The Trayvon Martin Case

[upflying]

Not guilty but Z has a lot more to worry about on the civil side.

 

As he should.

 

True enough, but the affirmative defense of self-defense applies with equal force in a civil case:

 

776.012/8195;Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony....

The big difference is proof beyond a reasonable doubt on the criminal side and only a preponderance of the evidence on the civil side..OJ Simpson for example.

[Mike]

Not guilty but Z has a lot more to worry about on the civil side.

 

As he should.

 

True enough, but the affirmative defense of self-defense applies with equal force in a civil case:

 

776.012/8195;Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony....

The big difference is proof beyond a reasonable doubt on the criminal side and only a preponderance of the evidence on the civil side..OJ Simpson for example.

 

True, but who committed the underlying homicide is not at issue, as it was with OJ. Self-defense applies with equal force in both criminal and civil cases in Florida. Zimmerman may be ultimately held civilly liable, but the same defense is available on the civil side.

[beemerman2k]

I posted the below on Facebook. The significance of this case centers around the extreme emotions it provokes; it taps into the greatest fears and concerns of both the black and white mind. Our fears and concerns differ, but we're going to have to find a way to get them both on the same page, and invested in the same set of national ideals and values.

----------------------------------

 

I used to work at Hayden Library on the campus of MIT. This job paid for my undergraduate education at Northeastern University. I would get off work late on Friday and Saturday nights, and I would have to run to catch the last bus to Dudley Station in the heart of Roxbury, MA, Boston's inner city neighborhood. I'd get there at around midnight, and from there I'd take a cab to my apartment in Hyde Park.

 

During that time, I knew that I could be shot at anytime, by anyone, while I was in Roxbury at that time of night. I also knew that had I been shot, I would have been simply labeled a victim of gang crime, tagged, bagged, and summarily forgotten about. No investigation. No detectives. No inquiry. Business as usual. Fortunately, it never happened.

 

The constant reinforcement of the worthlessness of a black human life is the outrage you see expressed tonight on Facebook, and around the nation. The worth, the social credibility, the resources poured into justice for white life oftentimes does not follow for black life, regardless of the station of that now deceased black life. My younger brother, who was a medical doctor involved in both AIDS and cancer research, did an internship at T-Cell Sciences in Cambridge, MA in 1991. He would often complain to me about being followed by the police when he left his research lab in Cambridge, MA late at night.

 

Black life is often regarded as highly disposable and extremely invaluable by our society. That Trayvon Martin could be killed under circumstances such as this one, yet no one is held criminally responsible, is highly inconceivable to the black mind--especially when we know of a litany of our own relatives who were hung, imprisoned, and marginalized for far far less. FAR less!

 

"So Jim, are you saying that George Zimmerman should have to pay the price for all that gross injustice?" No, that's not what I am saying. George Zimmerman should have to pay the price for his own actions, just like Trayvon Martin did.

 

Alas, but life is not fair, is it?

 

I just get sick with the knowledge that if I were on my way home from MIT, and a George Zimmerman happened to kill me, that much of the nation would be celebrating Zimmerman's stand for justice. Why would they be so sure his actions were right? Because all he did was to kill a black man--and we all know what black men are up to--no good, right? Even if the black man in question is an MD doing research at T-Cell sciences.

 

This is the extent of the racial divide that we must come to close in this country. Hard truths all around for everyone to have to swallow, white as well as black (this whole mostly black youth, anti-American subculture that degrades women, white Americans, fellow black citizens, law enforcement--all that nonsense has to GO!).

 

I hope that we can all find common ground by rallying around the ideals and principles that our nation was founded upon, and then ALL Americans insist that everyone--without exception--be held to a common standard of responsibility, and a common standard of rights. In any case, ALL of our collective hopes are bound by the very work begun by our exceptionally, incredibly enlightened forefathers. This is my hope.

 

I wish I was the one who died that night, and not Trayvon Martin. And I wish that the result of my death inspired a greater, more just nation where everyone felt a sense of belonging, responsibility and rights. Giving my life for my country is not a tragedy, it's an honor! Everything we enjoy today was paid for by someone's blood. I would consider it an honor to join that select group of Americans.

 

We can all honor both of these young men by working toward this American ideal.

[bayoubengal]

Thanks beemerman for sharing a perspective I had not considered. You always do have a thoroughly logical way of sharing info.

[SuperG]

Beemerman2K,

 

I am sorry to call you out on this, your post above.

When I clicked on page 1 of this topic, First post, these are your words, rules.

-------------

Important: since I am starting this thread, I get to set some rules.

 

"1) Terms like "racist", "racism", or "hate" cannot be applied to anyone who posts thoughts in this thread! While these conditions of the heart grip us all (us ALL), we must be able to look past such characterizations and see the validity in everyone's point of view. I think people often hesitate to express themselves for fear of being so labelled, which does not serve anyone.

 

2) We all post to this thread keeping in mind that this is no game. A young life was lost, and another young life, one that volunteered his time to serve his community, is on the verge of being lost. No matter how you look at this, it is an American tragedy.

 

This case is going to be tried in a court of law, what would you like to see happen as a result of this trial?"

---------------

 

You stated not to bring race into the topic, but it seems when you mention the value of black or white life it just centers around it. (edit)--> I could be wrong here... or it may be too late and my brain is not comprehending things correctly. If that is the case I do apologize.

 

I, As a person who was born and raised in Europe may not have the racial - lets call it "tension" -that some Americans feels or have, whether black or white.

I simply see no reason to bring race into the the final outcome of this case which was decided by a mixed race and gender jury.

To me Zimmerman - the name has German origin - but to me he always looked Hispanic rather then white.

 

Using your scenario mentioned above in your post, If I would have got shot midnight, being a person with an indiscernible European accent, may have been called a non-American.. I don't think anybody would care, regardless of my skin color.

 

This is the American justice system. Its decision is not always welcomed by its citizens, be it the the OJ case or Casey Anthony.

[beemerman2k]

Thank you for the challenge. I always welcome challenges to anything I say. Challenges present opportunities for understanding, so they are always appreciated by me.

 

My intent was simply to explain the WHY behind the gap that exists between the races. We have different experiences, and therefore we interpret reality from a different vantage point. That's what I view as the "racial divide" in America, the gap between the vantage points in our understanding.

 

I am certainly not proclaiming that my, or my people's point of view is correct or "truth", I am only proclaiming that it is reality.

 

I view Zimmerman's "crime" as being simply this: he was told by the police to stand down as it were. He chose not to obey the order, and therefore, he owns the outcome.

 

When I was coming home from MIT, as I mentioned in my essay, my life was in far greater danger by my fellow black men than it was by any George Zimmerman. That, too, is reality.

 

In any case, I love my country and everyone in it. Those of us who love this place have work to do, that's really all I am saying. Black youth own this tragedy as much as anyone. All this rap crap about cop killers and so forth makes me want to puke. There are big planks in the black eye for sure.

 

But we're not interested in the black eye alone, we are interested in continuing the work that our founders began not so long ago. This case tells us all that we have work to do. So let's all get busy.

 

The best thing I think we can all do is this: "Seek first to understand, then to be understood" - St. Francis of Assisi

[SuperG]

The person at the 911 call center advised him not to escalate the situation. It was stated that 911 personnel can not make decisions on behalf of the caller or give a lawful order as a police offer would do so.

Unfortunately thing did escalate btw the parties. Things can get out of hand quickly btw a zealous adult and a teenager.

