The Trayvon Martin Case

[Dave McReynolds]

"are Patrick's sentiments what most everyone on the forum wants to say, but won't?"

 

Not mine. When I was a young child, I was visiting a farm with my cousin. The farm belonged to the grandfather of my cousin. I remember the grandfather giving my cousin a ride on the tractor all around the farm, and waiting for my turn....which never came. I remember that 60 years later, and hope that I learned never to do something like that to another child.

[beemerman2k]

Patrick, I have been asking this question throughout this thread: why is it that others here can question George Zimmerman's suitability to the task, and yet they receive no challenges, yet I question it, and everyone gets on my case? Why is that, Patrick? Why aren't you in Bob's face telling him about victims and entitlements and so on?

[Matts_12GS]

Being white, I doubt you can really appreciate the significance of this elderly woman's behavior to my daughters outlook.

 

My, what racism James. How disappointing that you took the words of a fool and made them your own...

 

Matt, do you feel you can appreciate the significance of this moment? If so, you have made my day. Pats reaction, sadly, is more in line with what I was expecting to hear.

 

Sorry all for my own racial myopia.

 

James, I have been discriminated against for both my race and my gender in hiring and promotions. I appreciate that it hurt your feelings, and that it irritated you and elevated your concern for the feelings/development/thoughts of your child. But, laying that big heavy race card like that is beneath you and does little but perpetuate racial issues in your own little way...

 

If I flipped the tables in your story, you would call me out. I did the same to keep you honest with us and with yourself.

[beemerman2k]

Matt, my point is NOT that I am somehow handicapped, or under privileged, or anything like that. My point is that I have a narrative that differs from most others here because my life experiences differ from most others here.

 

Do you feel I am somehow looking for special sympathy with my remarks? I am not! I am so absolutely not looking for any special sympathy as I feel I am not a special case. In fact, I feel that I am among the most blessed Americans in the country -- regardless of race!

 

I don't think I am aware of what you all are hearing, I am only aware of what I am saying, and why I am saying it. My point is not that I am somehow worthy of sympathy, or that I have been beat up by racism, or anything of the sort. My point is not that you should feel even the slightest twang of guilt as I am totally opposed to this idea of "white guilt". You cannot imagine how much I feel that sentiment has and is destroying our society. In fact, I even wonder to what degree this white guilt thing is responsible for this constant presentation of white/black clashes in our society as they are presented.

 

I have experienced painful experienced because of my race. That does not make me angry, it does not make me a sad story, it does not make me eligible for affirmative action social sympathy. The only reason I share these things is to drive home the point that those experiences prompt me to write a different narrative of what happened that night than what you might assume. That's it. That's all. That's the only point I am trying to make. Finito!

 

Am I right? Am I particularly justified or qualified? Do I have special insight into the reality of that event? Absolutely NOT! I only have the right to form an opinion, that's it.

 

Should I experience what I do, yet totally ignore the experience? Should I pretend that innocent black men do not get profiled for fear that I might be playing the 'race card'? In fact, upon where do I lay the blame for all this profiling anyhow? I took a lot of heat in this thread for doing so, but where to I lay the blame for it all? Anyone remember?

[beemerman2k]

Folks, things are real nice and hot right about now. I just want you to know that I LOVE THIS STUFF!

 

Thank you all for your participation. This is great stuff. What we're doing here, in our own way, is furthering the bounds of understanding between our respective races, viewpoints, experiences, and so on. ***This IS the conversation on race the country needs to have, we're having it right here***

 

Thank you everyone. Thank you Patrick, Moshe, Tim, Matt, Kathy, Bob, motorinLA, Polo -- everyone! This is great stuff right here.

 

Do not despair and do not give up! If you feel you are right about something, but not able to communicate with me or reach me in some way, don't worry about it. I am reading and thinking about everything that is said in this thread. I am asking myself tons of questions as to why it was said, and what am I missing. Someday, I might be talking to my daughters and suddenly realize that what I am telling them is exactly what Patrick was trying to tell me! You never know. And something similar could happen to you.

 

This is great stuff right here. I am very pleased

[pmurphy]

Patrick, I have been asking this question throughout this thread: why is it that others here can question George Zimmerman's suitability to the task, and yet they receive no challenges, yet I question it, and everyone gets on my case? Why is that, Patrick? Why aren't you in Bob's face telling him about victims and entitlements and so on?

 

I guess it is because of your story about the elderly WHITE women, praising the WHITE child, and not yours.

 

It could have been a story about and elderly women praising one child over another, but your choice of bringing race into the narrative is what motivated me in to commenting.

 

The story is simple, one human being entered into a conflict with another. The end result is someone died. In following this thread, I just keep feeling that the argument is becoming that one side deserves bonus innocence points because they happened to be black.

 

Your narratives constantly bring race into the issue. Equality should be color and gender blind. No bonus points for anyone.

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Your narratives constantly bring race into the issue.

 

I'm sorry, but I have been challenged all through this thread, since page 1, for the assumptions that I clearly have with regard to what happened that night. What is also clear, is that my narrative differs from most everyone else here. So I began to investigate why that is. The simple fact is that my experiences as a black man has painted the way I see the world. That's a fact. That's all I have been trying to establish here.

