The Trayvon Martin Case

[tallman]

A lot of good point being raised in these posts.

Mike, I agree with you about the media blunder.

One thing bothers me. Make that two. And find it grossly unfair.

1: The prosecutors heavily used phrase of "the life of a child was lost, and "child was killed". I am a father of two kids, 12 and 17. Loss of a child would be unbearable.

But we have to understand that a 17 year old male (a child) can brutally beat you and can cause great bodily injury. The feeling of invulnerability and testosterone. They are quick and the body is more forgiving; it is the same regardless of skin color.

Case in point: 6th street (entertainment district) Austin TX about a year ago one punched an other in the jaws, got knocked out, fell to side walk smacked his head on hard concrete and died a month later from brain injury complication.

 

As Ricardo Portillo found out during a soccer game in Utah when he died from one punch thrown by a 17 yo.

Or perhaps 17 yo De'Marquis Elkins who murdered the 13mo baby Antonio when the mother would not give him money is an example of

how 17 yo should act?

 

Strange how the media chooses to focus on some situations...

 

2: I understand the profiling of black youth and the pertaining status-quo in America. There is lots of room to improve. However in all fairness the parties in this case (in theory) could be switched, a 17 year old Zimmerman (child) and 28 year old Martin in confrontation. Or leave them as they are but switch their race in the same confrontation. If justice is fair, the out come should be the same.

I don't think the public outcry would be the same. And it is the troubling part. The public's view is clouded by the race of the parties involved.

 

We've had several self defense/stand your ground cases here in the past couple years. All involved shooting between members of the same race. In each case, it was the law itself that the media focused on, not race.

[10ovr]

Where is Al Sharpton and the NAACP on this one,, And where is the Media coverage http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138388/Four-Georgia-men-arrested-beating-death-ex-Marine-survived-TWO-tours-duty-Iraq.html

[1springer]

....busy pressuring Holder to investigate/charge Zimmerman with hate crimes. You see you have to understand..... first we prosecute then persecute.

[Marty Hill]

Where is Al Sharpton and the NAACP on this one,, And where is the Media coverage http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138388/Four-Georgia-men-arrested-beating-death-ex-Marine-survived-TWO-tours-duty-Iraq.html

 

Amazing, I live in cobb county and have heard nothing about this. Guess it just isn't worth making a fuss over.

[lawnchairboy]

Al Sharpton won't be able to find much outrage for this. Perp/victim profile is all wrong.

 

Of course, the "reverend" has never really been a paragon of decency, or more valuable than whale stool.

 

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/03/al-sharpton-s-long-bill-of-goods-from-tawana-brawley-to-primetime.html

 

 

 

[beemerboy]

I just watched the Martin family lawyer give her take about Zimmerman acquittal. She says that she believes in "social engineering" as a means of determining the outcome of trials such as this one.

 

Social engineering.

 

I think that's double speak for tweaking the outcome despite the law and despite the jury's decision.

 

Think about her statement, folks. Think about it.

[Roadwolf]

I just watched the Martin family lawyer give her take about Zimmerman acquittal. She says that she believes in "social engineering" as a means of determining the outcome of trials such as this one.

 

Social engineering.

 

I think that's double speak for tweaking the outcome despite the law and despite the jury's decision.

 

Think about her statement, folks. Think about it.

 

 

You know, every time I read this, I just laugh... you do know that everything in society is "social engineered", don't you? Not just the attitudes, laws or measures to balance the scales that you don't agree with, but the status quo that you may deem to prop up. If we are going to find fault with the lawyer's statement and intent, then let's not stop there. Let's go after ALEC and the Koch Brothers that helped pass the Stand Your Ground laws in Florida and other states (along with other legislative initiatives that they write and get enacted word for word into state law... talk about your social engineering).

[texasaggie97]

I just want to add that this has been the best conversation I have read on this issue. All have had great points and this has been a positive dialogue.

 

Thanks

[Matts_12GS]

You know, every time I read this, I just laugh... you do know that everything in society is "social engineered", don't you? Not just the attitudes, laws or measures to balance the scales that you don't agree with, but the status quo that you may deem to prop up. If we are going to find fault with the lawyer's statement and intent, then let's not stop there. Let's go after ALEC and the Koch Brothers that helped pass the Stand Your Ground laws in Florida and other states (along with other legislative initiatives that they write and get enacted word for word into state law... talk about your social engineering).

 

Our SYG and CCW laws are probably the best in the country. You go fix your own theocracy up there, we'll be fine down here.

 

 

[SWB]

Let's go after ALEC and the Koch Brothers that helped pass the Stand Your Ground laws in Florida and other states (along with other legislative initiatives that they write and get enacted word for word into state law... talk about your social engineering).

 

Our SYG and CCW laws are probably the best in the country. You go fix your own theocracy up there, we'll be fine down here.

 

 

Man, and I thought SC was a Second Amendment respecting state. When did it become Massachusetts or New York?

 

Hmm, I may need to strike it from my relocation target list. Not leaving California for some place worse ...

[SWB]

Blacks feel ignored, overlooked, and disregarded.

 

About 95% of Americans are in that club! James, rejoice. America has finally achieved unity.

