The Trayvon Martin Case

[moshe_levy]

My point is this: I didn't deserve any of that treatment! But the behavior of many of my fellow black men out there destroys the credibility of us all.

 

Right. And my point was, "in whose eyes is your credibility destroyed?" In here you see some who are trigger-happy - pun not necessarily intended - to believe the worst about a kid they know nothing about, because of how he was dressed, and maybe for other reasons too. There are others who are waiting for the facts to come out before judging. There are those of us who find judging a group by the actions of one individual a gross, base, incredibly stupid mindset which deserves no respect whatsoever under any circumstances. That's how I feel about it. Such people who engage in this "thought process" love to claim accomplishments by others in their race / religion / group, which they had nothing to do with, and by the same token degrade entire other groups based on one individual's actions. Like Chris Rock said, "I didn't get my OJ check in the mail!" Einstein was a Jew. I'm not that smart. Bernie Madoff was a Jew. I haven't ripped anyone off. I'm me. I'm not them. Trayvon was Trayvon. Anything else is nonsense.

 

Was Trayvon a gangster? I dunno - no evidence to that effect yet. Was he the next Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates, harassed outside his own home by trigger happy A-holes for no good reason? I dunno - could be. Nobody knows, yet.

 

Cops in here - professionals with actual training - have time and again posted the steps they would take to avoid escalation. They have told you the types of people who typically play the Zimmerman role - "cop groupies" and hangers-on. Groupies and hangers-on, armed to the teeth. No training. No psych analysis. And so it plays out this way.

 

So I'm waiting for the facts. I'm also damn angry that another kid is dead. And I'm also paying special heed to what the professionals who deal with this stuff all the time are saying, in here and elsewhere.

 

"It is what it is" is a cop-out and a denial of our power to change reality to become better. It's throwing your hands up and giving in, not fighting for a better tomorrow.

 

-MKL

[beemerman2k]

The bottom line is that guns in the hands of untrained persons can often lead to more problems than solutions. They also escalate situations that may never have turned deadly, if the gun had not been present. I think the Martin/Zimmerman situation is probably a good example of this idea. I doubt Martin or Zimmerman would have died, had there been no gun involved in this incident.

 

Now that's a beautiful quote right there.

 

[beemerman2k]

"It is what it is" is a cop-out and a denial of our power to change reality to become better. It's throwing your hands up and giving in, not fighting for a better tomorrow.

 

-MKL

 

 

I don't think it's a cop out. I see it as an acknowledgement that I will not let ideals or ideology lead the way, but I will let a firm grasp of the reality of the situation dictate my course of action.

 

So, how do I "fight for a better tomorrow"? We all have our avenues, but let me tell you mine: my 3 lovely, beautiful, super-intelligent, ultra-talented, highly accomplished daughters. That's how I fight for a better tomorrow. That's the only fight I feel I can realistically engage in.

 

It's the same fight you're engaged in with your precious children.

 

At this point in the game, I am more optimistic that your hugely gifted, ultra-talented, and brilliant children and my children will do a lot more to effect a better tomorrow than you and I will. But I will certainly seize every opportunity I can to do so.

 

One area that I feel I am doing so is by engaging in this very thread. I must say that I am very pleased with how we have all been able to come here and passionately, yet politely, debate topics like race and profiling and families and crime and community and this terrible tragedy in Florida together. I am learning a great deal from everyone here who posts. I hope I am able to convey some knowledge, even if it's just the perspective of a black man who has been on the other side of this profiling business.

 

What we are doing here is what the entire nation needs to do. But we cannot stop here, the entire nation needs to come together and agree on a base set of moral standards that we all hold to, and demand that our children hold to as well. When I say "moral standards", I do not mean anything sexual in nature, I mean only that which is social or public in nature. Grades, education, achievement, service, and so on. I don't know what you call this, but whatever it is, that's the conversation our nation needs to have. If we can all get on the same page, we will be in a great position to compete against the other rising powers out there who look forward to seeing the USA in their rear view mirrors.

[DaveTheAffable]

The disintegration of the family, for whatever reasons, is in my opinion what is killing us as a nation. Many black youths, and many white kids, too, are growing up without the basic tools necessary to compete and contribute in this society. To me, this is the other side of off-shoring. Companies are realizing that the kids in India and China are not going to mouth off about their work load, show up to work in baggy jeans and tattoos everywhere, and show disrespect to the management or the customers. American kids? Not so much.

 

Rap culture, with all it entails, is giving these neglected and misguided kids something to do, and that's not a good thing.

 

 

What we are doing here is what the entire nation needs to do. But we cannot stop here, the entire nation needs to come together and agree on a base set of moral standards that we all hold to, and demand that our children hold to as well

 

And where will these "moral codes" come from?

 

Disrespect? (or lack of it?) That is not a "tool". That has to do with character and values. Things normally associated with religion or moral codes. We don't want them to get their values from there, and we don't want the government teaching right and wrong. From where then?

 

Ohhhh... but let's not discuss those here! Why, as a forum just a few weeks ago people said things like, "Let everyone decide in their own mind what is right and wrong". Well both Zimmerman and Trayvon made those choices, and some of you pompously sit here and try to analyze and critcize? I'm having a good chuckle here....

 

In this thread, I have heard "what if..." or "maybe..." "or assume for a moment..." so many times. To what end or benefit?

 

1) None of us were there.

2) Zimmerman IS NOT, WAS NOT representative of any group. He was a group of 1.

3) Congress, Media, and Politicians LIED about the "FACTS" early in the case, because of their own agenda or because of what they heard from NBC.

 

LIE - NBC Published the radio transcript FALSELY

Zimmerman - "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black.."

 

FACT

Zimmerman: "This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about."

Dispatcher: "OK, and this guy -- is he black, white or Hispanic?"

Zimmerman: "He looks black."

 

(I believe I have this verbatim based on "corrected" news reports)

 

Hundreds of thousands of people, of all races heard the first version... and it was a lie that inflamed the case. And to date, NBC has NOT broadcast a correction or apology. They did put out a written statement, which hundreds of thousands have NOT heard.

 

4) The Black Panthers offered a $10,000 reward ON CAMERA for Zimmerman DEAD or alive. Silence from the community. No prosecution. (they were also found to be intimidating poling places during 2008, but that was ignored also.)

5) The Rap industry (which you have noted) puts out the most vile and misogynous content, praising the abuse of women and the killing of police officers, and the community is largely silent.

6) Black on Black murder is incredible! "A 2007 special report released by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, reveals that approximately 8,000 — and, in certain years, as many as 9,000 African Americans are murdered annually in the United States. This chilling figure is accompanied by another equally sobering fact, that 93% of these murders are in fact perpetrated by other blacks. The analysis, supported by FBI records, finds that in 2005 alone, for example, African Americans accounted for 49% of all homicide victims in the US — again, almost exclusively at the hands of other African Americans." Several law enforcement people have said that number is UP in 2011. Silence from the community.