 

Equality should be color and gender blind.

 

No argument from me on this one. And fortunately, just within my life time (I am 52 years old), huge progress has been made such that I am out here, competing in the free enterprise system, with total confidence that I will be judged purely based upon my technical competence to do the job at hand. I have worked this way since the late 80's, and I have been quite successful doing so. No affirmative action. No government programs. Just me and the marketplace.

 

Computers don't care who you (think you) are, or what your life story is. They will only ever do exactly what you tell them to do. So if you don't know what you're doing, the computer will reveal that fact very quickly.

 

No bonus points for anyone.

 

None whatsoever. Agreed 1000%. *IF* (I said, "IF", people) Trayvon Martin was profiled, and this whole thing started simply because of his race, that doesn't mean black people are "victims", that doesn't mean America is "racist", that doesn't mean the country should grant us special privileges. That doesn't mean the next race based "media show" to hit the airwaves means the black person should get the benefit of the doubt (though through my black eyes, he/she just might).

 

That simply means that George Zimmerman made a grave error, and now he must pay for it. End of story.

 

But IF he did not make an error, if indeed Trayvon Martin was indeed involved in criminal activity, if he did attack George Zimmerman unprovoked, then George Zimmerman deserves not only to go free, but to be welcomed back into society and maybe even restored to his position as the Captain of a neighborhood watch. In fact, I think he might finally make a fine officer with the Stanford Police department. He can look the country in the eye and proclaim: "I earned this badge, folks!" And all we can do in response is

[moshe_levy]

That simply means that George Zimmerman made a grave error, and now he must pay for it. End of story.

 

No, you're wrong. The whole idea that crime is crime on one playing field is wrong, and that's not how the law is written. That's a black-and-white fantasy land that has no basis in reality. What if I murder you to steal your money to feed my starving daughter vs. vs. I murder you because you're black vs. I murder you because I'm high on PCP? Same thing? Just "stealing?" Not the way the law is written. Different sentences - VERY different - for each of those three murders. Like it? Don't? Doesn't matter. That's the law. Shades of gray.

 

There's been alot of "that's reality" bandied about here, but not much acceptance of actual reality, at all. Reality dictates that some crime is motivated purely and solely by predjudice. Some of these crimes, like James Byrd Jr. and Matthew Shepard, garnish headlines - while many others do not. The fact is - the REALITY is - those crimes (murders) were committed 100% solely based on predjudice. Not based on greed, or avarice, on need or on fear. No provacation. Just pure hatred for someone who looks or acts differently. And then murder. And then outrage at the senselessness of it all.

 

I am NOT saying that is what happened here - YET. The facts have yet to be presented. I am saying this to counter - easily counter, I might add - the preposterous claim that juctice is neutral and crime is crime. That is absurd, and history very clearly shows this. Abstraction and ivory tower ideals do not mean reality can be explained so easily or compartmentalized so quickly, IF the brain is engaged.

 

-MKL

[beemerman2k]

Well, it might not be 'end of story' for this case, but it will be 'end of story' with respect to this thread. That's all I meant by that statement. I am a total ignoramus when it comes to the law, or how the judicial system works (and yet, I just completed a contract with the State of Connecticut's Judicial Branch ).

 

What that system did (the Judicial branch software) was simply track an inmates progress through the judicial system, from initial arrest, detention, trial, jail time, and parole or any other requirements put upon the criminal by the court. But how those decisions get made, and why, was not the domain of this application.

[tallman]

Moshe,

So it is ok for you to mock Zimmerman's erudition?

Isn't that evidence of a preconceived bias on your part?

Based on what?

His race/gender/age/locale?

 

Aren't you the person who posted not long ago about taking the law into your own hands and engaging in a hot pursuit?

Good thing that didn't have unintended consequences, right?

 

James,

Racial profiling?

Well, my father in law died as a result of a beating by 2 black men he befriended on a hot south Florida summer afternoon.

My father was mugged and beaten by 2 black men.

I had a black man try to force his way into our house. The duty to retreat law was in effect at the time so I hollered for my wife to

call 911 and engaged in hand to hand, as allowed by law.

Our family had a car shot up in a drive by shooting, shooter a young black male with a grudge towards my daughter (yes, other people have daughters too).

I was robbed, at gun point, stopped at a light in Miami. My passenger had a knife put to their throat. Both criminals were black males.

I was jumped by a knife weilding black male, whose intentions I don't know, but I did disarm him and survive.

I was also a victim in an attempted mugging/robbery/worse, when hit with a large pipe walking to our car after dinner. Fortunately the young hispanic hit me in the head, merely making me angry.

 

Of course there are positives. Many friends (local NAACP prez is good friend, our daughters went to school together and his son attended my private school) team memebers over the years, students, athletes, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, neighbors, and co-workers all who have had a hand in the upbringing of children

 

Those are some of the top 10's, there are others. Becasue/despite any of this, I continue to work with challenged youth, criminals, of all races. Hopefully I make a difference with some.

