The Trayvon Martin Case

[RTJohn]

Taking a chance on this one...from what I've seen and heard so far, Z overstepped his bounds when he persisted in following TM instead of waiting for LEO to arrive. TM was concerned about being followed home. He confronted Z and punched him. (TM was about 6-1 and 170 lbs, not a little guy) I think Z panicked when TM started hitting him after knocking him down, he pulled his sidearm and fired up...I doubt aim was a factor. I know, I know...so much BS. And you're correct it's merely my opinion based on nothing. Just offering it up as merely my opinion.

[tallman]

And some might say, the First Amendment clauses wrt establishing a religion (federal aid to religious schools etc) and the right to peaceably assemble have seen quite a few changes since written.

Do some research on federal funding to private religious schools, use of public transportation for private religious groups etc.

Plenty of cases out there where it happens.

(Not saying I'm for or against, just noting...)

Many jurisdictions where displays such as Christmas/Easter/10 Commandments/Menorahs are prohibited, yet in the same state state/federal monies flow to schools/groups that advocate or support a religion that utilizes the banned displays.

 

The Second Amendment clause "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infinged" has changed, IMO.

Some states have made it very difficult for the public to bear arms, particularly in public.

 

So the First Amendment right our ancestors had to express themself in public is intact, yet the same right they had to walk down the road bearing arms has been infinged upon.

 

I guess you're either saying we don't need to be concerned with "the security of a free state" as our militia (National Guard)

has that covered?

Or the public should not have the right to keep and bear arms, regardless?

Or something else?

 

Remember, no matter what laws, restrictions, tests, training, standards, etc are put in place wrt gun ownership, only law abiding citizens will comply.

Criminals do not, nor have they ever done so.

 

So, who is it you're trying to affect?

[Ohio48]

Taking a chance on this one...from what I've seen and heard so far, Z overstepped his bounds when he persisted in following TM instead of waiting for LEO to arrive. TM was concerned about being followed home. He confronted Z and punched him. (TM was about 6-1 and 170 lbs, not a little guy) I think Z panicked when TM started hitting him after knocking him down, he pulled his sidearm and fired up...I doubt aim was a factor. I know, I know...so much BS. And you're correct it's merely my opinion based on nothing. Just offering it up as merely my opinion.

 

So other then not following him, what should of he done when TM was beating him up, just lay there and take it. I mean just following a person does not open you up for a beating, does it???

[moshe_levy]

Tim-

 

Re your 1st Amendment issue with religion, I wholeheartedly agree. Were it me in charge, you would see the separation between church and state in the shape of a 10 foot thick 2 mile high electrified piece of premium grade steel. Some don't see it that way, and that's obvious this year especially. But I agree with you there.

 

WRT to the 2nd Amendment as I understand it the original intent was to keep a well armed citizenry as a safeguard against the threat of government tyranny - at least, that's one of the main intentions. And in the days of muskets and early rifles and pistols being shared between citizens (hunters, militia, etc.) and soldiers, that argument had play. In today's world of your little pistols and rifles and such on the citizen's side, and state of the art weaponry, nukes, drones and such on the government's side, it's an absurd argument, and taking it literally to me is the same as taking the bible literally. There are people who do that, sure - perhaps to these people the average citizen should hold a nuclear bomb and a drone and a surface to air missile to defend himself against his own government, just to make the fight somewhat fair. Today I think it would take a total suspension of reality to think that you can defend yourself - truly defend yourself - against the most powerful, well funded army in the history of the world, if they came for you. Perhaps it's a scary thought, ideologically. But the fact remains - you have less than a snowball's chance in hell. (Take it from me, I display our products at military trade shows, and see the weapons systems firsthand).

 

The issue goes beyond Constitutional theory and yes, I do believe a good deal of regulation should be required of the average citizen before he can hold a weapon that takes another's life, just like Megan's Law sprang up in response to the lack of common sense that allows convicted criminals to roam free again near children. Background checks, denial of permit for those with history of criminal behavior, continual annual training in use and safety - AT LEAST.

 

I understand your theory about only law abiders having to comply. That, to me, demonstates proficiency. Did you know that over 80% of motorcycles stolen for joy rides are crashed within 5 miles? The criminals don't know how to ride, because they're not trained to. A trained motorcyclist does know how to ride. The same should apply here. The standard to use force to take life should be no less rigorous than the high standards we impose on professionals to save lives. That is my view of a healthy culture where life is worth more than lip service to dogmatic ideology. This is a contentious issue. We have yet to see if it applies in this specific case.

 

-MKL

[tallman]

Moshe,

About that governmental superiority wrt weaponry.

I have 3 words.

Ok more than 3...

American Revolution

Vietnam

Afghanistan (USSR)

Afghanistan (USA)

 

weaponry advantage, yes, but remember, it takes a soldier to have an army.

 

If the shiite every hit the fan, I would think American soldiers would have a very difficult time shooting other American citizens

particularly if they (the soldiers) shared a common ideology wrt that government.

Also, one might conjecture that the militia (National Guard) could make a dent in the leadership (cut off the head) of the government using weapons supplied to them.

Hope we never see that day.

 

What has changed wrt the constitution is the concept of judicial review. That power allows a small body of individual to dictate law/public policy etc wrt the entire country and every citizen.

Some might say that is not at all what the founders intended and an example of change far greater than any relating to first/second amendments.

[moshe_levy]

Tim, I will not comment on the prospect of ordinary citizens fighting the US Armed Forces and what they means or would entail. I think I've been clear on my position on that issue as someone who deals regularly in US military weapons systems.

