The Trayvon Martin Case

[Peter Parts]

For some people, believing in facile cliches like "The Rule of Law" is an authoritarian cop out - as if laws or consitutions were created by some perfect being(s). Yes, everybody believes in the rule of law. Who doesn't?

 

But laws are rarely absolutely precise nor unambiguously apply to a specific case. Even with a growing body of jurisprudence behind them, laws have to be interpreted and adjusted for changing cases and times. And re-written when they no longer work for us.

 

So it is true to say that laws are being re-examined by public discussions which generally start in the media. And nowhere is that more obvious than in the the cowboy-fantasy "stand your ground" laws. Or the Second Amendment.

 

Ben

It's 5C degrees and I'm outta here (about 40F)

[beemerman2k]

 

 

I would appreciate it if you would.

 

 

Detroit public schools are not known for their academics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whip, consider this, between you and I, the Detroit public schools have certainly made an impact on this web forum

[Huzband]

Reasonable to think Zimmerman would be better off today if he had not toted his gun.

 

Ben

 

Yep. +1

 

I said it before, & I'll say it again.

 

Would you rather Zimmerman be dead having his head smashed against a side walk?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't think so.

[Huzband]

 

So it is true to say that laws are being re-examined by public discussions which generally start in the media.

 

Yes. And that is wrong. It 's not the media's job to determine law.

 

And nowhere is that more obvious than in the the cowboy-fantasy "stand your ground" laws. Or the Second Amendment

 

You live in Canada. You don't have our second amendment. You don't like guns or our second amendment. Fine.

 

What's your idea of self defense?

 

 

[moshe_levy]

What's your idea of self defense?

 

I understand (to some degree) the focus on self defense. I don't understand the total lack of attention that if you have a somewhat civil society, the need for self defense itself drops accordingly. Since you're speaking to a Canadian...

 

 

Now, I really don't understand why every graph I see says "minus black and hispanic" for the US. I don't know what that means, exactly. Obviously if they're leaving out black and hispanic crime, the US would look even worse in comparsion to Canada.

 

Note however, as brought up before, that Canada has more violent crime than we do in the form of stabbings and such. Strange.

 

So what's a good idea of self defense? You can't legislate this of course, but the world would certainly be a more wonderful place if everyone seriously studied formal self defense, as in true martial arts. There, they would learn patience, discipline, perseverance, self-reflection, meditation, widsom, sincereity, benevolance, bravery, and obviously a skill set that can come in handy on the off chance you meet somebody without these qualities. It's a lifetime of study, and it surely is a helluva lot harder than whipping out your Roscoe when you're scared of someone, but it changes you in a way that you don't have to fight in the first place.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

It looks like if ya don't wanna be stabbed, beaten or strangled you should get a gun.

 

 

 

 

 

[Huzband]

Graphs. They're for the naive.

 

In a life threatening situation, I'd rather have a pistol than a printed out stat.

 

So what's a good idea of self defense? You can't legislate this of course, but the world would certainly be a more wonderful place if everyone seriously studied formal self defense, as in true martial arts. There, they would learn patience, discipline, perseverance, self-reflection, meditation, widsom, sincereity, benevolance, bravery, and obviously a skill set that can come in handy on the off chance you meet somebody without these qualities. It's a lifetime of study, and it surely is a helluva lot harder than whipping out your Roscoe when you're scared of someone, but it changes you in a way that you don't have to fight in the first place.

 

Whatever.

 

Martial arts has its place. Been there, done that. I'll not brag on my level of perceived achievement. I fully understand the discipline. Again, I've been there.

 

But as much as I'm skilled in the lethal abilities of my Karate skills, I am equally skilled , & even more trained, in the use of my pistol.

 

While we train taking a gun from an assailant, you can't out run a trigger.