 

James you ask questions about repsonses to some posts and not to others. A valid question. Again, I see a big difference between

a LEO called to the scene for a suspicious person rewsponse and a NW person who lives in the community, is aware of the break ins.

There may be a more personal response by one, most likely a result of training and vested interest.

 

As I said earlier. This will be touted as a gun case. Baloney.

You say it is because an unarmed man was killed by one with a gun (another reason I added the research crime data as that happens every x minutes in this country). Baloney.

This case was originally brought to the public based on a white/black shooting. For many, that is how it will be perceived.

 

The whole case will come down to first, seating a jury, and second

if the prosecution can refute Z's asserrtion of self defense.

Without new witness testimony that is unlikely.

Like I said, no one is going to like the verdict, if there is one.

If by some chance a trial happens and Z is found guilty, many will look at that as a result of the media portrayal, not facts, much as some did after the OJ trial.

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Moshe,

So it is ok for you to mock Zimmerman's erudition?

Isn't that evidence of a preconceived bias on your part?

Based on what?

His race/gender/age/locale?

 

My mocking was more your allegation regarding his supposed POV, when no evidence exists to support that allegation. And further, to point out that while you spend a great deal of time discussing what Z's POV is, nobody bothers with what Martin's might be. Z might be Einstein for all I know. Perhaps you're right about his POV, but at this point it is a hypothesis and no more. In that circumstance, there is nothing wrong with pointing out that Martin, too, has a POV.

 

I know you have your beliefs about this not being a gun case. Understand others don't share that belief, and don't understand the culture that feels all of this is "just another day in the park." The idea of some armed self appointed community watchman, to me as a New Jersian, is about as foreign as can be, is frankly horrific, and would raise more than eyebrows around here. If someone has a gun around here, he has a badge too. You likely find this sickening - we don't. Understand that divide exists.

 

You listed a bevvy of what's happened to you. When I was 12, all I wanted for my birthday was a fancy BMX freestyle bike. I saved for a year, mowing lawns and such, and I bought it. It was expensive as all hell, maybe $450.00 or so BACK THEN. For a bike! (Man, was I crazy, but I digress). A month after I had it, a young black kid knocked me off of it as I was riding along, and stole it. I was crushed. The cops did nothing - but my mom is a little more aggressive than the cops on my bike thievery, so she called all the local schools, one by one, and asked them to check their parking lots. Sure enough, she found my bike within a week.

 

Did it mold me against black people, even as a 12 year old who had his prized possession stolen? No, of course not. Because even back as a young child, I recognized that the guy who stole my bike was an individual. Just like the individual who found my toddler brother when he got lost in the mall for 4 hours (cops on the scene, again, found nothing - but an elderly black lady found him, and took the time and effort to bring him back to us personally). Just like the black guy who pulled my Sportster out of a ditch when I accidentally rolled into it as a new rider - a 6'5" hulk of man on a CBR1000 who had the brute strength to just pull it AND ME out by hand and push us to safety. Just like the black nurses who were so comforting when my first daughter was born premature and hooked up to a thousand hoses, and we were freaking out. There are so many examples.

 

They're not all criminals (and I know you weren't saying they are). They're not all heroes. They're INDIVIDUALS. Just like everyone else. As Ayn Rand said, there is no more persecuted minority than the individual. I'm waiting for the evidence, just like you.

 

-MKL

[Matts_12GS]

James,

I recognize that you have a different set of experiences than I do. And you must recognize that yours are different from mine. Neither is better nor worse than the others, they are merely different.

 

Because of that, when I hear you dropping the "because you're white" sentiment I choose to call BS on you for copping out.

 

You have an expressed sensitivity to people treating your children without the respect due all people, good on you! Recognize and think before reacting or speaking. It's potentially not as nefarious or bad as it seems. If it is, you can make a more reasoned response that might change the views of an established bigot. If not, you can respond more inline with the values of Dr. King and be truer to yourself.

 

That's all I'm saying my friend.

[RTJohn]

You sure know how to stir things up! OK, for myself, here goes. I think Zimmerman screwed up. He never should have been armed. Neighbor Hood Watch isn't Neighbor Hood Shoot! He should have called 911 and retreated. He didn't and a young man is dead. Tragic. Racial profiling...dunno. I don't know Zimmermans mind. For myself, when I see young men nearby dressed as thugs, trying to be intimidating, my threat radar perks up. I don't care what color they are. Black, brown and increasingly white kids all think it is cool to be a thug, to be dangerous. Incredible! Why? My son went to high school with a black kid who played football. He was also an A student. He told my son the only reason some of the black kids didn't beat him up "for trying to be white (i.e. good grades)" was because he could handle himself pretty well. I don't think that's limited to black kids. I see white kids trying real hard to know nothing except cuss words and what's cool today. Like all cultures, ours is evolving, morphing into something I don't think is positive. My 1.5 cents worth.

[beemerman2k]

James,

I recognize that you have a different set of experiences than I do. And you must recognize that yours are different from mine. Neither is better nor worse than the others, they are merely different.

