correct link where Dershowitz gives his opinion.

 

I think Matt gets the prize for The Ultimate Hijack!

 

It was Tim, I promise!!

 

That seems completely consistent with everything we know about him.

[moshe_levy]

Dershowitz makes a very powerful argument, I must say. We'll see if he's right but that's a damn powerful argument.

 

-MKL

[upflying]

Dershowitz makes a very powerful argument, I must say. We'll see if he's right but that's a damn powerful argument.

 

-MKL

So why are we not hearing any back-peddling and retractions from "community organizers" who were so quick to condemn Zimmerman in the Superior Court of the Media?

[tallman]

Thanks.

It is a great pic of Crater Lake.

 

Here is the correct link where Dershowitz gives his opinion.

 

I think Matt gets the prize for The Ultimate Hijack!

 

It was Tim, I promise!!

 

That seems completely consistent with everything we know about him.

 

Roger that.

I try to start my day with a check of the pic at APOD .

Sometimes it is inspiring...

 

had sent link and didn't well you know

 

[BFish]

Thanks.

It is a great pic of Crater Lake.

 

Here is the correct link where Dershowitz gives his opinion.

If I were a betting man, I’d bet he’s right. The filling of 2nd degree was much more about public outcry than strong evidence. As much as I think Zimmerman was wrong, I predict the case will be dismissed. If the judge dismisses it with prejudice then as I understand, it re-filing even for manslaughter is out. I think he’ll walk away a free but very unpopular man. I hope I’m wrong, but I’d bet against my hopes.

 

Just curious but why do you hope you're wrong? if there is a trial and he's guilty as charged fine, but if not, due process was not circumvented. none of us know what happened.

[racer7]

Dershowitz has a nice academically correct opinion but left out one thing he knows darn well but wouldn't want to admit.

 

I don't know how many judges you guys know or have met but its more than a few for me (no, not in their professional capacity). Almost all have a politicians streak a mile wide- that's how they got elected or appointed...

 

There's about as much chance of getting this thrown out at a first pass as the sun coming up backwards....

 

You need to remember the first thing all organizations do is protect themselves- courts, judges and the attornies in this case are no exception.

Zimmerman's (pick your favorite word- I'll use) carelessness got him a star pawns role in the show and he's stuck on stage until the show closes. Even if Dershowitz is right in his legal points, this local judge will run the show and let an appeals outfit reverse him later...

[DiggerJim]

So why are we not hearing any back-peddling and retractions from "community organizers" who were so quick to condemn Zimmerman in the Superior Court of the Media?

Because many believe that Justice=Zimmerman convicted. It's not about discovering the facts. When he was arrested there was much noise from the Martin family & legal team about how all they wanted was to get their day in court and get the truth out. When he was granted bail it was a "slap in the face" and further evidence that blacks couldn't get justice. The subtext is that he's guilty, just needs the niceties of trial to prove that and to let him out on bail is to let a murderer out. To the Martins and their supporters there is no more presumption of innocence than they say Zimmerman accorded Martin but that's a bit of intellectual dishonesty that doesn't seem to register. It's a perfect example of a reality distortion field effect. (Hats off to Steve Jobs' biographer for that term )

[notacop]

Conjecture, the opiate of the ST crowd.

 

Let the courts settle it out and stop second guessing everything you hear on Fox news.

 

And what do you think...Blah, Blah, Blah!

[pbharvey]

George Zimmerman, Prelude to a Shooting

[brennaman]

Let the courts settle it out and stop second guessing everything you hear on Fox news.

 

All I heard on Fox was wait for the facts, it will all come out in the trial. I think it was CBS that altered some audio to fit thier agenda.

[Peter Parts]

For sure, not fair to be tried in "the court of public opinion."

 

But I think it is hard not to feel that Zimmerman is a murderer in law and to any reasonable person's sense of justice because he is responsible for the consequences of his actions after the 911 operator said, "Desist, George." (Assuming the operator really did say something like that... which is what courts are for.)

 

Of course, I might say the same thing about anybody who leaves their home with a gun, police sometimes excepted.

 

Ben

[tallman]

Let the courts settle it out and stop second guessing everything you hear on Fox news.

