The Trayvon Martin Case

[moshe_levy]

I'd rather have heat and not need it than to not have it and need it. In Canada's case just pain can't have it.

 

Makes sense. How about a third option? How about NOT to need it, in the first place?

 

 

But why take advice from some damn Canadian anyway? What the hell do they know? WE know everything! Of course we do. We're Americans! That's why we have 5.7x the gun-related homicides they do. Because we know everything. What was that about being insular again?

 

-MKL

[Peter Parts]

snip

In another post you mentioned that you didn't think our 200 year old constitution held up to today. All I can say to that is it is OURS. Don't mess with it!

 

The US constitution has been amended 27 times (most recently in 1992). Since you are such a devotee, surely you know what that amendment was or the one before or before that. No cheating by looking at Wikipedia like I had to do.

 

In addition to formal amendments, the text has been interpreted and otherwise judged in all kinds of ways as respecting social progress since the day it was written. I think that means it is a living document.

 

Nice thought, eh.

 

(Anybody think it is time to overhaul the Electoral College system for electing Presidents that brings vote-lesser candidates to the White House from time to time - including 2000 - or is that immutable?)

 

Ben

I always render unto Caesar what is Caesar's around this time of year

[Ohio48]

I'd rather have heat and not need it than to not have it and need it. In Canada's case just pain can't have it.

 

Makes sense. How about a third option? How about NOT to need it, in the first place?

 

 

But why take advice from some damn Canadian anyway? What the hell do they know? WE know everything! Of course we do. We're Americans! That's why we have 5.7x the gun-related homicides they do. Because we know everything. What was that about being insular again?

 

-MKL

 

So going to let the rest of us on your little secret in "Not Needing It". So just stay home, keep the door locked and hope and pray that nobody comes around looking for trouble!!!

[moshe_levy]

Mark-

 

I didn't suggest that. I think somehow that all 13 countries which have exponentially lower death rates than we do have citizens which are not home being locked doors biting their nails and hoping and praying that nobody is outside ready to kill them. C'mon now.

 

My post was not an attack on the 2nd Amendment per se - more like a wake up call to Americans who sneer at anyone outside our borders commenting on our laws, which to some outsiders are insane. If we are prepared to defend those laws as somehow keeping us safer, we'd have the numbers to prove it. But we don't. Actually the difference between Canada and the US is the same, proportionally, as the US and El Salvador and South Africa. I'm sure most American's wouldn't bat an eye commenting on the "safety" of walking along the street in El Salvador, but if a Canadian comments on us, well, all hell breaks loose. Why is that?

 

-MKL

[Ohio48]

Mark-

 

I didn't suggest that. I think somehow that all 13 countries which have exponentially lower death rates than we do have citizens which are not home being locked doors biting their nails and hoping and praying that nobody is outside ready to kill them. C'mon now.

 

My post was not an attack on the 2nd Amendment per se - more like a wake up call to Americans who sneer at anyone outside our borders commenting on our laws, which to some outsiders are insane. If we are prepared to defend those laws as somehow keeping us safer, we'd have the numbers to prove it. But we don't. Actually the difference between Canada and the US is the same, proportionally, as the US and El Salvador and South Africa. I'm sure most American's wouldn't bat an eye commenting on the "safety" of walking along the street in El Salvador, but if a Canadian comments on us, well, all hell breaks loose. Why is that?

 

-MKL

The beer, Canadian beer is so much better.

[moshe_levy]

That's undeniable. -MKL

[Bruce (Bedford)]

I'd rather have heat and not need it than to not have it and need it. In Canada's case just pain can't have it.

 

Makes sense. How about a third option? How about NOT to need it, in the first place?

 

 

But why take advice from some damn Canadian anyway? What the hell do they know? WE know everything! Of course we do. We're Americans! That's why we have 5.7x the gun-related homicides they do. Because we know everything. What was that about being insular again?