 

Thank you, Matt. So maybe we can now take this discussion to the next level: the problem, as best I can determine at this point, is that we all have different stories, and cases like this one go viral because it resonates with each of our personal experiences.

 

When a story resonates with all of us on the same page, that is a great thing, right? Next, you have a block buster of a movie (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings), or maybe a war hero. We are all on the same page and all is good.

 

But how should we handle it when a story divides us, like this one does?

 

Tim, I'm sitting here wondering what your point is. First of all, I am not moving to Florida! But are you saying, "this is why I have the story I have", or "James, I have had unpleasant inter-racial interactions as well", or "if you knew the realities of life in Florida, you'd identify with Z, too"?

 

Because of that, when I hear you dropping the "because you're white" sentiment I choose to call BS on you for copping out.

 

You have an expressed sensitivity to people treating your children without the respect due all people, good on you! Recognize and think before reacting or speaking. It's potentially not as nefarious or bad as it seems. If it is, you can make a more reasoned response that might change the views of an established bigot. If not, you can respond more inline with the values of Dr. King and be truer to yourself.

 

That's all I'm saying my friend.

 

I am on my iPhone, so I am hampered from expressing myself, but let's see if I can manage here.

 

There is so much to Matts words, so much! Here's the bottom line question that I have in light of Matt's encouragements to me: is there a way we can learn, as a nation, to express our unique stories in a way that others can hear, listen to, relate to, identify with, yet understand that neither the story teller, the listener, or anyone else is making gestures that suggest a "my story is somehow more legitimate, special, important, real than your story"? Maybe this is the real heart and soul of the 'racial divide' in America; we are not listening to each others stories, or we are telling our stories in a manner that either does argue a "special case", which is a counter productive argument, or that comes across that way, which is a failure in communications.

 

I must admit that we blacks do have a tendency to view, and to communicate that our stories are somehow, "special". In fact, we have huge planks, as I have already discussed, but we have huge myopias as well. When I am "profiled" at Best Buy for instance, I only know that I was singled out, and it's insulting. What I am not aware of is the fact that not 5 minutes ago, another black man was actually caught trying to steal. What I am not aware if is the all too frequent reality that black people do often shoplift at that store. I am not aware of those stories. I am not aware of Tims stories that color his view of things (well, I am certainly more aware now!).

 

But at the end of the day, would you say that this is the problem with respect to the way black people tell their story? Is that what all the anger represents, the "black panthers", Jesse and Al, the whole lot of us, screaming at the country that our story is somehow special, more pain-ridden, more deserving of 'special case' status, etc? Is this what is meant by the term, "race card"?

 

In fact, let me take this a step further: what do the black peoples stories sound like to you (this should be interesting :smile:)?

[beemerman2k]

I can identify with your sons black high school friend. In high school, I was often viewed as somewhat strange by my black classmates. Why? I loved motorcycles (a white mans activity), Led Zepplin, I did not participate in any black student unions, I had no anger or other issues. It was just me and a good time, who ever it was spent with.

 

But I was also a very cocky martial artist and body builder, so if anyone had any reservations, they never expressed them to me! I have since determined by the number of Facebook invites among my old high school classmates that I was not viewed as strangely as I might have thought.

[moshe_levy]

But at the end of the day, would you say that this is the problem with respect to the way black people tell their story? Is that what all the anger represents, the "black panthers", Jesse and Al, the whole lot of us, screaming at the country that our story is somehow special, more pain-ridden, more deserving of 'special case' status, etc? Is this what is meant by the term, "race card"?

 

For every Panther, there is a KKK. For every Jesse or Al, there is a Fred Phelps. These are fringe organizations that get alot of play in the press and not much traction in "real life" because their respective organization number only a handful.

 

But to discuss any situation without historical context is, in my view, ALWAYS the wrong thing to do. Always. Because history is always the key to understanding how things are today, how they got this way, what was tried (if anything) to make it better, and therefore a fairly accurate predictor of what will and won't work now and into the future.

 

When my parents immigrated to this country, the Civil Rights movement was in full swing. Hopefully nobody needs a history lesson to understand how this country SAID one thing - equal justice under the law - and DID another. Not for a little while. For centuries. Coming off of the outright genocide of Native Americans, America found another "less than" to target. The church bombings, the lynchings, the firehoses and the dogs - the laws to prevent people from reading, from becoming educated, from the common public dignity we all take for granted - in my parents' lifetime! Such a short time ago! We are fools to forget this.

 

Does it affect perspective? One would be an absolute dolt to say "No, it doesn't." And obviously, the condition was not fully eradicated in 1964. It continues in many pockets today, right here in this country and all over the world.

 

There is a line. A line where one can blame his entire life fully on outside circumstance, and take no responsibility for his own choices, and effort, and actions. That, to me, is the "race card." It is an "abuse excuse." There is no doubt, it exists.

 

On the other side of that line is a person who does not have this history. A person who has never, every experienced anything close to true discrimination, and the humiliation and anger that comes with it. And this person says to the former, "Get over it!!" and then launches into some ridiculous moral equivalence between, say, what happened to American Indians or Blacks and the Irish and Chinese. As if crime is crime. As if murder and jaywalking are one of the same. That is stupid. That is NOT the race card - that is ignorance, alive and well in 2012, agitated by an election year and backwards fools looking for convenient scapegoats on which to blame their own failures.

