Harley wins C.H.P. bid.

[TowJam]

And yeah, they start slow. The ECU is designed to let the engine turn over three times to build flywheel momentum before the spark fires the first time.

Not to beat a dead horse but this would still be quicker than the BMW's ABS self-check when you first turn on the ignition. It seems to take about 10 seconds before I get the "all clear?" signal to hit the starter. Or, do LEOs usually let the BMW idle or just leave the ignition "on" when doing traffic work (radar, etc.)?

[motorman587]

Tallahassee Police Manual General Order 27 "Pursuits"

Definitions:

Vehicle Pursuits:

An officer's use of an authorized emergency vehicle, using emergency lights and siren, in active attempt to apprehend at least one occupant of another vehicle when the driver of the other vehicle is reasonably believed to be aware of the attempt and is cautiously (without violating traffic laws) or recklessly resisting apprehension. Following a driver believed to br proceeding to a safer or more public area and closing-in on another vehicle (by exceeding the speed limit) to affect a traffic stop is not considered a pursuit.

[Motors]

It is highly unlikely that HD will provide CHP with Motors that have 103" engines. Three reasons: cost, cost, cost!

 

Motorman

[motorman587]

If you go the Harley web site they already have the police color for the CHP which you can order.

[OldMotor]

Harley dropped off two bikes (Electra Glide and a Roadking)during the summer for a "courtesy test". Neither bike pased the performance test with the 88 engine and being stock. Harley then tweaked the bike and it apparently passed. Only problem was that they had to mess with the emissions and put on a pipe which you cannot legally run in Ca. So, now they had a bike which was legal in the other 49 states, but not in Ca. The reps. from HD stated to the staff at the academy that they were probably need to put the 103 in the Electra Glide to meet the standard. HD wanted the perfomance test changed from be able to get up to 100 mph in 1/2 a mile to getting up to 90 mph in 1/2 a mile. They have to be stock bikes and Ca. compliant. HD has stated numerous times to the CHP staff that they will do whatever it takes to get the contract. It will be interesting to see. They could show up again with the 88 engine and see what happens at the test. Maybe they can tweak the engine somehow, still be compliant and pass the test. And the test must be done with all the equipment on the bike.

[upflying]

Thanks mike., it just confirms what I said in an earlier post. At 80 mph, my stock 88 inch Road King was all finished accelerating.

Interesting that CHP is requiring bikes to be California emissions legal. I'm not sure if you were on motors in the early 90's but CHP rode HD FXRTP's in those days. This was the 80 cubic inch EVO powered model with the large rounded, frame mounted fairing. My agency piggy backed on to the state bid and got CHP spec FXRTP's to use.

It was the fastest Harley I ever rode and the reason was because the bike came with a "49 state cam" as standard equipment. Civilian Harleys sold in California at the time had a "California cam". This was really a "smog cam" that gave high manifold vacuum and more control of the emissions. This cam gave the HD the acceleration of a Yugo and clearly was not acceptable to CHP at that time.

Since 49 state bikes were ok 15 years ago, what has changed today?

[Pilgrim]

It is highly unlikely that HD will provide CHP with Motors that have 103" engines. Three reasons: cost, cost, cost!

 

Motorman

 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

We already know that Harley will provide the bikes as a loss leader at prices at or near their production cost.

 

In adequate production volume (which large police orders would help ensure), the cost of a 103" engine will not be much more than an 88" engine. It's not like they're hand-built or anything; they're not. There's just a longer-stroke crank, bigger bore cylinders & pistons, and different cams.

 

Hey, Upflying - My FXRT is one of the first 700 or so produced with an Evo engine (the '83s were shovelheads). Before there was much modification data out there on Evos I called Harley (back when you could speak to a real, actual engineer)to ask how much I could have the heads milled. They guy I spoke to said that the copsickles were cut sixty thou from the factory to give a comp ratio of about ten to one versus the stock 8.5. He said it ought to be a safe number but would require having valve pockets milled into the piston crowns to assure clearance. When I had the job done I found that the pistons already had pockets, so I presume Harley was anticipating the mod.

