The Trayvon Martin Case

[Roadwolf]

...And a live Trayvon is better for us why? He was a bad man (not that cute 12 yr old they paraded the pictures of - the 17 yr old with a drug issue, assault record, wannabe gangster leanings, etc. as shown on his & friends' Facebook pages). Does anyone think he'd grow up & be a model or even productive citizen? Once he attacked GZ he crossed a line and miscalculated by picking someone who although smaller was able to defend himself...

 

 

I find this statement very offensive.

 

Should we round up all young men who you judge to have no value for "us" and get rid of all of them?

 

"Drug issue"..."wannbe gangster leanings" (whatever that means) of a 17yo is now enough for you to know he won't grow up to be a "productive citizen"?

 

 

Thanks for diplomatically saying what I was thinking.... I couldn't believe what I had read and was dumbfounded... unfortunately, that is a prevailing pattern in this case... evaluating the worth of the victim because of his recent behavior. Just pathetic.

[tallman]

James,

Yes and no.

The AG did say what he said.

That's fact, not opinion.

 

If his actions, in public using the political position to advocate a POV contrary to the verdict isn't open for discussion...

 

shouldn't he (the AG) be using his position to bridge the gap rather than the direction he chose?

 

The office of the Governor was occupied yesterday.

The demonstrators spent the night.

Guv is out of state.

They pledge to stay and force him to call a special legislative session to repeal SYG law.

 

The discussion can not avoid the direction and polarization the

verdict has/will cause, just like OJ, IMO, especially if our fearless leaders continue to chime in.

 

Bridging the gap will never happen if some participants want to benefit from discord rather than espouse harmony.

 

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Well, given that I am no longer a mod, I cannot profile anyone as deserving a "high tech lynching" See? You can refer to govt personalities yet still stay this side of the line

 

But I just wanted to call attention to the rules. Don't want anyone to run afoul of the law around here :smile:

[10ovr]

James,

Yes and no.

The AG did say what he said.

That's fact, not opinion.

 

If his actions, in public using the political position to advocate a POV contrary to the verdict isn't open for discussion...

 

shouldn't he (the AG) be using his position to bridge the gap rather than the direction he chose?

 

The office of the Governor was occupied yesterday.

The demonstrators spent the night.

Guv is out of state.

They pledge to stay and force him to call a special legislative session to repeal SYG law.

 

The discussion can not avoid the direction and polarization the

verdict has/will cause, just like OJ, IMO, especially if our fearless leaders continue to chime in.

 

Bridging the gap will never happen if some participants want to benefit from discord rather than espouse harmony.

 

 

The AG is just a crony pushing for gun control,,,

[Matts_12GS]

 

Thanks for diplomatically saying what I was thinking.... I couldn't believe what I had read and was dumbfounded... unfortunately, that is a prevailing pattern in this case... evaluating the worth of the victim because of his recent behavior. Just pathetic.

 

How else can he be evaluated? Behaviors and actions are signs of his judgement. His judgements were poor, and they had dire consequences. Maybe if we were able to read his thoughts, oh wait.. We have transcript of those too in his "Creepy ass cracker" comment. He obviously had issues with folks with light skin.

 

Sounds like a hate crime was being committed when GZ defended himself with lethal force.

 

Everyone wants things to be peaceful, but really, the absence of conflict is not peace; only the resolution of the issue will bring peace. Like Tim and Mitch have said, there's never going to be a resolution here if some folks keep creating a boogeyman where he doesn't exist. They realize that if you aren't part of the solution, there's money in prolonging the problem. Like consultants!

[Roadwolf]

Matt, your are missing the point... you evaluate whether a person is better off dead or alive based on their actions... I evaluate whether they should be alive or dead based on this simple fact... they are a sentient human being... that alone dictates their worth... not what they do. Trayvon, a young man who had been in trouble, because of this behavior, doesn't disqualify himself from life and the pursuit of happiness. We don't know what he could have become... God, if this was the standard, then a lot of people on this board would've forfeited their right to a future, myself included. I wouldn't want to be judged in my entirety based on what I did at 17.