 

So you see, there is, in fact a "reverse race card," AKA racism. Not "I'm kept down because of MY race," but "I'm kept down because of YOUR race." Such is the unvarnished mark of a thoroughbred idiot. There are way too many such idiots - they outnumber the Panthers, Jesse and Al, and all the rest by a wide, wide margin. And the proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

 

-MKL

[Selden]

Last week, I read a brief piece by novelist Walter Mosley that really hit a nerve: Walter Mosley on Trayvon Martin Case and Racial Identity

 

I remember one time I was walking down this lonely road with a white friend. We both had long hair and were feeling no pain. It was nighttime, and the desert air felt good to us. A police cruiser pulled up out of nowhere, it seemed. A big policeman got out and pointed his pistol at my groin. He said, “Why did you break into that building over there?”

 

What was I supposed to say? My father always told me, “Never argue with a man with a gun.” Never argue with a policeman, for that matter.

 

I claimed innocence while imagining explosive castration.

 

My friend calmly said that he attended the nearby college and that we had been together all night. He didn’t show any ID nor did he say what we had been doing. But he was white and that was that. The police left us alone, and I, still feeling pretty good, continued on my walk with my friend.

[tallman]

Moshe,

The evidence exists.

He called 911.

His statement is he was returning to his truck.

His rationale for calling 911 is also in evidence.

Martin's evidence for his state of mind is also in the use of a phone (at least as reported, talking to his girlfriend).

 

 

As far as the fairy tale about New Jersey, facts don't support that POV.

"Law enforcement officials around the state said several factors — the increased presence of street gangs in New Jersey, the stagnant economy and a statewide jump in nonfatal shootings — could have served as catalysts for the increase.

 

There were 363 homicides in New Jersey last year, according to the survey, compared with 320 in 2009. The last time the state saw an annual hike in homicides was 2006, when 427 people were killed, according to statistics."

 

Perhaps the papers don't report these facts in NJ.

 

 

 

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Bill Cosby speaks:

 

The problem is not race, but guns!

 

I don't know that his views will be any easier to take than that which I have expressed, but he at least agrees that race is not the issue here.

[Huzband]

I heard his comments on the radio this morning, & they're foolish at best.The problem is not guns, & this certainly is not a case of "guns on the streets".

[Ken H.]

you guys have no idea what this is like! No idea, whatsoever.

No we don't. But I believe every word of what you wrote.

[tallman]

Bill Cosby speaks:

 

The problem is not race, but guns!

 

I don't know that his views will be any easier to take than that which I have expressed, but he at least agrees that race is not the issue here.

 

 

Convince me.

What is different about this case from the hundreds/thousands of other handgun deaths where one was armed and the other wasn't?

2008 (prob more recent out there but this from gov't data)

669 whites under age of 18 were homicide victims

640 blacks under age of 18 were homicide victims

remember any of those cases?

Their parents do.

Did the media go 24/7 over any of those cases?

This has been my point, not well made, that if it really is about the gun, why now?

There are thousands of cases involving deaths of under 18 yo's.

I still think it is because of the media reperesntation of a white/black crime and the Richard Jewell syndrome.

Media presents thier version and public draws a conclusion based on errors or intentional misrepresentations.

 

James, you said you'd like me to think you give the same scrutiny to all cases like this, yet this is the only one I recall you bringing

to this forum.

 

Again, why?

That in no way means I have drawn a conclusion one way or another.

I want Martin to have the same opportunity as Zimmerman, an opportunity for facts to be presented and a decision made.

 

So what particular fact, not speculation, not media misrepresentation, what fact is there that makes this a gun case?

Merely saying Z was armed and M wasn't isn't enough for me, because thousands and thousands have been victims in similar circumstances.

 

The media portrayed this as a race/possible hate crime where the victim was stalked by an overzealous NW individual.

They intentionally ran out of date photos.

They intentionally edited the 911 call.

Why?

To bring attention to the fact one was armed (legally)?

 

Don't buy it.

 

When the NAACP flew the lynching flag in front of their headquarters it was to draw attention to the evil violation

of civil rights against black americans. It flew often and was a necessary method to call attention to the bias

and prejudice fostered by some members of society and even law enforcement/judicial system.

 

If the facts show Zimmerman is evil, this was an intentional act, then it is on par with the evils of the past.

If the facts show Z acted in self defense, the portrayal of this by the media so far is also tainted.

 

 

Moshe,

I probably sounded harsher than I intended wrt NJ data, but it is a fact nearly one person/day is murdered in NJ.

Since Martin was a young person

so Moshe I should have said the problem is nearly omnipresent in our country.

 

So seeing it is such a widespread issue, why the Martin case?

[Ohio48]

beemerman2k, not sure what you were looking for when you posted this thread, but lets talk about Ohio State and Michigan football, it's much more fun, and we wont end up not talking to each other in the end!!