[Roadwolf]

Man, and I thought SC was a Second Amendment respecting state. When did it become Massachusetts or New York?

 

Hmm, I may need to strike it from my relocation target list. Not leaving California for some place worse ...

 

Don't worry, SC is just fine for 2nd Amendment folks... you and Matt will fit in just fine.

[Selden]

As far as I'm concerned this had nothing to do with anything other than Zimmerman's complete lack of role clarity as a neighborhood watch person.

 

[10ovr]

As far as I'm concerned this had nothing to do with anything other than Zimmerman's complete lack of role clarity as a neighborhood watch person.

 

And Zimmerman would be dead,,,,

[beemerboy]

And Zimmerman would be dead,,,,

 

knocked that one out of the park..........

[Patallaire]

The demonstrations I have been hearing about in the news by my fellow black Americans is taking place because they feel like they are not being listened to. Blacks feel ignored, overlooked, and disregarded

 

There is something tiring about this argument at this point in our lives. Being a child of the 60s and witnessing and participating in the movement, I witnessed the great strides that were made by protests, leadership and committment, I can't help but think that the people who led those movements would be appaled today by what they see and hear today. A victim mentality of being "Ignored, Overlooked and Disregarded" Really, how do you get to that point of view from here.

The opportunities are/were there and were fought for and people died to get the right to not be ignored, however many have elected to drop out of school, {In Buffalo the State is taking over two schools because they have a 21 and 26% graduation rate, apparantly you can't graduate if you don't attend, there are protests about that here too!}

Crime in the inner cities is up because of what? The movements of the 60s were about, Peace" schools were intergrated, salaries were put on parity, reverse racism happened in admissions policies, many young people in the inner city elect to have a distinctive language, dress is early jail, pants down to their knees, hoodies, drop out odf school, and then complain about profileing and that they are not getting attention or listened to and disregarded, and they can't find a job. Really.

 

One can hardly believe that in a country where people of foreign decent come over here and become quiet success without asking for any parity other than the ability to work and recognize that the only place success comes before work, is in the dictionary, that opportunity is there if you seek it. They are new to new to the country and didn't have a leader who marched on Washington in the 60s, who had a dream, who died for the dream and prayed that his mission would live on, what would he think today?

I can hardly accept that "Black People" are overlooked ignored and disregarded. We all have choices, and we all have opportunities in life. Some are hard fought and others come form effort and energy. The victim mentality needs to stop. That fight was fought and won in the 60's, by people who were passionate, focused and expected nothing but wanted opportunity. THis has been squandered by generations after all of the movements great work. Racism is created by racists on both sides of the fence. Opportunities are created by those who want to succeed. How much more is there to listen to?

[Ohio48]

Where is Al Sharpton and the NAACP on this one,, And where is the Media coverage http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2138388/Four-Georgia-men-arrested-beating-death-ex-Marine-survived-TWO-tours-duty-Iraq.html

 

Amazing, I live in cobb county and have heard nothing about this. Guess it just isn't worth making a fuss over.

 

No, it's just reversal of colors, and that just don't get it in these times.

[Selden]

The jury didn't find Zimmerman innocent; the evidence did.

The jury found Zimmermann "not guilty" not "innocent."

[beemerman2k]

About 95% of Americans are in that club! James, rejoice. America has finally achieved unity.

 

Probably the most insightful, truthful, statement in this thread! Got a good chuckle out of this one :smile:

[upflying]

If, as some say, the prosecution of GZ was politically motivated, then it is reasonable to assume:

1. A crime was committed by the State of FL against GZ

2. If there is to be a violation civil rights investigation by the US Department of Justice, one would think GZ's civil rights were clearly violated by the government of Florida.

[beemerman2k]

Pat: my point was simply to convey the sentiments, not to comment on whether they were justified or not.

 

When we decide to listen, we have to postpone judgement. We must listen with the interest to understand without prejudice. Once we listen and understand, then we can assess the condition and work toward resolution.

 

It's all about first seeking to remove the plank from our own eye (the act of listening to others, including stinging criticisms), then being able to see clearly the speck in our brother's eye (the act of communication and reconciliation). That's where I am coming from anyhow.

 

For the record, technically speaking, I completely agree with what you are saying, but just coming out and saying that to people isn't going to "win friends and influence people".

[beemerman2k]

As far as I'm concerned this had nothing to do with anything other than Zimmerman's complete lack of role clarity as a neighborhood watch person.

 

 

 

So admittedly, this is where my eye of scrutiny rests on Ziimmerman as well. He and Martin might both be alive because he might have followed him less aggressively. Not to mention the fact that Martin would have known he was dealing with the community watchman rather than some random weirdo following him. And if Zimmerman had a partner, no fight would have ensued or Martin would have had his head handed to him.

 

All conjecture, I know, but to me this does give ground to the perspective being put forth by Scott and Seldon.

[upflying]

For the record, off duty police officers are trained and taught to be good witnesses and call the on-duty folks to deal with the situation.

Going one on one off-duty will always turn out bad. Too bad GZ didn't know this.

[Matts_12GS]

Well said Pat. I second those emotions.