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Thanks beemerman for sharing a perspective I had not considered. You always do have a thoroughly logical way of sharing info.

 

Thank you. Your encouragement means a lot to me.

 

If what you say is true, I have to attribute it to the incredible, overwhelming respect I have for the people who make up the USA. My country is outstanding! The character, the values, the aspirations of our people reveal the best that is in the human heart.

 

No one intends to be racist, or sexist, or whatever. OK, maybe some do, but far and away the vast majority of Americans do not. Including George Zimmerman. We are far more committed to our national ideals and values than our own petty grievances. This is what I see, everyday, in the USA.

 

But in our ignorance of the experiences of others, we sometimes are insensitive to the ways in which our system might not be serving all without partiality. For those of us who are under served, we have work to do. We must ourselves, first honor the values of our nation, and then we must call others to honor those values as well. For those of us for whom the system does work, we have the same job before us--work to promote the values of our nation, and to call all to honor those values without partiality.

 

But I really do believe that the default action of every American IS to honor those values! And it's not just "belief", I see it every day, all day, and even on this forum.

 

Dr King often discouraged words that disparaged our Southern, Segregationist brothers and sisters. He would often say, "these are great and noble Americans, who are simply wrong on the race question". I can see why he took that stand. These so-called "racists" were busy giving their lives so that all of us could live free! Dr. King knew this, appreciated this, and felt a debt of gratitude for their sacrifices.

 

I think the world of my country, and of everyone in it, regardless of race, gender, or whatever. We are all united behind a common, and highly noble cause: the elevation of the individual over and above whatever group that person may belong to. We all want to see everyone judged by a common standard--no preferences!

 

I love the USA. This place, even with all it's problems, ROCKS

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I view Zimmerman's "crime" as being simply this: he was told by the police to stand down as it were. He chose not to obey the order, and therefore, he owns the outcome.

 

As was mentioned, the 911 dispatcher suggested "we don't need you to follow him," but it wasn't an order. Don't know if that matters or not.

 

I suspect you don't believe Zimmerman stepped out of his car that night with intent to kill, and is therefore innocent of murder. But given your quote above, would you have convicted him of manslaughter? That is, would a reasonable person have foreseen that getting out of the car was a wreckless act that was likely to lead to a situation that necessitated lethal self defensive measures?

 

 

[beemerman2k]

That's the only area of the night that I personally hold in question, Joe Friday. He acted alone, against the advice of the dispatcher. Therefore, in my opinion, he has to assume responsibility for the outcome of his actions. This is part of the accountability we need to hold ourselves to if we are going to bear arms, we must depend on those guns for self defense only. They are not a device that allows us to actively place ourselves in harms way, and then resort to the self defense plea when we have to start shooting.

 

I have heard it argued that Martin should not have reacted to being followed by turning to violence. Good point. But Zimmerman should not have been following to begin with. Had Martin killed Zimmerman, we'd be looking at a manslaughter case. Zimmerman killed Martin instead. But yes, I would have preferred manslaughter as the charge and not murder.

 

Neither of these young men intended for that night to happen. A series of poor, testosterone fueled decisions that spiraled out of control--that's what ultimately happened that night.

[Whip]

No law against watching/following. I follow folks around my stores and even on Alamo Plaza every day if I think they are up to no good. I call the police and stay on the phone while I continue to follow them. All times of day and night.

 

In this case the crime was the punch to the face during the confrontation.

 

 

 

 

 

[eddd]

I'm getting in here for the first time with a few of my thoughts.

 

First off I respect the jury's findings. They decided the on evidence and within the framework of the law. I think Zimmerman was "guilty" of poor judgement, prejudging, and over-reaction, but he wasn't charged with those things. He did something terrible, and I had all along wished there was something he could be charged with that would stick and serve as a deterent to those who might act in a similar manner.

 

But the thing I find really disturbingly sad is those who see the verdict as any type of victory or see Zimmerman as some sort of "hero". Trayvon was not on trial, but when you read and listen it is evident that there is a segment of people that seemed to think he was.

 

At the very least I would hope that the Stand Your Ground and Self Defense statutes would be rewritten to make it less likely that there would be a repeat of this type of situation.

 

And I'm in agreement with James in that there should be a greater accountabilty for any outcome that results from a decision to be armed.

[upflying]

What do you see in this photo?

 

1. Is this a hip young man who identifies himself with popular culture?

2. Is this a man carrying a firearm under his T-shirt?

 

Trayvon Martin identified himself as #1.

George Zimmerman would see #2.

 

Our racial divide is perpetuated by stereotypes learned from attitudes, popular culture and race hustling politics. Until we solve that, this country will always be separate and unequal.

[Roadwolf]

What do you see in this photo?

 

1. Is this a hip young man who identifies himself with popular culture?

2. Is this a man carrying a firearm under his T-shirt?

 

Trayvon Martin identified himself as #1.

George Zimmerman would see #2.

 

Our racial divide is perpetuated by stereotypes learned from attitudes, popular culture and race hustling politics. Until we solve that, this country will always be separate and unequal.

 

Don't always agree with you Bob, but on this, there is much truth in this.

[upflying]

What do you see in this photo?

 

1. Is this a hip young man who identifies himself with popular culture?

2. Is this a man carrying a firearm under his T-shirt?

 

Trayvon Martin identified himself as #1.

George Zimmerman would see #2.

 

Our racial divide is perpetuated by stereotypes learned from attitudes, popular culture and race hustling politics. Until we solve that, this country will always be separate and unequal.

 

Don't always agree with you Bob, but on this, there is much truth in this.

Thanks for the compliment, much wisdom learned from law enforcement.

[LandonBlueRT]

Prosecutors almost seemed relieved it's over, like they were saying, "now you can blame the jury not us".

Quick jury decision suggests the deliberation consensus was easy. In the 35 yrs I've been around criminal cases, prosecutors usually don't charge cases they can't prove. Waste of time and money to do so.

Knowing they had a weak case, why would the DA charge second degree murder?

 

If I remember the case correctly, when there was no immediate arrest and it became politically and racially charged a special prosecutor was appointed who made the charge of second degree murder. It was not made by local authorities or by a grand Jury.

 

[SuperG]

+2 about what Bob said, it is spot on.

 

While drinking my morning coffee i have been quietly thinking about our conversation with beemerman2 last night.

I applaud you for your assessment, about what you wrote and feel about the value of human life, specifically based on race.

We can all agree that value of a human life should be the same regardless of color, age, gender or race.

But we can all agree that there is an unwritten hierarchy (with all living things) when it comes this value of life and it is geographical/cultural with humans. In the USA this hierarchy is created by its citizens. This hierarchy would be different in Europe, in India or in Africa.

 

People shoot/kill each other for different reasons, and this case was highly publicized because of the age - teenager vs adult- and race white/Hispanic vs. black.

 

Pertaining to this very case...what is troublesome is the "right to defend yourself with deadly force". And when the line to do so is crossed.

As a CHL -concealed handgun license holder my self have argued/questioned my licensing instructor; when is it right to use deadly force?

Ending up with a black eye in a fight warrants pulling out a gun because I am afraid that having a black eye could change into brain injury/death upon receiving more beating? Is a robbery - a wallet with $80, worth pulling a gun out? will this robbery end up with me being stabbed with a knife?

 

This is why Travon vs.Zimmerman case is not clear cut.