[tallman]

James and I will always talk, rest assured.

 

 

But, I don;t talk to Ohio State or Michigan fans.

[moshe_levy]

so Moshe I should have said the problem is nearly omnipresent in our country. So seeing it is such a widespread issue, why the Martin case?

 

I would ask, "Why does it matter?" Sometimes it takes ONE case to bring a subject to light that somehow hadn't been getting the attention it deserved.

 

For example, here in NJ when I was in college in 1994, a young 7 year old girl by the name of Megan Kanka was raped and murdered by her neighbor, one Jesse Timmendequas. So what? This happens every day, right? So we should throw up our hands and complain but do nothing, right? Wrong. The community was up in arms, since Timmendequas already had two previous convictions for sexually assaulting young girls. Everyone knew it was just a matter of time, but he was set free anyway. And sweet little Megan died because of it.

 

 

The subsequent outrage (and I mean OUTRAGE) over the senseless death of little Megan - which I helped raise money and awareness of (for full disclosure) - resulted in a national movement for what is today called "Megan's Law," which in short "requires law enforcement to disclose details relating to the location of registered sex offenders."

 

Why Megan Kanka? Why not any of the thousands of girls raped and killed by repeat offenders before her? W

 

Why Adam Walsh, and not any of the boys killed before him? Why? A good question.

 

Change has to start SOMEWHERE. It took enough murders to get to Megan Kanka before we pushed hard, and rolled like a Sherman tank over anyone in our way, to get Megan's Law passed. It took Adam's murder to push his father, John Walsh, into making a nationwide and very successful anti-crime show which solved dozens of cases. Sometimes the bad guys just go too far, and mess with the wrong good guys. The good guys use all their anger, all that pent up sorrow, and aim it OUT. Toward a goal, to make sure it doesn't happen again. The essence of social change. (The same also happens in reverse, of course. Social change isn't always good).

 

Why? Why the hell not? And if it turns out Z is innocent, this doesn't apply. And if it turns out he's guilty, well, maybe there will be a "Trayvon's Law" someday soon, or at the very least, a national conversation to take this out of abstract theory and into the reality of the street, to make sure it doesn't happen again, or at the VERY least, happens as rarely as humanly possible. A kid is dead. One is too many.

 

-MKL

[Ohio48]

James and I will always talk, rest assured.

 

 

But, I don;t talk to Ohio State or Michigan fans.

Tallman, We will talk real slow so you can keep up, Okay??? :)

[tallman]

Use plenty of small words.

[beemerman2k]

James and I will always talk, rest assured.

 

 

But, I don;t talk to Ohio State or Michigan fans.

Tallman, We will talk real slow so you can keep up, Okay??? :)

 

I talk to everyone here all the time. I dont let disagreements or divids take on more importance than it deserves. Let me tell you one thing i have learned, i need couterpoint. Need it! I grow most, my mind expands most, i learn most, from thise who see things differently than i do, and are not afraid to say so.

 

I would encourage all to embrace counterpoint. See if you can intelligently address it and all the challenges it raises.

 

My goal in launching this thread is to give our fertile minds a productive, yet unsolved problem to solve. Not just the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case, bt the issue of race that still divides our country. Lets see if we are up fir the challenge. If we are not, then i dont hold out much hope that the rest of the nation will be able to make any headway here.

 

Having said all that, come kick off time, a different round if debates ensue. If i recall, Huzband is going to launch this years college fotball thread. And wouldnt you know it but that the opener is Alabama v Michigan at Dallas, TX. Oooooo, i can feel it, baby!

[tallman]

Megan's case was truly horrible and plenty of good came from it.

 

But, Martin is about the gun, right?

Or is it now about the we've had enough, any child is too many,

we've had enough.

 

That too is part of my point.

Some don't want to say it is about race and look for another reason.

 

There very well may be one.

But comparing Megan to Trayvon is not about the gun

 

We have the Jessica Lunsford law requiring background checks of all employees and vendore as a result of a horrible crime.

Yes, sometimes it takes one spotlight, I agree.

 

So put the spotlight on the gun.

AFAIK Z was a licensed citizen and legally carrying.

Is it the gun?

Or the right to carry?

Is it training?

Or constitutinal rights?

 

In Megan's case it was, IMO, a failure of the legal system to deal with an evil person.

That doesn't compare to Z who was licensed and called 911.

 

But, your example makes one of my points. too many criminals, (not licensed citizens) commit too many crimes and have little, sometimes no consequences.

Again, focus on the gun, please, if that is the issue.

 

If horrible crimes are the criteria, why not the Anderson case?

 

 

Or, why not this one, about 6 miles from where Martin died?

Maybe it is about the hammer?

 

Or this horrible rape and shooting, married 65 years, community stalwarts, WWII paratrooper vet, wife died.

Oklahoma link

 

Is it about the horror factor, the weapon, the victim, or the criminal who commits the crime?

 

I want equal justice.

Right now that doesn't happen, $$$$, race, other factors.

 

So let's support equal justice for all, not just the media selected ones.

 

Back to, it is about the gun...