 

-MKL

 

So going to let the rest of us on your little secret in "Not Needing It". So just stay home, keep the door locked and hope and pray that nobody comes around looking for trouble!!!

 

Like Road Wolf I'm in lurking mode, having kept up with you all the way, I'm fascinated with it all, but occasionally a little lost since you are soo different 'over there'- mostly good different.

Above all I want to SHOUT get rid of your guns - BUT I know (although can't for the life of me understand) it is part of your national psyche, so forgive the outburst.

I can tell you though - without doubt I am so very grateful to live in a country close to the bottom of the chart above, don't be deceived we do have problems but by-in-large not gun ones.

Back to lurking mode.

Bruce

[upflying]

What's the murder rate in Canada/USA for methods other than firearms?

 

BTW, I wonder if someone is trying to hack into Zimmerman's GPS ankle bracelet. That tracker is sure a convenient way to find out exactly where he is at all times.

 

[Dave McReynolds]

But why take advice from some damn Canadian anyway? What the hell do they know? WE know everything! Of course we do. We're Americans! That's why we have 5.7x the gun-related homicides they do.

 

I think there's a cause and effect problem here. I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I stated before. But the analogy would be, if you're going hiking in Alaska, you might want to take along some grizzly bear spray, if not something more potent. If you're going hiking in NJ, you might be safe from grizzly bears without the extra protection. I'm pretty sure the reason for that is not that the people in NJ have figured out so much better ways of protecting themselves from grizzly bears, so much as the lack of grizzly bears that they need protecting from.

[MT Wallet]

I'd rather have heat and not need it than to not have it and need it. In Canada's case just pain can't have it.

 

Makes sense. How about a third option? How about NOT to need it, in the first place?

 

 

But why take advice from some damn Canadian anyway? What the hell do they know? WE know everything! Of course we do. We're Americans! That's why we have 5.7x the gun-related homicides they do. Because we know everything. What was that about being insular again?

 

-MKL

God I love stirring the pot! The long knives come out on schedule. Reread the post. What was the 1st line? Canadian and U.S have different traditions and cultures. Now as much as I like to dream and fantasize about that perfect world without violence oir the need for guns I still live in the real one! People in Canada may be more well behaved than here and I enjoy that. Ben, correct me here if I don't get this right, but in Canada the press can't smear a defendant before he is tried. That is one of those traditions I mentioned. They don't have the proliferation of hand guns and they don't have the crime we do. True Ben?

As to the messy constitutiona thing. How many times has society deemed it necessary to amend the 2nd amendment? In my opinion, part of our society of violence is based on the court interpretation of that document where there is less accountability for the individual to conduct himself or herself in a responsible manner.

[MT Wallet]

LEOs how has your job gotten tougher or easier with court ruliings in say the last 20 years? This might have contributed to the Z-T confict wherein one party or the other thinks they can get over on the other person with impunity.

[moshe_levy]

If you're going hiking in NJ, you might be safe from grizzly bears without the extra protection. I'm pretty sure the reason for that is not that the people in NJ have figured out so much better ways of protecting themselves from grizzly bears, so much as the lack of grizzly bears that they need protecting from.

 

So now we have two posts, this one and then Richard's, implying that somehow, someway, Americans are not well behaved. We are grizzly bears, to be scared of and armed around lest mauled in an instant. Meanwhile the Aussies and Brits and Japanese, the Germans, Poles, Italians, et. al. have perfect table manners. (The Canadians really DO have perfect table manner, so I left them out). Is that it?

 

What was that about Americans being insular? What was that about history again?

 

-MKL

[Whip]

I'd rather have heat and not need it than to not have it and need it. In Canada's case just pain can't have it.

 

Makes sense. How about a third option? How about NOT to need it, in the first place?

 

 

But why take advice from some damn Canadian anyway? What the hell do they know? WE know everything! Of course we do. We're Americans! That's why we have 5.7x the gun-related homicides they do. Because we know everything. What was that about being insular again?

 

-MKL

 

What are the gun laws in these countries?