 

I did it, and it made a helluva difference in the acceleration snap. It also brought the real top end up to about 110 from 105, more or less.

 

However, I have never found any sort of documentation that the mod was an official thing. It might have been something they did to some bikes to meet the performance criteria California wanted.

 

Pilgrim

[OldMotor]

I was in a car when we had the HDs last time. I did have have a 91 FXRS very similar bike other then the fairing and loved it. What has changed now is the governor's office is having a lot of imput on what bike we need. I quess we all need to be terminators.

 

I did look at the HD web site and must admit it is a pretty bike. Not thrilled about cleaning it though.

[scottd]

quote: CHP is requiring bikes to be California emissions legal

 

They are the only ones worrying about it if thats the case. Several local agencies around Sacramento have Road King cop bikes and every one I've seen has aftermarket pipes and air cleaner.

[Warren_H]

quote: CHP is requiring bikes to be California emissions legal

 

They are the only ones worrying about it if thats the case. Several local agencies around Sacramento have Road King cop bikes and every one I've seen has aftermarket pipes and air cleaner.

 

If the CA Air Resources Board discovers this they'll fine them. ARB SETTLES TWO MOTORCYCLE CASES FOR $400,000.00

[James Clark]

quote: CHP is requiring bikes to be California emissions legal

 

They are the only ones worrying about it if thats the case. Several local agencies around Sacramento have Road King cop bikes and every one I've seen has aftermarket pipes and air cleaner.

 

If the CA Air Resources Board discovers this they'll fine them. ARB SETTLES TWO MOTORCYCLE CASES FOR $400,000.00

 

 

 

Skip to the last page of this document.

[Warren_H]

I understand the need for police vehicles to perform, who knows the life they save may be mine. However, Government Agencies should follow the rules they establish for the rest of us.

[baggerchris]

I believe the 103 inchers also have a different; bigger starting system.

[MotorDet]

Having retired 2 months ago after the last 20 of my 30 yr career being on motors, it pains me to hear this news...that the "bean counters" have won out. A few of the CHP motors will have been looking forward to Hardleys usurping Beemers, but those will have overlooked the shortcomings at any price. Wait until they realize that this beast has no center stand, has way more emphasis on chrome and sound rather than performance and rider safety, and is in the shop waaaay too often. They will start the bike up one morning (actually, several mornings) and find that it will not hold the idle due to a particular locking nut (on the idle solenoid?) missing after falling off due to vibration. And, of course, the exhaust pipes cracking at the "Y" juncture at the rear cylinder. If the "casual" riders reading this feel that I am unduly slamming their Sunday ride (a ride that has served them well & has been reliable to date) please be aware of the difference between casual riding and a hard work grind. I rode the Beemer with an incessant smile, while I was always apprehensive of the next breakdown with the Hardley. Thank the Gods for the smaller, independant cities that actually listen to the people that ride the scooters, as opposed to the checkbook only. I'm through..flamers welcome, bring it on <grin>.

 

Mike

[MotorDet]

"They will easily run in the 120 mph range all day but fuel mi is not so great even cruzing around"

 

Oh pleeeeeese! Not one of ours, not ONE of ours (out of 10) would pass 108 mph! And that was a slow grind from 100 upwards, the poor old bike flailing away on the freeway raingroves like there was no tomorrow! Man, I was so glad to get off of the HD. You must be remembering "the good ol days of HD" (if there was one).

Mike

[riding4work]

quote: CHP is requiring bikes to be California emissions legal

 

They are the only ones worrying about it if thats the case. Several local agencies around Sacramento have Road King cop bikes and every one I've seen has aftermarket pipes and air cleaner.

 

If the CA Air Resources Board discovers this they'll fine them. ARB SETTLES TWO MOTORCYCLE CASES FOR $400,000.00

 

 

 

Skip to the last page of this document.