[Agent_Orange]

"I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus."

 

 

Much grass to The Firesign Theatre.

 

[tallman]

You can't get there from here...

[moshe_levy]

I don't know if it's about the gun. I'm waiting for the facts. That Z was legally licensed doesn't mean a hill of beans to me. In NJ I can be legally licensed to ride a Hayabusa after I take my state license test on an automatic 49cc scooter. The fact that I can do a 30 foot U-turn on a 49cc and I get a license, does not make me a proficient motorcyclist. It's nonsense.

 

-MKL

[Agent_Orange]

Some folks think they can.

[beemerman2k]

By the way, whether we agree and whether we are there for each other and are good friends are two distinctly separate issues as far as i am concerned. This is a discussion of agreement/disagreement that has nothing to do with friendship. Nothing whatsoever.

 

As far as i am concerned, if you are on this forum, you are my friend, even if we havent had the opportunity to hang out together yet!

[Bill1948]

Wow, am I tired. I spent the last couple of hours reading this thread. I agree with Beemerman in that it is good to bring out different viewpoints. I live in a 3,500 home gated retirement community and we would never allow our neighborhood watch to carry a gun. Our paid Security officers also do not carry guns. If Z felt threatened enough to shoot Martin, why could he not just wound him? Very sad.

[tallman]

Moshe,

Thanks.

So it sounds like you want a threshold for training?

OK, but I don't know what it accomplishes.

Criminals won't follow the law, lawful registrants

would have an additional hurdle.

If it solved something, who knows?

Regardless, facts will eventually become revealed.

 

James,

I feel that way to, and it often is, until someone meets me.

 

BTW, shooting to wound is a movie/tv fantasy.

Good friend, Gulf vet & the Stan is a LEO.

REcently attacked he fired 3 shots (he is a combat veteran/trained by military/law enforcement), under 15 feet, suspect moved/lunged as he charged, one shot hit in shoulder wounding crimnal.

But, that wasn't where he was aiming.

So if a highly trained combat veteran can miss, why would training

of civilians result in better outcomes?

(assuming wounding is better I guess)

[upflying]

Wow, am I tired. I spent the last couple of hours reading this thread. I agree with Beemerman in that it is good to bring out different viewpoints. I live in a 3,500 home gated retirement community and we would never allow our neighborhood watch to carry a gun. Our paid Security officers also do not carry guns. If Z felt threatened enough to shoot Martin, why could he not just wound him? Very sad.

Handgun training (if Zimmerman had any) trains you to shoot at "center mass". You are more likely to miss by shooting at an extremity. No firearm training that I know of teaches you to only wound someone.

Again a point of clarification but "neighborhood watch" is not a security guard. Some members of a neighborhood watch group could be armed...you just don't know it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neighborhood_watch

[moshe_levy]

 

First you said:

 

"Moshe,

Thanks.

So it sounds like you want a threshold for training?

OK, but I don't know what it accomplishes.

Criminals won't follow the law, lawful registrants

would have an additional hurdle.

If it solved something, who knows?"

 

Then you said:

Good friend, Gulf vet & the Stan is a LEO.

REcently attacked he fired 3 shots (he is a combat veteran/trained by military/law enforcement), under 15 feet, suspect moved/lunged as he charged, one shot hit in shoulder wounding crimnal.

But, that wasn't where he was aiming.

So if a highly trained combat veteran can miss, why would training

of civilians result in better outcomes?

(assuming wounding is better I guess)

 

So now training, which apparently doesn't mean that much, is viewed as an "additional hurdle?" To carry a gun that can wound or kill another human being? Oh, excuse me, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to impose ANY standards on anyone before they carry a lethal weapon. How silly of me. Standards (undoubtedly minimal ones at that) are a "hurdle" and training, apparently, doesn't mean anything anyhow.

 

We don't apply that laughable "standard" to becoming ANY profession which impacts public health, from butcher to nurse. And yet that is the so-called argument that is made in this case to carry a gun? Really? No wonder there is a divide.

 

-MKL

[Ken H.]

What I am asking myself is this, "are Patrick's sentiments what most everyone on the forum wants to say, but won't?"

I for one can answer definitely, absolutely no. To ignore the history race has and continues to be major factor in the USA is nothing more than blind denial.

[tallman]

Moshe,

You misunderstand.

The illusion of training providing a difference or change is waht I refer to.

No amount of training guarantees a certain outcome when it comes

to firing a gun at another person.

The hurdle I mention is comparing already law abiding citizens, citizens who register their weapons, go through a course (regardless of how it compares to police/military as that isn't the issue) get fingerprinted, provide a current photograph, and carry such license with them...

as opposed to criminals who do none of the above with a stolen weapon or black market purchase.

Another hurdle for those who are law abiding will do nothing to deter crimnal behavior, I think you will agree?

So, it is in that context I bring it up.

 

As far as killing or injuring another human being and training licensing?

Where to begin?

Driver license?

How many die in traffic accidents?

Doctors?

How many die in hospitals?

How about licensed pharmaceuticals?

Seen any data about drug overdosing and suicides by legal drugs lately?

