The Trayvon Martin Case

[beemerman2k]

What are your thoughts on this case that has gripped the nation? What do you think happened that evening? Was George Zimmerman out of line? Was Trayvon Martin out of line? Was this a tragic accident or a hate motivated killing? What about the, "Stand Your Ground" law? Should that law be on trial as well?

 

Like those NFL mini-quizzes just before a commercial, "you make the call". (For those of us who are not football fans, the call the spot is asking you to make is 1) was a penalty committed?, who commited the penalty?, and what was the penalty?). These are three good questions to frame this case with.

 

Important: since I am starting this thread, I get to set some rules.

 

1) Terms like "racist", "racism", or "hate" cannot be applied to anyone who posts thoughts in this thread! While these conditions of the heart grip us all (us ALL), we must be able to look past such characterizations and see the validity in everyone's point of view. I think people often hesitate to express themselves for fear of being so labelled, which does not serve anyone.

 

2) We all post to this thread keeping in mind that this is no game. A young life was lost, and another young life, one that volunteered his time to serve his community, is on the verge of being lost. No matter how you look at this, it is an American tragedy.

 

This case is going to be tried in a court of law, what would you like to see happen as a result of this trial?

[beemerman2k]

The other rule is that you cannot call me an idiot for posting this thread incorrectly. I am typing all this on my iPhone!

 

(sigh). I miss my iPad!

[Smoky]

Good luck keeping this non-political.

 

Only two people know what went on that day, and one of them is dead. What happened will be re-created in court with witness and forensic evidence.

 

Until then it's all speculation and hyperbole.

 

I know you intentions are well-meant, but I don't see how this can go anywhere but downhill.

[12R12RT]

I'm pretty much a Libertarian, politically. A staunch supporter of the 2nd Ammendment. A gun owner.

 

A Neighborhood Watch Captain patrolling the neighborhood, armed, is really questionable in my mind. Patrolling with a walkie-talkie or a cell phone seems appropriate, but to set him self up for a lethal confrontation (as a Neighborhood Watch person in a housing development affluent enough to have a HOA) just does not seem appropriate.

 

I really can't comment on whether it was a justifiable shooting, because I wasn't there and have only the media reports to go on as to what happened.

 

What really bothers me, though, is your question about whether or not the "Stand You Ground" law should be on trial, too.

 

When and if we lose our right to stand our ground, that will be a tragedy. I think that will be a very dark day in American history. Not having the right to stand your ground (and it doesn't exist in every state) becomes a "Duty to Retreat". That is:

 

Run Away! Run Away!

 

Tom

[Richard_D]

After the Casey Anthony trial I have lost faith in our justice system to a point. I hope this one goes better.

[MT Wallet]

Ok, I'll enter this minefield. I am a concealed cary permit holder and a gun enthusiast. When this story broke I was having lunch with some other cc guys and we all universally felt that the shooter, Zimmerman, had crossed the line when he "stalked" Trayvon. But as the facts have developed it turn out he did not stalk the young man, but in fact seems to have been returning to his truck or to the "mailboxes" where he had agreed to meet police. It changes my original opinion. We can only piece these facts together because no news organization that I know of has played the 4:00+ minute 911 tape unedited. We don't hear the fatal encounter with both Zimmerman and Trayvon. That, to my mind, is where it gets hazy. If Zimmerman was going back to his truck or the mailboxes how did he and Trayvon come together? Did Trayvon jump him? Did he stalk the kid? We need more facts! In any event it is an irreversible tragedy with too much sensationalism surrounding it..

[MT Wallet]

I forgot to mention HOA's. They don't have anything to do with affluence. I was in one in a community that spanned several ecomomic groups. I think the idea of Zimmerman living in a gated community with a HOA is just another attempt by media and others to fuel social dissention and whip up emotions.

[beemerman2k]

What's an HOA?

[beemerman2k]

I agree that we don't know much except for what the media tells us--which means we don't know much!

 

Therefore, all we can do is evaluate based upon a set of hypotheticals. So long as we are aware that we are standing on hypotheticals, and not fool ourselves into thinking we have the "truth", then our analysis can hold value in that we reinforce common understandings of the law, and of what constitutes proper behavior in situations like this.

 

In many ways, situations like this test our abilities to define and ask the right questions.