 

All I heard on Fox was wait for the facts, it will all come out in the trial. I think it was CBS that altered some audio to fit thier agenda.

 

nbc

 

cbs falsified the 60 minutes stuff years ago staging an explosion under a vehicle

trying to show it was a design flaw and some other examples

 

 

 

[tallman]

For sure, not fair to be tried in "the court of public opinion."

 

But I think it is hard not to feel that Zimmerman is a murderer in law and to any reasonable person's sense of justice because he is responsible for the consequences of his actions after the 911 operator said, "Desist, George." (Assuming the operator really did say something like that... which is what courts are for.)

 

Of course, I might say the same thing about anybody who leaves their home with a gun, police sometimes excepted.

 

Ben

 

 

That is an extremely broad brush...

 

[Peter Parts]

For sure, not fair to be tried in "the court of public opinion."

 

But I think it is hard not to feel that Zimmerman is a murderer in law and to any reasonable person's sense of justice because he is responsible for the consequences of his actions after the 911 operator said, "Desist, George." (Assuming the operator really did say something like that... which is what courts are for.)

 

Of course, I might say the same thing about anybody who leaves their home with a gun, police sometimes excepted.

 

Ben

 

 

That is an extremely broad brush...

 

I thank you for responding in such a civil manner to my comment which some might take as provocative.

 

Frankly, I was debating whether to say "own a gun"!

 

I think it is fair to say that if you leave the house with a gun, you have to accept the consequences. And even if you are a cop. Anything wrong in saying that?

 

As criminologists and police thinkers will tell you, gun proliferation leads to no good, whatever fantasies some might hold based on watching too many crime shows on TV and John Wayne movies. Carrying a gun is just plain cowardice.

 

Reasonable to think Zimmerman would be better off today if he had not toted his gun.

 

Ben

[bobbybob]

I know this isn't admissable as evidence as its mostly "hearsay" and really not relevant to this particular case, but found it interesting as it painted a picture of Z over the last few years prior to the incident, and gives some insight into his frame of mind at the time of the incident.

 

http://www.newsmax.com/US/zimmerman-trayvon-shooting-gun/2012/04/25/id/437099

 

[Huzband]

Carrying a gun is just plain cowardice.

 

That is nothing more than misinformed conjecture.

 

Reasonable to think Zimmerman would be better off today if he had not toted his gun.

 

Based on what? That he'd be a hero for getting his head bashed in on the side walk? Better to have brain damage or be dead himself?

 

You certainly have a right to your opinion, & I don't expect to change it here. But please try not to make statements that are based in ignorance.

[Mike]

"Cowardice." "Ignorance." Probably not the best tone for an attempt at enlightened debate. I'd ask all to step back from your emotions and try to be respectful of one another.

 

Yours in moderation,

Mike

[Peter Parts]

"Cowardice." "Ignorance." Probably not the best tone for an attempt at enlightened debate. I'd ask all to step back from your emotions and try to be respectful of one another.

 

Yours in moderation,

Mike

 

Right. But the problem is that the thought was horrible to some, not just the choice of word. I might have said "unjustified fear," a nicer term.

 

50 years ago, I worked in Bedford-Stuyvesant, a profound Brooklyn slum, as a Welfare investigator. I know of one person in our unit who carried a gun in her purse. But don't know of anyone else who reacted with that kind of justified or unjustified fear. You can bet we were all fearful but we went about our jobs, unlike Zimmerman, with what was called manly courage, in those days.

 

Or maybe we were crazy.

 

Ben

[Bob_Minor]

Let the courts settle it out and stop second guessing everything you hear on Fox news.

 

All I heard on Fox was wait for the facts, it will all come out in the trial. I think it was CBS that altered some audio to fit thier agenda.

 

nbc

 

cbs falsified the 60 minutes stuff years ago staging an explosion under a vehicle

trying to show it was a design flaw and some other examples

 

 

 

 

It wasn't 60 Minutes, it was NBC's Dateline.

 

Dateline NBC

 

[Ewell D.]

I have followed this thread from the beginning and keep feeling the need to contribute these thoughts.