 

So...

- outside of the stupidity of our Congressmen and women who knew NOTHING of the case from day one and yet have stirred the fire...

- The lies by NBC (they have fired an "anonymous" editor)

- None of us were there

- 7000+ male blacks will be killed by other male blacks this year if statistics follow, ....and the world is in an uproar over 1 looney block captain who may or may not have done the right thing?

 

It saddens me to see all this rhetoric. And don't say, "Well don't read it then". This is my community too, and I care about you all.

 

 

[upflying]

 

 

 

So, how do I "fight for a better tomorrow"? We all have our avenues, but let me tell you mine: my 3 lovely, beautiful, super-intelligent, ultra-talented, highly accomplished daughters. That's how I fight for a better tomorrow. That's the only fight I feel I can realistically engage in.

 

It's the same fight you're engaged in with your precious children.

 

At this point in the game, I am more optimistic that your hugely gifted, ultra-talented, and brilliant children and my children will do a lot more to effect a better tomorrow than you and I will. But I will certainly seize every opportunity I can to do so.

 

This reminds me of the "Broken Window Theory" I learned about many years ago. Your daughters will lead by example and provide positive role models for "at risk youth" they may encounter. The BWT says crime and urban moral decay can be reversed by maintaining and keeping the environment in good condition. The "environment" in this example is the positive image presented by your daughters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

[MotorinLA]

LIE - NBC Published the radio transcript FALSELY

Zimmerman - "This guy looks like he's up to no good. He looks black.."

 

FACT

Zimmerman: "This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about."

Dispatcher: "OK, and this guy -- is he black, white or Hispanic?"

Zimmerman: "He looks black."

 

(I believe I have this verbatim based on "corrected" news reports)

 

Hundreds of thousands of people, of all races heard the first version... and it was a lie that inflamed the case. And to date, NBC has NOT broadcast a correction or apology. They did put out a written statement, which hundreds of thousands have NOT heard.

 

 

Happens all the time unfortunately.

 

One has to wonder if the fall-out from the Rodney King case would have been as severe, had the news media aired the whole video, rather than just the most inflammatory 18 secounds showing the beating. The result was lives lost and millions of dollars in damages. Was the media held to answer for their role in this disaster? Absolutely not.

 

Another example is the Jeremy Morse video in Inglewood, CA, a few years back. Again the media showed the inflammatory portion of the video and intentionally edited out the portion showing the explanation and justification for Morse's actions. Again, the actions of the officer involved were possibly not appropriate, however, the video showed why he acted the way he did. Same as Zimmerman, there were death threats and public condemnation from politicians before the facts of the case were known. Any accountability on the part of the media? Again, no.

 

I certainly do not believe in governmental control of media or censuring of the media by government, but I do think that the government should step in and require the media, especially large-scale media, to be accountable for what they spew out to the public as "fact". A few hard slaps with monetary sanctions or at least public apologies on the same scale as the original news was reported would be appropriate. If the jack@$$ behind the anchor desk had to worry about the consequences of his reporting, he might be a little less apt to crank out the half-truths and speculations that currently tend to plague our air-waves.

[Kathy R]

Kathy,

You've been very fortunate and, perhaps, away too long....Flash Gangs and just gangs are extremely problematic.

 

I moved from Chicago in the Spring of 2009.

 

HERE

 

Gangs or groups of youth shoplifting. Not a good thing.

 

 

HERE

 

That wasn't a story about cops shutting down North Ave beach due to gang violence. It is a story about the rumor. That story linked to the reason the beach was shut down; the heat, heavy crowding and disorientation due to conditions. I don't mean to say that the gangs can't travel to all areas of the city and wreak havoc, but that has nothing to do with my opinion about a young man walking at night wearing a hoodie.

 

 

and HERE!

 

Yes, Chicago has far too many homicides per capita (if any could be considered acceptable) , most all of them gang related and occurring in gang infested neighborhoods. Combine that history with an unusually warm winter and you have, as the article pointed out, more folks, bad folks, out and about in their gang infested neighborhood. I suspect that in especially cold winters the inverse is true.

 

Deb and I have both been accosted by aggressive panhandlers going to and from work in Chicago. One, who refused to get out of our way and blocked our path, I took out his knee with my briefcase.....

 

Horrifying experience, no doubt. I'm very glad you both were not hurt.

 

I was walking up Michigan Ave one night, with a male friend, when an unusually edgy pan handler stepped into our path. We continued to walk forward, without slowing. We, wisely or not, yelled at him to get out of our way. He could have pulled out a gun or a knife, although in my 7 years of living there I never experienced violence and I was out nearly every night. Our reaction to him was from our gut. Nobody was going to get away with trying to intimidate us in our neighborhood. We weren't going to stand for it. He was a bully. Thankfully he didn't have a weapon or chose not to bring it out. It was soon after that that the Mayor stiffened the penalties for aggressive panhandling. Very bad for tourism. 99% of the panhandlers I interacted with daily were not edgy, so I think of that fellow as the minority and I don't think of panhandlers as dangerous as a result. It was one bad person.

 

 

What year did that happen to you two and what neighborhood/cross street?

 

 

It's not just the dress (hoodie etc), its also the "attitude" that goes along with it.

 

I again remind you to step back and think about that. There are a lot of people who play bad boy biker on the weekend and fill cavities throughout the week. I know a couple of them

 

I really don't know if Martin exhibited any kind of "attitude". All I know is he was suspicious to Zimmerman. Martin would not have attracted my attention if he were walking through, as it seems he was?

 

To clear up any misconceptions, none of my comments are "racial" just "societal". And, perhaps, my radar is more finely tuned than yours.....

 

Understood.

 

Be sure to register that brief case next time you visit Chicago

 

 

[beemerman2k]

If the jack@$$ behind the anchor desk had to worry about the consequences of his reporting, he might be a little less apt to crank out the half-truths and speculations that currently tend to plague our air-waves.

 

Motor's on a roll tonight. In fact, this gets my vote as "quote of the thread". Well, it'd be a toss up between this one, and the quote from the last post he entered

 

[beemerman2k]

 

 

 

So, how do I "fight for a better tomorrow"? We all have our avenues, but let me tell you mine: my 3 lovely, beautiful, super-intelligent, ultra-talented, highly accomplished daughters. That's how I fight for a better tomorrow. That's the only fight I feel I can realistically engage in.

 

It's the same fight you're engaged in with your precious children.

 

At this point in the game, I am more optimistic that your hugely gifted, ultra-talented, and brilliant children and my children will do a lot more to effect a better tomorrow than you and I will. But I will certainly seize every opportunity I can to do so.