 

I would like to see the, "Stand Your Ground" law reevaluated. Not to necessarily do away with it more than to better define it. After the dust settled on this case, is anyone going to have confidence in this laws ability to defend them should it come to that?

[MT Wallet]

HOA ia a Home Owners Association as menitoned in Tom's post. I think your question regarding a carte blanc endorsement of a "stand your ground law" is reasonable to reevaluate. Do we need refinements?

Several months ago a jogger in Fla. shot and killed a young man either Black or Hispanic and the circumstances were more hazy-yet it didn't get the press play this story has. I have to wonder why.

[Mike]

I can't comment on the case, but it does seem to me that there's been a vast mischaracterization of "stand your ground" statutes. The self-defense statutes I've seen don't use this language, but in many instances states have done away with an affirmative requirement to attempt to flee a confrontation in which a person who is in imminent fear of wrongful death or great bodily harm.

 

This occurred as a result of a number of convictions in situations where an individual was found not to have exercised the option to escape. Sometimes the hypothetical option of escape which was seized upon by juries was preposterous. These statutes came into existence based, at least in part, on what were later seen as bad outcomes and not so much, as it has been characterized in the media, as an expression of machismo.

[Selden]

Good luck keeping this non-political.

 

Only two people know what went on that day, and one of them is dead. What happened will be re-created in court with witness and forensic evidence.

 

Until then it's all speculation and hyperbole.

My thoughts exactly. And, if the shooter hadn't been arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder, we wouldn't even get that information. I hope the trial will be less of a circus than the Casey Anthony case last year.

[RT66Rider]

I hope the trial will be less of a circus than the Casey Anthony case last year.

Too late, the media has already grabbed this story with both hands and is squeezing every dollar of entertainment value out of it that it can.

 

It's makes me sick to think that no one's privacy is protected in this country.

 

Not until there is a conviction should the identities of those involved be revealed.

How else can we protect the innocent from being publicly destroyed based solely on speculation.

And how on earth can the shooter in this case ever expect to get an unbiased jury to decide his fate. Impossible.

 

I hope that the case is thrown completely out of court and the media admonished for violating the integrity of a case for the sake of entertainment.

[12R12RT]

I do wonder about the "Stand your ground" issue in this case. It appears, from press reports, that both individuals were in a place that they were lawfully allowed to be.

 

A portion of the Florida law reads "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

 

It is reported that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman was the larger person.

 

Did Martin not have a right to stand his ground?

 

Tom

[Bob Foley]

I am afraid that the media and the legal system will mess this up big time. What I see as a bigger problem is the racial rioting that may take place after he is found not guilty.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

A portion of the Florida law reads "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

 

It is reported that Martin was unarmed and that Zimmerman was the larger person.

 

Did Martin not have a right to stand his ground?

 

Depends what he was up to. If he was in the process of assaulting Zimmerman (an unlawful activity), then according to your quoted material, no. Regarding the hand-to-hand combat leading up to the gunshot, there's a lot of contention as to which party was doing the assaulting and which party was doing the defending.

 

Zimmerman may have been the larger person, but anyone schooled in martial arts knows that it's still possible for a smaller person to inflict "great bodily harm."

 

In short: there are conceivable circumstances which would justify the use of deadly force by Zimmerman; it remains to be seen whether those circumstances were in effect that night.

[12R12RT]

One might wonder whose mind was more in 'assault mode'. The one with the Skittles going back to the house he was visiting, or the one patrolling with a CCW weapon. Tom

[moshe_levy]

I read an editorial recently which compared "Stand Your Ground" to the rules of engagement used by the armed forces, and concluded that a citizen under SYG has more legal justification to use deadly force than a soldier on the battlefield has given regs to keep civilian casualties to a minimum. I will try to find it - if that is so, it is obviously ridiculous to try to defense SYG as it stands today.

 

I cannot help but think back to the few "biker" type rallies I have been to. Lots of dog paddling U-tuns, lots of sloppy line choices around curves, lots of stalled bikes when starting uphill, and just a great deal of incompetence in general. And so I ask what SYG demands of its users in terms of training, in terms of psych evaluation, in terms of continually demonstrated competence, and so on. A "Neighborhood Watch Captain" isn't a LEO who has to prove his ability on a continual basis and has training in how to handle things professionally. Not that LEOs are perfect - far from it - but at least there's some training there.