[upflying]

We can all recall instances where we were as innocent as one can be, yet still targeted, profiled, stopped (did I ever tell you the story of what happened to me within the first 10 minutes of owning my brand new 2000 BMW R1100RT? Yep, stopped by a Mass State Police officer who wanted to make sure the bike was legally mine. I was pissed!). So the narrative of this case rings very true to the black experience.

I would be interested in hearing more about this first hand experience. It's been my experience that prior to making a traffic stop, it is difficult to determine the race of a motorcycle rider who is fully ATGATT'D.

Could it be the MSP officer noticed your unfamiliarity in operating the new motorcycle and profiled you as a thief who recently stole the bike?

[beemerman2k]

Not likely, Bob. I was already a very seasoned motorcyclist with over 22 years of riding behind me when this occurred. I stopped at a traffic light and the cop was sitting in his car. I looked at him, he looked at me, and right then I somehow knew he was thinking something bad. Light turned green, I went on, and figured it was just my paranoia messing with my head. A moment later, though, I notice in my mirrors him coming up on me with lights blazing. WTF?!

 

When you purchase a new vehicle in Mass, you have 7 days in which to get a state inspection sticker on it--IF the dealership where you bought it doesn't do state inspections, which AJ Cycles in Gill, MA did not do at the time. The cop said he pulled me over because my bike didn't have the sticker. Although it was clearly a brand spankin' new bike, and I only had about 9 miles on the odo, he kept me there for quite a while as he thoroughly combed through all the paperwork from the sale.

[upflying]

Not likely, Bob. I was already a very seasoned motorcyclist with over 22 years of riding behind me when this occurred. I stopped at a traffic light and the cop was sitting in his car. I looked at him, he looked at me, and right then I somehow knew he was thinking something bad. Light turned green, I went on, and figured it was just my paranoia messing with my head. A moment later, though, I notice in my mirrors him coming up on me with lights blazing. WTF?!

 

When you purchase a new vehicle in Mass, you have 7 days in which to get a state inspection sticker on it--IF the dealership where you bought it doesn't do state inspections, which AJ Cycles in Gill, MA did not do at the time. The cop said he pulled me over because my bike didn't have the sticker. Although it was clearly a brand spankin' new bike, and I only had about 9 miles on the odo, he kept me there for quite a while as he thoroughly combed through all the paperwork from the sale.

Ok, the legal probable cause for the stop is the lack of an inspection sticker. You didn't answer the question about ATGATT, could your race be determined before you were pulled over?

[beemerman2k]

Although I was ATGATT, yes, he could clearly see my race. I was wearing a white, full face helmet, but yes, he could still see that I was a black man. It was a warm summer evening at about 7:30pm I would guess, my family was in a car behind me. He could see me because I was stopped, and he was sitting in his car maybe 20 feet away. He had a few minutes to look at me.

 

One thing to note, however, is that from where he was looking at me, he couldn't see my plate. So it wouldn't have been until I rode away that he saw that there was no sticker. Let me tell you what, though, I have never in all my life ever heard a motorcyclist mention they were pulled over by the police for lack of that sticker (nor car driver, either, for that matter).

[beemerman2k]

I think the idea is that I could tell he was *actively* looking at me, as opposed to what we all see in most cases, someone passively looking at us. It was the fact that I knew he was studying me that gave me the uneasy feeling that he was going to pull me over.

 

It's the people who are actively looking at you that you notice, and pay attention to. They are the ones for whom you want to know what their interest is--curiosity or something more impactful?

[upflying]

Ok, so MSP is parked at a right angle to where you were stopped and observed you in profile, in daylight, 20' away for an extended prior of time. And you feel he was able to determine your race because some part of your body was uncovered and exposed to the officer. Are you basing this assumption on your learned and preconditioned white LEO injustices against black men or are you basing this on some fact presented to you by the MSP officer?