 

James, reading your comments, all I can see is the intimidation of those that COULD change the black community by those that want to preserve the status quo there; thus perpetuating the cycle.

[Mike]

As far as I'm concerned this had nothing to do with anything other than Zimmerman's complete lack of role clarity as a neighborhood watch person.

 

 

 

So admittedly, this is where my eye of scrutiny rests on Ziimmerman as well. He and Martin might both be alive because he might have followed him less aggressively. Not to mention the fact that Martin would have known he was dealing with the community watchman rather than some random weirdo following him. And if Zimmerman had a partner, no fight would have ensued or Martin would have had his head handed to him.

 

All conjecture, I know, but to me this does give ground to the perspective being put forth by Scott and Seldon.

 

I didn't follow the trial day by day, so maybe someone who did can shed more light on this. But, at least as reported earlier, Zimmerman was not "on duty" in his neighborhood watch role that evening. As far as following Martin is concerned, he reportedly told the responding officers that he had gotten out of his car to check the street sign, so he could relay that information to the responding officers when they called him on his cell phone. According to Zimmerman, he was jumped by Martin as he was walking back to his car.

 

I'm not claiming that Zimmerman exercised anything close to the highest level of judgment, but his version of events in the immediate aftermath of the shooting didn't match up with the "stalking" narrative of the prosecution.

[Marty Hill]

The demonstrations I have been hearing about in the news by my fellow black Americans is taking place because they feel like they are not being listened to. Blacks feel ignored, overlooked, and disregarded

 

There is something tiring about this argument at this point in our lives. Being a child of the 60s and witnessing and participating in the movement, I witnessed the great strides that were made by protests, leadership and committment, I can't help but think that the people who led those movements would be appaled today by what they see and hear today. A victim mentality of being "Ignored, Overlooked and Disregarded" Really, how do you get to that point of view from here.

The opportunities are/were there and were fought for and people died to get the right to not be ignored, however many have elected to drop out of school, {In Buffalo the State is taking over two schools because they have a 21 and 26% graduation rate, apparantly you can't graduate if you don't attend, there are protests about that here too!}

Crime in the inner cities is up because of what? The movements of the 60s were about, Peace" schools were intergrated, salaries were put on parity, reverse racism happened in admissions policies, many young people in the inner city elect to have a distinctive language, dress is early jail, pants down to their knees, hoodies, drop out odf school, and then complain about profileing and that they are not getting attention or listened to and disregarded, and they can't find a job. Really.

 

One can hardly believe that in a country where people of foreign decent come over here and become quiet success without asking for any parity other than the ability to work and recognize that the only place success comes before work, is in the dictionary, that opportunity is there if you seek it. They are new to new to the country and didn't have a leader who marched on Washington in the 60s, who had a dream, who died for the dream and prayed that his mission would live on, what would he think today?

I can hardly accept that "Black People" are overlooked ignored and disregarded. We all have choices, and we all have opportunities in life. Some are hard fought and others come form effort and energy. The victim mentality needs to stop. That fight was fought and won in the 60's, by people who were passionate, focused and expected nothing but wanted opportunity. THis has been squandered by generations after all of the movements great work. Racism is created by racists on both sides of the fence. Opportunities are created by those who want to succeed. How much more is there to listen to?

 

Many thanks Pat. 100% truthful and needs to be said. I came from poverty/joined the military for 4 years to get the GI Bill. Graduated from college in 3 years while working full time. Two children whom I supported. Nothing special here/anyone could have done it if they work instead of looking for a free ride.

 

 

[Selden]

And Zimmerman would be dead,,,,

I respectfully disagree. As James says later in this thread: "And if Zimmerman had a partner, no fight would have ensued or Martin would have had his head handed to him." That said, it's all 20/20 hindsight, so who knows. I'm sure that if he had the chance to do it over, Zimmerman would have preferred working with a partner.

[SuperG]

As far as I can remember from the trial, There was not an official neighborhood watch program. Zimmerman was a "self proclaimed neighborhood watch coordinator".

likely, he was the one originally going around telling other residents to look out for suspicious activity, after a robbery has taken place.

 

 

As far as I'm concerned this had nothing to do with anything other than Zimmerman's complete lack of role clarity as a neighborhood watch person.

 

[Patallaire]

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/you-cant-handle-the-truth

 

 

For the record, technically speaking, I completely agree with what you are saying, but just coming out and saying that to people isn't going to "win friends and influence people

 

Sometimes truth is more difficult to handle than being a victim. It is time everyone stepped up to the plate and owned the responsibility for their lives and choices. This would be a better place. I am thinking that my friends all share my point of view and that I only need to influence one person, you perhaps, than you need to influence someone and so it will go. It will be just a large cirle of love and responsibility engulfing the world. To think it originated here!

[upflying]

Interesting short story about Neighborhood Watch. Last year I bought a retirement/second/Ca escape home in Reno that is governed by a HOA.

A burglary recently occurred so I suggested the HOA start a Neighborhood Watch program.

Due to the GZ/TM event, no way in hell was the reply I got. This was before the verdict.

Too bad, especially since I was the featured guest speaker at numerous Neighborhood Watch meetings throughout my career.