 

 

 

Canada actually has many guns per household.

 

 

 

I love gun threads!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bruce (Bedford)]

We don't have 'perfect table manners' here in the UK by any means, BUT only the bad guys have guns HOWEVER when they are caught they feel the full force of the law (some of us say that is not enough - but that's a different story) retrospective - true - but worth the risk IMHO.

Like Canada and unlike yourselves once someone has been charged with an offence it becomes sub-judice (spelling?) and cannot be commented on by the media, a GOOD law!

Bruce

[MT Wallet]

If you're going hiking in NJ, you might be safe from grizzly bears without the extra protection. I'm pretty sure the reason for that is not that the people in NJ have figured out so much better ways of protecting themselves from grizzly bears, so much as the lack of grizzly bears that they need protecting from.

 

So now we have two posts, this one and then Richard's, implying that somehow, someway, Americans are not well behaved. We are grizzly bears, to be scared of and armed around lest mauled in an instant. Meanwhile the Aussies and Brits and Japanese, the Germans, Poles, Italians, et. al. have perfect table manners. (The Canadians really DO have perfect table manner, so I left them out). Is that it?

 

What was that about Americans being insular? What was that about history again?

 

-MKL

You're conveniently missing the point. Predators exist! some walk on 2 legs some on 4.

 

[Whip]

We don't have 'perfect table manners' here in the UK by any means, BUT only the bad guys have guns HOWEVER when they are caught they feel the full force of the law (some of us say that is not enough - but that's a different story) retrospective - true - but worth the risk IMHO.

Like Canada and unlike yourselves once someone has been charged with an offence it becomes sub-judice (spelling?) and cannot be commented on by the media, a GOOD law!

Bruce

 

..but crime is on the way UP.

[tallman]

How about a comparison of homicide rates?

Not just gun related.

link

 

If anyone really thinks that if guns suddenly vanished. worldwide, that homicide would end?

Seem to recall plenty pre-firearm homicides.

 

Hoplophobics meeting on the range in 30 minutes...

 

[RTJohn]

I'm not saying he was right to do what he did, but he didn't commit a crime in the first place. He was charged only to satisfy some very angry people.

[Peter Parts]

How about a comparison of homicide rates?

Not just gun related.

link

 

If anyone really thinks that if guns suddenly vanished. worldwide, that homicide would end?

Seem to recall plenty pre-firearm homicides.

 

Hoplophobics meeting on the range in 30 minutes...

 

Homicide rates per 100,000 people

 

[moshe_levy]

Surprise, surprise....

 

-MKL

[Peter Parts]

snip

As to the messy constitutiona thing. How many times has society deemed it necessary to amend the 2nd amendment?

 

There have more constitutional amendments voted by Congress. But they need a bunch of states to approve in a certain time frame to be adopted.

 

There have been a GREAT many efforts to address the second amendment - every time a state or big city tries to control guns or complain about nearby states that sell 'em almost like onions in a supermarkets to anybody with a few bucks. I think Maryland or Virginia has been in the news recently for lusting after gun sales by lowering the bar (to the ground).

 

Gosh, there are a lot of "militia" members in the US exercising their constitutional rights, as the Supreme Court sees it.

 

Ben

[moshe_levy]

Ben,

 

In America we look for quick and painless fix of symptom, and never address root cause. This argument will rage back and forth between people who feel petrified to walk down the street without a gun on them for self defense, and others who are petrified of the of actual criminals and of others who are petrified to walk down the street without a gun on them for self defense.

 

Nowhere at any time does popular culture try to address why we Americans have a homicide rate that can only be matched in tin pot third world banana republics or warzones. Whether or not you need a gun to defend yourself is secondary. The real question is: What is it about us, about our culture, that drives us to kill each other at an exponentially higher rate than any other counry with even a fraction of our wealth and power?

 

That is the deeper question. The answers are complicated and controversial. If you think you can answer it in less than a novel, you're kidding yourself, badly.