 

It is a media circus, sure, but underneath it reveals a very ugly and deeply divisive side of American life, which this year is even more polarized than usual. It is disgusting to endure this type of environment. A kid was killed, and we have yet to hear a valid excuse as to why.

 

-MKL

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

One might wonder whose mind was more in 'assault mode'. The one with the Skittles going back to the house he was visiting, or the one patrolling with a CCW weapon. Tom

 

It sounds like you have some definite thoughts about what exactly took place that night. Per James' OP, I'd invite you to share those thoughts. I promise I won't bite your head off, even if I disagree with you.

[12R12RT]

I have no definite thoughts one way or another; I'm simply engaging in objective wondering.

 

As I said originally, "I really can't comment on whether it was a justifiable shooting, because I wasn't there and have only the media reports to go on as to what happened."

 

However, I do recognize:

 

"Objection - the question calls for hearsay"

 

"Sustained"

 

Tom

 

 

[MotorinLA]

Oh, where to start...

 

ONE

Carrying a firearm. Non-LEOs often ask me about carrying a concealed weapon. I tell them there are several questions they should ask themselves before they start carrying a firearm:

Why do you want to carry a gun?

When would you pull out your concealed gun (what circumstances)?

How do you plan to carry your gun?

And most importantly, ARE YOU ABLE AND WILLING TO SHOOT, AND POSSIBLY KILL SOMEONE, IF NECESSARY?

 

There are only a few correct answers to these questions and lots of incorrect answers.

 

I also remind them that if they carry a gun, there is ALWAYS at least one gun present wherever they go. This can easily escalate a situation from a mild confrontation to a deadly confrontation, as may have been the case with Martin and Zimmerman.

 

TWO

The family of someone who gets killed is often angry and generally biased as to the culpability of their relative.

 

THREE

The media is RIDICULOUS!!!

They frequently report news for the sake of controversy, not to keep the public informed of important events.

 

Case in point:

The picture posted of Treyvon Martin made it look like he was 12 years old, when in fact he was 17. He is described as "an innocent, sweet kid", who would never hurt anyone or do anything wrong. I've personally dealt with enough high school and college football players to question this statement.

 

The police did not arrest Zimmerman following the shooting. This is often followed by veiled statements to the effect that this is because Martin is black and all police are racists. I've was part of an investigation where gang members were killed by a rival gang and the family made lots of racial accusations against the police, because the victims were hispanic. They complained that the police were not doing enough to find the killer, despite the fact that the family had information about the suspect that they refused to provide to the police to help solve the crime.

 

Zimmerman stalked Martin and then killed him without just cause. Based on what evidence??? The fact that Zimmerman was not arrested suggests otherwise.

 

The media wants everyone to provide them with every possible piece of information about any and all events, even when such information is not available, or has to be withheld to conduct a criminal investigation. The media then often jump to cover-up conclusions and concoct all sorts of speculations about what really happened. They then take no responsibilty when their actions lead to events like riots and other people getting hurt. It is all in their pursuit of "the truth".

 

I'm sure the trial will be another media circus, followed by angry mobs if Zimmerman is found not guilty.

 

On the other hand, dead men tell no tales, so how much will we ever know of what really happened? All we will know is Zimmerman's version and whatever the physical evidence collected will support.

[upflying]

Opinions so far..

1. Zimmerman is a wanna be cop/crusader/good guy and made himself important by proclaiming himself Neighborhood Watch Captain

2. Trayvon provoked Zimmerman by intentionally portraying himself as suspicious to make a point about stereotypes

2. Zimmerman is a Latino

3. To placate tensions, the prosecutor over-charged Zimmerman with second degree murder

4. The jury will return a verdict of voluntary manslaughter

 

The criminal case is nothing compared to the civil lawsuit against the HOA and the City of Sanders..(sorry I forgot the name of the Florida city)

 

[longjohn]

I would not want my HOA hiring or using a volunteer neighborhood watch person with a gun. Bad friggin' idea. That HOA is really going to take it in the shorts.

 

We can thank ALEC for the SYG laws propagating throughout this country, along with laws that keep people of color from voting.

 

Coca Cola has withdrawn from ALEC bowing to pressure from Color of Change, and hopefully other corporations will soon do the same.

 

I predict the judge will throw out this case.