From personal experience, I have made hundreds if not thousands of stops for missing or expired stickers. Ca has no inspection stickers but it does have registration stickers.

[10ovr]

Interesting the protests, supposed heavy weights giving their opinions, the hurt, the talk of racial injustice, all across the nation...where were these people when OJ Simpson was acquitted of murdering his wife and an innocent man...if I remember correctly (which I do) the black community was gleeful and excited and partied all across the nation. OJ beat the rap.

[Roadwolf]

Seriously, you ask this question without knowing the answer? It is pretty obvious why there was cheering and excitement of OJ being acquitted (and jury nullification in general).

[10ovr]

Seriously, you ask this question without knowing the answer? It is pretty obvious why there was cheering and excitement of OJ being acquitted (and jury nullification in general).

So if white people reacted like that to this trial how do you think black people would feel ???

[Roadwolf]

You seem to be missing the point... blacks would feel, as they have always felt historically... well, there goes the system as we have always seen it... (never mind the evidence against OJ or what they saw in it), the black man is found guilty and off he goes...

 

Or put it this way... there isn't enough time to list the myriad of white folks getting off with lynching, bombing, shooting, etc. a black man. That a black man apparently beat the system, in their eyes, what is good for the good is good for the gander. Turn about is fair play. That is the reason they rejoiced in my opinion.

[doc47]

One of the best articles I've seen on this case (Some of you will no doubt be outraged by it.):

 

Times Square

 

 

[1springer]

,,,and the search for justice continues...

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-07-16/news/os-george-zimmerman-doj-investigation_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-justice-department

[10ovr]

,,,and the search for justice continues...

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-07-16/news/os-george-zimmerman-doj-investigation_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-justice-department

This well be so one sided it makes me sick,,,You won't here any of the good,,Just the bad,,,,Fishing trip,,,,100% BS

[DiggerJim]

I find this statement very offensive.

 

Should we round up all young men who you judge to have no value for "us" and get rid of all of them?

 

"Drug issue"..."wannbe gangster leanings" (whatever that means) of a 17yo is now enough for you to know he won't grow up to be a "productive citizen"?

It wasn't meant to be offensive but to spark some thinking around the presumptions that are being displayed. The dialogue presumes that Trayvon's death is a bad thing. That's an understandable position if the death of all people is treated that way - for instance if James Holmes had been killed escaping the theater would we be saying "if the police officer shot to wound Holmes he'd still be alive today"? How about Eric Harris and Dylan Kebold who did in fact die during the commission of their crime? The poster that says if Zimmerman had stayed in his car Trayvon would be alive is just as one-sided as the one that says if Trayvon hadn't assaulted Zimmerman he'd still be alive. Why is one the foundation of the narrative and not the other?

 

I do believe some people forfeit their right to life by their actions. A 17 yr old should understand that.

 

I was not suggesting we round up people we (someone) believe to be of no "value". I don't think I said that.

 

I do believe it is extremely unlikely he would have grown to be a productive citizen. But I don't think I suggested that was a reason to kill him. The reason to kill him was he attacked a man who feared for his life and defended himself.

 

As for the characteristics I described, you can find the assault records, the medical report on the drug residue in his system as well as that found in his backpack and his Facebook photos where he's flashing gang signs and posting assault rifle pics and commenting on killing people to draw the conclusion that he had at least "leanings" - I don't know he was in a gang so did not say or suggest he was, just that he sympathized with them. None of which is a reason to kill him but all of which are certainly reason to believe he was not a nice little 12 yr old boy going out for Skittles as depicted in the press photos and the common narrative.

[Matts_12GS]

[

I do believe some people forfeit their right to life by their actions. A 17 yr old should understand that.

 

I was not suggesting we round up people we (someone) believe to be of no "value". I don't think I said that.

 

I do believe it is extremely unlikely he would have grown to be a productive citizen. But I don't think I suggested that was a reason to kill him. The reason to kill him was he attacked a man who feared for his life and defended himself.