The jury have decided the outcome based on evidence provided and presented to convince those in the jury box. Race, age, gender, color should not be relevant.

 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

But yes, I would have preferred manslaughter as the charge and not murder.

 

Are you aware that the jury was allowed to consider manslaughter (that happened a couple of days before the verdict), and they also found him not guilty on that charge?

[beemerman2k]

Yes, I am aware that the jury considered the manslaughter charges as well.

 

I can only speak to the emotional pain a case like this has to the black mind. This case resonates with our memories, experiences, and stories we were told by ancestors in our upbringing.

 

George Zimmerman should not have to pay for all the times when black men were hung on flimsy evidence and questionable circumstances. He deserved his day in court, and he got it. Good for him, that's the way the system works.

 

Bob ("upflying") has certainly nailed the problem with respect to the credibility of black youth today. Youth like this fan the flames of the racial divide; it is not at all good for our country or for the credibility of young black men.

 

I agree with what you said, Bob, 1000%

[Skywagon]

I would like to take a combination of Bob's and Whip's post a little further. I call it what about this picture doesn't fit. I don't care man or woman, adult or juvenile, white, black, green, etc....if the picture for the environment is out of character for the situation....I am going to profile...nope not the color, the situation. Example. I live near Rice University in Texas. I ride motorcycles obviously...but if a 1% came through, we would pay attention. If I were to walk into a neighborhood full of youth dressed like Bob posted and came in my coat and tie...I promise you I would be profiled. The picture just wouldn't fit. I really am sick and tired of hearing the race word when the situation doesn't go like we hope. Those innocent jurors went through a lot. They gave to their community the best they had to offer...Suggesting they got it wrong is wrong.

 

Did Zimmerman escalate the situation..most likely although none of us was there. Should he have waited for the police unless in imminent danger...of course......does that make him a racist..We will never know and if you jump to the conclusion he is..you are just as guilty of being a racist or promoting racism as you are of accusing him of being a racist.

 

[Couchrocket]

As far as I'm concerned this had nothing to do with anything other than Zimmerman's complete lack of role clarity as a neighborhood watch person. He was either unable (doubtful) or unwilling (probably) to abide by the parameters set for his responsibilities.

 

He was stupid, stupid, stupid. Quite possibly arrogant, arrogant, arrogant. And his stupidity and arrogance and unwillingness to stay within his proper role is the "first cause" of this tragedy.

 

The rest of it was typical media spin, and conflation of facts with racial stereotypes (in all kinds of directions) as well as a combination of real public concern-come-outrage being co-opted by people with an agenda (from all sides - where there shouldn't even BE sides) attempting to manipulate and trump the judicial processes in place.

 

Whether Martin was a good kid, a troubled kid, a bad kid had ZERO to do with this. That would have been properly sorted out by the police had they been able to do their job without Zimmerman's completely outrageous behavior preempting their proper role. Zimmerman is probably properly not guilty of 2nd degree murder - but he's certainly guilty of 1st Degree Stupidity and Arrogance and has no business being involved in any endeavor that requires good judgment and following simple instructions and protocols.

[SWB]

I posted the below on Facebook. The significance of this case centers around the extreme emotions it provokes; it taps into the greatest fears and concerns of both the black and white mind. Our fears and concerns differ, but we're going to have to find a way to get them both on the same page, and invested in the same set of national ideals and values.

----------------------------------

 

I used to work at Hayden Library on the campus of MIT. This job paid for my undergraduate education at Northeastern University. I would get off work late on Friday and Saturday nights, and I would have to run to catch the last bus to Dudley Station in the heart of Roxbury, MA, Boston's inner city neighborhood. I'd get there at around midnight, and from there I'd take a cab to my apartment in Hyde Park.

 

During that time, I knew that I could be shot at anytime, by anyone, while I was in Roxbury at that time of night. I also knew that had I been shot, I would have been simply labeled a victim of gang crime, tagged, bagged, and summarily forgotten about. No investigation. No detectives. No inquiry. Business as usual. Fortunately, it never happened.

 

The constant reinforcement of the worthlessness of a black human life is the outrage you see expressed tonight on Facebook, and around the nation. The worth, the social credibility, the resources poured into justice for white life oftentimes does not follow for black life, regardless of the station of that now deceased black life. My younger brother, who was a medical doctor involved in both AIDS and cancer research, did an internship at T-Cell Sciences in Cambridge, MA in 1991. He would often complain to me about being followed by the police when he left his research lab in Cambridge, MA late at night.

 

Black life is often regarded as highly disposable and extremely invaluable by our society. That Trayvon Martin could be killed under circumstances such as this one, yet no one is held criminally responsible, is highly inconceivable to the black mind--especially when we know of a litany of our own relatives who were hung, imprisoned, and marginalized for far far less. FAR less!

 

"So Jim, are you saying that George Zimmerman should have to pay the price for all that gross injustice?" No, that's not what I am saying. George Zimmerman should have to pay the price for his own actions, just like Trayvon Martin did.

 

Alas, but life is not fair, is it?

 

I just get sick with the knowledge that if I were on my way home from MIT, and a George Zimmerman happened to kill me, that much of the nation would be celebrating Zimmerman's stand for justice. Why would they be so sure his actions were right? Because all he did was to kill a black man--and we all know what black men are up to--no good, right? Even if the black man in question is an MD doing research at T-Cell sciences.

 

This is the extent of the racial divide that we must come to close in this country. Hard truths all around for everyone to have to swallow, white as well as black (this whole mostly black youth, anti-American subculture that degrades women, white Americans, fellow black citizens, law enforcement--all that nonsense has to GO!).

 

I hope that we can all find common ground by rallying around the ideals and principles that our nation was founded upon, and then ALL Americans insist that everyone--without exception--be held to a common standard of responsibility, and a common standard of rights. In any case, ALL of our collective hopes are bound by the very work begun by our exceptionally, incredibly enlightened forefathers. This is my hope.

 

I wish I was the one who died that night, and not Trayvon Martin. And I wish that the result of my death inspired a greater, more just nation where everyone felt a sense of belonging, responsibility and rights. Giving my life for my country is not a tragedy, it's an honor! Everything we enjoy today was paid for by someone's blood. I would consider it an honor to join that select group of Americans.

 

We can all honor both of these young men by working toward this American ideal.

 

James,

 

I appreciate your heartfelt sentiments on this case, and fully understand your comments about how it feels to be a black man and know that it puts a "target" on your back as a potential threat to non-blacks. That's not right, it'll never be right, and it has to change.

 

Then again, I've heard from a few black friends I've known over the years that THEY fear black-on-black violence in black neighborhoods that they don't feel in non-black neighborhoods. The problem isn't just perception, but the reality in terms of percentages of black men who get into trouble with the law (putting it politely). One can "politic" an issue all day long, but when it's you, or your son, daughter, or wife facing a knife or gun, politics ends and reality kicks in.

 

Incidentally, I live in an area where the face behind that threat is more likely to be Hispanic than black, and by "threat" I mean multiple shootings and deaths at a park a block away from my house. But, a threat is a threat, and if that threat can be "profiled" or generalized to improve threat recognition, people will do it. ALL people will do it. It's a normal and generally wise self-preservation practice. Then again, I've had to defend my property once without a gun and and my family once with a gun, and both preps were white, so there ya go.. profiling doesn't guarantee safety. Threat awareness and a handgun go along ways ...