[upflying]

 

So what's a good idea of self defense? You can't legislate this of course, but the world would certainly be a more wonderful place if everyone seriously studied formal self defense, as in true martial arts. There, they would learn patience, discipline, perseverance, self-reflection, meditation, widsom, sincereity, benevolance, bravery, and obviously a skill set that can come in handy on the off chance you meet somebody without these qualities. It's a lifetime of study, and it surely is a helluva lot harder than whipping out your Roscoe when you're scared of someone, but it changes you in a way that you don't have to fight in the first place.

 

-MKL

 

Cops study and practice less than lethal defensive tactics twice a year. Control holds, take downs, arrest techniques, baton strikes, Taser, chemical agents, verbal commands, crowd control and a whole bag of tricks to get people to comply, stop resisting and go along with the program. Cops bring out the Roscoe only as a last resort.

I can tell you after studying this stuff for 30 years, instinct and the will to survive take priority over what is taught on a padded gymnasium floor.

Teaching martial arts is all fine and good but at 58 yrs old I no longer have a physical advantage over a 23 yr old chemically addicted thug.

[upflying]

Here is another viewpoint of the Trayvon incident.

http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/04/24/who_is_racist

[Whip]

Here is another viewpoint of the Trayvon incident.

http://townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/2012/04/24/who_is_racist

 

I was saving that.

 

 

 

[Roadwolf]

 

I said it before, & I'll say it again.

 

Would you rather Zimmerman be dead having his head smashed against a side walk?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't think so.

 

To take a page from those advocating for self defense and standing your ground... well, that may very well be just what Trayvon Martin would have been attempting to do in order to survive... so, yes, playing devil's advocate, to answer your question...

 

Yes.

[Huzband]

 

Cops study and practice less than lethal defensive tactics twice a year. Control holds, take downs, arrest techniques, baton strikes, Taser, chemical agents, verbal commands, crowd control and a whole bag of tricks to get people to comply, stop resisting and go along with the program. Cops bring out the Roscoe only as a last resort.

I can tell you after studying this stuff for 30 years, instinct and the will to survive take priority over what is taught on a padded gymnasium floor.

Teaching martial arts is all fine and good but at 58 yrs old I no longer have a physical advantage over a 23 yr old chemically addicted thug.

 

This

[beemerman2k]

It looks like if ya don't wanna be stabbed, beaten or strangled you should get a gun.

 

 

 

 

 

Never argue with Whip. You'll just end up laughing your butt off

[Huzband]

It looks like if ya don't wanna be stabbed, beaten or strangled you should get a gun.

 

 

 

 

 

Never argue with Whip. You'll just end up laughing your butt off

 

You should try spending the night with them.

[Whip]

It looks like if ya don't wanna be stabbed, beaten or strangled you should get a gun.

 

 

 

 

 

Never argue with Whip. You'll just end up laughing your butt off

 

You should try spending the night with them.

 

Could happen to anyone

 

[Huzband]

 

You should try spending the night with them.

 

Could happen to anyone

 

Yeah, but then there's the home cookin'.

[Whip]

 

You should try spending the night with them.

 

Could happen to anyone

 

Yeah, but then there's the home cookin'.

 

 

..and guns everywhere.

 

[moshe_levy]

All-

 

I wasn't advocating martial arts so much for self defense as for the mental side of learning to respect others and not use force unless necessary for defense.

 

I do see we have a crime problem and I do not disagree that firearms have their place in self defense. I'm aware it's a complex issue but at some point the root causes of why we have such a problem compared to other industrialized countries of our level of wealth and standard should be addressed.

 

-MKL

[longjohn]

Reasonable to think Zimmerman would be better off today if he had not toted his gun.

 

Ben

 

Yep. +1

 

I said it before, & I'll say it again.

 

Would you rather Zimmerman be dead having his head smashed against a side walk?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't think so.

 

Haha, I think you're assuming Z would have been acting the same without a gun as with. I disagree here.

[CoarsegoldKid]

All of this is conjecture. All we know for sure is Z killed T. Let the courts settle this. My take is Z on the sidewalk with head caved in is not likely. Without the firearm he would probably call 911 and stay out of the way. Instead with a gun he probably felt empowered and followed through. He may or may not have caused the encounter to go sideways. 47 pages my lord.