 

-MKL

[MT Wallet]

Ben, Moshe, Bringing it back to Zimmerman and Martin lets play "what if". In an ideal world our players don't have guns. Zimmerman is unarmed. What about being followed authorized Martin to have a fist fight with Zimmerman? Is there some feeling amongst people that they are unaccountable? Hey, I'll just beat this little guys ass for following me. I mean who the hell does he think he is following me? Who confronted who? People just don't think the rules of an orderly society apply to them. Some people know predators exist and are unwilling to become victims. So gentlemen, what do you advocate, Zimmerman just get his ass kicked until Martin was satisfied or exactly what do you think Z's options were if he didn't have a gun?

[Boffin]

We don't have 'perfect table manners' here in the UK by any means, BUT only the bad guys have guns HOWEVER when they are caught they feel the full force of the law (some of us say that is not enough - but that's a different story) retrospective - true - but worth the risk IMHO.

Like Canada and unlike yourselves once someone has been charged with an offence it becomes sub-judice (spelling?) and cannot be commented on by the media, a GOOD law!

Bruce

 

..but crime is on the way UP.

 

From the article you link:

"There has been an 11 per cent fall in gun crime since 2005 and provisional figures for firearm offences recorded by the police show they account for 0.2 per cent of all recorded crime.

 

Statistics....

 

Andy

[Paul Mihalka]

May be if Zimmerman didn't have a gun he would not have followed Martin but call the police reporting suspicious activity. That should be his self-assumed job anyways. May be people who don't carry are less likely to put themselves into a position where they might need it - and that is not being chicken but being smart.

[Bruce (Bedford)]

We don't have 'perfect table manners' here in the UK by any means, BUT only the bad guys have guns HOWEVER when they are caught they feel the full force of the law (some of us say that is not enough - but that's a different story) retrospective - true - but worth the risk IMHO.

Like Canada and unlike yourselves once someone has been charged with an offence it becomes sub-judice (spelling?) and cannot be commented on by the media, a GOOD law!

Bruce

 

..but crime is on the way UP.

Accepted but then "some of us say that..." without doubt the detection and punishment is being upped too - without any evidence of popular arming, even of the 'general' police force. In the large inner city's there has always been a problem and always will.

Good & quick research, well done!

Bruce

[Dave McReynolds]

That is the deeper question. The answers are complicated and controversial.

 

I'm sure you're correct. Given that the answers are complicated and controversial, if you were to discover the "true" root causes, would it be likely that anyone would agree with you? Compare with global warming, which should be more susceptible to objective scientific proof than a social phenomenum. People will tend to accept objective evidence that relates to something obscure like what happened to the universe in the first 1/1,000 of a second after the big bang more readily than they will accept objective evidence that affects them personally, like the effect of drinking a second glass of wine. Look at all the child-rearing theories that have abounded over the last 100 years; is it any more likely that we will discover the root causes of gun violence in the United States than the most effective way to raise a child? Or that anyone will care?

 

Not that I would discourage anyone from studying it; who knows, maybe a link will be found between gun violence and teeth grinding, and we can reduce unnecessary deaths and dental bills at the same time!

 

But even if you were to find the one true cause of gun violence in the US, would that eliminate the need to protect oneself, any more than finding out why grizzly bears have such a nasty temper would eliminate the need to carry bear spray?

[Whip]

We don't have 'perfect table manners' here in the UK by any means, BUT only the bad guys have guns HOWEVER when they are caught they feel the full force of the law (some of us say that is not enough - but that's a different story) retrospective - true - but worth the risk IMHO.

Like Canada and unlike yourselves once someone has been charged with an offence it becomes sub-judice (spelling?) and cannot be commented on by the media, a GOOD law!

Bruce

 

..but crime is on the way UP.

 

From the article you link:

"There has been an 11 per cent fall in gun crime since 2005 and provisional figures for firearm offences recorded by the police show they account for 0.2 per cent of all recorded crime.