 

 

That is the point I was trying to make as well

[Selden]

One of the best articles I've seen on this case (Some of you will no doubt be outraged by it.):

 

Times Square

"One cannot respectably deny the injustice of it, whatever the legality."

 

That's as good a summation as I have seen. I can't fault the jury's verdict -- Zimmerman appears to have "not guilty" beyond a reasonable doubt of the Florida SYG statute, as written. On the other hand in California Johannes Mehserle, an actual police officer rather than a cop wannabe like Zimmerman, was convicted of manslaughter for accidentally shooting someone with a gun instead of his taser. Neither case seems just to me.

[1springer]

What justice would satisfy you?

[Selden]

What justice would satisfy you?

It's probably an unanswerable question. Had Zimmerman been in California, and Mehserle in Florida, the outcomes might have been different. From my perspective, conviction for manslaughter seems more appropriate for Zimmerman than for Mehserle, but the respective juries decided otherwise.

 

In both cases, someone died. In one, the killer through his own actions put himself in a dangerous situation, but was acquitted; in the other, the killer appears to have made a simple mistake, was found guilty, and served time. Life is not always fair.

[1springer]

Your probably right. I was just curious what with a segment of the population and the media clamoring for justice I'm wondering what justice would satisfy them.

[Selden]

Interestingly, the much maligned Juror B37 had this to say (italics, mine) today:

 

"My prayers are with all those who have the influence and power to modify the laws that left me with no verdict option other than 'not guilty' in order to remain within the instructions. No other family should be forced to endure what the Martin family has endured."

[1springer]

Yes, interesting, wish I had seen the entire interview.

 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/17/zimmerman-jurors-request-privacy-in-statement/?intcmp=obnetwork

[beemerman2k]

Fantastic discussion. I have much to say about these issues, but for the most part I am reading and learning and thinking. I suppose I am asking myself many of the same questions many of you are asking. On one level, I do understand this racial divide, and on another level I suppose I do not.

 

I remember studying psychology in college and I learned a term called, "learned helplessness". I would have to say that we black folks suffer from that condition (to the degree that it is a legitimate condition--you know academia, everything is a disease in their eyes :smirk:). Learned helplessness, and FEAR (or are they the same thing?).

 

I have a lot to think about. Maybe the greatest question on my mind is this: why is it that matters of race are still such a hot topic to black Americans? One would think that in these modern times, the subject would mostly be all but dead by now. We have many highly visible people in power who are black from the President to past Secretaries of State to the Attorney General to talk show hosts and actors and head coaches and quarterbacks and, well, you get the point. Add to that the fact that the corporate workplace has to be as diverse as it ever was in history. Along with black Americans you now see people from India, China, the Middle East, Africa--all over the world! And as has already been mentioned in this thread, many of these immigrants are doing very well for themselves at every level of the economic spectrum from owning a corner store to occupying corporate board rooms.

 

[beemerman2k]

My goal in these discussions hasn't been to justify anything. My goal has been to share knowledge to assist in *understanding*, that's it. Not trying to convince anyone of anything, sell anyone anything, or to justify anybody's actions. I am simply stating what is and why it is, that's it. Should it be the way it is? That's a different subject than what I am talking about. What I value is understanding, not necessarily agreement or compromise.

[beemerman2k]

Bob, I have been pulled over by the police many times prior to June 23rd, 2000, the day I bought my BMW motorcycle, and a few times since. At no other time did I get the sense that my race played a factor in being ticketed. Yes, that cop could see my race; I'm not imagining things :smirk:

 

Now, did his stop have anything to do with my race? I can only suspect so, but I do not know. Perhaps if he could chime in, I'd learn a thing or two about that evening that would shed some light on how I interpreted what transpired.

 

And no, I do not believe white cops to be racists. In this particular case, I could see no reason that is at all consistent with my life and understanding of Mass law for him to pull me over. In that area, there are 2 motorcycle dealerships within a few miles of each other, a Honda dealership (which was at the very intersection where I encountered this officer), and AJ's Cycle about 3 miles to the east of where we were on Route 2 in Gill, MA. The odds are very high that brand new bikes without the inspection tag are going to be seen throughout the area. Also, my dealer was very surprised when I told him about the incident, so even he thought it unusual for a cop to pull me over for not having that sticker. Apparently, not many of his customers ever mention experiencing anything like that.