 

Second, as an aside, I'm the only "white" in my family. My wife and kids all have brown skins. I haven't got a racist bone in my body.

 

Third, I well understand how the black community feels about T.M.'s death, i.e. they can certainly can identify with being marginalized in ways you have described in your post, marginalized by profiling, and from their perspective, any time their teenage kids leave the house, they realize that what happened to T.M could happen to their own kids. They identify with the Martin family at a very visceral level.

 

However, there's something the black community and liberals need to understand as well. I could be Zimmerman or Zimmerman could be my son. I could be watching a suspicious character from my pickup truck on the way home, and have. I could have exited my pickup truck to look for a street sign, because after 25 years at my home, I still forget the names of the streets adjoining my own. I can't carry a handgun due to California's anti-second amendment laws making a CCW permit almost unobtainable, but I could be carrying none the less, I could have been attacked, blindsided, violently beaten to the ground, and have had to fight for my weapon and ultimately, for my life. I could be Zimmerman, could have defended myself, only to see my reputation systematically destroyed in the media and by African American (or in my case, Hispanic) advocacy groups. As Zimmerman's life is at risk if not over (who'd take a risk in hiring him for a job now??), so also could mine, or my son's.

 

The EVIDENCE proves Zimmerman innocent, in every way that evidence could. Even if one took the worst case scenario, that perhaps Zimmerman followed T.M. with an intent to personally apprehend or even kill, that he did so with malice (racist or other), that T.M. was in fear for his life and struck first with the only weapons he had, be it his fists, gravity, or concrete, Zimmerman WAS STILL entitled to defend himself. Unless Zimmerman struck T.M. first, there is no case against him. "Following" is not assault. "Profiling" is not assault. "Words" are not assault. Striking a man repeatedly is assault. Zimmermans wet back and T.M.'s wet knees, Zimmerman's head injuries and T.M.'s bloodied fists, the eye witness account, the 911 phone calls, the police interviews Zimmerman did WITHOUT lawyers four times (I'll be he'll never do that again) and the observations by experienced law enforcement ALL supported Zimmerman's account. The jury didn't find Zimmerman innocent; the evidence did.

 

In fact, T.M. had multiple opportunities to disengage from the perceived "threat" of Zimmerman. He had 5 minutes or more to walk a half block home. He could have remained hidden. He could have left after knocking Zimmerman down (T.M. didn't know Zimmerman was armed, or he wouldn't have assaulted him). For whatever reason, sadly, T.M. chose to attack, to sustain and continue the attack, and Zimmerman felt he had no choice other than to fire his weapon. The EVIDENCE shows Zimmerman's remorse over the act, i.e. killing another man is the last thing he wanted to do. It's a tragedy to be sure.

 

Giving T.M. every benefit of the doubt, Zimmerman's shoot was still justified. If T.M. were my son and Zimmerman were a black ex-felon, it would change nothing. However, when 95% or more of black Americans think that justice can ONLY be served by railroading Zimmerman into a 2nd degree murder or manslaughter conviction, then we're done here. There will NEVER be any peace between thee and me. I will NEVER sacrificially offer up any person's life or liberty for same of "community harmony" or "justice", because it would be unjust.

 

Zimmerman's 16 month prosecution was a travesty of justice. EVERY man or woman who takes on the responsibility of carrying a firearm much less using it against another human being MUST be held accountable for their actions. In fact, Zimmerman was held accountable during the initial investigation, and the shoot was determined to be justifiable self defense. However, that wasn't good enough for the T.M. supporters (not just black Americans, but most of the liberal anti-gun left has echoed that call for "justice"). They had to bankrupt the man, to put him through 16 months of hell, to have his very life at risk, to justify their own blood-lust. Now, they're talking about a Federal civil rights case.

 

I want the world that Martin Luther King spoke of, "I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.". I was brought up color blind. I was certainly color blind during my time in the Navy. My own family is interracial. I'm not perfect, but I don't have a racist bone in my body. The question I have is when will black Americans seek the same thing MLK desired. When will their actions match their words? When will they vote for a "white cracker" over a black man? When will they support justice for the man, black or white, over justice for the black man?

 

Slavery and the post 1880 Jim Crow laws are an ongoing national tragedy. America's original "marriage" of 13 colonies, in my opinion, was a marriage of convenience against the real threat posed by England and the other European powers. America's first 13 states had a heterogeneous culture from the beginning, and slavery was one of those unresolvable issues that was ignored when the Constitution and Bill of Rights were originally written.

 

To be blunt, the slavery and Jim Crow compromise was a sin that this country may always have to bear. Overt racism is something we will always have to combat. However, that does not justify black racism against whites, black violence in general, or the conviction of an innocent man because the perpetrator of the assault he defended himself against, was black.

 

I want peace in this country, and fellowship with my fellow Americans, regardless of color or creed. However, I will not sacrifice my principles to that goal. I will not give up my God given rights ratified by the Bill of Rights and US Constitution, including my right to bear arms and right of self-defense.

 

There is an ocean of difference between my position and again, if polls are correct, that of 95% of black Americans and 35% of liberal Americans in general. I didn't create that divide, nor can I breech it. A thousand prayer vigils or marches won't change that, because in Zimmerman, there but for the grace of God, go I.

 

Scott

[Marty Hill]

Scott. Wow, what a well thought out response. I'm with you 100%.

[lawnchairboy]

200%

[Whip]

As far as I'm concerned this had nothing to do with anything other than Zimmerman's complete lack of role clarity as a neighborhood watch person. He was either unable (doubtful) or unwilling (probably) to abide by the parameters set for his responsibilities.

 

He was stupid, stupid, stupid. Quite possibly arrogant, arrogant, arrogant. And his stupidity and arrogance and unwillingness to stay within his proper role is the "first cause" of this tragedy.

 

The rest of it was typical media spin, and conflation of facts with racial stereotypes (in all kinds of directions) as well as a combination of real public concern-come-outrage being co-opted by people with an agenda (from all sides - where there shouldn't even BE sides) attempting to manipulate and trump the judicial processes in place.

 

Whether Martin was a good kid, a troubled kid, a bad kid had ZERO to do with this. That would have been properly sorted out by the police had they been able to do their job without Zimmerman's completely outrageous behavior preempting their proper role. Zimmerman is probably properly not guilty of 2nd degree murder - but he's certainly guilty of 1st Degree Stupidity and Arrogance and has no business being involved in any endeavor that requires good judgment and following simple instructions and protocols.

 

 

I read the transcript of the trial every night. I don't remember any evidence of the "completely outrageous behavior".

 

Unless you mean letting TM get too close?

 

What did I miss?

 

I don't get the arrogant part either?

 

No evidence of that in the transcripts either?

 

I think I read every single witness's testimony.

 

The police believed

 

[beemerman2k]

This forum never fails to deliver fantastic material.

 

Great thoughts, everyone. I am a much wiser, more understanding man because of your sharing of your heartfelt perspectives.

 

I am going to keep reading and contemplating what is shared here. But let me say a heartfelt thank you to all who have shared. By opening up your heart, you are doing a lot to close the racial divide insofar as it exists in my heart. And to me, that's important.

 

First of all, I want a healthy heart, so by freeing me of my mental and emotional chains, you help to set me free. Secondly, I want my fellow black Americans to be free as well, so to the degree that I can articulate different perspectives, maybe I can help to shed understanding, which leads to healed hearts and racial reconciliation.