 

Statistics....

 

Andy

 

How much of the increase in crime is the result of peeps not being able to defend or deter?

 

In the US we have found that allowing folks to carry has reduced crime.

 

BTW....our second best selling shirt.

 

http://whip.smugmug.com/Tee-Shirt-Grafix/Gas-Station/i-xKBTzJm/0/L/12121-L.jpg

[Whip]

Good & quick research, well done!

 

 

Thanks

 

I hope to come visit your fine country one day ... hope to meet ya.

 

Larry

[Bruce (Bedford)]

IMHO any rise in gun crime here in the UK, and believe me it is miniscule is down to nasty types in the illegal drug trade defending their business from other nastys.

Forget the statistics I can't check them & as they were in the newspaper wouldn't believe them either.

Gun misuse(?) as per the Trayvon Martin Case is not an issue as it is for you. Mind you if it happens here a beating might result that 'could' be fatal but that's not the point freely carrying guns is from my distant but fascinated viewpoint.

Repeated apologies if I'm intruding.

[Bruce (Bedford)]

Good & quick research, well done!

 

 

Thanks

 

I hope to come visit your fine country one day ... hope to meet ya.

 

Larry

 

The kettle is on - tea or coffee?

[upflying]

BTW....our second best selling shirt.

 

http://whip.smugmug.com/Tee-Shirt-Grafix/Gas-Station/i-xKBTzJm/0/L/12121-L.jpg

Nice shirt, here is a t-shirt idea for Californians.

 

"Californians express empathy, compassion and understanding before dialing 911".

 

 

[Mike]

Aah, just like the good ol' days! I can feel the love.

[Bill1948]

63, Viet Nam Vet and live in Calif. I own two rifles, two pistols, one shotgun, one always loaded and a pellet rifle (ha ha). I would never take my guns out of my home with the exception of a shooting range(once every three years). Would hate to see gun laws change in Calif. Can you imagine road rage with people allowed to carry guns!!. Hope to hunt one day, but in the present time they will stay in my home. However if someone ever broke into my home I would defend myself. I feel very comfortable with my positon. By the way, these guns were aquired over the last 43 years through purchase and inheritance.

[Huzband]

 

But why take advice from some damn Canadian anyway? What the hell do they know? WE know everything! Of course we do. We're Americans! That's why we have 5.7x the gun-related homicides they do. Because we know everything. What was that about being insular again?

 

-MKL

 

And that argument defies the logic of the legal carriers how?

 

Do you know why we have so many gun related homicides in the US? Is it because of concealed carry permits? NO! It's because of of CRIMINALS. Criminals that carry guns.

 

You're clearly anti gun. Fine.

 

Take your baseball bat to your next home invader.

[moshe_levy]

And that argument defies the logic of the legal carriers how?

 

Do you know why we have so many gun related homicides in the US? Is it because of concealed carry permits? NO! It's because of of CRIMINALS. Criminals that carry guns.

 

You're clearly anti gun. Fine.

 

Take your baseball bat to your next home invader.

 

Danny, I'm not anti-gun. I'm anti-arrogance. It is arrogance for us to pretend that we know the first thing about lowering gun-related homicides, because we rank amongst the highest of all industrialized nations. So my main point was to defend my Canadian neighbor to the north, when he was told his opinion didn't count. Oh, no? When a person sitting next to me in class get 5.7x my GPA, I defer to his opinion on that subject, not attack it. Why is this any different?

 

You say we have so many gun related homicides because we have so many criminals. You even capitalized criminals, for good measure. That's fine with me - I agree. I didn't dispute that - instead, I asked WHY. WHY is now captilized for good measure, because it's below the surface of your sloganeering.

 

Why? Why do we have so many criminals? Why 5.7x the Canadians, and many times more than the Italians, French, Germans, Aussies, Japanese, and all the rest listed in that graph? I ask again: What is it about our culture that creates this? You having a gun to protect yourself is a symptom of a larger problem, which in your view is excessive crime. I ask: Why is there excessive crime in our country, and what are we doing WRONG that all those other countries on the graph with less homicides than us aren't doing wrong?