 

One thing I HATE is whining, crying, complaining, self pity, pity parties, and so on and so on and so on. I am not complaining! Even if that cop did pull me over because of my color, I am still not complaining. Life is NOT fair! The world is not a perfect place! I can accept that fact. At the same time, however, I am not going to pretend that such things aren't real or aren't a factor in a black man's life (maybe they're also a factor in non-black men's lives, too, for all I know!).

 

So that's my only point: profiling is real and it colors how one sees and interprets certain events, such as the incident in question in this thread. That's the only point I am making when I bring this incident up.

[beemerman2k]

So here's a question, and I ask in all sincerity. I ask myself this often and I have trouble coming up with an answer that I can accept that is also consistent with other principles I hold dear to.

 

Here's my question: let's say that you are George Zimmerman (my question, of course, predates this incident, but I will use it to illustrate my point), and your job is to be a neighborhood watchman. Since coming on board, there have been 10 breakin's in the neighborhood, 9 of which were committed by young black males.

 

- Is it "racial profiling" if from that point on you pay special attention to young black males walking through the neighborhood? Call it what you will, even I have to admit that if I'm the neighborhood watchman, I'm going to "racially profile"!

 

- Is it a legitimate example of "racism"?

 

- At what point does racial profiling add to the "racial divide"? I may be preventing burglaries, but am I adding to a greater problem--the idea that any sort of law enforcement is hostile to young black men?

 

- Who is ultimately responsible for this "racial divide"--the watchman who profiles or the young black men who commit the crimes?

 

- What of the innocent young black man and his "American experience"? Isn't he entitled to the same social respect all other young men enjoy? How do I profile criminals yet respect the rights of the innocent?

[10ovr]

I got a chance to go see Dr Ben Carson a few weeks ago ,,I we tell you I could have listen to this man talk for weeks,,,If he runs in 2016,,He has my vote,, I trust this man http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/ben-carson-zimmerman-verdict/2013/07/17/id/515562

[motorman587]

So here's a question, and I ask in all sincerity. I ask myself this often and I have trouble coming up with an answer that I can accept that is also consistent with other principles I hold dear to.

 

Here's my question: let's say that you are George Zimmerman (my question, of course, predates this incident, but I will use it to illustrate my point), and your job is to be a neighborhood watchman. Since coming on board, there have been 10 breakin's in the neighborhood, 9 of which were committed by young black males.

 

- Is it "racial profiling" if from that point on you pay special attention to young black males walking through the neighborhood? Call it what you will, even I have to admit that if I'm the neighborhood watchman, I'm going to "racially profile"!

 

- Is it a legitimate example of "racism"?

 

- At what point does racial profiling add to the "racial divide"? I may be preventing burglaries, but am I adding to a greater problem--the idea that any sort of law enforcement is hostile to young black men?

 

- Who is ultimately responsible for this "racial divide"--the watchman who profiles or the young black men who commit the crimes?

 

- What of the innocent young black man and his "American experience"? Isn't he entitled to the same social respect all other young men enjoy? How do I profile criminals yet respect the rights of the innocent?

 

try being a cop...........

[tallman]

James,

 

Given your 90% scenario I'm profiling.

Not because someone is black, but because in your scenario

it would be more likely to be a 90%er who is breaking the law.

So I'd pay more attention to 90%ers.

That isn't racism, IMO.

 

Now if it was totally unknown as to responsibility for the crimes

and I selected a group because I thought it more likely they were responsible (but no proof/data), then, IMO, racism.

 

"How do I profile criminals yet respect the rights of the innocent? "

Criminals and the innocent have the same rights, so not a problem.

 

[beemerman2k]

Good answer, Tim. Makes sense.

 

Damn good answer, John (motorman587)!