[beemerman2k]

I am afraid that the media and the legal system will mess this up big time. What I see as a bigger problem is the racial rioting that may take place after he is found not guilty.

 

I would think that there isn't going to be any rioting at this point. What made this case so upsetting to blacks (me included), was what appeared to be the cavalier attitude the City of Sanford seemed to have concerning the killing of Trayvon Martin. Now that there has been an arrest, and soon a trial, I would think this would satisfy the "lot of us" if I can put it that way. If George Zimmerman is found innocent of the charge and he walks, then there will be grumbling and angry Facebook posters, but I don't think there will be much beyond that.

 

I suppose the other reason I feel confident about this is the attitude being displayed by Trayvon Martin's mother. I thought it was very gracious of her to admit that her son was likely not murdered, but killed accidentally -- speaking to George Zimmerman's intent. People are going to respond in a like manner as Trayvon Martin's parents. If the parents feel justice was served -- whatever that means in this case -- everyone else will feel the same way.

 

Cases like this become such highly visible flash points because of both the history of blacks and law enforcement, but I think more importantly because it represents our worse nightmare. The thought that I can be going about my business, working hard and serving my family, that I can suddenly get gunned down by a law enforcement officer, and the assumption on the part of society will be that I must be guilty of something unless/until I am proven innocent is a highly frightening thought! It's a living nightmare! So when it appears to have happened, like in the OJ case , it attracts a high degree of attention in the black community.

 

In any case, it's a highly irrational and out of control fear on our part. The police save our collective butts all day everyday; they arrest people who commit crimes against us, they rescue us from crashed cars, they help us find our way in a community, they help kids get job and school opportunities, they help families get assistance -- the number of ways the police serve the black community are too numerous to count! Yet this image of being under constant scrutiny by these government officials still sticks, and the media seems to love fanning that flame, doesn't it?

[upflying]

I am afraid that the media and the legal system will mess this up big time. What I see as a bigger problem is the racial rioting that may take place after he is found not guilty.

 

I would think that there isn't going to be any rioting at this point. What made this case so upsetting to blacks (me included), was what appeared to be the cavalier attitude the City of Sanford seemed to have concerning the killing of Trayvon Martin. Now that there has been an arrest, and soon a trial, I would think this would satisfy the "lot of us" if I can put it that way. If George Zimmerman is found innocent of the charge and he walks, then there will be grumbling and angry Facebook posters, but I don't think there will be much beyond that.

 

I suppose the other reason I feel confident about this is the attitude being displayed by Trayvon Martin's mother. I thought it was very gracious of her to admit that her son was likely not murdered, but killed accidentally -- speaking to George Zimmerman's intent. People are going to respond in a like manner as Trayvon Martin's parents. If the parents feel justice was served -- whatever that means in this case -- everyone else will feel the same way.

 

Cases like this become such highly visible flash points because of both the history of blacks and law enforcement, but I think more importantly because it represents our worse nightmare. The thought that I can be going about my business, working hard and serving my family, that I can suddenly get gunned down by a law enforcement officer, and the assumption on the part of society will be that I must be guilty of something unless/until I am proven innocent is a highly frightening thought! It's a living nightmare! So when it appears to have happened, like in the OJ case , it attracts a high degree of attention in the black community.

 

In any case, it's a highly irrational and out of control fear on our part. The police save our collective butts all day everyday; they arrest people who commit crimes against us, they rescue us from crashed cars, they help us find our way in a community, they help kids get job and school opportunities, they help families get assistance -- the number of ways the police serve the black community are too numerous to count! Yet this image of being under constant scrutiny by these government officials still sticks, and the media seems to love fanning that flame, doesn't it?

Zimmerman was not nor was he ever a law enforcement officer. A neighborhood watch volunteer is not a law enforcement officer.

Please do not refer to Zimmerman as a LEO.

[Quinn]

As long as you brought up the OJ case; yes, I see some obvious parallels. People seem to be on either side of a very high fence and all they can see or hear is what is being said on their side of it. One side says he can't be a racist because he is hispanic; the other side says he's a "white" hispanic so that doesn't count. One side says Trayvon was 6'2" tall with tats and a hoodie, drug arrests, and a gangsta facebook presence; the other says he was a good kid just coming back from the store with skittles and keep showing his middle school pictures opposite Zimmerman's mugshots.