 

 

How about this, "Police vehicles are exempt from emissions requirments"

[Eschelon1]

Not just a backwards step in perofrmance, but in Handling and Braking as well.

 

If it happens, it happens. That'll mean more RTPs available for us.

 

[James Clark]

How about this, "Police vehicles are exempt from emissions requirments"

 

Unless those requirements can be used to steer the contract to the highest bidder.

[motorman587]

Mike,

I too, glad that small department listen to us, the riders.

[Ron Jarvis]

HD is spending some of their marketing dollars by giving (or practically so) the bikes away. Watch how they use this in their advertising - they have 2 years to make it a smart expenditure/investment. Can they do it? Guess they were tired of being embarrassed.

[Ralph]

Has HD got the ABS thing working as yet, and where are they putting the pump?

[lithoman]

Wow. That sucks for A&S BMW. They were the supplier to the CHP, and one of the biggest dealers in the country because of it.

 

Yes it does! I know a few people that work there, they feel the same way!!

[lithoman]

There seems to be a lot of HD bashing in these here threads,

so with that said parts is parts right? I think not. Most bikes have the same components, rubber, metal, glass, etc.

The design of the potato motor is flawed to shake itself apart. It's hard to get them not to. rubber mounts, counterbalance shafts, and other tricks may help but they will eventually destroy themselves.

 

On the other hand look at the oil head boxer motor, It shakes, vibrates, and it doesn't fall apart?

 

look at this way, in Milwaukee I'm sure there's a lot of beer drinking at and after work at the HD factory.

 

In Germany, they consume more beer that we can shake a tail feather at the beemer factory and they seem to get their motors and bikes right!!

 

If HD is going to supply our CHP LEO's with scooters, at least give them a bike with a motor that doesnt shake the chrome off the tailpipes. Why not the vrod?

it's fast and furious

[motorman587]

Our Sheriff's department are on 06 Harley's with ABS and they are working fine. I knew of one motor that had an ABS problem, which was minor. I do not know if it is the pump or not but something takes up 1/2 of the saddle bag on the right side.

[Motors]

The saddlebag contains the ABS system. It takes up at least half of the bag! Darn, no room for extra coupon books!

[Ralph]

Does it come in Chromed Billit??? J/K

[sfarson]

There seems to be a lot of HD bashing in these here threads,

so with that said parts is parts right? I think not. Most bikes have the same components, rubber, metal, glass, etc.

The design of the potato motor is flawed to shake itself apart. It's hard to get them not to. rubber mounts, counterbalance shafts, and other tricks may help but they will eventually destroy themselves.

 

On the other hand look at the oil head boxer motor, It shakes, vibrates, and it doesn't fall apart?

 

I've had far fewer problems, over many years, with products from Milwaukee (actually zero) versus Munich.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

What, no glowing mention of Honda in there?

 

[scottd]

I'm guessing the rubber motor mounts could be a weak link. My RK broke 2 and the 103 is going to shake more. Also the cam chain tensioners are plastic. My bike ate those at 37000. S&S has a gear drive setup for that but HD isn't going that route because it is noisy.

[Dick Bennett]

...HD isn't going that route because it is noisy.

 

huh????

[baggerchris]

In my feeble understanding of the situation, the Twin Cam Harley (mine is an evo), has two cams driven off of a chain with cam chain tensioners. While semi efficient they ARE quiet. The firm of S & S has a replacement system that uses gears, and while more effcient, they are a lot more noisy.

[scottd]

You have to remember that Harley has to pass the same noise standards everyone else has to. A stock Harley is quiet.

[lithoman]

There seems to be a lot of HD bashing in these here threads,

so with that said parts is parts right? I think not. Most bikes have the same components, rubber, metal, glass, etc.