[Matts_12GS]

I think you are on the edge of epiphany James, facing some inconvenient truths if you will.

 

 

[bayoubengal]

One of the best articles I've seen on this case (Some of you will no doubt be outraged by it.):

 

Times Square

"One cannot respectably deny the injustice of it, whatever the legality."

 

That's as good a summation as I have seen. I can't fault the jury's verdict -- Zimmerman appears to have "not guilty" beyond a reasonable doubt of the Florida SYG statute, as written. On the other hand in California Johannes Mehserle, an actual police officer rather than a cop wannabe like Zimmerman, was convicted of manslaughter for accidentally shooting someone with a gun instead of his taser. Neither case seems just to me.

 

First my disclosure that I have been hit and miss following this thread so if this has been addressed my apologies. But why do people keep bring Stand Your Ground into this discussion. The defense did not use a SYG defense and this was not a SYG case. The AG waded into these waters but that's clearly politics. Never miss an opportunity to exploit a crisis, right? Now Stevie Wonder won't sing in FL until SYG is repealed? I find that laughable...

[motorman587]

Since Feburary 2012 11000 african americans males have died. 94% of them were killed by their own race............

 

http://t.mediaite.com/mediaite/#!/entry/from-serious-to-sensationalism-zimmerman-trial-shows-where-journalism-has,51e2c834da27f5d9d0f7b116

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I remember studying psychology in college and I learned a term called, "learned helplessness". I would have to say that we black folks suffer from that condition (to the degree that it is a legitimate condition--you know academia, everything is a disease in their eyes :smirk:). Learned helplessness, and FEAR (or are they the same thing?).

 

I'm pretty sure it's a real thing. Gladwell touched on this in Outliers, although he didn't name it. He described a difference of mindset between the affluent and the poor, wherein the affluent tend to advocate for their interests very vigorously, and the poor do so to a much lesser degree.

 

Seligman has written books about the subject, including this one, which I got most of the way through. The book is about learned optimism, but he spends a good bit discussing learned pessimism. Animal experiments have demonstrated this:

 

-give a well adjusted animal repeated shocks and offer a course of action to stop the shocks, and the animal will execute that action.

 

-give an animal repeated shocks and offer no way to stop the shocks, and after a while he learns there's nothing he can do. Then you can shock him all you want, and even when you offer a way to stop the shocks, he won't execute that action because he has learned a "why bother trying" attitude.

 

[beemerman2k]

I think you are on the edge of epiphany James, facing some inconvenient truths if you will.

 

Matt, I am more than ready to face some inconvenient truths. In fact, I count on conversations like this one to reveal to me perspectives that might just amount to some inconvenient truths. All I have to do is to look at the black community and I see a mess so great, suffering so deep, chaos and disorder reign, and there is no sense of direction. I am often reminded of the words of Habakkuk, the prophet, when he wrote:

 

You have made men like fish in the sea, like sea creatures that have no ruler.

 

I see young children without a decent childhood, or a home to feel safe in, or parents to admire and respect, or neighbors calling them higher. I see teenagers without direction or ambition or aspirations or even the thought that their lives are even capable of making a contribution to our society. I see young adults living aimlessly, procreating without a sense of responsibility or obligation. And perhaps most heartbreaking of all, these people collectively believe that George Zimmerman represents all that is broken about their lives.

 

In fact, that reminds me of yet another biblical passage:

 

The path of the righteous is like the morning sun, shining ever brighter til the full light of day. But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness; they do not know what makes them stumble.

 

This matter is way too dire for nice gestures and good feelings. I am old enough to remember what the aims of my ancestors were with respect to the Civil Rights movement. What I see today is an aberration so far afield of the aims of that movement that it's not at all the same animal. Not even close. The Civil Rights movement was about freedom and dignity. "I am a man" was the poster board held by protestors. They wanted the right to serve, to work, and to fight for their country. I don't recall ever seeing a Civil Rights rally based upon social services. Maybe they existed for all I know, but I don't know of any. It was a movement for the freedom to contribute in equal measure, not to take in unequal measure. What a bastardization we see today. In fact, earlier today I thought to myself, "strange, but many people in our society today more closely mirror the values of the Civil Rights founders than the vast majority of black leaders do". Today's great Civil Rights leaders aren't of the traditional mold, and although I am not aware of Dr Ben Carson, he may well be a far better representative of the spirit of the movement than most, if not all, the spokes persons who claim that mantle today.