[beemerman2k]

All of this is conjecture. All we know for sure is Z killed T. Let the courts settle this.

 

You're right, we need to stop our conjecturing.

 

My take is Z on the sidewalk with head caved in is not likely. Without the firearm he would probably call 911 and stay out of the way. Instead with a gun he probably felt empowered and followed through. He may or may not have caused the encounter to go sideways. 47 pages my lord.

 

Wait a second, I thought you just chided us on espousing our opinions on this case, and that we are to let the courts decide, and then you go on and pick up where we left off

[Whip]

Joe did not go to Detroit public schools we should cut him some slack.

 

 

 

[tallman]

Whip,

I have a Detroit school system manual from 1935.

One of the biggest safety concerns was roller skating.

Times have changed...

[Shaman97]

Whip,

I have a Detroit school system manual from 1935.

One of the biggest safety concerns was roller skating.

Times have changed...

 

Obviously published by, and foisted upon the local black (or was it 'negro' back then?) population by the UAW, as a means of deterring and controlling choices in transportation. The UAW historically controlled the rubber wheels (tires) and 3-in1lubricant (oil) for these alternative transportation methods in Detroit, which contributed to Detroit's 'white flight', the construction of suburbs around Detroit necessitating the need for higher auto sales, increasing UAW wages and lucrative pension plans.

 

 

[Whip]

Whip,

I have a Detroit school system manual from 1935.

One of the biggest safety concerns was roller skating.

Times have changed...

 

Obviously published by, and foisted upon the local black (or was it 'negro' back then?) population by the UAW, as a means of deterring and controlling choices in transportation. The UAW historically controlled the rubber wheels (tires) and 3-in1lubricant (oil) for these alternative transportation methods in Detroit, which contributed to Detroit's 'white flight', the construction of suburbs around Detroit necessitating the need for higher auto sales, increasing UAW wages and lucrative pension plans.

 

 

 

Now THAT is a great hijack.

 

..mine have not worked...so far.

 

 

 

 

[upflying]

Yesterday I had my own little "suspicious person" encounter.

I am not an official neighborhood watch captain but my group of neighbors all have an informal understanding that we watch out for each other. I know my neighbors phone numbers as well as the patterns and habits of the residents in the neighborhood. I am also aware of some residential burglaries occurring in the area but not specifically within the area of my home.

At about 1130, I am in front of my home mowing the lawn when I see a lone male acting suspiciously. He was walking slowly on the sidewalk, taking abnormal interest in his surroundings and the homes. He disappeared down a court and then reappeared a few minutes later. He did not seem to have a purpose or destination and was acting like he was on drugs. He looked at me and continued slowly on his walking journey. I had seen him about 20 minutes earlier doing the same thing on a pedestrian trail a few blocks away.

I "profiled" this person as a meth user, also known as a "cranker" to some. He was white, tall, lanky, about 30 yrs old, goatee, rough complexion, long oversize white t-shirt, blue jeans and a gray baseball cap. I last saw him walking south on a side street.

I stopped the mower, went inside my home and grabbed the cell phone. I have Antioch PD's 7 digit non-emergency phone number in my phone list. A dispatcher picked up immediately and I explained what I saw.

About 20 minutes later, a patrol vehicle cruised by. Not sure what happened but I assume the APD officer cleared the call "GOA". The call would stick in the mind of the officer in the event a home burglary is reported later in the day.

Never once did it occur to me to grab my .380 and go confront this guy. No cover, no backup, no vest, no uniform, no radio, no taser, no baton and no OC. If he wasn't cooperative and docile, I would be in deep shyt. Persons with an altered state of reality have no feeling of pain and have "super human" strength.

Nope, off-duty I will just watch and let the on-duty hero's deal with him.

In hindsight,this is probably what Zimmerman should have done.

The real point of my story is the "profiling" was done without the component of race. Acting suspicious with possible criminal intentions is an equal opportunity employer.

[beemerman2k]

The real point of my story is the "profiling" was done without the component of race. Acting suspicious with possible criminal intentions is an equal opportunity employer.