 

WRT to review, some indeed might say it falls outside original intention, but I have no idea what they would base that viewpoint on. Given human history, what sort of person could seriously expect every single citizen to interpret a document as deep and complex as the Constitution unanimously? When has that ever happened, and who seriously thinks it is possible, whether taken as a "literal" interpretation or as a "living document?" Look at religion for example - literal, or living document? That's since the dawn of time. It's a fantasy to even suggest no review be necessary and that everyone is expected to have this monolithic viewpoint that never changes or is never challenged.

 

-MKL

[MT Wallet]

Tim-

 

Re your 1st Amendment issue with religion, I wholeheartedly agree. Were it me in charge, you would see the separation between church and state in the shape of a 10 foot thick 2 mile high electrified piece of premium grade steel. Some don't see it that way, and that's obvious this year especially. But I agree with you there.

 

WRT to the 2nd Amendment as I understand it the original intent was to keep a well armed citizenry as a safeguard against the threat of government tyranny - at least, that's one of the main intentions. And in the days of muskets and early rifles and pistols being shared between citizens (hunters, militia, etc.) and soldiers, that argument had play. In today's world of your little pistols and rifles and such on the citizen's side, and state of the art weaponry, nukes, drones and such on the government's side, it's an absurd argument, and taking it literally to me is the same as taking the bible literally. There are people who do that, sure - perhaps to these people the average citizen should hold a nuclear bomb and a drone and a surface to air missile to defend himself against his own government, just to make the fight somewhat fair. Today I think it would take a total suspension of reality to think that you can defend yourself - truly defend yourself - against the most powerful, well funded army in the history of the world, if they came for you. Perhaps it's a scary thought, ideologically. But the fact remains - you have less than a snowball's chance in hell. (Take it from me, I display our products at military trade shows, and see the weapons systems firsthand).

 

The issue goes beyond Constitutional theory and yes, I do believe a good deal of regulation should be required of the average citizen before he can hold a weapon that takes another's life, just like Megan's Law sprang up in response to the lack of common sense that allows convicted criminals to roam free again near children. Background checks, denial of permit for those with history of criminal behavior, continual annual training in use and safety - AT LEAST.

 

I understand your theory about only law abiders having to comply. That, to me, demonstates proficiency. Did you know that over 80% of motorcycles stolen for joy rides are crashed within 5 miles? The criminals don't know how to ride, because they're not trained to. A trained motorcyclist does know how to ride. The same should apply here. The standard to use force to take life should be no less rigorous than the high standards we impose on professionals to save lives. That is my view of a healthy culture where life is worth more than lip service to dogmatic ideology. This is a contentious issue. We have yet to see if it applies in this specific case.

 

-MKL

I'm sorry to have to say you viewpoint on firearms and concealed carry weapons is an irrational load. Your 1st amendment thought are equally as irrational and radical.

As I've stated here I have a concealed carry permit. I don't feel the need to carry a gun to defend against 2 legged predators only the 4 legged kind. So I rarely have the weapon on me. BUT..I have the right and I chose to exercise that right to have, own and carry a gun. Not only was the 2nd amendment considered for defense against the tyranny of govenment but the marauding bands of robbers, indians and foreign enemies who might pose a threat to the citizenry. Our forefathers realized that then, much like today, the citizen would be on their own in care of trouble. You only want cops to be armed. Cops can't be everywhere and they can't be "johnny on the spot" at a crucial time when you want them. You are left on your own. You viewpoint is myopic. I don't want to open a can of worms here so I'll gingerly dance around this one. Go down the hall and ask your dad if he knew anyone in Isreal that carried a gun for protection that wasn't actively serving in the IDF. Perhaps a "settler" or someone like that. Was it justified? If it was, why then is it not justified in your mind here? I know you have concerns about training but to put it in perspective: I just downloaded the N.D. Concealed Carry manual for the CCW test it's 51 pages. We are considered to have a less restrictive law than most other states---51 pages none the less. One has to take a test and if applying for a Class 1 permit one has to show profiecy with the/a weapon. No amount of training will give a person "common sense" in the use of the weapon if they don't have it.

As for religion, our forfathers didn't wish to limit it only to prevent the state from establishing one as a state religion like the Church of England. The terms "seperation of church and state" is a court derived language of recent orgin. It's application have been greatly expanded since the 1950's.

[moshe_levy]

Rich, like I said, there is no chance of us really agreeing with each other 100% and the topic itself is veering. If the topic is Zimmerman, the facts are not yet clear. If indeed he acted properly than the 2ns Amendment isn't an issue here for anyone to argue about in the first place.

 

-MKL

 

PS To compare gun laws in Israel in 1945 to America today, I think, would be a futile exercise. Do you really want to compare your situation as a modern American citizen to the first Israeli settlers surrounded on all sides by hostile forces? Really?

[MT Wallet]

I thought your folks came here in the 60's-(inference from a months old post) that was why I asked. Yes '45' was quite different than say '64'. However, "settlers" still carry on a daily basis today. Do they not?

 

On another note. Can anyone from the Fla. crew tell us about the neighborhood where the two, GZ and TM came from? Is it like Overtown or is it less ethnically polarized? Knowing this may tell us something about both men's state of mind. I could assume that a community that needed a neighborhood watch had preexisting crime issues. Can anyone clarify this?

[MT Wallet]

I'll jump back in the race discussion. If I were to, for the sake of discussion, come to this planet and try to get a sense of the people here in the U.S. I'd have limited exposure to people and I'd probably get my information from the TV and the Newspaper or even the radio. What would I hear? I'd hear negative things about blacks, Mexicans, Indians (feather not dot) and, depending on the day, whites. That information would taint my 1st interaction with the folks I encountered and the impressions I formulated. Now, having made that observation, I am confident to say that unless we know people in other racial groups that do not conform to those opinions our prejudices are formed by the media. Damn shame that it is.