 

Having held a concealed carry permit for decades I used to carry a handgun pretty frequently. My wife would ask if I really felt threatened enough to need a gun. My answer was usually that it would be of no use to me if I left it at home. I now feel that it cannot get me in trouble if I don't have it with me.

 

My attitude was changed by the comments of an attorney presented as part of a Utah concealed carry class. I was taking the class to increase the number of States in which I could legally carry.

 

Some of the attorney's comments were:

 

"I can defend the emptying of the weapon into the body of the deceased, my client was so distraught that he simply kept pulling the trigger until the weapon would no longer fire."

 

"I cannot defend a single bullet to the forehead or the leg, if my client had the presence of mind to aim that accurately they had the presence of mind to avoid the confrontation."

 

"If you use your weapon to kill another person, even if totally in the right in defense of your life, you will - make enemies of the deceased's family and friends - lose the respect and friendship of many of your own family and friends - be forced to defend your actions in the court of law while incurring enormous legals costs - in short your life will be forever changed and not for the good."

 

That attorney's comments forever changed the way I look at my right to carry a concealed firearm. Now carrying feels like a huge liability. I am very selective about when and where I chose to be armed. I no longer grab the pistol just because I can. I find I seldom carry in urban environments because I do not venture out into areas or at times that I feel threatened. To my surprise, due in large part to an hour spent with a Deputy Sheriff I came across while bow hunting in the Willamette National Forest, I mostly carry while away from civilization.

 

Whether he was in the right or not, George Zimmerman's life has been forever altered. We should all consider that and the comments of this thread as we make our own decisions about carrying concealed weapons.

[tallman]

Sorry but that attorney is full of hot air.

First demonstrating that type of accuracy (hitting a leg or one shot to the forehead) is difficult under stress (particularly with a small handgun).

(Except on tv/movies)

Any attorney worth their salt could argue just as well for the lucky shot as for the emptied the clip.

Avoid the confrontation?

Again, total lack of comprehension.

If one has to use a weapon one would be unable to avoid the confrontation.

A primary tenet of CCW classes I've been to.

Avoid the problem first.

Do all you can including retreat if practical.

But once the line is crossed by the other side, once you are in fear for your life, a choice will need to be made. That choice isn't on the table if you can avoid the confrontation.

I'd talk to another attorney.

.02

 

[Ewell D.]

Tim

 

My post was not intended to give credence to the attorneys words necessarily but to say they struck a chord with me which caused me to be much less care free about arming myself. I felt degrees of liability and vulnerability I had not felt before.

 

Do I still carry? You bet! But it is not something I do on a whim but after careful consideration of the necessity. I cannot imagine myself being caught up in the events of George Zimmerman's life right now and I never want to experience them first hand.

 

 

 

 

[Ohio48]

Tim

 

My post was not intended to give credence to the attorneys words necessarily but to say they struck a chord with me which caused me to be much less care free about arming myself. I felt degrees of liability and vulnerability I had not felt before.

 

Do I still carry? You bet! But it is not something I do on a whim but after careful consideration of the necessity. I cannot imagine myself being caught up in the events of George Zimmerman's life right now and I never want to experience them first hand.

 

 

 

 

Ohio law for CCW he would be in jail. He followed, your supposed to go in the opposite direction. Unless he has you cornered in YOUR HOUSE, with no way out, that is when you can use deadly force.

[tallman]

Tim

 

My post was not intended to give credence to the attorneys words necessarily but to say they struck a chord with me which caused me to be much less care free about arming myself. I felt degrees of liability and vulnerability I had not felt before.

 

Do I still carry? You bet! But it is not something I do on a whim but after careful consideration of the necessity. I cannot imagine myself being caught up in the events of George Zimmerman's life right now and I never want to experience them first hand.

 

 

 

 

Ohio law for CCW he would be in jail. He followed, your supposed to go in the opposite direction. Unless he has you cornered in YOUR HOUSE, with no way out, that is when you can use deadly force.

 

 

Duty to retreat.

Used to be that here but the absurdity that you had to run out of your house using another exit, if possible (whatever that means)

created some issues.

Besides, criminals don't care what the law says...

[longjohn]

Reasonable to think Zimmerman would be better off today if he had not toted his gun.