 

Countless pages ago, I was going to suggest that we define "profiling". We all profile everyday all day. I have three daughters, you bet your boo-boo I'll be profiling every young man I meet who comes over to take my girls out. Profiling is a fact of life.

 

I'll even conceded that if we are honest, all of us factor race as a component of our profiling. That's not in the interest of exercising prejudice, but only because we want to assemble as many clues as we can to help us to assess the type of person we are evaluating. To ignore race as a factor when profiling, and especially for law enforcement to do so, is the stuff of fantasy land. We're my butt on the line, I am using every clue I can find to size up a potential problem person.

 

So when, exactly, is profiling actually a bad thing? I have my own answers, but I'd like to hear some others first if I can.

[upflying]

The real point of my story is the "profiling" was done without the component of race. Acting suspicious with possible criminal intentions is an equal opportunity employer.

 

Countless pages ago, I was going to suggest that we define "profiling". We all profile everyday all day. I have three daughters, you bet your boo-boo I'll be profiling every young man I meet who comes over to take my girls out. Profiling is a fact of life.

 

I'll even conceded that if we are honest, all of us factor race as a component of our profiling. That's not in the interest of exercising prejudice, but only because we want to assemble as many clues as we can to help us to assess the type of person we are evaluating. To ignore race as a factor when profiling, and especially for law enforcement to do so, is the stuff of fantasy land. We're my butt on the line, I am using every clue I can find to size up a potential problem person.

 

So when, exactly, is profiling actually a bad thing? I have my own answers, but I'd like to hear some others first if I can.

 

Profiling is not a bad thing as long as race is not the sole evaluation criteria. Profiling also goes beyond people. Cars, motorcycles, houses, schools and businesses can also be profiled.

Cops would be very ineffective at their jobs if they did not profile people.

[moshe_levy]

Profiling.... Where to begin???

 

Let me put it to you like this: Ever go on an El-Al flight? A Jewish airline, NEVER hijacked, because they take NO chances. Profiling? You betcha. There's no room for politics there because people taking an El-Al flight expect to be delayed, even interrogated if they don't look and smell the part of an Israeli coming to and fro. Don't like it? Tough - don't take El-Al. Look suspicious? You're going to spend a day in a small room being questioned, over and over. Them's the procedures. My wife, when backpacking around the world as a young 27 year old Irish-Hungarian girl who wouldn't harm an ant, was detained and interrogated for hours on end before being allowed to board a flight on El-Al. In this country, people would go nuts, because the actual probability of danger is so low, that the acceptance of the inconvenience is simply not there. In Israel, obviously, priorities are different.

 

What happens in this country... Well, I remember a particular flight back from Mexico City, circa 2002. Tensions were high. 9/11 was still fresh in everyone's mind. I had not shaved in about a week. People who know me know I look ethnic. I could pass for Italian, Greek, Israeli... Or Arab. Surely, unshaven, DEFINITELY for Arab.

 

Well, on a random search the TSA conducted for baggage search & pat-down that day (Continental, I believe,) they picked the lady next to me. A 90 year old Irish lady, with a walker, and an oxygen tank! I am serious! Here I am standing right next to her, and they pick HER! You would think as a civil libertarian I'd be happy. That this is PROOF that there is NO profiling, and no discrimination. It is, but it's also proof of abject stupidy and an an example of how to waste everyone's time in the name of political correctness.

 

I could sense my fellow passengers' unease and I spoke up about it. I said, in my best mock-southern accent, "Why are you looking at HER, and not at ME??" It got a few laughs, and diffused the situation since the elderly Irish lady was pretty upset too. But the truth remained - profiling has its place, and political correctness can defintely be the enemy of common sense.

 

Americans, thank God, by and large do not really understand what the constant threat of terrorism is, and what it can do to national psyche. We are in fact even divorced from the experiences of our own servicepeople, unfortunately. We're busy shopping at the mall and arguing about dog transport. We are NOWHERE near the point where people give up standing on principle against issues like profiling in the name of safety. Thank your lucky stars we can still argue about it. In some places, reality has a nice way of rendering such topics a moot point.