 

This is a very sad time for black America. My heart breaks. Bill Cosby's heart really breaks! That's why he goes off like he does. He is not trying to punish, but to shake people out of their slumber and to get them to think about their lives and their values.

 

Yes, if I were King of the country, the word, "racism", would be stricken from our vocabulary. I would promote the idea that basically says, "if you cannot make it in America, you cannot make it anywhere!" Opportunity is so great here, so abundant here, that if you just shower, dress, and show up for work in the morning (on time would be nice, too!), odds are great that you have a career in whatever field you pursue.

 

So I am more than ready for inconvenient truths. I hunger for them! My feelings be damned, lets help our fellow Americans find the path of righteousness so to speak, and stop stumbling in darkness unaware of that which actually causes their downfall.

[bayoubengal]

So here's a question, and I ask in all sincerity. I ask myself this often and I have trouble coming up with an answer that I can accept that is also consistent with other principles I hold dear to.

 

Here's my question: let's say that you are George Zimmerman (my question, of course, predates this incident, but I will use it to illustrate my point), and your job is to be a neighborhood watchman. Since coming on board, there have been 10 breakin's in the neighborhood, 9 of which were committed by young black males.

 

- Is it "racial profiling" if from that point on you pay special attention to young black males walking through the neighborhood? Call it what you will, even I have to admit that if I'm the neighborhood watchman, I'm going to "racially profile"!

 

- Is it a legitimate example of "racism"?

 

- At what point does racial profiling add to the "racial divide"? I may be preventing burglaries, but am I adding to a greater problem--the idea that any sort of law enforcement is hostile to young black men?

 

- Who is ultimately responsible for this "racial divide"--the watchman who profiles or the young black men who commit the crimes?

 

- What of the innocent young black man and his "American experience"? Isn't he entitled to the same social respect all other young men enjoy? How do I profile criminals yet respect the rights of the innocent?

 

Last thing I want to do is offend anyone but James eluded to this area so I will expand.

 

I heard an interesting, unsubstantiated, stat today. Reportedly black Americans are approximately 13% of our population yet commit approximately 50% of all murders. Profiling is about perceptions. Wouldn't it go a long way towards improving perceptions if we improved this reality?

 

I fully acknowledge that lthough we have made huge strides in improving race relations, we have much room for improvements. I also acknowledge that my friends like James have experiences that I have not and hopefully we can learn from them. If there are biases in the justice system they should be addressed and fixed. But if the stats above are even close, what's really the tall pole in the tent? Is it possible that Dr. Cosby has more of the answers than Rev. Sharpton?

[1springer]

Do you believe your stats to be from a reliable source?

[bayoubengal]

Yes. Fox News.

[1springer]

You pose a good question(s) But I'm curious why the opening sentence?

[DaveTheAffable]

Do you believe your stats to be from a reliable source?

 

Thread has been interesting reading. This is the link to the FBI data...

 

 

FBI Data for 2010

 

So, I guess if you take the raw numbers, you can get whatever percentages per capita you get based on the U.S. population of each group in 2010.

 

BUT... as we all know... although numbers alone do not tell the whole story, they do tend to taint the public's perceptions.