 

So thank you, all. Please, keep it coming

 

[beemerman2k]

By the way, the only way the so-called "racial divide" will ever be bridge is by the honest, heartfelt sharing of perspectives, mixed with a healthy dose of listening and learning. Agreement or the compromising of ones principles is not at all necessary, understanding is all that's necessary.

 

Once you have understanding, it's all downhill from there.

[ericfoerster]

Understanding is really subjective at some point. I recall the Simpson trial and cheers that went up after he was set free. I don't remember people taking to streets to find justice for Ron and Nicole. They are all but forgotten at this point to the general public.

 

It is our system. I am not sure there is a better one out there within the free world.

 

It is obvious at this point that the defense did a better job of presenting the case. In the end they won the jury over.....just like the super team did.

[longjohn]

Not guilty but Z has a lot more to worry about on the civil side.

Ummm, according to this website and article the Florida law prohibits the deceased's family from bringing a civil suit against Zim, sadly.

 

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2013/02/11995/anniversary-trayvon-martins-death-alec-backed-stand-your-ground-laws-remain-books

 

"This means prosecutors must disprove a killer's assertion that they felt threatened, as opposed to the shooter having to establish they acted reasonably and in self defense. It also bars the deceased's family from bringing a civil suit."

 

If the people who disagree with the verdict really want to change things they should work to change the ALEC sponsored laws (like the stand your ground laws ) .

 

ALEC is the American Legislative Exchange Council, funded by corporations and responsible for sponsoring laws like Stand Your Ground law, voter suppression laws, and laws that harm consumers and workers.

 

Public pressure caused many big corporations to abandon alec last year. See a partial list here: http://unitedrepublic.org/alec/

 

 

[SteveHebert]

James and Scott,

 

Your two very lengthy posts are the best written and most intelligent pieces I have ever read on the subject of racial divide and imbalance. Thank you both for your very personal insight without the political over tones that the rest of America is spouting now. You should both carry this to the national level. It is truly inspiring and helps me to really understand the continued racism here that I fear will never go away.

 

Respectfully,

[Couchrocket]

I read the transcript of the trial every night. I don't remember any evidence of the "completely outrageous behavior".

 

Hi Whip!

 

What I'm referring to as outrageous behavior has nothing to do with anything that happened once he left his vehicle in direct contradiction to specific instruction from law enforcement. His doing so is what was outrageous and arrogant IMO, and the initiating event in something that would never have happened had he been willing to function within the appropriate parameters of his role.

 

Having been involved in managing a public safety agency for many years, I've come across this type of inability to grasp and embrace role clarity more often than you might suspect. It is often accompanied by an "apparent" genuine interest and zeal for public safety, but is extremely dangerous and more bound up in the individual's overblown sense of self than proper concern for the public welfare and the good order and discipline of the safety agency and its personnel.

 

As I said, IMO he is stupid, stupid, stupid and arrogant, arrogant, arrogant. And equally sad is that he doesn't know it and can't see it.

 

 

[1springer]

After viewing the video whip posted (

) I wouldn't consider him arrogant nor stupid.

[Whip]

Hey Scott

 

Help me out. I am missing your point.

 

I don't see any arrogance or stupidity in his action.

 

 

"direct contradiction to specific instruction from law enforcement. "

 

The trial transcript does not support this assumption.

 

 

What did I miss?

 

 

 

[SWB]

As I said, IMO he is stupid, stupid, stupid and arrogant, arrogant, arrogant. And equally sad is that he doesn't know it and can't see it.

 

Hi Scott,

 

A suggested correction: Proper syntax should be "he was stupid ...", i.e. past tense, as Trayvon Martin is unfortunately deceased. I wouldn't call Trayvon Martin stupid and arrogant, that's pretty harsh. He was brash and like many young men, probably felt indestructible, and was ignorant of the potential consequences of his actions. It's just unfortunate that he chose to assault Zimmerman, and that he died due to his act.

 

Of course, I knowingly took your comment out of context to make a point. Ascribing "stupidity" and "arrogance" to Zimmerman is a fairly hateful bias coming from some place other than the evidence. All the evidence about Zimmerman indicates he had a genuine concern for individuals in his community. In different circumstances, such as one where Zimmerman was not being beaten upon by T.M., Zimmerman might have reached out to Trayvon to welcome him and help him out. Could you imagine the conversation if no assault had occurred? T.M. explains that he just moved into the neighborhood, that his house is just 400 feet away, and that he was just walking home from the market. Zimmerman introduces himself, shakes T.M'.s hand, apologizes for the misunderstanding, and welcome's him to the neighborhood. He even adds "Hey Trayvon, next time you need something let me know. I was just heading over to Target and you could have rode along - maybe next time, huh?". Friendly smiles and butt pats all around. That's what normal "neighbors" due, even if they unexpectedly bump into each other late a night.

 

Zimmerman didn't follow or assault or shoot his other neighbors, and as far as I recall reading, NO ONE in his neighborhood felt threatened by Zimmerman or his neighborhood watch activities. If not for the assault, the police would have been along within 10 minutes anyway, and it could have been a constructive meeting between neighbors. That assumes, of course, that T.M.'s actual intentions that evening were not criminal, which is a pretty generous assumption given the brutal, 40 second assault he delivered upon Zimmerman.

 

You said that as a public employee for a safety agency, you've "come across this type of inability to grasp and embrace role clarity" with involved citizens. What is the citizens proper role, and how did Zimmerman overreach when serving "overwatch" for his neighborhood, protecting his neighbors, or in assisting law enforcement? I would assume that the crux of your concern was that he legally carried a handgun. I would suppose you feel that law enforcement and weapons should be left to the trained LEO's, and citizens should limit contributions to financial ones made to police benevolence funds. I think that Whip and I will always be in disagreement with you about that, i.e. the Second Amendment thing, but that's for another thread (on another forum).

 

Which of Zimmerman's actions were "arrogant and stupid"? In fact, Zimmerman violated no order from the dispatcher. In fact, he was very responsive to every question from the dispatcher. He had decided to return to his vehicle, and asked the dispatcher to advise the police officer to meet him at the clubhouse, an easy landmark to find on a dark rainy night, when the dispatcher had difficulty identifying Zimmerman's location. Zimmerman legally carried a handgun for self-defense, which saved his life or at least prevented serious injury. At which point, if you were on the ground and being beaten by a stronger person, would you fire in self-defense? Broken nose? Ok. Facial fractures? Broken ear drums? Ok. Concussion, loss of conscienceless? Ok. After the perp disarmed you and held your side arm, or shot you? Well, OK, but might that be a bit too late? Where would your finely calibrated, self-defense-stop-watch permit you to draw and fire a weapon to save your life?

 

To be honest, most people who have not been in a "combat" situation do not realize the terror and speed involved. The reason T.M. was able to successfully blindside Zimmerman was speed and the element of surprise. He had already violated Zimmerman's safe proximity zone, i.e. T.M. was already upon Zimmerman before Zimmerman could pull out his cell phone, or his weapon for that matter. Zimmerman had probably never been in that situation, fighting for his life, and in my opinion, T.M. was an experienced predator. If you haven't been there, trust me, you have no clue what Zimmerman experienced. I have training and experience. T.M. would never closed to within 10 feet of me under those circumstances without a warning to stay back, whether his skin color was black, white, brown, yellow, or pokadot. If he ignored the warning, my sidearm would out in a half second, automatic, it happens without thinking. In that case, T.M. might still be alive. Most people just cannot adjust for the speed of a serious predator, and Zimmerman, like most people, was way behind the threat-assessment power curve walking within his own gated community. He left himself with no alternative other than his side arm, and but for seconds he might have lost that battle too. None of this means that any action Zimmerman took that night was "arrogant", "stupid", or foolish, let alone criminal.