When I lived outside Detroit the TV stations led with the most shocking and horrible news of crimes from a city that was 80% Black. Carjacking, murder, drive by shooting, child rape, muggings mostly in the Black community and mostly aginst other Blacks and occasionally whites. This wasn't well specified. But the impression was Predators vs. prey.One only had the impression the community was ALL thugs. If I hadn't known better I'd have thought ALL Blacks were horrible vile people and formulated a theory about their character and by inference all Blacks in general which simply isn't so. How does the Black community perceive whites and how does this impression formulate? Is it the constant drum beat of hearing there is Black victimization by whites and all others that drives the beliefs of the community and why is this so accepted? Anyone have an idea? Not every white listens to the spew of the KKK nor every Black that of Louis Farakan. So what gives?

[moshe_levy]

Is it the constant drum beat of hearing there is Black victimization by whites and all others that drives the beliefs of the community and why is this so accepted? Anyone have an idea? Not every white listens to the spew of the KKK nor every Black that of Louis Farakan. So what gives?

 

This is a very complicated subject with many, many facets. As such, it will be dominated by public figures who specialize in "simplifying" it to the point of "us vs. them," because that's effective.

 

The media? What is that, anyway? The whipping boy we use to blame everything on, but what is it really? Is it Fox News, or MSNBC? Mother Jones magazine, or National Review? Is it the New York Times, or the Wall Street Journal? So many flavors out there, and you can drink from whichever fountain you like. Because of cognitive dissonance, we mostly prefer to drink from the fountains that don't challenge, but rather reinforce, our existing beliefs. Right, or wrong - it's EASIER to live in an echo chamber where everyone agrees with you and anyone who doesn't, must be crazy. This is what leads to polarization, which is what we have now.

 

We have a bad economy. People are hurting and their prospects are dim. They're looking for someone to blame, and it's not themselves most of the time. The 1%. The welfare queens. The bottom 50%. The Blacks. The Jews. The Whites. Whatever. It's EASIER to say "It's THEIR fault I'm in a rut." Don't discount the pocketbook - search back through history and you will see it is how the worst tyrants came to power.

 

We have history. It matters. It matters ALOT. It is a bubble through which "Get Over It!" may not penetrate, nor should it in certain cases if we are to learn from the past.

 

We have experience. Maybe a Jew murdered my whole family. Maybe an Indian saved my life. Maybe a black doctor delivered my baby perfectly. It's EASY to judge a group by one individual - much harder to reserve judgement until you get to know each person as his or her own entity.

 

I think I could go on for a novel. There are so many factors. And there is no little patience to consider them all, because that's NOT easy. People gravitate toward what is easy, and ignore the sage advice: "The hard road, is the easy road. The easy road, is the hard road." Ignore this at your own peril.

 

-MKL

[MT Wallet]

I was and am trying to stimulate a dialog here. When I say Media I shall clarify that I am referring to the local news media as was clear in my example. In the case I cited it was Detroit-not the Mother Jones magazine.

I am looking for a response from James or other Black participant in this conversation. I don't think white guys are going to be able to tell us where the racism in the Black community originates from or how it is perpetuated.

[beemerman2k]

I am looking for a response from James or other Black participant in this conversation. I don't think white guys are going to be able to tell us where the racism in the Black community originates from or how it is perpetuated.

 

I have been thinking alot about this question myself of late. Our unique stories made us predisposed to see this tragedy in Florida from different perspectives. How much of our personal stories are from actual experiences and how much from "programming" -- family values and passed down knowledge, social messages (schools, playgrounds, etc), and the media (television, nowadays Facebook, etc)?

 

In any case, we are going to have to be sincerely willing to examine our stories if we want to be able to be a part of the solution.

[upflying]

I am looking for a response from James or other Black participant in this conversation. I don't think white guys are going to be able to tell us where the racism in the Black community originates from or how it is perpetuated.

 

I have been thinking alot about this question myself of late. Our unique stories made us predisposed to see this tragedy in Florida from different perspectives. How much of our personal stories are from actual experiences and how much from "programming" -- family values and passed down knowledge, social messages (schools, playgrounds, etc), and the media (television, nowadays Facebook, etc)?

 

In any case, we are going to have to be sincerely willing to examine our stories if we want to be able to be a part of the solution.

 

Due to cultural background imprinting, Martin perceives Zimmerman as a crazy crackerhead and the two begin to stand their ground. We know what happens next.

 

I think I summarized b2k's answer well way back on page 8.

 

 

[MT Wallet]

Bob I had to go pretty far back to find your post. Well put. When, where and how does the imprinting start? How do we contribute to breaking the "victim" cycle that is so pervasive? No one is born with a set of preconceived notions. We're all little blank slates in the beginning. I know in one of your posts you mention James daughters will lead by example, but they are only 2 examples in a very large pool of people and their actions will have limited influence. What role should community leaders have in preventing another Martin, Zimmerman incident? Just thinking out loud.I haven't seen much that society has done to date that has turned this around.

[RTJohn]

Once the beating started TM had gone too far. He had no right or reason to hit Z. In the sense that Z was now actually defending himself, you can see why he claims self defence. If only he hadn't put himself in that position in the first place he wouldn't be in jail and TM wouldn't be dead.

[upflying]

Rich, an answer to your question would be like the cure for cancer. Regrettably, no one can prevent a Zimmerman/Martin incident from happening again. We all are members of the human race but God bestowed on us physical differences. Besides physical, humans further intensify their differences through mannerisms, clothing, religion, sexual preference, obesity, age, disabilities, education, income, gender and age.