[1springer]

Pat -

 

I know a great number of folks who believe as you and don't under estimate the influence of your comments. It is a sad day when folks refuse to be influenced by the truth.

 

That having been said, this circle of love business is a little over the top.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I can only speak to the emotional pain a case like this has to the black mind. This case resonates with our memories, experiences, and stories we were told by ancestors in our upbringing.

 

Looking for clarification here. Was this case painful for black folks because they feel the result (a not guilty verdict for GZ) was unjust?

 

I see many black people on TV saying that "GZ killed TM because TM was black." Is there a widespread belief among black people that TM wasn't actively beating GZ to death when he was shot? Or is that question oversimplifying black peoples' complaint?

[SuperG]

Interesting short story about Neighborhood Watch. Last year I bought a retirement/second/Ca escape home in Reno that is governed by a HOA.

A burglary recently occurred so I suggested the HOA start a Neighborhood Watch program.

Due to the GZ/TM event, no way in hell was the reply I got. This was before the verdict.

Too bad, especially since I was the featured guest speaker at numerous Neighborhood Watch meetings throughout my career.

 

Bob are surprised as to why the watch program being turned down? THe home owners association ( or their insurance company ?) had to fork out $1millon for wrongful death.

 

" Trayvon Martin’s family settles wrongful death lawsuit with Sanford, Florida, homeowner’s association

 

The undisclosed sum is believed to be more than $1 million, the Orlando Sentinel reported."

 

Link here linky here

 

 

 

 

 

[upflying]

Interesting short story about Neighborhood Watch. Last year I bought a retirement/second/Ca escape home in Reno that is governed by a HOA.

A burglary recently occurred so I suggested the HOA start a Neighborhood Watch program.

Due to the GZ/TM event, no way in hell was the reply I got. This was before the verdict.

Too bad, especially since I was the featured guest speaker at numerous Neighborhood Watch meetings throughout my career.

 

Bob are surprised as to why the watch program being turned down? THe home owners association ( or their insurance company ?) had to fork out $1millon for wrongful death.

 

" Trayvon Martin’s family settles wrongful death lawsuit with Sanford, Florida, homeowner’s association

 

The undisclosed sum is believed to be more than $1 million, the Orlando Sentinel reported."

 

Link here linky here

 

 

 

 

Interesting, did not know that. That was a fast out of court settlement.

[beemerman2k]

I can only speak to the emotional pain a case like this has to the black mind. This case resonates with our memories, experiences, and stories we were told by ancestors in our upbringing.

 

Looking for clarification here. Was this case painful for black folks because they feel the result (a not guilty verdict for GZ) was unjust?

 

I see many black people on TV saying that "GZ killed TM because TM was black." Is there a widespread belief among black people that TM wasn't actively beating GZ to death when he was shot? Or is that question oversimplifying black peoples' complaint?

 

 

Fantastic question, and the question that gets to the heart of the matter.

 

In all these cases where a black man is killed by a white cop, the narrative is pretty much the same: unarmed black man, who might have been less than bright, but otherwise doing nothing illegal, is killed by white police officer for what would appear to be non-lethal circumstances.

 

Think:

 

- Amadou Diallo, a west African immigrant shot multiple times by NYC police officers for reasons I never understood

 

- Oscar Grant, a young man at an Oakland (or was it Berkeley?) subway platform and shot in the back while being handcuffed by a white cop

 

- Gerald Bell, a young man killed by the police coming out of a night club in NYC

 

- DJ Henry, a Pace University(?) student shot by police in front of a night club

 

And then there's the Rodney King incident or the Charles Stuart murder of his wife here in Boston back in '89. Mr Stuart shot his pregnant wife and unborn baby and told police a black man did it, and just about everyone bought the story. Many black men were harassed by the police in Boston over the ensuing month or 2. There are many more such cases that are coming to mind, but you get the point.

 

Then there are some of my own experiences, which I shared earlier in this thread, about being followed or profiled by the police.

 

One day back around '89 or so, I went into Lord & Taylor to buy some clothes for an interview. As I browsed the suits, I began to realize that two store guards were following me around! Of course, it's always an irritating experience. Eventually, I decided to simply go spend my money elsewhere. As I was leaving, about 20' from the doors to Boylston Street, I felt a bump on my left shoulder. A young black man bumped into me as he was running out of the store with an arm full of athletic clothing! The 2 security guards went in pursuit, and the young thief taunted them as he jogged faster than the guards could sprint. Anyhow, after seeing that I figured I'd cut the guards a break :smirk:

 

My point is that all these collective stories and experiences, along with history books and tales you learn from family and ancestors, all reinforce the picture in your mind that you can be as squeaky clean as you want to be, that promises you nothing (remember what I wrote about my younger brother and his experiences with the Cambridge Police, who acted "stupidly" , at T-Cell Sciences?).

 

So when a news story breaks that a young black man named Trayvon Martin, who was simply walking to and from the store to get skittles, was shot and killed by a zealous, wannabe cop, the black mind finds the story to be very plausible. We can all recall instances where we were as innocent as one can be, yet still targeted, profiled, stopped (did I ever tell you the story of what happened to me within the first 10 minutes of owning my brand new 2000 BMW R1100RT? Yep, stopped by a Mass State Police officer who wanted to make sure the bike was legally mine. I was pissed!). So the narrative of this case rings very true to the black experience.