 

Don't forget: By any measure, we Americans are the dunces in this class, not the head of the class - not even close. What's the head of the class doing that we can learn from to improve our position?

 

-MKL

[Whip]

..can we turn this into an oil thread.

 

 

[Bill1948]

What are your opinions on AMSOIL??

[Bill1948]

Sorry if I p-ssed anyone off!!

[beemerman2k]

..can we turn this into an oil thread.

 

 

 

 

Whip, you kill me man.

[beemerman2k]

OK, I have some catching up to do in this thread. I got lost somewhere back in the beginning of the shootout over the gun issue

 

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR PARTICIPATION IN THIS THREAD!!!

 

You have no idea how much good will come from this discussion. First of all, let me tell you what I am now very convinced of:

 

The only racism that still exists in America, is that which exists in the fear riddled black mind!

 

OK, sure, there are actual, real instances of racism out there somewhere. No, I wouldn't want to have been standing around in Tulsa, Oklahoma the night those men were out looking for blacks to shoot. But aside from those sensational and rare exceptions, my quote stands firm.

 

FEAR. INSECURITY. These are the poisonous elements in the black heart that must be addressed and dealt with. I am convinced of this as well: when a black person calls a white person a "racist", what they are actually revealing is what they fear that white person might be, not what that white person actually is. Of this I have no doubt. (yeah, yeah, legal disclaimers..yada-yada..there are rare instances where it might be true...) upflying: when you are called this by blacks over there in California, it's because they FEAR that you might have racist motives because as a LEO, you have the power to exercise them should you choose to. FEAR. That's all it is, Buddy.

 

Racism is alive and well in America because it is alive and well in the hearts of black Americans in the form of FEAR and INSECURITY.

 

- My wife and I were gripped with FEAR when we bought our first house, only to learn that we had nothing to fear at all.

 

- My daughter, Emma, had fear that her teammates might reject her because she was the only black person on the team, only to learn that she had nothing to fear at all (this is the point I was trying to make when I shared that story, by the way, in case you were wondering why I did share it in this thread).

 

I have always felt that once I have answers, once I understand a problem, I can deal with the problem. Thanks to all of you, your posts, your antagonism, your questioning my views, your challenges, your honesty, your openness -- the last thing I wanted was a thread where everyone says the PC thing and not the real honest truth of how they feel. The truth hurts, but it never seems to fail, does it? You have caused me to look deep and search hard for answers, and answers I have found.

 

The media is not responsible for the problem, but they don't help much either. What the media says to the black mind is this: "See? The fear that grips your heart is justified!" That's the deadly message the media beats out to us. They also beat out a similar message to all of America, really, "...your fears (guns, religion, sex, family, taxes, energy, war, etc) are justified!" If we're afraid, the media is going to make money. Sad, but true.

 

But the problem of race in America is not the white man, it is not even the media, it rests with the FEAR and INSECURITY of the heart of black people. This is a problem that we as a people must confront in ourselves and come to grips with. Of this I have no doubt. And FEAR and INSECURITY accounts for the different narrative that I have from most others who posted in this thread.

 

How did this FEAR and INSECURITY get planted in my heart? History. Family. Social contexts. But that does not provide a justification for it's continuing to dwell there when the rest of the country has clearly changed from the times when those fears were born. There are no excuses, the FEAR and INSECURITY must go!

 

When I say, "racism", I mean the using of race as a justification for the denial of rights to another. Now, "prejudice" is a different ball game. That will always dwell among us because that is human nature. We can call it "profiling", we can call it "judging", we can call it "assessing", same thing in my mind. Sometimes a negative thing, but certainly not always, it's how we function in life.

 

In any case, thank you all for helping me to see this most incredible plank in my eye.

[MT Wallet]

And that argument defies the logic of the legal carriers how?