Children are born to parents who teach them their morals and values. Imprinting starts with the parents and is then reinforced by TV, movies, internet, social media, music, schools, government entitlements, peer groups and a plethora of other sources.

Perceived injustices such as Rodney King, Johannes Mehserle and pontifications by Jeremiah Wright, Black Panthers, Louis Farrakhan, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson fan the flames in support of a racially divided America.

Two weeks ago I was accused of being a racist for writing a parking ticket. Although I have grown a thick crust to deflect such ignorance, it still hurts and shows we still have a long way to go. Never once in my long career have I ever displayed or shown racist tendencies or attitudes. I am simply condemned by the color of my skin that I must be a racist.

It saddens me greatly when I encounter small children with their parents and they are frightened out of their wits at the mere sight of me in uniform.

It saddens me greatly when media reporting of the Trayvon incident was distorted for the benefit of fanning the flames of hatred.

I am perplexed why Latino and Hispanic civil rights groups have not emerged in support of Zimmerman's position. Isn't Zimmerman also a victim of racial oppression?

Every one of the Seven Deadly Sins are present in this conflict. History repeats itself and will continue to do so. Forgive my pessimism but cops become very cynical.

My position in this case remains neutral, I wasn't there to judge. A jury of 12 will eventually represent all of us.

[Quinn]

What is bothering me most now is the self-appointed "Black Leadership". Where are they leading their followers and why is the media giving them validity? I know of several pot stirring campaigns that ended up with Jessis Jackson and Al Shapton folding their tents and sneeking off into the night when the facts came out. Having cried "wolf" or "whitey" so many times, why is anyone still listening to them? Especially, why is the media giving them a forum?

 

Also, and only semi-related, how are they making enough money off of this behavior to continue? Are their followers donating to the "cause?" Are corporations buying them off by giving them money to be consultants? Are they suing governments, corportations, and idividuals and settling out of court?

 

9/11 created a lot of anger in America, but I don't remember TV showing a lot of "leaders" jumping up on stumps and stirring people up to the feeding frenzy that the tent revival stype rallies I saw for Trayvon.

 

-----

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Imagine black guys sitting around talking about "white leadership" like Fred Phelps. Phelps gets alot of play on TV. Is he REALLY a leader, with 13 people at his rallies? Does he speak for you as a white guy? No, of course not. It's silly.

 

Same here. I seriously doubt the average black family hangs on the words of Jackson or Sharpton who are basically disgraced opportunists. Why make the mistake of attributing collective black feelings to two black individuals? Does anyone do that in reverse? C'mon, enough with that. Sharpton and Jackson will be where there is a rally to be had and money to be made.

 

Their presence after the fact doesn't make Trayvon's case any more or less likely to have been caused by actual racism. Don't be distracted by that nonsense. Let's get the facts.

 

-MKL

[StuGotz]

pontifications by Jeremiah Wright, Black Panthers, Louis Farrakhan, Al Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson fan the flames in support of a racially divided America.

 

Not to take your narrative out of context, but do you want to give more examples and include white people? It just doesn't seem like a racially mixed bunch you have there..

 

Just sayin'.

 

MB>

 

[StuGotz]

9/11 created a lot of anger in America, but I don't remember TV showing a lot of "leaders" jumping up on stumps and stirring people up to the feeding frenzy that the tent revival stype rallies I saw for Trayvon.

 

-----

 

 

Whoa, maybe I have history wrong here...The administration in power didn't help it along??? The 9/11 anger , that is...

 

MB>

[Quinn]

9/11 created a lot of anger in America, but I don't remember TV showing a lot of "leaders" jumping up on stumps and stirring people up to the feeding frenzy that the tent revival stype rallies I saw for Trayvon.

 

-----

 

 

Whoa, maybe I have history wrong here...The administration in power didn't help it along??? The 9/11 anger , that is...

 

MB>

 

Do you mean that you saw government officals leading chants, asking for Amens, and leading parades that marched while reciting simplistic slogans? Guess I need to watch more cable news programs. The only demand on the public I can recall was to continue shopping so the terrorist wouldn't win. We were basically told to let the government investigate and handle it. If there was talk of lynching parties or mass rallies, they didn't hit my (limited) news sources.

 

-----

 

 

[beemerman2k]

OK, great conversation and thread so far, but I just want to jump in and steer us away from the "current administration" :smirk: It can easily send this thread down the drain of political conflicts.

 

I am doing a lot of homework, by the way. I have been asking many blacks some of the questions we have been tossing around in this thread to get a sense for just how deep these feelings dwell. In short, as you might imagine, the higher the level of success, the more shallow the racial divide; the lower the level of success, the greater the anger.

 

Same with the degree to which we buy the portrayal of the State of Florida v George Zimmerman case: the higher up the ladder, the more objective and open the analysis.

[beemerman2k]

For the record folks, my encouragements to steer away from any of the White House administrations was simply my way of trying to head off danger before it happens. What was said is fine as it is and I did not mean my words to be any sort of a "warning" or a "rebuke" to anyone who has posted so far. I simply posted that to avoid the possibility of someone jumping in with something super inflammatory that sends the thread all to hell, that's all.

[Huzband]

So basically, we're getting nowhere. To quote Dire Straits, same as it ever was. Too bad, really.

 

You can force kids into school, but you can't educate them. You can try to drag the thug minded (white,black, what have you)out of the 'hood, but you can't drag the 'hood out of their mindset. Rare occasions? Yes. But still, not enough.

 

So the lingering question is, where do we, as reasonable thinking educated folks, go from here?

[Matts_12GS]

So basically, we're getting nowhere. To quote Dire Straits, same as it ever was. Too bad, really.

 

Actually, that was the talking heads ;-)

 

 

[moshe_levy]

So the lingering question is, where do we, as reasonable thinking educated folks, go from here?