 

True, Trayvon Martin did not have to die that night. Trayvon Martin did not have to attack George Zimmerman, or to persist in the attack after he had the man down, bloodied, and loudly screaming for help. That narrative is supported by the evidence, while any other narrative is simply social activism pursued at the expense of Zimmerman's liberty and reputation.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

[Marty Hill]

Scott. Again thanks for saying it so well and truthfully. Sadly, there will always be some who just will not see the facts due to a certain type of blindness.

[MT Wallet]

Thanks Scott, you saved me a lot of typing. Your 2nd paragraph sums up how we would have liked the encounter to have gone.

 

If I had had a guy sitting on me, kicking my butt, my fist thought and duty would have been to survive, by any means.

[Couchrocket]

As I said, IMO he is stupid, stupid, stupid and arrogant, arrogant, arrogant. And equally sad is that he doesn't know it and can't see it.

 

Hi Scott,

 

A suggested correction: Proper syntax should be "he was stupid ...", i.e. past tense, as Trayvon Martin is unfortunately deceased. I wouldn't call Trayvon Martin stupid and arrogant, that's pretty harsh. He was brash and like many young men, probably felt indestructible, and was ignorant of the potential consequences of his actions. It's just unfortunate that he chose to assault Zimmerman, and that he died due to his act.

 

Of course, I knowingly took your comment out of context to make a point. Ascribing "stupidity" and "arrogance" to Zimmerman is a fairly hateful bias coming from some place other than the evidence. All the evidence about Zimmerman indicates he had a genuine concern for individuals in his community. In different circumstances, such as one where Zimmerman was not being beaten upon by T.M., Zimmerman might have reached out to Trayvon to welcome him and help him out. Could you imagine the conversation if no assault had occurred? T.M. explains that he just moved into the neighborhood, that his house is just 400 feet away, and that he was just walking home from the market. Zimmerman introduces himself, shakes T.M'.s hand, apologizes for the misunderstanding, and welcome's him to the neighborhood. He even adds "Hey Trayvon, next time you need something let me know. I was just heading over to Target and you could have rode along - maybe next time, huh?". Friendly smiles and butt pats all around. That's what normal "neighbors" due, even if they unexpectedly bump into each other late a night.

 

Zimmerman didn't follow or assault or shoot his other neighbors, and as far as I recall reading, NO ONE in his neighborhood felt threatened by Zimmerman or his neighborhood watch activities. If not for the assault, the police would have been along within 10 minutes anyway, and it could have been a constructive meeting between neighbors. That assumes, of course, that T.M.'s actual intentions that evening were not criminal, which is a pretty generous assumption given the brutal, 40 second assault he delivered upon Zimmerman.

 

You said that as a public employee for a safety agency, you've "come across this type of inability to grasp and embrace role clarity" with involved citizens. What is the citizens proper role, and how did Zimmerman overreach when serving "overwatch" for his neighborhood, protecting his neighbors, or in assisting law enforcement? I would assume that the crux of your concern was that he legally carried a handgun. I would suppose you feel that law enforcement and weapons should be left to the trained LEO's, and citizens should limit contributions to financial ones made to police benevolence funds. I think that Whip and I will always be in disagreement with you about that, i.e. the Second Amendment thing, but that's for another thread (on another forum).

 

Which of Zimmerman's actions were "arrogant and stupid"? In fact, Zimmerman violated no order from the dispatcher. In fact, he was very responsive to every question from the dispatcher. He had decided to return to his vehicle, and asked the dispatcher to advise the police officer to meet him at the clubhouse, an easy landmark to find on a dark rainy night, when the dispatcher had difficulty identifying Zimmerman's location. Zimmerman legally carried a handgun for self-defense, which saved his life or at least prevented serious injury. At which point, if you were on the ground and being beaten by a stronger person, would you fire in self-defense? Broken nose? Ok. Facial fractures? Broken ear drums? Ok. Concussion, loss of conscienceless? Ok. After the perp disarmed you and held your side arm, or shot you? Well, OK, but might that be a bit too late? Where would your finely calibrated, self-defense-stop-watch permit you to draw and fire a weapon to save your life?

 

To be honest, most people who have not been in a "combat" situation do not realize the terror and speed involved. The reason T.M. was able to successfully blindside Zimmerman was speed and the element of surprise. He had already violated Zimmerman's safe proximity zone, i.e. T.M. was already upon Zimmerman before Zimmerman could pull out his cell phone, or his weapon for that matter. Zimmerman had probably never been in that situation, fighting for his life, and in my opinion, T.M. was an experienced predator. If you haven't been there, trust me, you have no clue what Zimmerman experienced. I have training and experience. T.M. would never closed to within 10 feet of me under those circumstances without a warning to stay back, whether his skin color was black, white, brown, yellow, or pokadot. If he ignored the warning, my sidearm would out in a half second, automatic, it happens without thinking. In that case, T.M. might still be alive. Most people just cannot adjust for the speed of a serious predator, and Zimmerman, like most people, was way behind the threat-assessment power curve walking within his own gated community. He left himself with no alternative other than his side arm, and but for seconds he might have lost that battle too. None of this means that any action Zimmerman took that night was "arrogant", "stupid", or foolish, let alone criminal.

 

True, Trayvon Martin did not have to die that night. Trayvon Martin did not have to attack George Zimmerman, or to persist in the attack after he had the man down, bloodied, and loudly screaming for help. That narrative is supported by the evidence, while any other narrative is simply social activism pursued at the expense of Zimmerman's liberty and reputation.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

Well said. Unfortunately you didn't understand my post. I was not calling Martin stupid or arrogant and reversing the situation serves no probative purpose.

Having served in combat in both war and in major campaign fires I'm well aware of the discipline required to keep ones head on straight. It is Zimmerman's obvious lack of such understanding and discipline that precipitated this tragedy.

 

Your assumptions about my position on gun ownership are also incorrect.

 

Was Zimmerman fire arms qualified? Had he undergone police "decision shoot" training? Was his carrying of a firearm specifically within the parameters of the neighborhood watch program. Were all neighborhood watch people trained in an appropriate use of firearm force in the conduct of their duties in the program?

 

If so, and his use of deadly force was within stated parameters of the watch program, and if such deadly force is specifically condoned for the watch program by local law enforcement, then I stand corrected.

 

Scott

[Couchrocket]

The trial transcript does not support this assumption.

 

I did not follow the trial moment by moment, or read transcripts. Are you saying that his direct, armed, contact with Martin was demonstrated in court as being within the proper operating parameters of his role as a community watch person?

 

If so, then I'd shift my comments to whomever set those parameters for the program.

[SWB]

As I said, IMO he is stupid, stupid, stupid and arrogant, arrogant, arrogant. And equally sad is that he doesn't know it and can't see it.

 

Hi Scott,

 

A suggested correction: Proper syntax should be "he was stupid ...", i.e. past tense, as Trayvon Martin is unfortunately deceased. I wouldn't call Trayvon Martin stupid and arrogant, that's pretty harsh. He was brash and like many young men, probably felt indestructible, and was ignorant of the potential consequences of his actions. It's just unfortunate that he chose to assault Zimmerman, and that he died due to his act.