 

-MKL

[Peter Parts]

I'd like to add a few words to that valuable post from Moshe.

 

Two reasons that "unlikely" woman was singled out for further interrogation are (1) that the minimum-wage staff at the security barrier are unable to do any useful judging and (2) with sophisticated enemies, random selection is better than trying to out-guess terrorists. Likewise for the customs guys who open suitcases and waste everybody's time.

 

"Profiling" is an emotional word and often stands-in for some pretty unsavory and unprofessional police or Zimmerman's vigilante "stand your ground" behavior.

 

In defense of "profiling," the remarkable success of policing in New York City is strongly related to quite like profiling of neighborhoods and people. Scientific American had a great article about that a few months ago. Funny thing, the neighborhoods and people who benefited the most were those who were the nominal targeted people, except of course for the specific people who were.... um. um.... stopped for no specific reason.

 

I think it is not quite right to refer to the in-depth interviews that all El-Al passengers get as "profiling," Yes, stopped and questioned and judgment is applied. But not really a simple matter of skin color, wearing a hoody, shaving, or whatever.

 

Ben

[tallman]

Moshe,

 

And I might add, profiling happens every day in the USA.

It leaves a string of victims and dead bodies in its wake.

It costs hundreds of billions of dollars and untold damage to the psyche.

 

The profiling I refer to is that done by criminals as they select their victims.

 

That is terrorizing to many who see daily examples of crime.

Even "crimes of opportunity" usually have some element of profiling as the criminal uses their experience to determine a go/no go moment based on perception of victims weakness and chance of getting caught.

 

There is a county east of here that had extraordinary success interdicting vehicles loaded with drugs and cash on I 10. Criminals would attempt to move the contraband by vehicle and frequently get caught.

A success story?

Of course not as the courts ordered them to quit "profiling" even though nearly 100% of the bad guys fit a profile that was based on vehicle/license tag/appearance (carried weight) and finally driver's appearance/behaviour if stopped by LEO.

 

American sitizens who are afraid to let their kids play outside becasue of crime/violence/gangs are victims of terrorism IMO.

[upflying]

Moshe,

And I might add, profiling happens every day in the USA.

 

Legal racial profiling also happens everyday in the USA. It's called Affirmative Action.

[Roadwolf]

 

Legal racial profiling also happens everyday in the USA. It's called Affirmative Action.

 

An imperfect but honest attempt used to end the last vestiges of legal racial profiling called Jim Crow and used to this day to keep institutional racism in check. Okay by me.

[brennaman]

 

Legal racial profiling also happens everyday in the USA. It's called Affirmative Action.

 

An imperfect but honest attempt used to end the last vestiges of legal racial profiling called Jim Crow and used to this day to keep institutional racism in check. Okay by me.

 

That appears to be how most feel, till it is you that are passed over for a job when you were more qualified for the position.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,517448,00.html

[Jaguar]

There is a county east of here that had extraordinary success interdicting vehicles loaded with drugs and cash on I 10. Criminals would attempt to move the contraband by vehicle and frequently get caught.

A success story?

Of course not as the courts ordered them to quit "profiling" even though nearly 100% of the bad guys fit a profile that was based on vehicle/license tag/appearance (carried weight) and finally driver's appearance/behaviour if stopped by LEO.

 

 

I clearly remember the illegal profiling of motorists years back. I clearly remember the cases rightfully being thrown out of court. I know of two cases of illegal profiling from that time. A friend of mine that I worked with. We worked in the Daytona area and he lived in Flagler County, about 30 - 35 miles north. He was driving home up I-95 one day after work when he got pulled over. Oh, he is Mexican and drove a van. He came to work the next day, and his van was ripped to shreds. The wall linings, the carpet floor, the ceiling lining all tore off and they found nothing. Justified???