 

There is only one answer, and Ghandi gave it to us: Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

-MKL

[Huzband]

So basically, we're getting nowhere. To quote Dire Straits, same as it ever was. Too bad, really.

 

Actually, that was the talking heads ;-)

 

 

Dang it! I knew it was wrong when I typed it.

 

And what were you, a senior in high school at the time?

[Huzband]

So the lingering question is, where do we, as reasonable thinking educated folks, go from here?

 

There is only one answer, and Ghandi gave it to us: Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

-MKL

 

Your response is non responsive to my question.

[moshe_levy]

I suppose you can choose to see it that way. I think it's a direct response.

 

-MKL

[beemerman2k]

In my 2 cents opinion (which hasn't been worth all that much so far in this thread ), what our country needs is an outward focus. Our "racial divide" is becoming less and less significant with each passing day. The world is changing, yet in some ways, we are not changing with it.

 

In the same way, an old and counterproductive mindset remains in the black community -- a mindset of victimization, of entitlements, of innocence, of completely ignoring the planks -- an old and counterproductive mindset also dwells on the rest of the nation. The national counterproductive mindset is that which sees the United States of America as the sole world power, and the rest of the world as a bunch of "has beens", "never was", and "might someday be". Many of those "never was" and "might someday be" countries are rising up and positioning themselves to compete for the remaining business opportunities that exist in this country.

 

There was a time when ground zero for business opportunity was right here in our back yard. Young people with a high school education could enjoy a career in manufacturing or in service industries. That young couple could afford a house solely on the father's income, a car or two (and maybe a motorcycle, too), and they could have children and send them off to college someday.

 

That day is gone. Private enterprises in our own country has shipped off millions of jobs and billions (trillions?) of dollars in opportunity to communist China, hiring their workers over our very own. Now, young communist couples can graduate from high school, enjoy a career in manufacturing, and send their kids off to college someday. Every time I hear someone in this country call another a "communist", I chuckle in my heart as they are both sending money to China, and thereby strengthening that country, to buy Chinese made goods on a regular basis. Not to mention the American bought investment portfolios that provide China with the funds it needs to take out American competitors! China, India, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, Brazil -- so many countries are now rising up and are competing with us for resources and opportunity.

 

Guess how much they care about our "racial divide"? From their perspective, we had better work it out and work it out NOW or it just won't matter any more. We'll continue to war and fight over an ever shrinking pie.

 

Every time I go to work, or to the hospital, or to the local pharmacy, I see countless foreign nationals in this country either learning their profession, or as leaders in their profession. I ask myself, "Hmmm, I wonder if Rajan plans to send his kids to the USA to learn like he did?" I know the answer; "Absolutely NOT!". Rajan plans for India to be dominant by the time his kids grow up. Tomorrow's IBM's and Google's and Microsoft's and Big 8 Accounting Firms will all be based in India, not the USA. I'm not just speculating, either, as this is what the Indians where I work tell me all the time. "America's day is ending, tomorrow belongs to India", they say.

 

They see our flagrant off-shoring, our massive importing of foreign labor, our diminishing levels of education, our crumbling infrastructure, our massive national debt, and they know in their hearts that tomorrow belongs to them, and what ever other country's are in a position to fight for tomorrows business, and among them won't be the USA. Even now, I am a software engineer. As I see the young people rising up in the profession, they are almost overwhelmingly Indian. I see very few Americans learning this skill, so that tells me clearly where tomorrows software will be written.

 

We, as a nation, have to STOP being so insular, so inward focused, and start learning about what's happening in the rest of the world. Already, many of our problems can be attributed to the lack of opportunities to earn a decent living. We are becoming a nation of Lowes and McDonalds and Movie theater and Mall and Walmart and Outback Steak House laborers. Tomorrows white collar workers will be on the other side of the planet, and our kids will be fighting to send their kids to that foreign country to learn accounting.

 

Once we wake up, and realize what is becoming of our nation, I think our racial divides will be put in their proper context, which means they'll pretty much disappear over night.

 

This is how I see the problem, and the solution.

 

By the way, lest anyone fry me for implying as much, I am not at all against our spreading the wealth of opportunity around the globe. I am very VERY pleased to see Indians and Chinese people get productive work and feed their families. The people of these country's know all about hunger in ways we have no idea, and quite frankly, never have had any idea on these shores. So that is a good thing. But so many of the problems we have raised in this thread would disappear if these kids had a job, a vocation, a career, and a future. It won't be given to us (our young), we have to rediscover what it means to compete! So my hope is that the nation wakes up and gets busy on productive matters!

[Mister Tee]

The Tee has been out of the country for a while and has seen this thread for the first time. Too many comments to read them all through.

 

I don't see this as a racial issue. I think the shooter, George Zimmerman, is mildly retarded and borderline psychotic. Physically underdeveloped, he compensates by acting out his wannabe cop fantasy by volunteering for "neighborhood watch" with a gun. A delusional tard with a gun is a dangerous combination.

 

Having been a young black male (actually, let me reprhase that because I don't think it just applies to blacks) Having been a young male, if I saw some short psycho tard casing me out, I would be initially scared, then angered, and I would want to beat his ass. I think Treyvon Martin would havbe been in his right to beat Zimmerman's ass if he did. I suspect that anybody that looked like a gang banger in Zimmerman's eyes would have probably walked in to the same trap.

 

How it was handled was a different situation. Zimmerman WAS arrested. He WAS questioned. All night long. The District Attorney calls the shots on what and if to charge. If they don't bring charges, the police can't hold him indefinately.

 

Who dropped the ball on this? The DA. Was it racially motivated? I think it was just complacency but I don't know for sure. I think something between negligent homicide and intentional manslaughter sounds about right for Zimmerman. I suspect that's how it will play out.