The design of the potato motor is flawed to shake itself apart. It's hard to get them not to. rubber mounts, counterbalance shafts, and other tricks may help but they will eventually destroy themselves.

 

On the other hand look at the oil head boxer motor, It shakes, vibrates, and it doesn't fall apart?

 

I've had far fewer problems, over many years, with products from Milwaukee (actually zero) versus Munich.

 

everyone has some luck now and then

[James Clark]

...HD isn't going that route because it is noisy.

 

huh????

 

Some installations generate noise from a tight fit between gear sets. Undersize gears are available to address this issue when required.

[sfarson]

What, no glowing mention of Honda in there?

 

 

 

Oh yeah, zero/nada/zilch problemos with Honda as well . Hope your XX has come back together well.

[bobiverson]

One has to put things in perspective on this subject:

 

Cops don't drive Jaguars or Volvos -- they drive Ford Crown Vics with exploding gas tanks.

 

Also, no one can tell me that community police purchasing departments don't feel pressure to "buy American" so that their cops are out on HD's rather than German bikes. I do think that this is a very serious consideration in red states (blue states being somewhat more educated, but not necessarily less influenced by BS politics).

 

It's clear that BWM motorcycles are far technically superior to HD motorcycles -- by many different measuring sticks -- but that makes no difference.

 

Police cars should be Volvos, but they are Crown Vics. That's all that needs to be said.

[ian408]

You've missed my point. There is no doubt that the marketplace is global. I am not talking about private citizens making purchases for their own use. We as private citizens, are entitled to the benefits that a global economy can offer us. However, I am talking about out government and its support or lack of support of American industry. Other governments support their national industry to a much greater extent than the U.S. does. I believe that the least we can do as a country is for our own government to support our American industry. It is sad that this point would even be debated here, I can guarantee you that Japan, Germany and Korea's governments give a lot more support to their national industry than the U.S. does.

 

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you believe gov't should

support American industry, then sell all of your foreign made goods and buy

American.

 

Ian

[motorman587]

My mother is German and I carry a German gun. Guess, they should've never hired me.

[Pilgrim]

It's clear that BWM motorcycles are far technically superior to HD motorcycles -- by many different measuring sticks -- but that makes no difference.

 

Actually, at least the way you've said it in such broad terms, it's not clear at all to me. Wanta argue, or just perhaps qualify your statement to say "It appears to me that BMW is, for police purposes, superior to HD."

 

I'd definitely agree that they are technically superior to my 21 year-old FXRT (and it doesn't matter a bit to me), but not to the current models.

 

Because as a general statement, you're mistaken.

 

Pilgrim

[jgrant]

Cops don't drive Jaguars or Volvos -- they drive Ford Crown Vics with exploding gas tanks.

 

I agree about the Crown Vics. That is boderline criminal on the part of Ford. That being said...as a taxpayer I would not be happy seing LEO's in Volvo's or Jags.

 

On a side note: why would you want LEO's in another Ford product if one is causing them trouble now?

[upflying]

The CHP did drive Volvo's

http://www.norcalscan.org/photo/law/

[Paul Mihalka]

The CHP did drive Volvo's

http://www.norcalscan.org/photo/law/

And SAABs in Aspen, CO....

[jgrant]

The CHP did drive Volvo's

http://www.norcalscan.org/photo/law/

 

In NorCal of course

 

I don't exactly equate Volvo with authority. I equate Volvo with soccer mom's.