 

This reminds me of the "Broken Window Theory" I learned about many years ago. Your daughters will lead by example and provide positive role models for "at risk youth" they may encounter. The BWT says crime and urban moral decay can be reversed by maintaining and keeping the environment in good condition. The "environment" in this example is the positive image presented by your daughters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

 

No doubt, this was the same avenue, hope, and mission that Trayvon's parents had. When I view this situation from that perspective, my heart completely breaks for them. If something were to happen to any of my girls, that would completely derail me.

[beemerman2k]

So...

- outside of the stupidity of our Congressmen and women who knew NOTHING of the case from day one and yet have stirred the fire...

- The lies by NBC (they have fired an "anonymous" editor)

- None of us were there

- 7000+ male blacks will be killed by other male blacks this year if statistics follow, ....and the world is in an uproar over 1 looney block captain who may or may not have done the right thing?

 

It saddens me to see all this rhetoric. And don't say, "Well don't read it then". This is my community too, and I care about you all.

 

 

Dave, it saddens me, too, and your point is a very good one.

 

So why are we so preoccupied with this case? I can only speculate, but here's my take on things:

 

- many of these 7000+ black males who are killed by other black males are engaged in criminal activity. Yes, there are some who are not engaged in criminal activity! They are innocent victims who were targeted by gangs for whatever reason (won't join, won't help sell drugs, ratted them out to the police, are busy achieving academically, are busy providing for their families, etc). And while if I had it my way, the National Guard would come in and reclaim these territories for the United State of America, so long as their local economies don't have enough opportunities for everyone, these kind of neighborhoods will be a fact of life in the USA.

 

This is why I am so opposed to American goods being produced outside of America. Imagine how completely different our cities would be if these young people had jobs and careers and a future? As of now, they have none, or very little. So the narcotics industry is the only industry that is always hiring, and they want a job.

 

- Trayvon Martin was NOT involved in criminal activity, and therefore, his death was clearly uncalled for. His only "crime" was that he was that he was walking back from the local store, and that act set off a chain of events that led to his death. Given that most people walk to/from the store from time to time, everyone can relate to the horror of what happened that night. No one wants to die like that.

 

Having said all of this, I seriously wish the nation would fixate it's eyes on the very problems you state. Let's send in the military and reclaim those lands, I say. There are many poor, yet hard working families that are living in terror in their own homes because of the neighborhoods they are in. They would welcome US soldiers much like the peoples of other nations when the USA arrives to free them from some tyrant.

[upflying]

If the jack@$$ behind the anchor desk had to worry about the consequences of his reporting, he might be a little less apt to crank out the half-truths and speculations that currently tend to plague our air-waves.

 

Motor's on a roll tonight. In fact, this gets my vote as "quote of the thread". Well, it'd be a toss up between this one, and the quote from the last post he entered

The jackwad behind the anchor desk is only a reader reporting what others tell him/her to say.

[Bruce (Bedford)]

Gun ownership, and carrying a weapon in public are distinct.

Please don't lump them together.

 

I am still following this in the UK and have to admit that it is fascinating and whilst I accept it is NONE OF MY BUSINESS (so accept my apologies if I tread on toes) but could the compromise be to keep guns, that your heritage seems to demands, at home? Or in a sealed container between home and a legitimate club or range.

I wear a helmet on my 'bike, tax my 'bike and observe the speed laws (usually) for the benefit of others as well as myself, considered to be the greater good.

Maybe this makes me a bleeding heart liberal but the weight of an innocent death or injury on my conscience for the want of the greater social good is sense to me.

Without a doubt come down HARD on ANYONE regardless of colour or creed if they don't comply.

Sorry to poke my nose in!

Bruce

 

[tallman]

 

 

 

So, how do I "fight for a better tomorrow"? We all have our avenues, but let me tell you mine: my 3 lovely, beautiful, super-intelligent, ultra-talented, highly accomplished daughters. That's how I fight for a better tomorrow. That's the only fight I feel I can realistically engage in.

 

It's the same fight you're engaged in with your precious children.

 

At this point in the game, I am more optimistic that your hugely gifted, ultra-talented, and brilliant children and my children will do a lot more to effect a better tomorrow than you and I will. But I will certainly seize every opportunity I can to do so.

 

This reminds me of the "Broken Window Theory" I learned about many years ago. Your daughters will lead by example and provide positive role models for "at risk youth" they may encounter. The BWT says crime and urban moral decay can be reversed by maintaining and keeping the environment in good condition. The "environment" in this example is the positive image presented by your daughters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

 

No doubt, this was the same avenue, hope, and mission that Trayvon's parents had. When I view this situation from that perspective, my heart completely breaks for them. If something were to happen to any of my girls, that would completely derail me.

 

 

"No doubt"?

Based on what?

Actions the parents took before, or after Martin's death?

 

James,

Earlier I suggested doing research on homicides (not just gun deaths) and data on the race of the

criminal, and race of the victim. (All, not only black on black) This is the context of Z's POV and

the recent break-ins the HOA had publicized and notified NW to be aware of.

For Z, in that context, and given an accurate script of 911 call, Z's POV may make senses.

 

You say Martin wasn't doing anything criminal.

And you know this???

If Martin was attacking Z, something criminal, if Martin acting in self defense, justifies.

My point is your posts are replete with assumptions and bias, intentiaonal, or not.

Not a personal attack, I hope, but an observation of a poster making a broad unsubstantiated

opinion and using it to make a point or assertion.

That, IMO, is a huge part of the problem.

 

In another county, Martin would have been assigned to my school and been my student.

I've spent the majority of my life working with children and young adults.

I see positive aqnd negative examples all the time.

 

I also see things like your statement about "gangsta wear/look" is all becasue of the media.

 

BS

Not only is this BS it is a trmendowu injustice and disrespectful to those individuals

who choose to dress like that.

You seem to be saying they can't make another choice, they're too weak, media controls them.

What happened to self reliance/responsibility?

I'd prefer to think each individual has the ability to determine for themself.

 

My experience shows that individuals who dress and act a certain way,

think ATGATT, do so because they are making an affirmative choice and are completely aware

of the connotation of their choices/actions.

 

You may disagree, but doesn't that perpetuate the "I'm a victim" rationalization and remove

the responsible for my own choices we/you are always trumpeting?

 

[moshe_levy]

If the jack@$$ behind the anchor desk had to worry about the consequences of his reporting, he might be a little less apt to crank out the half-truths and speculations that currently tend to plague our air-waves.