 

And that's the so-called "racial divide" at work in cases like this one. Being a people who are profiled less frequently, it's not something that is quite at the forefront of your mind like it would be with me were we all to gather as a group of BMW motorcycle riders at a given location. You bet it would be something that would be right on the edge of my mind. But since it's not a part of your experience, and George Zimmerman's viewpoint more closely mirrors your own stories, that's the perspective you find easier to believe.

 

From the black mans point of view, the Trayvon Martin story rings true. From the white persons point of view, the Zimmerman story rings true. Right here is where the gap in our ability to understand each other exists.

 

So Joe Friday, the answer to your question is "yes"! The black narrative suggests that the verdict on George Zimmerman was unjust because we also find it easy to believe that Trayvon Martin was simply walking to and from the store fearing for his safety. The black experience says that Martin doesn't have to be up to criminal activity to mark him as a criminal in the eyes of Zimmerman. If Martin attacked Zimmerman, it is reasonable for the black mind to believe he feared for his life and therefore took the offensive.

 

Now, none of what I am saying excuses any of us from demanding facts, data, witness testimony, etc. Just because it fits a pattern doesn't mean mere appearances tell the whole story. So I engage in conversations like this one because I want to know what exactly happened that evening. Even still, if you pay attention to my writings, you see that I still have to combat media fed assumptions about both of these young men. I believe that the vast majority of people are way too busy living their own lives to care about "oppressing" someone else. 99.99% of the calls of racism are complete unfounded in my view, and the other 1% is inconsequential. Yes, I do believe we live in a post-racial society. Absolutely, I do. Nonetheless, some ghosts die hard, and this narrative is one of them.

[Roadwolf]

And that's the so-called "racial divide" at work in cases like this one. Being a people who are profiled less frequently, it's not something that is quite at the forefront of your mind like it would be with me were we all to gather as a group of BMW motorcycle riders at a given location. You bet it would be something that would be right on the edge of my mind. But since it's not a part of your experience, and George Zimmerman's viewpoint more closely mirrors your own stories, that's the perspective you find easier to believe.

 

James, what you are describing and what most caucasian members of the board here don't realize they enjoy is majority privilege (also described by social scientists as white privilege). Your description is a textbook example of it. It is something that I try to acknowledge in my daily life. Funny how you can recognized it in everyday situations. I have literally dozens of examples that come to mind when I stop and think about it. Probably would be hundreds more if I was keenly aware of it happening at the time.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences... really enlightening.

[Jake]

So, there's a black guy in my office who is trying to unload his Stevie Wonder tickets since my former Motown neighbor will no longer perform in our state until we repeal the Stand Your Ground Laws.

 

Perhaps Stevie is also upset at our Castle Doctrine.

 

What either of these two laws have to do with the Zimmerman trial is exactly equal to the amount of patience I have with misinformed artists (loves me some Little Stevie though) who use their fame to politicize and create further devisiveness on an important issue, which is zero.

 

Our radio stations have already responded, and they are playing medley clips of his songs in such short durations of each song so that Mr. Wonder is not eligible to receive his royalties, and we get our Stevie-fill. Nice. That's the kind of offensive strategy that Trayvon surely needed.

 

What a mess this is. And what a great country this is that angry misinformed people have a forum to be heard and have a vote just as equal as us happy misinformed people. With Stevie stealing my spotlight, I'm now having a hard time explaining to my daughter my very plausible theory that GZ drew his weapon first (out of fear, false bravado, and in way over his head), which prompted TM to wrestle him to the ground from the front in fear of his life, and flail away while also screaming for help. Who is going to scream for help in this situation - the guy who was being pursued, or the guy with the gun?

 

Reasonable doubt. It does amazing things to what we think we believe, particularly in a group dynamic in a sealed room. From reports, four jurors changed their minds.

 

Ok, there's no black guy with tickets to unload in my office. Did anyone believe that?

 

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Well said Pat. I second those emotions.

 

James, reading your comments, all I can see is the intimidation of those that COULD change the black community by those that want to preserve the status quo there; thus perpetuating the cycle.

 

 

The alleged "ghosts of the past" I referred in my prior post would be dead by tomorrow if those who COULD change the narrative WOULD change the narrative. But why don't they? I often ask myself that question. No doubt many benefit from drumming up fear and suspicion, but I actually think most of these "race baitors" are quite sincere in that they really do believe the things they are saying!

 

The next most dangerous ideology that has swept our nation, after the "victim" mindset, is the "bitterness" mindset. In fact, the two seem to go hand in hand in most cases. The bitterness mindset goes as follows:

 

[insert group of choice here] will always be [insert properties here], and therefore you can never trust them because they will always use you for their own advantages.

 

This is what is often said about white police officers, or people of a given political persuasion, or people of an income group, or people of a certain gender, or... They are racist, sexist, homophobic, chauvinistic, greedy, ruthless, etc, etc, etc. So you better not extend to them any credibility or believability, or they will burn your britches.