[baggerchris]

If you will go over to the tech section you will see yet another thread about what appears to be a spline failure after only 17K miles. I see too much of this stuff here to believe in BMW's highly touted "reliability" vs. Harley Davidson. All this stuff about how Beemers are supposed to be built so much better than Harleys etc. is kind of hard to take, especially since there are so many many more Harleys on the road compared to Beemers. And yes, you can say that the average Beemer rider rides more than the average Harley rider, but I think in the end what has happened here is that Harley has been making strides to bring their build quality up, while over the years, BMW's have slipped. As an example; Belt drive has proven itself over the years for pavement use, while the BMW driveshaft method seems to go on and on with problems. Have the new one's been fixed? Have they devised a better method to lube the splines for instance? Let's hope so. If BMW truly wants to increase their poor sales here in the States, they need to address some of these trouble spots. All brands have their trouble spots. After being on both the Harley sites and this one for these past years, it just looks to me like so far BMW has not stepped up to the plate as well as Harley who is making a genuine attempt at making their products better, as can be seen in the new trannys, and the cam chest fixes that they are putting in place. As was written in either Cycle World or the Motorcylist this past month, "Harley has been relentless in upgrading their products yearly" (a paraphrase as I don't have the article in front of me) Can BMW say the same? We certainly will see with the new R1200 and K bike series. And for the record, I don't see the need for the new fully linked brake system, OR the non-needed (in my opinion) servo system. My 1997 RT has ABS without servos, and does quite nicely thank you as does virtually every other bike out there. Doesn't it seem strange that BMW is the ONLY (that I can think of)bike maker with servos on their bikes? Why? Do they like the added expense or maintenance?

[James Clark]

The CHP did drive Volvo's

http://www.norcalscan.org/photo/law/

 

 

The CHP evaluated Volvos because they didn't want to be locked into one manufacturer after the Caprice was discontinued. Either they were oblivious to the fact that Ford owned Volvo or they hoped Joe Taxpayer wouldn't notice.

 

The CHP rejected Volvo's bid because Volvo was only offering wagons as the tested sedans were being discontinued. (Sound familiar?) Officially, it was because the V70 wagons were an older design than the sedans that they tested.

[Matts_12GS]

everyone has some luck now and then

 

I agree, my RT has been a PoS to me, and I am actively trying to replace it once I find the right bike to do it. Spline failure, pivot bearings, noisy dry clutch, etc. If it weren't paid for I would have already moved on to something else. YMMV.

[motorman587]

BMW is the leader in technology and that is why they have put servo and intergated brakes on their motorcycle. They were the first in 1981 to put ABS on their motorcycles. I sure back then people thought was a stupid idea. Now most motorcycle have ABS. BMW continues to push technology on motorcycle. First to have GPS, heated grips and seats.

[Ralph]

My mother is German and I carry a German gun. Guess, they should've never hired me.

 

Ditto. My family came from Germany also. Although it has been a long time ago. I traced family back to 1600 so far then hit a brick wall.

[Pilgrim]

BMW is the leader in technology and that is why they have put servo and intergated brakes on their motorcycle. They were the first in 1981 to put ABS on their motorcycles. I sure back then people thought was a stupid idea. Now most motorcycle have ABS. BMW continues to push technology on motorcycle. First to have GPS, heated grips and seats.

 

Well, maybe, John, I'll concede that ABS is a good idea, and BMW led the way. And an item you didn't mention but that really stands out is the BMW suspension, especially in front.

 

But to me, servo and integrated brakes are still a stupid idea.

 

Heated grips, etc, aren't technology, they're gadgets. Pleasant gadgets to be sure, but while I like them, I wouldn't miss them.

 

But there is no abstract standard of "best technology" in something as irrational as a motorcycle. The best technology is that which best addresses the rider's needs and desires. Law enforcement has one set of them; as a civilian pleasure rider of a certain mindset I have another. Within that framework of understanding, Harley has the best technology for me. In fact, my 21 year-old Harley's technology is as good as it needs to be.

Pilgrim

[lithoman]

BMW is the leader in technology

 

And it's not just in their bikes, it's in everything they build and design. they aren't afraid of stretching the bounds of mechanical design. ever see the hinge on a 2000 328i trunk lid? it's a beauty of a design in itself. There is so much R&D in being at the top that it's got to be hard not to pass the buck.. continuing to be the leader in technology I'm sure requires the utmost demand from their engineers all the way down to their mechanics.

 

just my 2 cents..