 

Motor's on a roll tonight. In fact, this gets my vote as "quote of the thread". Well, it'd be a toss up between this one, and the quote from the last post he entered

 

Quote of the thread, eh? Nobody sees an issue with some gov't panel deciding what "truth" is and slapping sanctions on the media for reporting what it sees as lies? Really? You might want to glance above that second Amendment everyone's busy discussing and see what's printed there, and see how it jives with this suggestion.

 

I'm as frustrated as anyone with media nonsense, believe me. But that alternative is no alternative, as history clearly points out time and again.

 

I'm also not clear on the black on black crime issue and how it relates here. Imagine you were Trayvon's mom, and in some bizarre red herring to explain why he was gunned down in the street returning from a conveninece store for some candy, some abstract stats about how others in his race are killed start getting spouted. Really? How about the next time one of us gets killed on the road by some careless cager, the media comes with "Well, as you know, 5,000 motorcyclists per year are killed on the road, and this figure has generally been rising for over a decade, that's why they're calld "donorcycles," so...." How would you feel about that? Why is that any different? It's not.

 

B2K I agree that through our kids, we have the best chance, but part of what we can do today, ourselves, is to fight for what we see as the way ahead. A kid was killed. We don't know if he was a bad guy - there's really nothing out there so far that says he does. He was dressed with a hoodie - I wear those all the time, and so does my accountant when he goes jogging. So f'n what? He was killed by a glorified self-made wannabe rent-a-cop, which real police have repeatedly said in here, likely acted way overzealously, gunning down an unarmed kid. And now that he's dead, it's whatever evidence we can collect vs. what Z has a chance to say. Don't lose sight of that fact. He could be your son, or mine. Taking my kid's life? You better have a damn good reason. If the facts don't present one, well then....

 

-MKL

[beemerman2k]

Why do you guys keep challenging me for my ongoing mental narrative, yet nobody challenges motorinLA or upglying for their ongoing narrative?

[beemerman2k]

"No doubt"?

Based on what?

Actions the parents took before, or after Martin's death?

 

Tim, I wonder if you are forming an ongoing narrative as well? Our narratives differ, so what. We'll all find out, hopefully. If we don't, life goes on.

 

I am living the effects of this 'gangsta rap' nonsense. Based on that.

 

Tell me about your racial profiling incidences and tell me what those events taught you.

[Polo]

All that has been said here comes from different perspectives and levels of passion.

 

I am not addressing any particular individual here, but just expressing in my own words what has been meant by others.

 

1- The probability of drawing a gun under the wrong conditions increases by 100% when a gun is carried.

2- The probability of standing your ground, when you should just walk away is proportionally higher to the false sense of authority and security afforded by the possession of a gun.

3- I would venture to say that the first words out of a LEO would have been "Blah blah blah PD"; that of itself would have had a different response and attitude from TM.

4- It is a sad event, but the young man is not any more dead because he was black.

5- TM was no more innocent because he is now dead.

6- His death was not necessary, and would likely would not have happened if Z had not been carrying a gun.

 

 

IMO an armed neighborhood watch was a tragedy looking for an opportunity to happen.

 

We live in difficult times distorted by laws overruling justice, and media controlling the opinion of masses by distorted half truths.

 

I hope no one is in any way offended by this.

[Agent_Orange]

" He was killed by a glorified self-made wannabe rent-a-cop, which real police have repeatedly said in here, likely acted way overzealously, gunning down an unarmed kid."

 

 

Now that is one hell of a statement. Might as well go string Zimmerman up, according to your view.

[beemerman2k]

You know what, if I am "biased" or "misguided", let me tell you why that might be.

 

Because I know that everyday I step outside my home, I am subject to be racially profiled by the police, some wannabe cop at the mall, security at the department store, the clerk at the local liquor store -- you guys have no idea what this is like! No idea, whatsoever.

 

To the black mans experience, there is NO corollary between the incident of being 'profiled' to the likelihood of being a criminal -- NONE WHATSOEVER! I cannot emphasize this point enough. Yet, in my opinion, this is where the great racial divide exists, at least any racial divide that colors our narrative of what happened the night Trayvon Martin was killed. Some of you seem to assume that if he wasn't guilty of something, he wouldn't have had that encounter with Zimmerman. I'm here to tell you as clearly and plainly as I can that such a notion has NO BEARING on the black mans experience. NONE WHATSOEVER!

 

(Sorry to be so emphatic, but this assumption about Martin's guilt is the issue here).

 

Every time I go to the store, let's say the local "Best Buy" for example, I do a quick "self diagnostic" to ensure that there is nothing about me that might raise any profiling flags on the part of security. Do I have any electronics on me that might be mistaken for store products, and therefore might be used to suggest that I am shoplifting? Do I have my sunglasses on? Do I look presentable? These are the questions that run through my mind every day I leave the house, every time I go to the store, every time I go to the airport or other public places.

 

You know why? As a black man, I will not get the benefit of the doubt, that's why. If and when security stops me to "question me", and decides I need to be detained, or further investigated, and I feel they are out of place, and a conflict breaks out, and the cops come, and I go to jail, you know what the public will say? "What's that guys problem, the store simply wanted to make sure he wasn't shoplifting. Is that such an unreasonable request?" It is if the reason they are asking me is simply because I am a black man! Yes, that's an unreasonable request! I'm not a second class citizen of this country. I am nobody's servant. I am just as free as any white man out there. So if you want to implement such a policy as checking folks when they leave the store, like they do at Costco's or BJ's, then you had better do it to everyone and not just me or black men. Yes, I have a problem with that! And you would too.

 

I told you guys about the time I bought my BMW motorcycle. What a great day, June 23rd, 2000, I am finally getting that motorcycle I have dreamed of owning for years! In fact, I was a fan of the BMW RT since it debuted back in 1977 or so. I just signed the papers, was handed the keys, and I rode off from the dealership. I hadn't ridden more than 2 miles when I hit the first traffic light. I look to my right, and there in the parking lot is a Mass State Trooper. That inner voice told me, "James, given the way he's looking at you, expect to be pulled over". Naw, I'm just being paranoid because I'm on a new motorcycle. Light turns green, I ride about 200', and there in my mirrors is the cop car, lights ablazed, pulling me over. Reason: "your plate does not have an inspection sticker on it". It's a new friggen bike! In MA, you have something like 14 days to get a new vehicle inspected. Clearly I'm on a new bike, and there are 2 motorcycle dealers in the area. There are only 7 miles on the odometer. He very well could have said, "Oh, you only have 7 miles on the clock, it's a new bike. My mistake, have a great day, sir". But no, he keeps me there for 20 minutes while he combs over the paperwork, the bill of sale, and whatever. No officer, it's not stolen. Believe it or not, it really is MY bike!