 

Do you know why we have so many gun related homicides in the US? Is it because of concealed carry permits? NO! It's because of of CRIMINALS. Criminals that carry guns.

 

You're clearly anti gun. Fine.

 

Take your baseball bat to your next home invader.

 

Danny, I'm not anti-gun. I'm anti-arrogance. It is arrogance for us to pretend that we know the first thing about lowering gun-related homicides, because we rank amongst the highest of all industrialized nations. So my main point was to defend my Canadian neighbor to the north, when he was told his opinion didn't count. Oh, no? When a person sitting next to me in class get 5.7x my GPA, I defer to his opinion on that subject, not attack it. Why is this any different?

 

You say we have so many gun related homicides because we have so many criminals. You even capitalized criminals, for good measure. That's fine with me - I agree. I didn't dispute that - instead, I asked WHY. WHY is now captilized for good measure, because it's below the surface of your sloganeering.

 

Why? Why do we have so many criminals? Why 5.7x the Canadians, and many times more than the Italians, French, Germans, Aussies, Japanese, and all the rest listed in that graph? I ask again: What is it about our culture that creates this? You having a gun to protect yourself is a symptom of a larger problem, which in your view is excessive crime. I ask: Why is there excessive crime in our country, and what are we doing WRONG that all those other countries on the graph with less homicides than us aren't doing wrong?

 

Don't forget: By any measure, we Americans are the dunces in this class, not the head of the class - not even close. What's the head of the class doing that we can learn from to improve our position?

 

-MKL

Ok, if you really are interested in the why I'll tell you to study the history. Look at where we as a people started. This country was forged by conflict from colonial times onward. Settlers pushed to the interior of the country and fought the Indians for land with a gun. We declared our independence and fought for it-with a gun(s) We settled the west and again settled the conflict at the end of a gun. We had lawless towns and the law and the crooks were only divided by a fine line and defined by a gun. We glorified the old west and the conflicts and made legends and heroes of Bat Masterson and Wyatt Earp. The vastness of the country and the sparcity of people and the law made it crucial that settler and farmers alike take responsibility for their own safety. It was an independent self reliant spirit that made the country able to acomplish great things. Follow the country from 1900 onward and you see a spirit and freedom which included guns until the gansters of the 20's and 30's changed the narrative. There was a backlash in places like NY and Chicago and elsewhere. The gun played an integral part of our history. It is romanticized in westerns and in gangster movies. Conflict resolution is shown to be accomplished with a few well placed shots in the movies and no consequence to pay. In short it is ingrained in our national psyche. Got a problem get your gun. Solve the problem shoot your enemy. For the unsophistocated(unlike the opinions expressed here)To a gang banger a gun is power or security or safety.It is the 1st alterantive in some quarters not the last. Other countries don't share the same history snd don't see success or whatever defined by the use of the gun.

As to telling Ben his opinion didn't count: Bunk! I was and still am poining out that the(our) constitution is a uniquely American instrument. Opinions are fine I'd encourage every one from another country to share why you have the laws you have and how that is an alternative not just criticize ours.

[MT Wallet]

beemerman, your point about the media feeding fear is well noted. If we are in a state of fear we can be more easily manipulated to (in our minds) quiet the fear.

[Mike]

I religiously change my oil every 3,000 miles . . . and dump the used stuff down the drain.

[pbharvey]

I religiously change my oil every 3,000 miles . . . and dump the used stuff down the drain.

 

That explains why the earth is warming. Let the oil assume room temperature first, then poor it down the drain.

[Kathy R]

I religiously change my oil every 3,000 miles . . . and dump the used stuff down the drain.

 

Oh sure, we need to talk religion next. Let's not leave anything out of this thread!

 

 

 

[Mike]

I religiously change my oil every 3,000 miles . . . and dump the used stuff down the drain.

 

Oh sure, we need to talk religion next. Let's not leave anything out of this thread!