[motorman587]

I can tell you the root of the problem. And that is low income housing, or the projects. Children that grow up in from broken homes and have no role models growing up. I remember a few years ago going to call near two low income housing apartment complexes. The call was about kids with BB guns. You would think or picture children shooting a soda cans. I stopped three young males. They were walking on the street. They did not have the BB guns visible, and when I stopped them. Once stopped and searched (please don't ask the issue about the stop it would be lengthy in words) the weapons where found in there waist band. It turns out they were practicing to be bad guys. They were practicing how to draw a weapon from the waist band area. They were about 10-12 years of age. I became a Daddy in 2004 and never realized what involvement it takes to be a parent. I.E. homework and being there for your family and children. This is what low income project children are lacking is a true a role model in there lives. I have no idea or way to solve the problem, but I know hating each other, blame others, is not the way to fix the problem. I think open discussions like this is a good start.

[beemerman2k]

I have no idea or way to solve the problem, but I know hating each other, blame others, is not the way to fix the problem. I think open discussions like this is a good start.

 

Another great post by motorman587. Yes, I like to believe these discussions are a good start as well. They benefit me a great deal, I can tell you that much. From here, I go out and challenge the thinking of others with what I learn from you all. This board is my secret weapon against hatred, bigotry (goes both ways you know), fear, learned helplessness, and anything else that keeps us from seeing each other as the dignified Americans we really are

[Rougarou]

 

Seligman has written books about the subject, including this one, which I got most of the way through. The book is about learned optimism, but he spends a good bit discussing learned pessimism. Animal experiments have demonstrated this:

 

-give a well adjusted animal repeated shocks and offer a course of action to stop the shocks, and the animal will execute that action.

 

-give an animal repeated shocks and offer no way to stop the shocks, and after a while he learns there's nothing he can do. Then you can shock him all you want, and even when you offer a way to stop the shocks, he won't execute that action because he has learned a "why bother trying" attitude.

 

These expirements were initially conducted by B. F. Skinner.....interesting reading and in looking at many facets of peoples lives and groups of people, seems to hold true.

[Selden]

One also needs to be careful about reading the FBI data closely. The first row breaks out murders by race:

 

White: 4,849

Black: 5,770

Other: 251

Unknown: 4,224

Total: 15094

 

The casual reader might conclude that the number of black murders is greater than the number of white murders, when in fact, this cannot be determined due to the large number of unknowns. Adding all together and determining percentages is equally meaningless, as 28% of the murders are race unknown. The only thing that can be determined is that the number of black murders is disproprtionately high.

[upflying]

So here's a question, and I ask in all sincerity. I ask myself this often and I have trouble coming up with an answer that I can accept that is also consistent with other principles I hold dear to.

 

Here's my question: let's say that you are George Zimmerman (my question, of course, predates this incident, but I will use it to illustrate my point), and your job is to be a neighborhood watchman. Since coming on board, there have been 10 breakin's in the neighborhood, 9 of which were committed by young black males.

Not reality since most burglaries are not witnessed.

- Is it "racial profiling" if from that point on you pay special attention to young black males walking through the neighborhood?

This is not the definition of racial profiling.

Call it what you will, even I have to admit that if I'm the neighborhood watchman, I'm going to "racially profile"!

Knowledge of a suspect description is not racial profiling

- Is it a legitimate example of "racism"?

An emphatic no

 

- At what point does racial profiling add to the "racial divide"? I may be preventing burglaries, but am I adding to a greater problem--the idea that any sort of law enforcement is hostile to young black men?

Racial profiling is when race becomes the only nefarious motivation for the interaction.

 

- Who is ultimately responsible for this "racial divide"--the watchman who profiles or the young black men who commit the crimes?

We are all responsible. Stereotypes, identity politics, taxes, gun control, entitlement programs, prison, broken families, generational influence, incarceration statistics, crime statistics, victimology, failure of education, recession, unemployment, 24/7 cable news, social media, talk radio, internet, movies, music, pop culture are all reasons for the racial divide.

 

- What of the innocent young black man and his "American experience"? Isn't he entitled to the same social respect all other young men enjoy? How do I profile criminals yet respect the rights of the innocent?

Embracing and adopting education, assimilation into society, respecting others, ethical behavior, hard work, high morals and traditional values are key for anyone wanting to earn social respect. Profiling works both ways. What does well groomed with coat and tie mean to you?

What does counter-culture convey to you?