 

Yet, if things turned bad, you know what the public would say? "Why did that black man get mad, the cop is simply ensuring all the vehicles on the road are 'safe'?" That would be the typical response. People, who themselves would never tolerate being so profiled, will NOT give me the benefit of the doubt. The subtle message, "he must have been up to no good or the cops wouldn't have 'profiled' him".

 

How many of you have to endure this type of treatment as an 'American'? C'mon, tell me your story.

 

I won't bore you any further with my profiling experiences, but they are numerous. Every time I write a story about one incident, I remember others that happened that I put off from my mind. The black experience is markedly different from your experience in this country as white men -- very very different. Thus, our different narratives on what happened that night.

 

You feel that Martin was likely guilty of something to provoke Zimmerman's attention. I absolutely, unequivocally, clearly, do not make that assumption. No I do NOT! I know good and well that Trayvon Martin could very well have been on the phone with his girlfriend, thinking about his NCAA basketball bracket, all the trash talk he has waiting for his friends on Monday, when all of a sudden he realizes he's being followed, just as I have been followed at various times in my own life.

 

This, as best as I can tell, is why our narratives differ.

[beemerman2k]

Therefore, anything out there, ANYTHING OUT THERE, that serves to hurt my credibility as a black man is my enemy. So what could it be that hurts my credibility in the eyes of the public?

 

Hmmm, maybe it's the image put forth by Bill Cosby? Yes, that's it. When people see me, they think to themselves, "that might be a Bill Cosby entering our store, we had better baton down the hatches". But wait, everyone loves Bill Cosby. So probably not him.

 

Maybe, it's the leader of our country? (trying to not cross the line here ) That must be it. He is highly controversial after all. Maybe when I walk into Targets, they're thinking, "Oh, that guy might be like...him, so we had better baton down the hatches". Wait, that can't be, they know the he is far too busy at the White House to come here and shoplift.

 

So what forces out there might be contributing to this 'profiling' of the black man?

 

It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out, folks. It's that black man whose in your face, with all his gold (do they still wear gold or is that an '80s thing?) and tattoos and guns and trash talk about how they are going to fight the cops and so on -- there's the problem right there! There's where the credibility of people like me has gone. Right there. And therefore, it must be stopped, done away with, and I am no friend of that music genre. It is poison, social poison, pure and simple.

 

This music genre adds to the tendency for people to find it easy to believe that Trayvon Martin was up to no good that night, and that's ultimately what cost him his life. I'm here to tell you that this is not at all a safe assumption from the point of view, and the experiences, of the black man -- regardless of who that black man is.

[Dave McReynolds]

1- The probability of drawing a gun under the wrong conditions increases by 100% when a gun is carried.

 

Not to nit-pick, but then I am a CPA.

 

The probability of drawing a gun under the wrong conditions if a gun is not carried is zero %. The converse is not true, or guns would be drawn under the wrong conditions 100% of the time when they are carried.

[moshe_levy]

Earlier I suggested doing research on homicides (not just gun deaths) and data on the race of the

criminal, and race of the victim. (All, not only black on black) This is the context of Z's POV and

the recent break-ins the HOA had publicized and notified NW to be aware of. For Z, in that context, and given an accurate script of 911 call, Z's POV may make senses.

 

 

Ahhhhh, I see it now. So now we're able to get inside Zimmerman's head to determine his point of view, presumably based on his erudite reflection of crime statistics. I see now. Why is it that nobody offers to get into Trayvon's head, though. What's it like to be followed by a rent-a-cop with a gun, alone, as a young black kid? I'm sure Trayvon was pondering the finer points of equal justice under the law as it relates to himself, his family, friends, and maybe even ancestors. Right?

 

-MKL

[beemerman2k]

Exactly, Moshe. Why doesn't this 17 year old get any benefit of the doubt -- if I may phrase your question in terms I have been trying to communicate.

 

One question many blacks ask is this: what if a 28 year old black man killed a 17 year old white man in similar circumstances? Who would get the benefit of the doubt in that scenario? Most of us agree that the black man, self appointed neighborhood captain or not, would have never been released and sat behind bars from the night the incident occurred.

 

WHO gets the public benefit of the doubt, and why?

[DaveTheAffable]

You know what, if I am "biased" or "misguided", let me tell you why that might be.

 

Because I know that everyday I step outside my home, I am subject to be racially profiled by the police, some wannabe cop at the mall, security at the department store, the clerk at the local liquor store -- you guys have no idea what this is like! No idea, whatsoever.

 

You are right that we may not fully appreciate it. I have family members that are from diferent cultures who have.

 

But there is still NO evidence produced. Not ONE that he was profiled. Zimmerman was ASKED BY DISPATCH what Martin's race was. If Zimmerman did profile him ONLY on race (AND NONE OF US KNOW), then that was wrong.

 

1) What can we do about it... How can I help? (I'm serious!)

2) Approx 93% of all blacks murdered, are murdered by blacks. So, about 7000 blacks will be murdered by blacks this year. This is one kid, by one self-appointed block captain. It PALES in comparison to 7000 dead at the hands of their own community. How can I help?

3) Because of #2, I am told that many in the black community are afraid of their own community. How can I help?

4) Hundreds of millions of dollars will be spent and earned this year producing songs and videos that glorify abusing black women, and glorifying gangsters and drugs. They will be produced by, and predominantely purchased by, the black community. How can I help?

 

I am very serious. I'm not "in your face". I wish I knew some answers. I believe that the people I speak of above are truly members of MY community.

[beemerman2k]

WHO gets the public benefit of the doubt, and why?

 

By the way, let me also emphasize that there is no "incorrect" answer to this question. The question is being posed simply to get us to think about the basis of the assumptions behind our personal, mental narratives, that's all. We are all compiling a likely story of what took place that night based upon the sum total of our life experiences. The cops have theirs, I as a black man have mine, you as a white man have yours, the women among us have theirs, and so on.

 

Some of you might feel this way: "Well, gee Beemerman, I hate to tell you this, but I am a cop, or I am a store manager, or I do own a retail business, or... and let me tell you what, every time we have targeted a black man for profiling, we were dead right, spot on, and stopped a crime in progress. That experience you had at Lord and Taylor, where the black man ran past you with a arm load of stolen goods? How would you suggest the retailers of America protect themselves from the constant losses to their businesses?"

 

Again, understanding the why behind our personal narratives is all I am hoping to accomplish here.

[beemerman2k]

1) What can we do about it... How can I help? (I'm serious!)

2) 7000 blacks will be murdered by blacks this year. This is one kid, by one self-appointed block captain. It PALES in comparison to 7000 dead at the hands of their own community. How can I help?

3) Because of #2, I am told that many in the black community are afraid of their own community. How can I help?

4) Hundreds of millions of dollars will be spent and earned this year producing songs and videos that glorify abusing black women, and glorifying gangsters and drugs. They will be produced by, and predominantely purchased by, the black community. How can I help?