After the said State Trooper that started this whole profiling mess became Sheriff of Volusia County, there was a watering hole in Deleon Springs called Art's Place. Art rode a BMW. Just a home town beer bar that The Sheriff and his merry band of Deputies were convinced were peddling drugs. So they raided Art's Place. All employees and customers were thrown to the floor with guns drawn. After searching everyone, they tore Art's bar to pieces. When they found nothing, they tore his house apart, right behind the bar. You guessed it! they found nothing. Then they dragged Art off to jail, something about resisting crap.

Sorry, there is nothing that you can say that can ever justify police profiling. It's all fun and games when bad guys get busted, but, if you're not a bad guy and get harassed. Well, Sucks To Be You!!

[DiggerJim]

Well, on a random search the TSA conducted for baggage search & pat-down that day (Continental, I believe,) they picked the lady next to me. A 90 year old Irish lady, with a walker, and an oxygen tank! I am serious! Here I am standing right next to her, and they pick HER! You would think as a civil libertarian I'd be happy. That this is PROOF that there is NO profiling, and no discrimination. It is, but it's also proof of abject stupidy and an an example of how to waste everyone's time in the name of political correctness.

Actually it could be argued that it was profiling in action. In an environment where it's extremely unlikely to come across another airplane bomber - remember the last couple were white guys, not arabs btw. Of the hundreds of millions of passenger boardings in the last decade only a couple were responsible for terrorist acts...statistically near zero chance anyone he saw that day was a terrorist. The TSA agent can pick the lady or pick you. He picks you & it's virtually certain you're not a terrorist. But, it's not that certain that you aren't rich, a lawyer, son of either of those or a judge/senator/congressman and then he's going to be accused of profiling and lose his job. Or he picks the lady who is also virtually certain not to be a terrorist and suffer none of the above mentioned potential consequences. On a nearly infinitely rare occasion he made the wrong call, you were a terrorist, he let you board and you hijack the plane. No one will know who exactly failed to question you & they all have the "we can't profile" defense...not their asses that got blown up.

 

So, in the 3 possible situations he has a real possibility of personal distress & harm only in the one where he pulls you aside. In the personal calculus of decision-making, he made the right call.

 

[Ken H.]

So when, exactly, is profiling actually a bad thing? I have my own answers, but I'd like to hear some others first if I can.

I don’t think the problem is profiling, I think it is stereotyping. There’s a difference.

 

Developing sophisticated models of human actions and characteristics for the purpose of predicting behavior (usually but not always undesirable behavior) is what I would call profiling. It has been acceptably used forever. Everything from predicting what cereal you will buy, to highly sophisticate anti-terrorism algorithms. The Israelis in particular are world renowned for their sophistication in this area. It is generally useful as long it is not used illegally. (Redlining in real-estate comes to mind.)

 

Stereotyping OTHO is much more generalized, unsophisticated and usually based in little or no scientific fact or hard data. Just a general assumption that someone who is abc is xyz. And almost always with a negative conation. It serves no useful purpose IMHO. Indeed it is almost always harmful.

 

[Selden]

Apparently some Sikh programmers, after being profiled one time too many by TSA screeners, thought "There ought to be an app for that." And now there is: Civil rights groups to unveil new mobile app to report racial profiling.

[tallman]

There is a county east of here that had extraordinary success interdicting vehicles loaded with drugs and cash on I 10. Criminals would attempt to move the contraband by vehicle and frequently get caught.

A success story?

Of course not as the courts ordered them to quit "profiling" even though nearly 100% of the bad guys fit a profile that was based on vehicle/license tag/appearance (carried weight) and finally driver's appearance/behaviour if stopped by LEO.

 

 

I clearly remember the illegal profiling of motorists years back. I clearly remember the cases rightfully being thrown out of court. I know of two cases of illegal profiling from that time. A friend of mine that I worked with. We worked in the Daytona area and he lived in Flagler County, about 30 - 35 miles north. He was driving home up I-95 one day after work when he got pulled over. Oh, he is Mexican and drove a van. He came to work the next day, and his van was ripped to shreds. The wall linings, the carpet floor, the ceiling lining all tore off and they found nothing. Justified???