[beemerman2k]

Here's an interesting article that attempts to peice together the events that night with a timeline. I found this to be rather informative. No solutions, stated or proposed, other than our need to remain open to the facts as they come out.

 

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2012/04/411.html

 

[tallman]

James,

Not too long ago, the projection was for America to have

a "minority majority" by 2050.

That has turned out to be wrong.

Current census data shows a trend where the number of white babies is decreasing and the number of minority babies increasing at a rate that will bring about this new America sooner than mid-century.

I think that when it does, any group who wants to calim entitlement based on minority status will encounter new POV's and challenges much different than in the 20th and first part of 21st centuries.

It may be time for those who consider themself a minority or majority group member to reorient that POV.

In 2050 I think groups asking for special status based on discrimination in the past may find those attitudes falling on less receptive, if not deaf ears.

Minorities of today need new leadership, IMO.

Leaders who plan for the future and don't live/dwell in the past.

There is no way to ever really compensate those who did great things in the past, nor is there any way to compensate for deficiencies or wrongs of the past.

YMMV

[beemerman2k]

Tim, not only do i agree with you, the past is a luxury we can no linger afford as a nation. What ever was done, good or bad, right or wrong, will become completely irrelavant if we dont answer to the challenges of today and tomorrow.

 

I suspect that prior to WWII, there were some deep divisions among various white ethic groups in this country. The war forced our nation to focus on something far more significant than those petty rivalries and differences such that after the war we were a far more united nation.

 

I am calling our country to do something similar, nevermind our petty differences, we have much bigger fish to fry! If we would but collectively work to save our nation, one great side effect would be to awaken to the new realities and challenges that face us as a nation, and racism is not among those significant challenges. The value of our labor, our lifestyles, our sustainability, our global competitveness, and so on -- everyone in the country has a stake in these issues.

[moshe_levy]

James, I want to commend you on your post above, which was absolutely superb. From reading it I am almost certain you've devoured Thomas Friedman's fantastic new book "That Used To Be Us," which delves into the exact subject you raised above in great detail. If you have not read it, I can tell you with 100% certainty, you should and you will enjoy it.

 

I share your viewpoint on this fully. My biggest lesson on this was grad school. In 2001 I was accepted to NYU's Langone MBA Program at night, which is ranked #1 part-time MBA program in the country. Part-time is where the sharks are because they're working all day and are on top of their game, not full time student daydreamers. They are sharp and they take no crap from academic types. I went to mediocre schools all my life and wanted to see if I could "swim with the sharks."

 

Let me tell you, when I got there, EVERY nationality was represented. Foreign, American, every race, every color, every type. And these guys are BRILLIANT people. Most of the time, to be honest, I was intimidated by how smart and accomplished these people were. The difference is, most of the foreign ones planned to go back home, use what they learned from us here, and work for peanuts. When I'd ask why, they said "We can't become citizens here - we've been trying for 8-10 years. Too much red tape. I can live like a king in India / China / Singapore etc. for $35,000.00 annually, and I will make much more than that with this degree when I get back home."

 

And here I am, having to compete with these guys in a flat world, when they're ready to work for minimum wage? Huh? And then I turn on the TV and ignorant homegrown American fools are complaining about all the woes immigrants cause?

 

We are insular! We are like the GM executives in the 1980s who were not allowed to drive anything but their own cars and thus had no clue why their asses were being handed to them by the Japanese. Insular = sure death.

 

I forget the figure but I think less than 15% of Americans even own a passport. Meanwhile 25% of startups are founded by immigrants, like my dad who came here with a few hundred bucks in his wallet and now employs 150 people. Over 50% of American technical PHDs granted are to immigrants. And here we are pissing and moaning about race and gender among our own people? Give me a break.

 

We'd better figure out that fighting amongst ourselves is a sure path to failure on every level of economics and society at large.

 

-MKL

[upflying]

This photo appeared on ABC News this morning. It was allegedly taken by an iPhone moments after the shooting. If genuine, it could help support Zimmerman's position that it was self-defense. Of course the photo could have been altered or the blood is Trayvon's. It does appear Zimmerman was wearing a hat.

 

[Pat Buzzard]

The blood flow would seem to indicate a head wound (with Zimmerman looking downwards) not splatter from a second party.

[beemerman2k]

Moshe, not only do i see this trend happening right before my eyes on a daily basis, but i also hope the uniting effect our response has on the country tears down all manner of divisions that currently exist among us. No more white v black, no more man v woman, no more gay v straight, no more religion v non religion, no more domestic v foreign -- if you are working to build this country, you are a part of the new majority in this country.

 

We certainly have our work cut out for us; we are in no position to eliminate excellence because it doesn't come in the kind of social human "package" some might prefer.

 

By the way, i have heard that Thomas Friedman has been sounding the wake up alarm for our country on this matter for some time now (since early 90's), ill have to read up on him. I wonder what he proposes as potential solutions for us to employ?

[Ken H.]

So the lingering question is, where do we, as reasonable thinking educated folks, go from here?

Create more educated folks.

 

Education, IMHO, is the kingpin to solving many, many things.

 

But we're going backward on that front too.

[beemerman2k]

So the lingering question is, where do we, as reasonable thinking educated folks, go from here?

Create more educated folks.

 

Education, IMHO, is the kingpin to solving many, many things.

 

But we're going backward on that front too.

 

This is what the rest of the world is doing. People wonder why college tuition continues to rise at the pace it does, thats because there is a global demand to attend those universities. I imagine that some decade from now, the opposite will happen and we will see tons of excess capacity as those nations build their own world class universities.

[Ken H.]