 

Of course, I knowingly took your comment out of context to make a point. Ascribing "stupidity" and "arrogance" to Zimmerman is a fairly hateful bias coming from some place other than the evidence. All the evidence about Zimmerman indicates he had a genuine concern for individuals in his community. In different circumstances, such as one where Zimmerman was not being beaten upon by T.M., Zimmerman might have reached out to Trayvon to welcome him and help him out. Could you imagine the conversation if no assault had occurred? T.M. explains that he just moved into the neighborhood, that his house is just 400 feet away, and that he was just walking home from the market. Zimmerman introduces himself, shakes T.M'.s hand, apologizes for the misunderstanding, and welcome's him to the neighborhood. He even adds "Hey Trayvon, next time you need something let me know. I was just heading over to Target and you could have rode along - maybe next time, huh?". Friendly smiles and butt pats all around. That's what normal "neighbors" due, even if they unexpectedly bump into each other late a night.

 

Zimmerman didn't follow or assault or shoot his other neighbors, and as far as I recall reading, NO ONE in his neighborhood felt threatened by Zimmerman or his neighborhood watch activities. If not for the assault, the police would have been along within 10 minutes anyway, and it could have been a constructive meeting between neighbors. That assumes, of course, that T.M.'s actual intentions that evening were not criminal, which is a pretty generous assumption given the brutal, 40 second assault he delivered upon Zimmerman.

 

You said that as a public employee for a safety agency, you've "come across this type of inability to grasp and embrace role clarity" with involved citizens. What is the citizens proper role, and how did Zimmerman overreach when serving "overwatch" for his neighborhood, protecting his neighbors, or in assisting law enforcement? I would assume that the crux of your concern was that he legally carried a handgun. I would suppose you feel that law enforcement and weapons should be left to the trained LEO's, and citizens should limit contributions to financial ones made to police benevolence funds. I think that Whip and I will always be in disagreement with you about that, i.e. the Second Amendment thing, but that's for another thread (on another forum).

 

Which of Zimmerman's actions were "arrogant and stupid"? In fact, Zimmerman violated no order from the dispatcher. In fact, he was very responsive to every question from the dispatcher. He had decided to return to his vehicle, and asked the dispatcher to advise the police officer to meet him at the clubhouse, an easy landmark to find on a dark rainy night, when the dispatcher had difficulty identifying Zimmerman's location. Zimmerman legally carried a handgun for self-defense, which saved his life or at least prevented serious injury. At which point, if you were on the ground and being beaten by a stronger person, would you fire in self-defense? Broken nose? Ok. Facial fractures? Broken ear drums? Ok. Concussion, loss of conscienceless? Ok. After the perp disarmed you and held your side arm, or shot you? Well, OK, but might that be a bit too late? Where would your finely calibrated, self-defense-stop-watch permit you to draw and fire a weapon to save your life?

 

To be honest, most people who have not been in a "combat" situation do not realize the terror and speed involved. The reason T.M. was able to successfully blindside Zimmerman was speed and the element of surprise. He had already violated Zimmerman's safe proximity zone, i.e. T.M. was already upon Zimmerman before Zimmerman could pull out his cell phone, or his weapon for that matter. Zimmerman had probably never been in that situation, fighting for his life, and in my opinion, T.M. was an experienced predator. If you haven't been there, trust me, you have no clue what Zimmerman experienced. I have training and experience. T.M. would never closed to within 10 feet of me under those circumstances without a warning to stay back, whether his skin color was black, white, brown, yellow, or pokadot. If he ignored the warning, my sidearm would out in a half second, automatic, it happens without thinking. In that case, T.M. might still be alive. Most people just cannot adjust for the speed of a serious predator, and Zimmerman, like most people, was way behind the threat-assessment power curve walking within his own gated community. He left himself with no alternative other than his side arm, and but for seconds he might have lost that battle too. None of this means that any action Zimmerman took that night was "arrogant", "stupid", or foolish, let alone criminal.

 

True, Trayvon Martin did not have to die that night. Trayvon Martin did not have to attack George Zimmerman, or to persist in the attack after he had the man down, bloodied, and loudly screaming for help. That narrative is supported by the evidence, while any other narrative is simply social activism pursued at the expense of Zimmerman's liberty and reputation.

 

Regards,

 

Scott

 

Well said. Unfortunately you didn't understand my post. I was not calling Martin stupid or arrogant.

 

 

 

Scott

 

We both know that. Thx

[Couchrocket]

We both know that. Thx

 

Hi,

 

I edited my post to expand on my point. See above.

 

Scott

[tallman]

The trial transcript does not support this assumption.

 

I did not follow the trial moment by moment, or read transcripts. Are you saying that his direct, armed, contact with Martin was demonstrated in court as being within the proper operating parameters of his role as a community watch person?

 

If so, then I'd shift my comments to whomever set those parameters for the program.

 

 

As apparently the jury, each member seeing and hearing all of the relevant evidence, determined, being a member of the watch does not requires abdicating the rights of a citizen to exercise self defense in Florida.

 

 

[Couchrocket]

The trial transcript does not support this assumption.

 

I did not follow the trial moment by moment, or read transcripts. Are you saying that his direct, armed, contact with Martin was demonstrated in court as being within the proper operating parameters of his role as a community watch person?

 

If so, then I'd shift my comments to whomever set those parameters for the program.

 

 

As apparently the jury, each member seeing and hearing all of the relevant evidence, determined, being a member of the watch does not requires abdicating the rights of a citizen to exercise self defense in Florida.

 

 

Yes, and I think that was a sound decision. He was not guilty of murder. But that's a different subject from his appropriate role as a community watch person - and that is my point.

[Mike]

I've been trying throughout this to separate my tendency toward admittedly detached analysis as a prosecutor from my personal visceral reaction and the heated reactions of those who either want to vilify or celebrate George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin.

 

First, I think it's clear that the Martin and Zimmerman families have suffered greatly. More than they otherwise would have, due to the fact that biased media coverage and self-aggrandizing outsiders seized on this case as a vehicle to advance their agendas. So, more than anything else, I feel sorry for those directly involved--Trayvon Martin, who lost his life at a young age, and George Zimmerman, whose life has been irrevocably changed by the events of that evening. And, as a dad, I can barely fathom the depth of sorrow felt by Martin's parents; regardless of any culpability on his part that led to his death, it's a horrific thing to experience the loss of a child.

 

Throughout the whole affair, there's been scant attention paid to the truth. NBC edited the 911 call in a way that I can only view as a calculated attempt to incite anger and racial tensions. Reporting of the size and appearance of the two principal players was distorted. And, quite significantly, nearly every news outlet mischaracterized Florida's self-defense laws when, in truth, they largely reflect common law dating back hundreds of years and are consistent with the statutes of many other states (the "stand your ground" aspect of Florida statutes was never an issue, given the facts that developed and were proven at trial).

 

So, from my pragmatic perspective--at least what seems pragmatic to me--the State's prosecution never made sense (admittedly, though, I don't know all the facts and those who did prosecute the case are seasoned professionals). What I found especially puzzling was that this case--one where it appeared to me the affirmative defense of self-defense clearly applied--was chosen by civil rights advocates as a vehicle to voice their continuing frustration with racial profiling and disparities in our system of justice. But, as I read comments like James's and talk with others whom I respect, but who view this case differently, I have at least come to a greater understanding of the difficulties that our black brethren continue to experience. It's a point that bears continuing self-examination and should motivate all of us to look into our own hearts. Hopefully, in some small way, events like this will shift our attitudes and acceptance of one another to some small degree in a positive way.