 

Ben

 

Yep. +1

[upflying]

Tim

 

My post was not intended to give credence to the attorneys words necessarily but to say they struck a chord with me which caused me to be much less care free about arming myself. I felt degrees of liability and vulnerability I had not felt before.

 

Do I still carry? You bet! But it is not something I do on a whim but after careful consideration of the necessity. I cannot imagine myself being caught up in the events of George Zimmerman's life right now and I never want to experience them first hand.

 

 

 

I agree, firearm discharge liability (especially civil) scares the hell out of me. But as someone mentioned earlier, being judged by a jury of 12 is much better than being carried by 6 pall bearers.

Zimmerman's criminal trouble is nothing compared to the lawsuits he will be facing.

[Ken H.]

I predict the case will be dismissed. If the judge dismisses it with prejudice then as I understand, it re-filing even for manslaughter is out. I think he’ll walk away a free but very unpopular man. I hope I’m wrong, but I’d bet against my hopes.

Just curious but why do you hope you're wrong? if there is a trial and he's guilty as charged fine, but if not, due process was not circumvented. none of us know what happened.

Because I think he should be tried. He took the life of a person and that should be weighed with all due gravity. For the case to just be summarily dismissed would be a travesty of justice IMHO.

 

By almost all societies’ definitions taking the life another human is one the most grave things we do. It should not be dismissed casually.

 

Plus I greatly fear where this will go next it the public if the case is just dismissed. Both from the immediate reaction, e.g. protest, riots, etc. and the perceived precedent it will set (note I said perceived) that the cuffs are off when it comes to legally shooting someone. I.e. SYG laws are a license to kill. (Yes I know, the right to defend one’s self has always been there. However codifying it specifically takes acceptance of deadly force in the face of any perceived personal threat to a new and dangerous level of acceptability IMHO.) You’re heading back to the wild, wild west there in the USA where everything is settled in the moment with a gun battle. Hardly the way to progress as a functional society/country.

 

If he’s tried in a full blow trial that’s one thing, I think the reaction will be far less sever. People with thing justice has ran its dutiful course, regardless of the verdict. But an outright dismissal? I think it will turn ugly.

 

 

[Whip]

I predict the case will be dismissed. If the judge dismisses it with prejudice then as I understand, it re-filing even for manslaughter is out. I think he’ll walk away a free but very unpopular man. I hope I’m wrong, but I’d bet against my hopes.

Just curious but why do you hope you're wrong? if there is a trial and he's guilty as charged fine, but if not, due process was not circumvented. none of us know what happened.

Because I think he should be tried. He took the life of a person and that should be weighed with all due gravity. For the case to just be summarily dismissed would be a travesty of justice IMHO.

 

By almost all societies’ definitions taking the life another human is one the most grave things we do. It should not be dismissed casually.

 

Plus I greatly fear where this will go next it the public if the case is just dismissed. Both from the immediate reaction, e.g. protest, riots, etc. and the perceived precedent it will set (note I said perceived) that the cuffs are off when it comes to legally shooting someone. I.e. SYG laws are a license to kill. (Yes I know, the right to defend one’s self has always been there. However codifying it specifically takes acceptance of deadly force in the face of any perceived personal threat to a new and dangerous level of acceptability IMHO.) You’re heading back to the wild, wild west there in the USA where everything is settled in the moment with a gun battle. Hardly the way to progress as a functional society/country.

 

If he’s tried in a full blow trial that’s one thing, I think the reaction will be far less sever. People with thing justice has ran its dutiful course, regardless of the verdict. But an outright dismissal? I think it will turn ugly.

 

 

The Rule of Law is more important than politics, feelings, or fear.

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

The Rule of Law is more important than politics, feelings, or fear.

 

My brother, I wholeheartedly agree. So I'll save this quote of yours to remind you of such next time a law runs counter to your politics or your feelings.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

The Rule of Law is more important than politics, feelings, or fear.

 

My brother, I wholeheartedly agree. So I'll save this quote of yours to remind you of such next time a law runs counter to your politics or your feelings.

 

-MKL

 

 

I would appreciate it if you would.

 

 

Detroit public schools are not known for their academics.