 

 

Have I mentioned that I'm Catholic, but I'm really, really pissed off at my church? Which brings us to the whole issue of sex crimes, and prompts the question: "While the USA has a higher rate of homicide than many other industrialized nations against whom we are often compared, why is it that so many of those countries--Great Britain, Canada, German, Italy, and others held up as more civil--have dramatically higher rates of other violent crimes, like assault, robbery and rape?" Are the citizens of those countries inherently more violent or greedy? Do they hate women? Or is it possible that we each choose to vastly oversimplify in a manner that suits our preconceptions, ignoring the vast complexity of the human condition as it manifests itself in vastly different societies with distinct histories and values?

 

It seems to be a recurring theme, regardless of the shifting topics of discussion.

 

Every 3,000 miles, baby.

[moshe_levy]

Rich, I agree with everything you said. However our founding was really not that unique in many ways. For example, the Brits invaded Australia in the 1770s and essentially proceed to do to the Aboriginals there what we did to the Native Americans here. Not by playing footsie with them, either. Much like us. In fact, many of Australia's early European inhabitants, if I'm not mistaken, were convicts shipped off by the English Crown - not the cream of peaceful society. And Australia, too, has a wild frontier to conquer. They are a rough, tough people, with a history stained by the extremely violent treatment of the Aboriginals, much like ours is.

 

And today, look at the difference in crime....

 

I will always treat our Constitution with deference and respect. It is the first and still the greatest founding document of its kind, to place limits on the power of government rather than grant it power. It is brilliant and complex, so deep and so.... ALIVE. Purposefully vague in many areas as the founders were wise enough to know that times would change, and so social mores with them. They left it to us to interpret. It will always be a raging battle - that is a good thing. Better than a monolithic viewpoint taken literally, Taliban-style.

 

To take the history you listed as a factor is a very wise thing, in my view. But to then use it as a crutch to justify modern behavior is not wise on our part. We (Americans) used to do alot of other things in our past, that we've eradicated as a matter of law (if not always in reality) in the name of progress.

 

In other words, if your father beat the crap out of you every day, it may explain why you might do the same to your kids - but it doesn't necessarily excuse it. The cycle must be broken by a stronger son, not continued by a weaker one. You have met people like this in your life, as I have. The weak ones repeat. The strong ones learn and take a different, better path.

 

As for criticism, in my view all's fair game. I welcome criticism of our Constitution and way of life, especially from foreigners, who may have a different perspective than what we're used to hearing. It makes you stronger and your argument stronger if you can defend it rationally. It makes you weak if you never have to defend or justofy your position. We are not above it.

 

On this issue especially, where we lead the industrialized world in homicides by such a wide margin, to not expect criticism is simply crazy! We're doing SOMETHING wrong. That's why the numbers are what they are. You're beyond criticism when you're the best in class, not when you're the worst.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

Good points Mike. All good points and very well said. And that part about crime was good too!

 

-MKL

[Whip]

I religiously change my oil every 3,000 miles . . . and dump the used stuff down the drain.

 

Oh sure, we need to talk religion next. Let's not leave anything out of this thread!

 

 

Have I mentioned that I'm Catholic, but I'm really, really pissed off at my church? Which brings us to the whole issue of sex crimes, and prompts the question: "While the USA has a higher rate of homicide than many other industrialized nations against whom we are often compared, why is it that so many of those countries--Great Britain, Canada, German, Italy, and others held up as more civil--have dramatically higher rates of other violent crimes, like assault, robbery and rape?" Are the citizens of those countries inherently more violent or greedy? Do they hate women? Or is it possible that we each choose to vastly oversimplify in a manner that suits our preconceptions, ignoring the vast complexity of the human condition as it manifests itself in vastly different societies with distinct histories and values?

 

It seems to be a recurring theme, regardless of the shifting topics of discussion.

 

Every 3,000 miles, baby.

 

 

Those people need a little churchin up.

 

 

 

...and every 5000 miles is more than good enough.