 

Once a person descends into the bitterness hole, it is very VERY difficult to ever get them out. What you see and hear with respect to this case are the voices of people who subscribe to the bitterness ideology. Most don't need facts, data, or witness testimony--or only just enough to support their preconceived notions.

 

And if you stand up and say, "wait a second, what you fear and what you are saying just isn't true!". That's when what Matt observes comes into play. Intimidation and all manner of forces will be applied to keep you in line (shame, hatred, name calling--Uncle Tom, sell out, etc).

 

So that's the big problem I see in black America. Kudo's to people like Bill Cosby! He is among the few that reject these ideologies and boldly speaks out about what he sees and hears. Most simply remain silent figuring it just isn't worth all the backlash that will ensue if they testify to the truth of the matter.

[DiggerJim]

And a live Trayvon is better for us why? He was a bad man (not that cute 12 yr old they paraded the pictures of - the 17 yr old with a drug issue, assault record, wannabe gangster leanings, etc. as shown on his & friends' Facebook pages). Does anyone think he'd grow up & be a model or even productive citizen? Once he attacked GZ he crossed a line and miscalculated by picking someone who although smaller was able to defend himself.

 

James points out that the black mind looks at things through the lens of all of the innocent black men unfairly profiled and ultimately killed. Many white minds look at this through the lens of one more badass black hoodlum just like the hundreds of others that are in the paper every week who profile and kill the white, the young, the old, or the weak and go "good riddance".

 

GZ definitely profiled - we all profile every single day because that's how we can effectively & efficiently make our way through the world. We look at the nun or the little old lady and disregard them as potential threats (when walking....that same little old lady behind the wheel rises to threat status and we watch more carefully where & how she's driving so as to hopefully not be her hood ornament). A string of burglaries perpetrated by young black men does not suggest that to forestall future burglaries you focus on middle-aged white soccer-moms when keeping an eye out in the neighborhood.

 

The press is all about "See something, say something" and here's a case where someone saw something out of place in his neighborhood, said something and was jumped while walking back to his car. You can argue that he didn't need to follow the kid but the back story is that he & others in the neighborhood had often seen something and said something and by the time the cops came by the kids had run off.

 

Yes, I'm a white suburban guy who doesn't get profiled to my detriment (I often do to my benefit - there's a certain amount of privilege granted to well-dressed middle-aged men who are polite and low key when dealing with delayed airlines and missed flights LOL).

 

At the end of the day I'm waiting for the outrage to be directed to Cordell Jude for his killing of Daniel Adkins. But the colors are wrong so the "Reverends" Jackson & Sharpton are mute. And with all due respect to James, I don't believe they don't know that they're full of bs and are actively trying to raise a ruckus for no other reason than it enriches them.

[longjohn]

As far as I'm concerned this had nothing to do with anything other than Zimmerman's complete lack of role clarity as a neighborhood watch person.

 

The post of the thread hands down. Thanks Selden.

[OlGeezer]

Beemerman2k - I have NO IDEA how to fix the real problem you have illustrated. I will never know what the black experience is about. When I hear stories like yours, it saddens me. I think to myself "Why is this going on today"? The only thing I know to do is not to tolerate any experiences of prejudice I am exposed to. Other than that, I don't know what I can do about it. I don't know what we can do about it. I do know it would help a LOT if such a disproportionate amount of crime wasn't committed by young black men. Of course, it would also help if a disproportionate amount of unemployment wasn't committed by young black men. It would also help if a disproportionate amount of young black men didn't grow up in households without a father. It would help if potential role models like Kobe Bryant wouldn't stand with his wife in front of a microphone telling the world he didn't do anything wrong. Hell, if Kobe Bryant can bend a hotel employee over a chair, why can't I? I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point.

 

I think the Travon Martin incident was a tragedy. Travon is dead and Zimmerman will never have a normal life. Two lives wasted. I don't think getting rid of Stand Your Ground laws will change a future Travon Martin outcome. I don't think more gun laws would change a future Travon Martin outcome. I don't think riots in the streets would change a future Travon Martin outcome.

 

What I do think helps is to have questions like this discussed. I'm glad you started it. I hope it does some good.

 

[Matts_12GS]

Jim,

I think that you and James have bookended the racial experience here very well. Thanks both for this dialog.

 

I really think that what you've laid out is probably a 90th percentile reality, and the way you describe profiling can be applied to many areas of life from airports to restaurants to shopping and even to riding our motorcycles.

 

 

So, we have semi defined the edges, how to bridge the gap?

[motorman587]

This post was going good until police and Zimmerman was compared...........I am staying out of this, but found this. This man makes a lot of sense.

 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9CUNUVhzFAQ

[Huzband]

 

 

So, we have semi defined the edges, how to bridge the gap?

 

Learn from history instead of beating it like a dead horse at every contrived opportunity.

[motorman587]

Found this "stand your ground"..........

 

http://www.speroforum.com/a/ABTQXCNTFM32/73128-Black-woman-stands-her-ground-kills-white-man#.UeaKCsu9KSM

[Selden]

From the black mans point of view, the Trayvon Martin story rings true. From the white persons point of view, the Zimmerman story rings true. Right here is where the gap in our ability to understand each other exists.

I think that pretty much nails it. What was said by one person isn't the same as what is heard by another.