 

My personal, "reasonable man" theory is that Zimmerman was a little too full of himself. I doubt the HOA required, requested or even knew he was armed while patrolling the neighborhood. He had a concealed carry permit, meaning he had some training and knowledge of what limited rights that gave him, so it was a legal personal choice to be armed. I'd like to know if he was shadowing Trayvon from a distance or if he was confronting him. Also, who got in whose face? Then the biggie, did Zimmerman "fear for his life" ? Hopefully, facts will come out during a trial and people will accept the verdict as justice.

 

Now then, in the interest of full disclosure. I'm living in Durham, a few miles from the Duke Lacrosse scandal that brought us the Jessie Jackson, Rev. Sharpe traveling Circus one Summer. This makes me very, very wary of what I'm hearing. I won't be surprised if the case against Zimmerman collapses and the traveling Circus folds its tent quickly and disappears into the night looking for the next mob to get in front of. I won't be surprised, but I will be disappointed.

 

If I've skated too close to your guidelines, please just delete.

 

-----

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Zimmerman was not nor was he ever a law enforcement officer. A neighborhood watch volunteer is not a law enforcement officer.

Please do not refer to Zimmerman as a LEO.

 

I'm sorry, I did not meant to infer that Zimmerman was LEO. I was simply looking to see how a real professional, as opposed to George Zimmerman, would have handled this situation.

[beemerman2k]

Now then, in the interest of full disclosure. I'm living in Durham, a few miles from the Duke Lacrosse scandal that brought us the Jessie Jackson, Rev. Sharpe traveling Circus one Summer. This makes me very, very wary of what I'm hearing. I won't be surprised if the case against Zimmerman collapses and the traveling Circus folds its tent quickly and disappears into the night looking for the next mob to get in front of. I won't be surprised, but I will be disappointed.

 

When that case at Duke hit the news, I knew it was crap. I told my coworkers that the prostitute is doing what she does best, milk the system for all its worth. And eventually, the truth came out.

 

If I've skated too close to your guidelines, please just delete.

 

I don't even think you can see my guidelines from where you skated :smirk: You threw the bullsh!t flag at bullsh!t, nothing wrong about that!

[Powers77]

You ask what we think of this situation?

I think we all need to wait and hear what the facts of the case are as close as we will ever hear them.

There have been so many conflicting stories by both sides as they try to advance their political agenda that I don't know if we will ever come close to knowing the truth.

I suspect that Zimmerman allowed himself to get a bit to gung ho in his neighborhood watch duties. I suspect Trevon Martin probably reacted poorly to this gung ho activity and it turned physical. In the heat of the moment the young man lost his life.

If this IS how it basically happened IMHO Zimmerman does not deserve protection under the Stand Your Ground law as he created the situation.

For the record, I'm a CCW and very pro 2nd. But IMHO that comes with a big responsibility and if I CCW I'm looking for all other options before it comes to using my weapon.

Due to the politics involved I'm not as hopeful as Beemerman that this will end well. Too many political agendas to be satisfied and its an election year.

And by the way, I'm impressed by the civility and intelligence being displayed on this board in the discussion of this topic.

[upflying]

Stereotypically and generally speaking, all LEO's have met and had contact with people just like Zimmerman. They are the people with scanners and other police paraphernalia. They show up at crime scenes and accidents eager to help by asking a multitude of questions. They stalk and follow you around, doing their best to annoy you despite their best intentions. They get their jollies as being cop groupies and hanger-ons. They carry weapons and look for the just right and in their opinion, lawful chance to use it. They savor the limelight and lust for a commendation for doing a good job and ridding our communities of crime. Zimmerman felt the path to a LEO job was to become a hero and gain notoriety as a volunteer, unsanctioned security guard for his gated housing community.

Just an opinion but based on actual experiences.

[tallman]

James,

 

A few observations, living in Florida and having a CCW.

The old "duty to retreat", even in one's home, was preposterous.

The SYG law has been used in ways not intended, for example a gang related shootout.

 

Trayvon was 6'2" tall and @150ish.

Zimmerman 5'9" and 50 pounds lighter than in the mug shot the media used, so probably 160ish.

Sadly the media portrayed both individuals in a manner to create the best/worst impression.

 

The new term, white/hispanic, is disingenuous and intentionally inflamatory.

President Obama, using the new Census guidelines, chose to call himself black, not white/black.