 

I am very serious. I'm not "in your face". I wish I knew some answers. I believe that the people I speak of above are truly members of MY community.

 

What a beautiful post.

 

In all honesty, Dave, not only do I believe your sincerity, but I believe that your views are the same of most Americans in general, and more than likely, everyone participating in this thread, or you wouldn't bother to participate. All of us are frustrated and beyond tired of this nonsense inflicting our society, and yet we don't hold much hope that it will go away any time soon.

 

My only hope, is that we can reach understanding. That doesn't mean agreement, but it does mean understanding -- the "why" behind our personal narratives, and the "why" behind the fact that our narratives disagree depending upon our respective race and life experiences. Once we have understanding, maybe we can then make the leap to see how we can all help the situation.

[beemerman2k]

One thing I like to do from time to time, and maybe not often enough , is to take the opposing side of an argument. So, in this case, it means to cite to myself all the reasons why Travon Martin just might be guilty of something that George Zimmerman tried to stop. Well, let's see, where do I start?

 

- The Rodney King incident was set up as a "innocent black man beat by the racist, white police", yet time and more video tape has shown that King was not so innocent, and the police were not so racist.

 

- The OJ Simpson case with that, "if it don't fit, you must acquit" nonsense, was positioned as, "innocent black man who is blamed by the racist police for the deaths of his wife and her friend", yet time has illustrated that OJ was as guilty as LA is decadent, which is to say, very!

 

- The Duke Lacrosse team was accused in what was a "innocent black woman, who happened to be a nice and friendly prostitute only interested in helping these young men have a great time, was sexually accosted by these racist animals", only for time to reveal that these men were as innocent as Duke is a haven for intellect, and this woman was no helpless sheep by any means.

 

Hmmmm, OK, I'm starting to see a pattern here. Maybe, just maybe, Trayvon Martin, the "innocent black man" of the week, is in reality, as guilty as Florida is hot? And maybe, Zimmerman, is yet another white man who is going to fall victim to a machine that as an overreaction to past wrongs, seeks to overcompensate by exonerating as many blacks as possible at the cost of innocent whites. In other words, in times past, black lives were sacrificed, nowaways, these nuts want to sacrifice my white life in response!

 

OK. So what to do? Wait and see, remain open, discuss and try our best to see things through each others eyes. Refrain from any assumptions of any point of view being right and any other point of view being wrong.

 

But this doesn't mean we cannot openly and honestly share our narratives. It only means that it would be foolish for any of us to assume our narrative is the correct one, until all the facts are in. This, to me, is a critical formula for living life in general, and I will always strive to do this (and if I don't, I know you guys will call me on it! :smirk:).

[sebjones906]

I am always amazed that everyone can have such specific opinions on a case that has yet to see a courtroom and has yet to be tried in anything but the Media. Remember the MacMartin case. The media had the MacMartins tried and hung. Do any of you remember that they were found TOTALLY innocent. One man spent two years in jail without bail and one woman had a stroke.

 

I have no idea what happened that night in the Trayvon Martin case and neither does anyone else. All we have is the internet and the news to tell us how to think. Really? The news and the internet is always right? Let's remember that the News is just trying to sell us their view. Take a deep breath everyone.

[upflying]

 

Ahhhhh, I see it now. So now we're able to get inside Zimmerman's head to determine his point of view, presumably based on his erudite reflection of crime statistics. I see now. Why is it that nobody offers to get into Trayvon's head, though. What's it like to be followed by a rent-a-cop with a gun, alone, as a young black kid? I'm sure Trayvon was pondering the finer points of equal justice under the law as it relates to himself, his family, friends, and maybe even ancestors. Right?

 

-MKL

Just a point of clarification but being a member of "Neighborhood Watch" group does not imply employment as a rent a cop or a security guard. Z was acting alone and was outside the guidelines and purpose of neighborhood watch.

Some pages back, I did offer a look inside Trayvon's head.

[beemerman2k]

I have no idea what happened that night in the Trayvon Martin case and neither does anyone else. All we have is the internet and the news to tell us how to think. Really? The news and the internet is always right? Let's remember that the News is just trying to sell us their view. Take a deep breath everyone.

 

The value to us all that I hope this thread delivers is a better understanding of the differences in our respective narratives. Maybe we can learn that simplistic terms such as "racist" or "victim" or whatever are cop out terms used to mask the true complexities of the validity and veracity of each persons viewpoint. In other words, we learn to look past the surface of what people say, especially people whose views differ from our own, to appreciate the why behind their saying so. If we can get to that point from this discussion, then I think that is a significant accomplishment right there.

[moshe_levy]

Bob, you are 100% right. I actually gave him too much credit by calling him a rent-a-cop, and I subscribe to your view re his mentality in your original point.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

Without having to stretch I can easily put myself in either man's position and the end result may be the same.

 

 

This was a perfect storm that ended in death.

 

 

L

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Running errands today, and thinking about the issues raised in this thread, a rather uncomfortable memory returned to my mind.

 

When my oldest daughter was about 5 years old, she and the girl next door, who is her same age, often played together. This one day, I am with them both, and we ran to the local mall for some reason (why we did I don't remember). While we were there, an elderly white woman approached the two of them and heaped all manner of praises on the young white girl, right in front of my daughter, yet never even acknowledged my daughters existence. I interjected between all her, "you're so beautiful"'s to the young white girl, "yes, these are both beautiful little girls", yet she kept on and on, never acknowledging my daughters presence. Never said hello, never even looked at her.

 

My daughter was too young to appreciate what just took place, and I wrestled with trying to explain things to her, but I declined to do so. I'm going to have to ask her, now that she's 15 years old, if she remembers that encounter at the mall.

 

These kind of incidents make an indelible imprint on the human heart. You learn, real good, that some people have absolutely no regard for you simply because of the color of your skin. So when you hear stories like what happened in Sanford, FL, you don't know if they're true or not, but they ring true to the heart that has experienced a similar disregard from society.

 

Being white, I doubt you can really appreciate the significance of this elderly woman's behavior to my daughters outlook. 99% of the dolls at the local store are white dolls, white women are the epitome of beauty, and black women are often invisible. In spite of all this, my job is to raise my daughters to believe that they are second to none, and that they can accomplish anything they set their hearts on.

 

I wish that woman had simply kept her mouth shut and kept on walking. But you cannot even begin to imagine the sources of this "racial divide" that we experience in this country. No idea!

[Polo]

1- The probability of drawing a gun under the wrong conditions increases by 100% when a gun is carried.

 

Not to nit-pick, but then I am a CPA.

 

The probability of drawing a gun under the wrong conditions if a gun is not carried is zero %. The converse is not true, or guns would be drawn under the wrong conditions 100% of the time when they are carried.