In my 2 cents opinion (which hasn't been worth all that much so far in this thread )

I agree with everything you say James, but the problem is you’re perspective that of 0.01% of USAmericans. Mostly what we see is the same old tired, “USA NUMBER ONE! - USA NUMBER ONE!” chant over and over again. From certain (unnamed here) TV networks, to (unnamed rockers recently in the news), to (also will not be named here) politicians of various ideologies. How the USA still leads the world in ___________ when in reality, for the vast majority of __________ it’s just plain not true anymore.

 

Blind patriotism is a nice dish, but it needs to be mixed with a healthy scoop of reality, sprinkled with a needed bit of humility and coated with a renewed sense defeat and realization it’s time to buckle down and start over. But by and large we see none of that. Instead its just the same old swagger around the world that has been the norm for a 1/2 a century. It’s old, it’s tiring, and it’s boring.

 

So what’s the rest of the world to do? It chalks the USA off as a hopeless cause bunch of egomaniacs (with a far dose of blame for much of the global mess) and moves on. What else would they do? Sit around and wait for the USA to get is shit together? Hardly. It’s quite visible even here in your closest and best friend Canada. In the 4ish short years we’ve been here its clear there has been a shift toward a, ‘forget the USA, it’s time to move on’ mindset. Tempered with a, ‘and it’s a damn shame. They used to be a great county. But what’s a guy/country to do?’ sadness.

 

You say the USA needs an outward focus. I would re-phrase that slightly to say what the USA needs is an outward perspective. Or more accurately - an inward focus from an outward perspective.

 

There is MUCH to learn from the rest of the world. There are answers to questions out there. It’s a big world! The USA needs swallow its pride and ask for help. If you ever did, I’m betting most of the world would come to your assistance with open arms. After all there is still much goodwill (but it’s dwindling) around the world toward the USAmerican people. But it’s sort of like knowing an alcoholic; you can be the best of friends to one (need to be even) but until (s)he realizes the mess their in, and is finally willing to reach out for help, other than a ‘I’m here for you’; there’s little the friend can do but watch in concern.

 

[moshe_levy]

Ken and James, now you're getting to the real heart of "That Used To Be Us." The issues are addressed and some solutions are proposed. Out of all the books I've read in the past 2 years on the subject, which is a pretty substantial number, that one was best. You ought to read it - see if it makes sense to you. I can see from your posts, you will enjoy it.

 

-MKL

 

PS Education is for snobs. Didn't you know that?

[Dave McReynolds]

So the lingering question is, where do we, as reasonable thinking educated folks, go from here?

Create more educated folks.

 

Education, IMHO, is the kingpin to solving many, many things.

 

But we're going backward on that front too.

 

I don't agree that this is the main problem, and in fact may be a diversion from more significant issues. I believe there are a certain number of people in our society who benefit from becomming educated. I think those people are already becomming educated, for the most part. Maybe there could be more productive uses for them in society than as stockbrokers and lawyers, but that's where the money is right now.

 

Then there are a great many people who would have made great farmers and factory workers in the past who are now being "educated," only to find themselves among a large and growing group of more-or-less permanently unemployed graduates of both colleges and technical training programs who never make it past the first level in a job interview, because there are always more qualified candidates who get the job. Or if some of them do manage to get an administrative level job in some heirarchy, like a bank or governmental agency, they are the people you roll your eyes at and try to work around as they make your life miserable with their compound inefficiencies and inability to solve any of the problems they were put in place to do.

 

In order to have a healthy country, we must start with the foundation, and the foundation is employment for what is probably the majority of the population, people who are not well suited for intellectual work, and never will be. I certainly have no magic answers as to how to accomplish this, and the less-than-magic answers I can think of off the top of my head aren't very pleasant:

 

1. Cut all forms of government support so that people have to work in order to keep from starving. There are probably plenty of manual jobs that have been eliminated or are being done by illegal workers that would re-appear if the wages were low enough and if people had to take them to avoid starving. The risk here is that the people you're starving might revolt and kill you.

 

2. Continue to feed them, and tax yourselves enough to pay for it, because I don't think it can be done on borrowed money forever. The risk here is, like the fall of the Roman Empire, is that the bulk of the population will become fat and useless, and the country will fall to outside aggression, whether military or economic.

 

3. Set up artificial barriers to the import of goods that are produced by manual labor in other countries. The risk here, or more of a certainty, is that we would all end up paying more for inferior goods produced locally, but at least those inferior goods would be produced by workers making something more than starvation wages.

[moshe_levy]

Work or starve, tariffs, etc.

 

This is sort of "race to the bottom" rhetoric which really sets you up for failure in every standard possible. Why are you focusing 100% on wages and 0% on production? The equation is always X wages for Y production, not just wages, and not just production.

 

Let us use the "real life" example of China. Chinese workers are, roughly speaking, about 10x less productive than their American counterparts. This is not as brutal as it sounds - productivity is a function of not only the worker, his skill set, and his education, but also of the tools and ancillary support available to him. Right now, it takes 10 Chinese to match the productivity of one American, roughly speaking.

 

Of course, the Chinese worker is rising fast and, in time, will catch the American (if the American remains stagnant). The Chinese worker's wages will rise accordingly based on classical economic theory, which judging from your post you would certainly hold in higher regard than Keynesian economics - so in plain terms "I'm speaking YOUR langauge," not the other side's.

 

"Racing to the bottom" means fretting and cutting training programs and freaking out over how to compete with the Chinese worker's wages. That is what your post centers on, entirely, without a peep about how to keep your lead in production rather than competing with his wage levels. And remember, his wages are rising as his productivity rises. Right now, productivity is your main advantage, FAR and away. Why not build your lead instead of fall backward in wages to match him?