Zimmerman was raised as, and considers himself to be hispanic.

 

A college student, a drum major at FAMU (Florida Agricultural & Mechanical University) perhaps the most reknowned historically black college/university, a memeber of the World Famous Marching 100 band, died as a result of the beating he received in November.

The beating was part of an on-going pattern of hazing that spans decades and is illegal.

The beating was done by, and in front of, band members on a bus.

They know who did what because they all were there.

The victim, Robert Champion, died outside the bus and little if anything was done to save him.

Not that it matters, but the victim was also gay.

Hate crime?

Conspiracy?

Cover-up?

To date, no charges have been filed, no arrests made.

The band director, Univeristy President, faculty etc. knew of the continuing pattern of brutality and hazing.

Two university faculty members participated in other hazing/beatings.

Dozens, perhaps hundreds, of e-mails/letters to the Prez went basically ignored (before this student was killed).

 

My point?

The media storm, invasion of the usual suspects/talking heads/Sharpton etc wrt the Martin death, is interesting.

Where were they when Robert Champion, someone who was never in trouble, an exemplary student and community member, a youth who had his life taken away by his peers, under the aegis of a state university program that was known to allow hazing...

where were all these folks, where are they now?

 

This tragedy, clearly not a SYG issue, is clearly a form of murder

(the beating was intentional and premeditated) and

begs for national attention, begs for the same support of the dead person that we see in the Martin case.

I wonder why they chose to invest their time and energy in one case, but not the other?

 

I think 2nd degree is a stretch, this is a tough prosecutor (sent by governor), and perhaps they are using this tactic to try for a manslaughter conviction.

Will be difficult to empanel an unbiased jury.

 

The only eyewitness I have seen on tv stated that the guy in red (Zimmerman) was on the bottom of the fight.

 

I will be surprised if anyone likes the outcome in this case.

[beemerman2k]

I will be surprised if anyone likes the outcome in this case.

 

Tough crowd.

 

I expect most people are pleased that there has been an arrest and a trial. If the trial doesn't lead to a conviction, I can see the SYG law coming under all manner of pressure, but I think the city of Sanford and the State of Florida are off the hook in the minds of black folks. How well Mr Zimmerman is able to blend into society depends upon how Trayvon Martins parents feel about the trial. If they feel they were heard, then I expect this will all pass.

 

Having said that, I wouldn't want to own a street level television store in downtown Sanford on the day that the verdict is read :smirk:

 

That case at FAMU hasn't generated outrage for the following reasons (among others):

 

- the killer(s) were black, and therefore both victim and perp are viewed as being on the same level withou no significant unfair advantages (perceived)

 

- it represents no danger to others: Zimmerman represents the idea that there are no consequences to bear when a white (non black) man kills a black man, therefore the case has the attention of every black man

 

- as a community, we need as many college grads as e can get, so we're in no hurry to lock up any future leaders!

 

- this victims parents aren't as vocal as Trayvon Martins were in attracting attention to the case.

[hANNAbONE]

...fOR tHE lIFE of me...I don't understand why this shooting is soooooooooo different any other shooting. Hec, there are young folks being shot every day - multiple times a day/night just up the road in Cincinnati.

 

Drive-By and hold ups...even a 4 year old was hit by a stray bullet here this week.

 

I haven't seen Sharpton or Jackson or Black Panthers or any of the others here on local turf.

 

I am confused and on why this shooting is so important....shouldn't they ALL be important..?

[beemerman2k]

...fOR tHE lIFE of me...I don't understand why this shooting is soooooooooo different any other shooting. Hec, there are young folks being shot every day - multiple times a day/night just up the road in Cincinnati.

 

Drive-By and hold ups...even a 4 year old was hit by a stray bullet here this week.

 

I haven't seen Sharpton or Jackson or Black Panthers or any of the others here on local turf.

 

I am confused and on why this shooting is so important....shouldn't they ALL be important..?

 

Here is the most direct way I can address your questions. Remember that passage in the Bible where Jesus says, "Why do you look at the speck in your brothers eye, yet pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?...You hypocrites! First take the plank from your own eye, then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye." - Matthew 7:3,5

 

Because black people, like everyone else, tend to ignore the plank in our own eye and instead focus in the speck (hints of what might possibly be racism) in our brothers eye.