 

Finally, for all the unwarranted hell that George Zimmerman has been through, and despite the fact that I'm a strong Second Amendment advocate, there's some benefit in this playing out on the public stage. If nothing else, it reinforces for those of us who favor concealed carry rights the notion that one is almost always better off to de-escalate a confrontation, where possible, or, better still, to avoid it altogether if you can. Basic stuff that most comprehend, but still the perfect illustration of how rapidly a bad situation can evolve into a life-altering event.

[Couchrocket]

If nothing else, it reinforces for those of us who favor concealed carry rights the notion that one is almost always better off to de-escalate a confrontation, where possible, or, better still, to avoid it altogether if you can. Basic stuff that most comprehend, but still the perfect illustration of how rapidly a bad situation can evolve into a life-altering event.

 

Very well said.

[10ovr]

[beemerman2k]

Understanding is really subjective at some point. I recall the Simpson trial and cheers that went up after he was set free. I don't remember people taking to streets to find justice for Ron and Nicole. They are all but forgotten at this point to the general public.

 

I fail to see how the concept of "understanding" is in any way related to the cheers that went up after the OJ trial. To me, those cheers are ultra-clear evidence of a LACK of understanding!

 

I wonder if the vast majority of people understand the idea of "understanding someone other than themselves". It seems to me that human nature is so hell-bent on asserting ones own understanding, so hell-bent on proving ones own views to be "correct", so hell-bent on destroying those who see things differently, that we really don't understand what it means to understand another.

 

Nor do we understand how to actually listen to another with the intent of understanding that person's point of view. What I observe is that when most people actually take a second to listen to another, they are actually listening with the intent to respond rather than with the intent to understand.

 

Are you aware that there are a multitude of legitimate perspectives that might explain a situation, and that you only represent one of them? Or do you think you possess absolute, irrefutable *truth*? if the former, great, we can make progress. If the latter, then you are a part of the problem, not a part of the solution.

 

The act of listening with the intent of understanding is a *selfless* act! The listener is not interested in asserting their own views. The listener, instead, actually desires to see the world from the point of view of another, with the intent of understanding. The listener does this because they are aware that life is more complex than a simple bumper sticker, and that their own views represent only one of many possible legitimate interpretations of an event. The listener, then, will seek what's called, "reconciliation", that is a bridging of the gap between the two parties.

 

Assuming 2 parties have engaged in selfless listening, and in mutual understanding, now the two parties can engage in real communication! In the process of real communication, each party identifies the points of difference between them. Most importantly, however, is that the parties can identify the differing principles and priorities that exist between them!

 

Once that happens, common interests and common outcomes can be identified and a common plan can be engineered as to how all the parties involved can collaborate to bring about this common goal. Now, the two parties have become one, unified, solitary party! This process has always been my ideal of what is known as the "melting pot of America", where people from all walks of life come and reconcile and unify their collective aspirations behind a common goal--the very ideals of our Founding Fathers representing that common goal.

 

Racism in America will end the moment people decide to put aside their own desire to assert their own self righteousness, and instead to listen to another with the intent of understanding. Everyone has a duty to undergo this process--black and white, no exceptions!

 

Why should we even bother? Because we all really do love, and we all strongly believe, in the ideals of our country. We have faith in those ideals, and we also have faith in the idea that the vast majority of our country-persons also honor those ideals. Therefore, we are all committed to helping all of us to get there! It's the least we can do for all the bloodshed and sacrifices that were paid to get us where we are today

 

By the way, having said all of this, I see excellent examples of a willingness to listen right here in this thread. Thank you!

[SuperG]

A lot of good point being raised in these posts.

Mike, I agree with you about the media blunder.

One thing bothers me. Make that two. And find it grossly unfair.

1: The prosecutors heavily used phrase of "the life of a child was lost, and "child was killed". I am a father of two kids, 12 and 17. Loss of a child would be unbearable.

But we have to understand that a 17 year old male (a child) can brutally beat you and can cause great bodily injury. The feeling of invulnerability and testosterone. They are quick and the body is more forgiving; it is the same regardless of skin color.

Case in point: 6th street (entertainment district) Austin TX about a year ago one punched an other in the jaws, got knocked out, fell to side walk smacked his head on hard concrete and died a month later from brain injury complication.

 

2: I understand the profiling of black youth and the pertaining status-quo in America. There is lots of room to improve. However in all fairness the parties in this case (in theory) could be switched, a 17 year old Zimmerman (child) and 28 year old Martin in confrontation. Or leave them as they are but switch their race in the same confrontation. If justice is fair, the out come should be the same.

I don't think the public outcry would be the same. And it is the troubling part. The public's view is clouded by the race of the parties involved.

[beemerman2k]

The demonstrations I have been hearing about in the news by my fellow black Americans is taking place because they feel like they are not being listened to. Blacks feel ignored, overlooked, and disregarded.

 

If I had it my way, the effort would not be centered around being heard. The protest would center around having an opportunity to listen. Listen! With respect. Without judgement. Without prejudice. Without emotion. Just listen, learn, and understand. No charges of racism, no calling of "hate crimes", no references to the past, Jim Crow, KKK, or any of that nonsense. Listen, remain silent, say nothing.

 

And if I had it my way, the wider society, or whatever non-black interests there might be out there, would also fight for the opportunity to listen, rather than to speak. No references to race baitors, no references to affirmative action, no references to gang bangers or social services. Just listen.

 

Then when both parties have let out all their hot air, such that the speakers feel they have nothing left to say (might take a few years :smirk:), then the parties can discuss their findings among themselves, and engage in real communication, understanding, and reconciliation.

 

If and when that time comes, there will be peace. Guaranteed.

 

Seek first to understand, then to be understood St Francis of Assisi

[beemerboy]

I'm bothered more by the media turning a blind eye towards Chicago's most recent weekend of bloodshed (black on black killings) in order to focus on their own agenda; skewing reality and creating a crisis where one really doesn't exist.

 

Anyway, here's an interesting Op Ed about the trial from a person of color:

 

 

"Zimmerman's picture ... appeared in [a] People magazine story as it did ubiquitously: an unsmiling, unshaved man in an orange, jail-issue jumpsuit. When the first stories appeared, Zimmerman was identified as white; only later, when it turned out that his mother was an immigrant from Peru, did most news stories refer to him as a white Hispanic or white and Hispanic. ... [T]he designation was important to making race a central issue in the case. If Zimmerman were simply 'Hispanic,' or had he been black, then the killing would never have become a national story. ... Blacks commit the overwhelming majority of black homicides -- 93 percent in 2008, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. But stories of black-on-black crime don't get much play, nor do stories in which perpetrator and victim are from differing minority groups. But portray the killer as an armed, white man in pursuit of any young black male he thinks might be about to commit a crime, and the case becomes a metaphor for white racism. ... If the media had stuck to the facts and not played the race card, the debate over this case might have focused more on ways the death might have been avoided -- which would have included both Martin and Zimmerman behaving differently that fateful night. Instead, the media have encouraged young black men to believe they all have bullseyes on their backs." --columnist Linda Chavez

[Matts_12GS]