 

So those of us who advocate education - whether college, vocational, trade school, apprentice programs - SOMETHING, ANYTHING - are saying, "We will focus on productivity, such that our productivity is always one step ahead of theirs, and so therefore will be our wages."

 

This, in fact, is EXACTLY the German model. Germany IS the engine of Europe. We all know this, and we all admire their products, obviously. The Germans don't have low wages - they have much HIGHER wages than we do. And yet manufacturing is BOOMING in Germany. And nobody there freaks out about how to out-cheap the Chinese. They instead focus on continuous education for their workers, who are making top end goods, which command top end prices, which pays for top end wages, and so on. Things like BMWs, and Stihl power equipment, and so on. Not cheap junk - the best.

 

So rather than "letting people work or starve," which has no chance of being a viable solution (especially if jobs aren't there, and especially since "Let Them Eat Cake" should ring a bell) it pays to consider wages as a function of your production. And the question is - is America prepared to produce as the best in the world, or not?

 

Three ways to succeed in manufacturing: Be first, be best, or be cheapest. We CANNOT be cheapest, anymore. We shouldn't want to be. Let's be first, or best, or perhaps even both!

 

What does this have to do with Trayvon, anyway?

 

-MKL

 

[beemerman2k]

 

What does this have to do with Trayvon, anyway?

 

-MKL

 

Nothing at all, and thats everything.

 

By focusing, instead, on how we can build our nation, we transform our society from the divided, fragmented, and contentious lot we are, to a nation of people working together to build something great!

 

Therefore, it has everything to do with Trayvon Martin, and the countless other stories just like it, both past and yet to come.

[Dave McReynolds]

Three ways to succeed in manufacturing: Be first, be best, or be cheapest. We CANNOT be cheapest, anymore. We shouldn't want to be. Let's be first, or best, or perhaps even both!

 

 

Of course, it would be wonderful to somehow achieve the highest productivity in the world, and to win all the gold medals in the Olympics, and to negotiate peace between the Arabs and the Israelis, and (getting back to the subject) understand how to prevent more tragedies like the Trayvon Martin incident from ever happening again. While I say this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, I don't mean to imply that any of these things are impossible dreams, and I think people should keep working on them.

 

However, at the moment we have a vast population of people, as does every other over-populated nation in the world, who are best suited to perform manual labor. The lack of meaningful manual labor for them to perform is a key component in the disintegration of our society. Not the only component, but a key component.

 

China doesn't happen to have that problem, fortunately for them, because the Chinese people consider themselves lucky if they are able to leave the farm and work in factories under conditions we would consider abysmal. It doesn't matter if they are only 10% as productive as we are, because they make up for it with long hours and low pay. And the workers generally have good morale because the long hours and low pay are an improvement over what they had before. And if any of them do mind, then "Whatever happened to ol' Charlie, anyway? He was here just last week...."

 

If we are to survive as a nation, our people need to have meaningful employment, suited to their capabilities. Even if we achieved the highest productivity in the world, it wouldn't solve the problem of lack of employment for people best suited for manual labor; what it would mean is more factories with more robot assembly lines creating more wealth for the same few people. Not a bad thing, necessarily, but not responsive to the problem.

[moshe_levy]

Dave, when you put it that way, it's hard to argue that there is some merit to this feeling. Yet I remain convinced that America's workforce is in general something to be proud of, and by investing in it CONTINUALLY we will maintain our productivity and other advantages. We do not need a nation of manual laborers like China, nor a national of stagnant MBAs like Saudi Arabia where everyone has multiple degrees in order to sweep the floor.

 

We need the brains to invent stuff AND the hands to put it together. You CANNOT separate the two. Where stuff is made, the innovations get even better as newer ideas rise from the shop floor to the engineering lab. It is like the mind and body - two entities that are really one.

 

We need the dynamic individualists and entrepreneurs, the small business starters and the bright idea men, to feel like THIS is the place they want to work. This is the place they want to start businesses and, if necessary, to immigrate here to do it! And if they want to immigrate here to work hard, LET THEM. We need them, before they go somewhere else to compete against us. We need trained workers (right now EVERY business publication reports open jobs which aren't being filled because workers are being aren't available with necessary skill sets to fill them. And they're talking about cutting job training programs. HELLO??)

 

We need a body politic which, without exception, actively promotes the idea of continual education as not only a nice goal, but an active necessity for us to remain viable competitors on the global stage. That is not a right or left idea - that's common sense that goes beyond ideology. We do not need morons who cheer when some bigger moron says college is for snobs. Not all Americans were lucky enough to be born to parents who would live in a cardboard box but somehow, some way send their kids to college and starve themselves if they had to in order to get that done. THAT is important. That should be the message coming in from every direction.

 

Friedman's book should be required reading, honestly. We're so busy looking inward at ourselves, dividing each other and haggling over stupid nonsense, that we've dropped the ball. The Germans have picked it up, and the Chinese, and the Indians. They're too hungry to give a shit about black and white and women and men. They're too busy dominating economically. They're going to eat our lunch if we don't batten down the hatches and get back to what made us great to begin with. Their economies are thriving. Their standards of living, horribly low, are rising fast. Their middle classes are expanding. "THAT USED TO BE US!!"

 

-MKL

 

 

[tallman]

 

Real or not?

[beemerman2k]

I have a pile of books that I have to read, but I did download Friedman's, "That Used To Be Us" to my kindle. I wish I had the time to read all of Friedman's books as many of them seem to deal with globalization and I see one that discusses overpopulation, which to me is another major problem of our day.

 

BTW, I love e-books, but none of them compare to reading a book on the iPad. That American designed device, which epitomizes Moshe's argument, is the king of all e-book readers!