After the said State Trooper that started this whole profiling mess became Sheriff of Volusia County, there was a watering hole in Deleon Springs called Art's Place. Art rode a BMW. Just a home town beer bar that The Sheriff and his merry band of Deputies were convinced were peddling drugs. So they raided Art's Place. All employees and customers were thrown to the floor with guns drawn. After searching everyone, they tore Art's bar to pieces. When they found nothing, they tore his house apart, right behind the bar. You guessed it! they found nothing. Then they dragged Art off to jail, something about resisting crap.

Sorry, there is nothing that you can say that can ever justify police profiling. It's all fun and games when bad guys get busted, but, if you're not a bad guy and get harassed. Well, Sucks To Be You!!

 

 

That isn't the county I refer to, and, all the incidents involved cars vehicles being stopped, no raids.

The court cases resulted from a criminal caught in the act, not an innocent BMW rider.

AFA any actions in Volusia, I'm sure they have access to courts there to correct any abuse of authority.

[tallman]

Profiling.... Where to begin???

 

Let me put it to you like this: Ever go on an El-Al flight? A Jewish airline, NEVER hijacked, because they take NO chances. Profiling? You betcha. There's no room for politics there because people taking an El-Al flight expect to be delayed, even interrogated if they don't look and smell the part of an Israeli coming to and fro. Don't like it? Tough - don't take El-Al. Look suspicious? You're going to spend a day in a small room being questioned, over and over. Them's the procedures. My wife, when backpacking around the world as a young 27 year old Irish-Hungarian girl who wouldn't harm an ant, was detained and interrogated for hours on end before being allowed to board a flight on El-Al. In this country, people would go nuts, because the actual probability of danger is so low, that the acceptance of the inconvenience is simply not there. In Israel, obviously, priorities are different.

 

What happens in this country... Well, I remember a particular flight back from Mexico City, circa 2002. Tensions were high. 9/11 was still fresh in everyone's mind. I had not shaved in about a week. People who know me know I look ethnic. I could pass for Italian, Greek, Israeli... Or Arab. Surely, unshaven, DEFINITELY for Arab.

 

Well, on a random search the TSA conducted for baggage search & pat-down that day (Continental, I believe,) they picked the lady next to me. A 90 year old Irish lady, with a walker, and an oxygen tank! I am serious! Here I am standing right next to her, and they pick HER! You would think as a civil libertarian I'd be happy. That this is PROOF that there is NO profiling, and no discrimination. It is, but it's also proof of abject stupidy and an an example of how to waste everyone's time in the name of political correctness.

 

I could sense my fellow passengers' unease and I spoke up about it. I said, in my best mock-southern accent, "Why are you looking at HER, and not at ME??" It got a few laughs, and diffused the situation since the elderly Irish lady was pretty upset too. But the truth remained - profiling has its place, and political correctness can defintely be the enemy of common sense.

 

Americans, thank God, by and large do not really understand what the constant threat of terrorism is, and what it can do to national psyche. We are in fact even divorced from the experiences of our own servicepeople, unfortunately. We're busy shopping at the mall and arguing about dog transport. We are NOWHERE near the point where people give up standing on principle against issues like profiling in the name of safety. Thank your lucky stars we can still argue about it. In some places, reality has a nice way of rendering such topics a moot point.

 

-MKL

 

"mock southern accent" to be funny?

Some might see a bias/prejudice/stereotype in that comment just as they might if someone posted

about using their mock jewish accent if taken aside in Tel-Aviv.

It was Mexico City flight, why not a Mexican accent and hat dance?

Obvious reasons why not.

Prejudice is prejudice and I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but isn't that often what someone says after the fact?

Not being personal, I hope, just asking if you can see why some might find any use of another group's characteristics by someone out side the group in public, not where people are paying to see someone do so ala the many comics who use accents/dialects or regional humor to entertain.

A passenger on a public conveyance isn't a paid public entertainer, IMO.