 

Add to this the persistance of bad information amplified by the internet and a 24x7 news cycle, and we end up with a gulf almost impossible to bridge. No matter how absurd, all these things are believed fervently by large numbers of people:

• Zimmerman stalked Martin because he was black
  
• Obama is a Muslim
  
• The CIA/Zionists were responsible for the 9/11 attacks
  
• The moon landings were faked on a sound stage
  

[Patallaire]

If, a person in a position of authority, lets assume as high as Holder, the Attn,y General, was white, went to a meeting like the NAACP, let's call it the NAAWP and suggested or said, as Holder did; that he instructed his children to watch out for Black Children who wear hoodies or pants down around their knees, and he said that on a National Stage, how outraged would the community be?

 

Does anyone else feel that was an inappropriate comment, or was it just me watching him pander and trying to change the facts of he law to introduce racial overtones into a verdict that was clearly not racial. Was he trying to carry on the "Victim" mentality that is so pervavisve? Or, am I just confused about what is correct to say and what is not correct.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

In all these cases where a black man is killed by a white cop, the narrative is pretty much the same: unarmed black man, who might have been less than bright, but otherwise doing nothing illegal, is killed by white police officer for what would appear to be non-lethal circumstances.

 

Think:

 

- Amadou Diallo, a west African immigrant shot multiple times by NYC police officers for reasons I never understood

 

- Oscar Grant, a young man at an Oakland (or was it Berkeley?) subway platform and shot in the back while being handcuffed by a white cop

 

- Gerald Bell, a young man killed by the police coming out of a night club in NYC

 

- DJ Henry, a Pace University(?) student shot by police in front of a night club

 

While I can't deny that there are some violently racist white folks out there, I'm frustrated by cases like these because it brings out vocally racist black folks who reflexively ascribe the worst possible motives to white people, giving them absolutely no quarter to make mistakes: if something went badly and a black person got hurt, it's never because the white person screwed up, it's always because the white person hates black people and intended to cause pain/suffering/death.

 

Amadou Diallo: The officers claimed the Diallo matched the description of a well-armed serial rapist, and that under the crappy lighting conditions they were dealing with, when he pulled out his wallet they thought he was drawing a gun on them. There was certainly some paranoia going on, and there's some question of whether they properly identified themselves as cops at the outset (OTOH, if they didn't, why did Diallo take out his wallet?). But is it really reasonable to believe that four white cops just capriciously decided "hey, let's go murder that black guy with a spray of (41) bullets"? Sadly, that's the narrative that was promoted by some folks in the black community. In the end, a mixed-race jury found all the officers not guilty, and Diallo's parents received a $3M settlement from the department.

 

Oscar Grant: Grant was face-down on the ground when he was shot in the back by Mehserle. There were dozens of eyewitnesses and a similar quantity of cell phone videos of the incident. According to every account, Mehserle said outloud, "I'm going to taze him," then he pulled out his gun and fired a single shot into Grant; immediately afterward, he expressed surprise/horror/shock at what had happened. Two competing narratives have been offered:

 

1. Mehserle, in a moment of feloniously tragic confusion, accidentally drew his gun instead of his tazer.

 

2. Mehserle, who had never had any accusations of racism or brutality directed against him in the past, hated black people so much that he decided to deliberately execute Grant; in his rage he was momentarily blinded to the fact that there were dozens of eyewitnesses and cameras.

 

In the end, a jury convicted Mehserle of manslaughter and he served jail time, and BART settled with the mother of Grant's daughter for $1.5M.

 

You mentioned Gerald Bell, but I think you meant Sean Bell. Like the Diallo case, there’s some question about whether the police identified themselves adequately at the outset, and there seems to have been some wild shooting going on (50 shots? Wow…). The officers were ultimately acquitted of criminal wrongdoing, and the victim’s families (and the survivors) received multimillion-dollar settlements from NYC. Guzman, despite receiving a $3M settlement, still believes black and hispanic men’s lives aren’t worth much in NYC.

 

Interestingly, the Wikipedia page on the Bell shooting doesn’t mention “race” or “racial” at all, and although Sharpton was involved in protests after the shooting, there’s no mention of the substance of his complaint. :confused: Was race a factor in this incident? Can anyone point to an incident involving white suspects that started out similarly and ended very differently?

 

DJ Henry: this is the first I’ve heard of this incident. Another chaotic mess, with one officer on the hood of Henry’s car firing at Henry (behind the wheel), and another officer firing at the officer on the hood. The cops may have been sloppy here, but were they racist? They’ve been cleared of criminal wrongdoing, but a civil suit is still pending; we’ll see what comes of that.

 

Racist cops are a liability. No doubt there are more than a few out there, but the shrillest cries of systemic racism strain credulity. It’s sad that some black people believe white folks are so universally and irretrievably racist that they would deliberately hire/tolerate police officers who murder black people, even if it costs taxpayers several million dollars in court costs, lawyer salaries, and settlement payouts every time it happens. It doesn’t make me feel good when I’m repeatedly told that a defining characteristic of being white is that I hate black people and want to hurt them.