How about legal taxed items, like cigarettes?

 

Is that the threshold, something that can kill or injure?

 

Come on.

 

Do you really think that every negligent death in medicine results in a loss of license?

Do you really think public health professionals who give bad advice are censured?

Do you think every lawyer adheres to the code of ethics?

Do you think every corporation stops production of products after they know it can cause death or injury? (Ford Pinto, for example)

How about drug trials where only favorable outcomes are reported?

You are an intelligent person, if you doubt any of this, check for yourself.

 

So, yes, we can add additional training. I'd like access to a shooting course when I wanted to and not just with the aegis of friendly LEO.

How about more shooting ranges?

We have way too few.

Can we build one in your neighborhood?

We can add classes on psychology of gun ownership and the aftermath of using a gun, taught by the finest psychologists/psychiatrists (who by the way are wrong more often than not when they try to predict likelihood of recidivism on parole boards, but maybe, they just don't have the right training).

How many crimes are the result of career criminals who return to society time after time and create more tragedies?

 

More training to carry a gun bring it on.

Give me the best ya got.

But then, let me have the right to public carry everywhere.

That's what the criminals do.

 

[Ken H.]

Cry me a river!

 

America is about opportunity, not entitlement.

Patrick, you paint a nice ideological painting where everyone is colour (and other differences for that matter) blind and race as a motivation in an action is never a factor, be it in violence of be it in opportunity; but that’s just not where the USA is at. Not yet. To say that the USA is equal for ______________ (fill in name of identifiable group here is just plain denial of the facts.

 

Instead of trying to pretend racism doesn’t exist in the USA, I think the country would be better served by first some admittance that it does, and then some serious dialog and soul searching about why it still does exist and what can be done about it.

 

[Huzband]

More training to carry a gun bring it on.

 

This is exactly why I shoot IDPA monthly. Great scenarios in a controlled environment. Excellent training for those that carry every day. You learn not only practice & pistol handling skills, but discretion as well. Discretion is probably the most important factor of carrying.

[tallman]

I guess it isn't just Americans who need training.

Pippa

 

Danny,

The availability, or lack thereof, for shooting opportunities is one that bears looking into.

Thanks.

[Huzband]

There is plenty of training opportunities available. Unfortunately, people of the Bill Cosby & Moshe Levy variety fail to see the advantages thereof.

 

Pippa's boyfriend is clearly an idiot. I mean, what is that? A .380? Everyone knows all that does is tick the assailant off.

[Ken H.]

I’m willing to say (but just barely) that we don’t know what was going on in either of their minds at the height of the moment, but did Z have to go and KILL the guy? Sure a trained anybody of any size can inflict great harm on another. But to pull a gun and shoot the man dead is just way over the top under the bottom IMHO. No matter what version as the truth comes out in the end.

 

 

About this hoodie thing, why doesn’t anybody seem to give consideration that rather than trying to be a poseur gangster, Martin was simply wearing a hoodie because it was raining? I’ve got several and they’re great.

 

 

Here’s what I think some are missing about James’ narrative on his experiences as a black man growing up in the USA – the continuousness of it all. Most any of us can sight instances where we have been prejudiced against for one stereotype or another. Too old, too young, too experienced, too inexperienced, too Jewish for my daughter, too Christian for my son, the list goes on and on. Few of us however can relate to the constant continues undercurrent of prejudice, and the slow impact that has, on a black male in America.

 

[tallman]

Ken,

Here is a short transcript from NPR (not exactly right wing).

In it 2 attorneys familiar with self defense and the SYG changes to Florida statutes provide a fairly succinct

history, explanation, and burdens to be met.

Worth reading IMO as many are confused between self defense rights and SYG.

link NPR and SYG in Florida

[upflying]

FATS is by far the best firearms training I've taken.

When viewing the video, keep in mind the female sheriffs deputy and suspect are actors on a large video screen in a darkened classroom. The LEO in training (the partner) is standing off screen and is armed with a handgun modified with a laser that is detected by the video projector. Technology allows instant changes in the video action depending on the type of weapon used and the accuracy of the shot.

Amazing stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ4UMvtmfg8&feature=related

[upflying]

. About this hoodie thing, why doesn’t anybody seem to give consideration that rather than trying to be a poseur gangster, Martin was simply wearing a hoodie because it was raining? I’ve got several and they’re great.

I wore a hoodie all winter long and I agree they are great.

However, never enter a bank or a convenience store while wearing sunglasses with the hood up.

 

[Huzband]

I'll just say this. Don't want to be profiled as a thug? Don't dress like one.

 

I'm not saying Z was profiling, but if TM was dressed as such, why would Z not be suspicious.?

[pmurphy]

One thing that seems to be missing in all this dialog is the fact that it is not an easy thing to attempt to take the life of another.

 

In a combat situation, there are many who will not be able to fire their weapon; Others will shoot in the air or in a direction that will not endanger the opposing force, in the hopes that the display of a eminent danger will be sufficient to stifle hostility.

 

Most of us were trained from birth, "Thou shall not kill". Possession of a firearm does not undo that training.