[Jaguar]

The court cases resulted from a criminal caught in the act, not an innocent BMW rider.

 

A success story?

Of course not as the courts ordered them to quit "profiling" even though nearly 100% of the bad guys fit a profile that was based on vehicle/license tag/appearance (carried weight) and finally driver's appearance/behaviour if stopped by LEO.

 

HUH?? What???

 

[upflying]

So when, exactly, is profiling actually a bad thing? I have my own answers, but I'd like to hear some others first if I can.

I don’t think the problem is profiling, I think it is stereotyping. There’s a difference.

When someone on this forum jokes about cops and donuts, do I get to scream and whine "stereotyping"?

[pbharvey]

So when, exactly, is profiling actually a bad thing? I have my own answers, but I'd like to hear some others first if I can.

I don’t think the problem is profiling, I think it is stereotyping. There’s a difference.

When someone on this forum jokes about cops and donuts, do I get to scream and whine "sterotyping"?

 

 

As soon as you finish your donut, go right ahead

 

By the way 99% of the lawyers give the rest of them a bad name. I'm (mostly) kidding

[moshe_levy]

Prejudice is prejudice and I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but isn't that often what someone says after the fact? Not being personal, I hope, just asking if you can see why some might find any use of another group's characteristics by someone out side the group in public, not where people are paying to see someone do so ala the many comics who use accents/dialects or regional humor to entertain.

A passenger on a public conveyance isn't a paid public entertainer, IMO.

 

It was a tense situation, and I was the guy people were looking at as the potential "terrorist" that should have been searched. So put that in your head as the context, and then see why a really over the top accent WOULD be funny. It was funny enough to put everyone at ease, even the TSA people who were cracking up.

 

Were the reverse to happen, and you showed up looking like Roy Rogers but sounding like Woody Allen, who knows... Might get a couple of chuckles yourself!

 

-MKL

[tallman]

The court cases resulted from a criminal caught in the act, not an innocent BMW rider.

 

A success story?

Of course not as the courts ordered them to quit "profiling" even though nearly 100% of the bad guys fit a profile that was based on vehicle/license tag/appearance (carried weight) and finally driver's appearance/behaviour if stopped by LEO.

 

HUH?? What???

 

 

That same county arrested one of "America's Most Wanted" criminals a couple days ago.

Traffic stop which led to removing this incestuous child molester from the streets and protecting

our children from this monster.

 

I'm sure some will call this profiling.

[Jaguar]

That same county arrested one of "America's Most Wanted" criminals a couple days ago.

Traffic stop which led to removing this incestuous child molester from the streets and protecting

our children from this monster.

 

I'm sure some will call this profiling.

 

So, what you're saying is the cops made one stop and nailed one child molester.

I say they probably made (pick any number) 10 - 20 - 50 - 60 illegal profiling stops and "BINGO", we got a child molester.

[upflying]

That same county arrested one of "America's Most Wanted" criminals a couple days ago.

Traffic stop which led to removing this incestuous child molester from the streets and protecting

our children from this monster.

 

I'm sure some will call this profiling.

 

So, what you're saying is the cops made one stop and nailed one child molester.

I say they probably made (pick any number) 10 - 20 - 50 - 60 illegal profiling stops and "BINGO", we got a child molester.

 

How exactly do you profile or stereotype a child molester? What do they look like?

While we are on the subject of traffic stops, how do you profile the driver? In most cases, the LEO can't see who is driving. Reflections, tint, darkness, weather, speed, distance and interior obstructions makes it difficult to see in a car.

I will verify cops profile vehicles that are violating the law. Are you implying that type of profiling is illegal?

[Whip]

Inspector Callahan was very good at

[StuGotz]

 

If two vehicles, both tinted windows, both expired reg. tags :

 

(1) a 2010 BMW 7 series

(1) a 85 Cutlass with 28" wheels

 

Ya pulled over the Cutlass.

 

I think ya profiled.

 

MB>

[pbharvey]

Inspector Callahan was very good at

 

 

..."I think he's got a point"