 

If I had it my way, that quote above would be the theme of any dreams of a national conversation on race. Before you can participate, you must first resolve to remove the plank from your own eye. If you are not committed to doing that, or worse yet, if you don't think you have any planks that need removing, then you are disqualified from participation in the conversation. In fact, asking for help to remove your own plank would have to be the first conversation everyone must engage in.

 

Then we can discuss how we all might be able to cleanse ourselves of our respective specks. Somehow, I have a hunch, that once we become aware of our own planks, we won't be in such a mood to dwell on anyone else's specks. :smirk:

 

 

Btw: this is not intended as a criticism of black people, this is intended as a criticism of all people! But in the context of your question, John, the shoe definitely fits on the feet of your black brothren as well.

[tallman]

James,

 

The Marching 100 band is integrated, not all black.

There have been consequences for others.

 

These students are supposed to be the creme de la creme of minority college students. FAMU often out recruits Harvard for

top ranking minority HS grads.

 

Martin's mom has already gone on record as stating she thought it was an "accident", that Zimmerman did not intend to...

like I said, tough to convict.

 

The reason I say no one will like the verdict is simply because of the amount of media mis/disinformation already out there.

Doctored 911 tape, "white/hispanic", out of date photos for both

individuals, the rush to arrest (particularly compare to Robert Champion case, remember, that was November, we know who was on the bus, where it was, and when it happened, yet no arrests).

 

Convicted, found not guilty, or case dismissed (not likely), due to the polarization created by the media, many will feel that the outcome was manipulated by the media storm.

 

[beemerman2k]

For this reason (we all have planks in our eyes, etc), I would like to see terms like "racism" and "racist" socially banned from our social discourse. It's fair to say, that person/policy/institution unfairly treats a certain category of people, it's not so OK to say, that person/policy/institution is racist. Terms like "racist" suggest a "My eyes are free of planks/your eyes are not" model in my own 2 cents opinion. These "models" further blind us to how we ourselves contribute to our own problems.

 

No, a better and more healthy model is one that says, "we all have planks or none of us have planks", and therefore accusational terms such as "racist" really have no place in our public discourse. You want change, you gather enough social momentum to enact that change, but you do so as one people, not as a divided people. This would be my ideal of America.

[beemerman2k]

Tim, I stated why I thought the FAMU case is not in the radar. Other than those reasons, why do you think it doesn't get the attention it deserves?

 

One could easily argue that this is a classic case of the "plank" goIng ignored, and it may well be. Given the elite status of that institution, I would also add that most black Americans feel as far removed from that world as they do from the lifestyle of the Rich and Famous! That fact also adds to the lack of involvement as well.

[upflying]

I predict the judge will throw out this case.

Especially without the murder weapon. If the biased and distorted media reports can be trusted, I heard the gun was returned to Zimmerman by Sanford police.

If true, this defies logic.

[tallman]

Tim, I stated why I thought the FAMU case is not in the radar. Other than those reasons, why do you think it doesn't get the attention it deserves?

 

One could easily argue that this is a classic case of the "plank" goIng ignored, and it may well be. Given the elite status of that institution, I would also add that most black Americans feel as far removed from that world as they do from the lifestyle of the Rich and Famous! That fact also adds to the lack of involvement as well.

 

 

So, the life of one person is worth more than another person?

 

Or, more direct and probably going to get me flamed, the life of one black male is more worthy, at least newsworthy,

than another, because the person responsible for the death was/wasn't black?

 

That, IMO, is a rather slanted way to see life (not you, James) wrt the Revs Sharpton/Jackson/talking heads

and speaks loudly to race relations in our country, again, IMO.

 

 

An aside, James, FAMU is also among the largest recipients of aid/grant money for students.

Few of them come from backgrounds I would call elite.

 

Why do I think the difference in coverage is so acute?

Because the death of a talented, gay, black, college student, by the hands (literally) of his contemporaries

isn't what Al and Jesse want to talk about.

[beemerman2k]

Why do I think the difference in coverage is so acute?

Because the death of a talented, gay, black, college student, by the hands (literally) of his contemporaries

isn't what Al and Jesse want to talk about.

 

In that sense, you're looking at the same thing Hannabone sees. This is a plank in the eye of the black community, so no one really wants to talk about it.