 

Hmm... you're nit-picking, but then, you're a CPA.

 

I think the way you're saying it conveys my idea better than the way I expressed it.

 

[pmurphy]

Cry me a river!

 

America is about opportunity, not entitlement. You want to learn about true discrimination, walk in my (white) shoes for a while. Legal discrimination in the form of "affirmative action" resulted in me having to leave the country of my birth (USA) for years to make a living. I spent years is Saudi Arabia, where one of the more quaint laws is that if you get in a traffic accident with a Saudi, you are automatically at fault because it you were not there, they could have not hit you. You want to talk discrimination, try Saudi for a while.

 

The Irish learned to assimilate, and they were once regarded lower than the blacks; Same with the Chinese, and so many more. How many countries where founded by convicts? I don't hear the Australians demanding entitlements.

 

Why is it that we can have a NAACP, but not a NAAWP?

 

Boo Hoo Hoo. Poor little Beamerman2k!

 

Patrick,

Veteran,

Ex-patriot,

American.

 

And I earned every bit of it.

[Kathy R]

As painful as your stories are in the retelling, it really does matter that they are part of the public dialog. Thank you for opening yourself up, James. I can never really walk in another's shoes, but I sure do want to try. Knowledge and understanding are the way to enlightenment.

[upflying]

Just had another thought to add about what might be going on inside Zimmerman's head.

On February 18th, Peter Cukor, age 67 was bludgeoned to death outside his Berkeley home. It seems his call to Berkeley PD to report a suspicious person on and near his property went unanswered because Berkeley PD was occupied with an Occupy protest.

Cukor was unable to defend himself against the intruder who had armed himself with a flower pot.

23 year old Daniel DeWitt was subsequently located nearby and arrested for murder.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/breaking-news/ci_20390728/family-man-bludgeoned-death-criticize-berkeley-police-response

The report of this murder went "viral" nationwide as they say due to senseless nature of it and the inability of BPD to respond to Cukor's call for help.

Since Z appears to take an interest in crime, it is possible Zimmerman read about or was aware of the Cukor case. One week later, the Trayvon incident occurred on February 26th.

Did Zimmerman have Cukor on his mind when he confronted Trayvon?

Did he make a personal promise to himself that he was not going to end up like Cukor?

We don't know obviously but if I was Zimmerman's defense team I would certainly bring up the Cukor case during trial. The trial will be all about the state of mind of Zimmerman and Trayvon.

[beemerman2k]

Cry me a river!

 

America is about opportunity, not entitlement. You want to learn about true discrimination, walk in my (white) shoes for a while. Legal discrimination in the form of "affirmative action" resulted in me having to leave the country of my birth (USA) for years to make a living. I spent years is Saudi Arabia, where one of the more quaint laws is that if you get in a traffic accident with a Saudi, you are automatically at fault because it you were not there, they could have not hit you. You want to talk discrimination, try Saudi for a while.

 

Patrick, I couldn't agree more, America is about opportunity, not entitlements. Truer words are seldom spoken

 

Question for you, though: what "entitlement" do you think I seek other than being entitled to form my own narrative, or my own opinion about this case, based upon my own personal experiences?

 

The Irish learned to assimilate, and they were once regarded lower than the blacks;

 

The horror!

 

Same with the Chinese, and so many more. How many countries where founded by convicts? I don't hear the Australians demanding entitlements.

 

Why is it that we can have a NAACP, but not a NAAWP?

 

Boo Hoo Hoo. Poor little Beamerman2k!

 

Patrick,

Veteran,

Ex-patriot,

American.

 

And I earned every bit of it.

 

Sounds like you did earn every bit of it.

 

Are you suggesting that I have not earned my American citizenship? What would you suggest I do to be regarded and respected as a full American citizen? And until I do that, should I accept my rightful place as a second class citizen? What's your point here?

[beemerman2k]

Knowledge and understanding are the way to enlightenment.

 

[beemerman2k]

Wow, that's a hell of a story.

 

How come you are the only person in this thread who can safely question the suitability of Zimmerman on the night in question without getting a flood of challenges to your position?

 

Do you see how Patrick just lectured me? Do you think I am looking for entitlements? NAACP membership? Affirmative Action benefits? A freebie BMW K1600GT to help with my "social wounds"? OK, I'll take it. Gee, I feel better already

[upflying]

Wow, that's a hell of a story.

 

How come you are the only person in this thread who can safely question the suitability of Zimmerman on the night in question without getting a flood of challenges to your position?

 

Do you see how Patrick just lectured me? Do you think I am looking for entitlements? NAACP membership? Affirmative Action benefits? A freebie BMW K1600GT to help with my "social wounds"? OK, I'll take it. Gee, I feel better already

 

I dunno B2k, 30 years as a LEO kind of made me an armchair psychologist. Looking into the minds of people is what LEO's are supposed to do. It's still early, I am sure there will be a flood of comments when I wake up tomorrow and check the forum.

My post was purely speculative and should not be considered my "position". I would not be surprised if we hear about it during Z's trial.

Patrick's comments border on the work of a troll, ignore it and they go away.

 

 

[pmurphy]

Sounds like you did earn every bit of it.

 

Are you suggesting that I have not earned my American citizenship? What would you suggest I do to be regarded and respected as a full American citizen? And until I do that, should I accept my rightful place as a second class citizen? What's your point here?

 

What am am stating it that you have the opportunity to rise as high as your abilities and fortunes allow.

If you regard yourself as a second class citizen, it is because you choose to.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that women in the mall was not calling your child ugly, you choose to view it such. And in viewing it as such, you choose to inform that women that she was not entitled to compliment that little girl, unless she was willing to also compliment every other little girl in the vicinity.

 

It is easy to not to try. It is easy to claim you never had a chance. But none of that is true. In the end it is all about how hard you wanted it in the first place, and how hard you are willing to work to succeed.

 

In the end, it is all about what you have earned, not what you think you were entitled to just because you showed up for the party.

 

It's easy to earn citizenship, just be born here.

America owes you nothing but a chance. The rest is up to you.

 

[bobbybob]

There may be other things to consider at trial besides trying to get inside Trayvon's and Z's minds that night. I haven't seen anyone mention ballistics testing. Was it done by the original police investigators? Or only after the special prosecutor showed up? If the latter, this will present a big credibility problem for the local police. And what will those tests show? Was he shot at point blank range in the chest---or 20 ft. away at an oblique angle? Or in the back? Was he shot more than once?

 

There will be lots of things entered as evidence besides psycho-analyzing the perp & victim.....will be interesting.

[beemerman2k]

Patrick's comments border on the work of a troll, ignore it and they go away.