 

One day back around '89 or so, I went into Lord & Taylor to buy some clothes for an interview. As I browsed the suits, I began to realize that two store guards were following me around! Of course, it's always an irritating experience. Eventually, I decided to simply go spend my money elsewhere. As I was leaving, about 20' from the doors to Boylston Street, I felt a bump on my left shoulder. A young black man bumped into me as he was running out of the store with an arm full of athletic clothing! The 2 security guards went in pursuit, and the young thief taunted them as he jogged faster than the guards could sprint. Anyhow, after seeing that I figured I'd cut the guards a break :smirk:

 

That sucks. Did it go

 

My point is that all these collective stories and experiences, along with history books and tales you learn from family and ancestors, all reinforce the picture in your mind that you can be as squeaky clean as you want to be, that promises you nothing (remember what I wrote about my younger brother and his experiences with the Cambridge Police, who acted "stupidly" , at T-Cell Sciences?).

 

Maybe I’m wrong for going point-by-point earlier in this post, and I should stick to this as your central thesis. If this is the case – that black people’s interpretations of all these events are so colored (!) by the past that they will see racism when there really is none, then can we ever move forward? To take one example, I’m pretty confident that race wasn’t a factor in the Grant shooting – but I’m equally confident that many years from now black folks will cite it as an example of white racism against black people, and use it to support the claim that white-on-black racism is still rampant.

 

I feel the same way about the TM shooting, i.e. race wasn’t a factor for GZ, but black people everywhere will say that TM was killed because he was black (and not because he was pounding GZ’s head into the sidewalk).

 

How do we get some people to stop seeing racism in situations when there actually isn’t any? The Boomerang clip I linked to earlier is comical because the store clerk actually is racist, but there’s an equally comical scene (

– caution, it’s PG-13) in which Martin Lawrence bitterly explains why pool is a racist game. That's comedy, but some days it seems like real accusations of racism are that ludicrous.

 

Being a people who are profiled less frequently, it's not something that is quite at the forefront of your mind like it would be with me were we all to gather as a group of BMW motorcycle riders at a given location. You bet it would be something that would be right on the edge of my mind. But since it's not a part of your experience, and George Zimmerman's viewpoint more closely mirrors your own stories, that's the perspective you find easier to believe.

 

Profiling does happen. Racist cops and racist citizens are out there. But why is profiling/racism seemingly a foregone conclusion whenever things go badly for a black person?

 

From the black mans point of view, the Trayvon Martin story rings true. From the white persons point of view, the Zimmerman story rings true. Right here is where the gap in our ability to understand each other exists.

 

So Joe Friday, the answer to your question is "yes"! The black narrative suggests that the verdict on George Zimmerman was unjust because we also find it easy to believe that Trayvon Martin was simply walking to and from the store fearing for his safety. The black experience says that Martin doesn't have to be up to criminal activity to mark him as a criminal in the eyes of Zimmerman. If Martin attacked Zimmerman, it is reasonable for the black mind to believe he feared for his life and therefore took the offensive.

 

Now, none of what I am saying excuses any of us from demanding facts, data, witness testimony, etc. Just because it fits a pattern doesn't mean mere appearances tell the whole story. So I engage in conversations like this one because I want to know what exactly happened that evening. Even still, if you pay attention to my writings, you see that I still have to combat media fed assumptions about both of these young men.

 

Your interest in facts/data/testimony is admirable. The most telling thing for me is that a jury of six heard all of the relevant facts/data/testimony and came back with a not guilty verdict. Why did that happen? Do black people think the (mixed-race) jury was racist? Stupid? Do they think the prosecution did a crappy job of making their case? Do they think the defense won on “bullshit” procedural/technical matters?

 

I realize how silly it is to ask you alone to speak for all black people everywhere, but I’m guessing you know and interact with more black people on a daily basis than I do, so I’m hoping you might have some insight.

 

I'm now having a hard time explaining to my daughter my very plausible theory that GZ drew his weapon first (out of fear, false bravado, and in way over his head), which prompted TM to wrestle him to the ground from the front in fear of his life, and flail away while also screaming for help.

 

The one piece of evidence against this theory was GZ’s early interviews with police. After he had explained the sequence of events to the police, one of them said (lying), “a security camera caught the whole thing, we’re retrieving the recording.” GZ was reportedly very relieved, and told the cops that the (nonexistent) recording would corroborate everything he had told them.

 

[beemerman2k]

As an ex-mod, allow me to say that we are kinda steppng over the line when we specify our political leaders in Washington. There are subtle, more savvy ways at saying the same thing, yet staying on this side of the line

[eddd]

...And a live Trayvon is better for us why? He was a bad man (not that cute 12 yr old they paraded the pictures of - the 17 yr old with a drug issue, assault record, wannabe gangster leanings, etc. as shown on his & friends' Facebook pages). Does anyone think he'd grow up & be a model or even productive citizen? Once he attacked GZ he crossed a line and miscalculated by picking someone who although smaller was able to defend himself...

 

 

I find this statement very offensive.

 

Should we round up all young men who you judge to have no value for "us" and get rid of all of them?

 

"Drug issue"..."wannbe gangster leanings" (whatever that means) of a 17yo is now enough for you to know he won't grow up to be a "productive citizen"?