 

Hey, we're here to discuss your planks! Dont change the subject! Then again, do we really have time to delve into Tim's planks?

[upflying]

Zimmerman represents the idea that there are no consequences to bear when a white (non black) man kills a black man, therefore the case has the attention of every black man

Zimmerman is a Latino.

[Nice n Easy Rider]

Zimmerman represents the idea that there are no consequences to bear when a white (non black) man kills a black man, therefore the case has the attention of every black man

Zimmerman is a Latino.

Well, with the seemingly indifferent attitude of the younger generation to inter-racial marriages hopefully, before most of us leave this earth, we won't be referring to folks as black, or white, or Latino. Perhaps not even as Americans but simply as people. (About 15 percent of all new marriages in the US in 2010 were between spouses of different race or ethnicity, according to a Pew Center report. In 1980 it was 6.7 percent.)

I would like to be at least somewhat differentiated from some of the other species although I've probably been lumped in one of those categories on an occasion or two - or three..

[upflying]

Zimmerman represents the idea that there are no consequences to bear when a white (non black) man kills a black man, therefore the case has the attention of every black man

Zimmerman is a Latino.

Well, with the seemingly indifferent attitude of the younger generation to inter-racial marriages hopefully, before most of us leave this earth, we won't be referring to folks as black, or white, or Latino. Perhaps not even as Americans but simply as people. (About 15 percent of all new marriages in the US in 2010 were between spouses of different race or ethnicity, according to a Pew Center report. In 1980 it was 6.7 percent.)

I would like to be at least somewhat differentiated from some of the other species although I've probably been lumped in one of those categories on an occasion or two - or three..

That's nice philosophical sentiment George. My point is the Zimmerman/Martin case broke out in the media as white on black crime. It's not.

[pbharvey]

 

Why do I think the difference in coverage is so acute?

Because the death of a talented, gay, black, college student, by the hands (literally) of his contemporaries

isn't what Al and Jesse want to talk about.

 

moderator edit: this post is in violation of our "no politics" rule.

 

- beemerman2k

 

[Quinn]

 

moderator edit: this post is in violation of our "no politics" rule.

 

- beemerman2k

 

 

My return sound bite would be, "And would your son be out at night thumping on a Latino Barney Fife?"

 

Sound bites really aren't useful. Don't get me started on the hoodie hoopla.

 

-----

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Woah fellas! We are heading down that sewer we were predicted to end up in earlier in this thread!!!

 

Let's not forget the "no politics" rules that govern this web forum!

 

Please, no more references to politicians!!!!!

 

 

It's really not necessary to sound off anyhow. As we make progress among us and come to agree on what is acceptable behavior, we all have the capability to apply what we have learned on the American landscape.

 

Our job here is NOT to amplify the same fires being stoked by the media

[pbharvey]

Woah fellas! We are heading down that sewer we were predicted to end up in earlier in this thread!!!

 

Let's not forget the "no politics" rules that govern this web forum!

 

Please, no more references to politicians!!!!!

 

 

It's really not necessary to sound off anyhow. As we make progress among us and come to agree on what is acceptable behavior, we all have the capability to apply what we have learned on the American landscape.

 

Our job here is NOT to amplify the same fires being stoked by the media

 

 

OK...here goes nothing

 

I expect the media to jack things up so they can get a story.

 

I expect politicians to enforce the law of the land without prejudice.

[tallman]

Exactly.

 

Look at the facts.

Make a decision, bring charges, grand jury, or just say no not enough

to go forward.

Hopefully justice is done, although we know there have been many cases where it was not.

 

The media has become the genie, out of the bottle, and no way to put it back in again.

 

Hard to have faith in a system where media with agenda driven "reporting" has already determined what should happen.

 

This case is sort of the antithesis of complaints/comments about Amber alerts and how race determines the priority of the alert and effort expended.

 

 

[Jaguar]

Like everyone else, I have an opinion on this whole mess. One thing that's got me amped is everyone, including our Governor saying it's now time to take a look at our "stand your ground law". As an armed Florida resident and owner of a concealed carry license, there is nothing wrong with the Florida stand your ground law, the way it is written. We have one person who interpreted that law his own way and now the system will decide weather that interpretation was legal or not. No need to rewrite laws.

[tallman]

Agreed.

 

Despite other cases where it was used (gang related shootouts)

no outcry to reconsider the law from the public.