 

I am wondering about his comments. What I am asking myself is this, "are Patrick's sentiments what most everyone on the forum wants to say, but won't?" Patrick's sentiments make a world of assumptions that betray his own prejudices.

 

I do not now, nor have I ever worked a job that I earned through some sort of affirmative action program. What I do for a living is to write software for companies on a contract basis. What that means is this:

 

- I am self employed. I am paid just as that business would pay another contractor to paint their walls or construct an addition to the building.

 

- My client gets no affirmative action points for doing business with me. None. Furthermore, they can terminate their contract with me at will. They are not answerable to anyone if they choose to do so.

 

- I compete with other programmers from all over the world, namely from India and America.

 

- My college education was earned entirely in night school. I did not get any grants, only loans, and I worked all through my educational years.

 

If affirmative action never existed, or went away tomorrow, it would not make a bit of difference for me and my livelihood.

 

So, I also feel that I have earned every contract that I competed for, and won. I spend a significant amount of my free time constantly educating myself to stay current with the fast changing landscape of software development. Our earning rates have plummeted since the bursting of the tech bubble, we now make less than half of the annual income we earned in the 90's, and that's not adjusted for inflation!

 

So, Patrick, and anyone else who cares to know, this is my story

[moshe_levy]

I am wondering about his comments.

 

I am not. They're about as deep as the puddle outside on my driveway after a drizzle. Pathetically simple-minded, absolutely devoid of historical context, totally self-rightous nonsense that doesn't deserve a response in return. And I thought I needed a shower BEFORE he showed up...

 

-MKL

[beemerman2k]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that women in the mall was not calling your child ugly, you choose to view it such. And in viewing it as such, you choose to inform that women that she was not entitled to compliment that little girl, unless she was willing to also compliment every other little girl in the vicinity.

 

Patrick, you jump to lots of conclusions, don't you?

 

The issue is that the woman completely disregarded my daughter, never even acknowledged her presence! When that happens, yes, I regard it as a slight, as an insult. I'm sorry, that's how I am. Maybe because I was raised to address everyone if I see them in a group. To first acknowledge all, maybe by introducing myself, shaking hands, whatever, then focus on the person at hand. I don't simply go up to your friend, standing right next to you, chat with him and pretend you are not there. I say, "hello" to you both, THEN I ask your friend about his custom bike, and tell him what a beauty it is. Now, you realize that I have acknowledged your presence, that I feel you are equally as human as your friend, but that your friends bike is particularly appealing to me, so that's why I approached you two in the first place.

 

I don't care if that woman thinks my daughter is cute or not, I think she's cute and that's enough. But at least say, "hello", at least recognize her existence, that's what I teach my children to do, it's only common manners.

 

But when you're black, in a crowd of white, and someone simply does not acknowledge your existence, yes, it's difficult. You already feel a bit uncomfortable, nothing like an incident like that to drive the uncomfortability home.

 

My daughters, all three of them, Patrick, are over achievers in school. They are well on their way to make something of themselves. We're not sitting at home thinking, "boo-hoo Beemerman2k" :smile: Is that what you think we're doing over here?

 

OK, so Pat's not contributing to my new, custom Michigan Football Maize and Blue colored 2013 BMW K1600GT to help me overcome such great social oppression. Dang.

[pmurphy]

Patrick's comments border on the work of a troll, ignore it and they go away.

 

I am wondering about his comments. What I am asking myself is this, "are Patrick's sentiments what most everyone on the forum wants to say, but won't?" Patrick's sentiments make a world of assumptions that betray his own prejudices.

 

I do not now, nor have I ever worked a job that I earned through some sort of affirmative action program. What I do for a living is to write software for companies on a contract basis. What that means is this:

 

- I am self employed. I am paid just as that business would pay another contractor to paint their walls or construct an addition to the building.

 

- My client gets no affirmative action points for doing business with me. None. Furthermore, they can terminate their contract with me at will. They are not answerable to anyone if they choose to do so.

 

- I compete with other programmers from all over the world, namely from India and America.

 

- My college education was earned entirely in night school. I did not get any grants, only loans, and I worked all through my educational years.

 

If affirmative action never existed, or went away tomorrow, it would not make a bit of difference for me and my livelihood.

 

So, I also feel that I have earned every contract that I competed for, and won. I spend a significant amount of my free time constantly educating myself to stay current with the fast changing landscape of software development. Our earning rates have plummeted since the bursting of the tech bubble, we now make less than half of the annual income we earned in the 90's, and that's not adjusted for inflation!

 

So, Patrick, and anyone else who cares to know, this is my story

 

No, you are looking for prejudice where there is none.

I see a teenager killed in a struggle with an adult. That is all.

 

I am tired of seeing people play the race card.

 

We have our trials. And there are people looking down their nose at all of us. Better house, better car, more attractive spouse, there is always someone looking down at you with disdain.

 

You choose to use the race card. I say justice should be blind.

Just because you can imagine that racial discrimination was there does not mean that it was. You choose to see it that way, and judged that person a racist.

 

It is easy to blame, it is easy to make excuses, it is easy to play the race card. It is a lot harder to play on a even field.

[Matts_12GS]

Being white, I doubt you can really appreciate the significance of this elderly woman's behavior to my daughters outlook.

 

My, what racism James. How disappointing that you took the words of a fool and made them your own...

[beemerman2k]

Being white, I doubt you can really appreciate the significance of this elderly woman's behavior to my daughters outlook.

 

My, what racism James. How disappointing that you took the words of a fool and made them your own...

 

Matt, do you feel you can appreciate the significance of this moment? If so, you have made my day. Pats reaction, sadly, is more in line with what I was expecting to hear.

 

Sorry all for my own racial myopia.

[beemerman2k]

No, you are looking for prejudice where there is none.

I see a teenager killed in a struggle with an adult. That is all.

 

I am tired of seeing people play the race card.

 

We have our trials. And there are people looking down their nose at all of us. Better house, better car, more attractive spouse, there is always someone looking down at you with disdain.

 

You choose to use the race card. I say justice should be blind.

Just because you can imagine that racial discrimination was there does not mean that it was. You choose to see it that way, and judged that person a racist.

 

It is easy to blame, it is easy to make excuses, it is easy to play the race card. It is a lot harder to play on a even field.

 

Patrick, please tell me about my blaming, my excuses, my race card.

 

Everybody, listen up: Just as you imagine in your own minds what happened on that night, so do I. Just like you have an opinion on the likelihood of various scenarios, so do I. SO DO I.

 

Why is it that everyone pretends that I am the only one who has formed a mental narrative of that evenings events?

 

From my unique point of view, I have a narrative. So do you, Patrick.

 

But if I have a narrative, it's called, "the race card". If you have a narrative, it's called, what -- an equal playing field?

 

My narrative reflects my experiences.