Harley wins C.H.P. bid.

[ericfoerster]

Yes David,the ones who actually RIDE at work.

It would also help if they had time on the Harley before they make a comparison. Unlike some folks here I've ridden them both on duty and this is where these bikes earn their money.

 

Not only am I a certified police motorcycle operator, I am an instructor as well.

I feel I am as qualified as the next guy to make the comparison having put both of these bikes through the rigors of work and training.

 

I can see a true lack of time on the Harley in some of these comments.

 

Lets be fair in the assessment process and have some fact based conversation.

[fatbob]

Who Can you chase down on a Hardly.. And you surely cant sneak up on anyone with nuts, bolts and mufflers fallen off and that smell of burning oil

 

 

boy am i going to get beat up for this post or what..

 

I've ridden a 103 C.I. Electra Glide, it's real fast and sweet to ride. I would'nt be surprised it it would outrun a new R1200RT up to 120 mph. Good for HD.

 

Bob

 

[BruceLaQuinta]

Just got back from the Long Beach Mototcycle show and both Honda and BMW had their police bikes on display. I did not see any Harley police bike. Kinda ironic.

 

IMO, the RT looked really good.

[Buckster]

Got any pics of the R1200RT Police model? Buck

[Jon_M]

I am always amazed that many people who are critical of American made vehicles conveniently forget that the governments of Germany, Japan and Korea actually support their home-based vehicle manufacturers and help them to thrive. Here in America, that seems to have become a foreign idea. No wonder our auto industry is floundering.

 

Loyalty is a good thing, so long as it is well informed. Harley would not be here if Reagan had not bailed them out in the early 'eighties with protective tariffs that shielded them from foreign, mainly Japanese, competition. They had time to regroup and restructure and now, if I read the business news correctly, they have a robust and devoted following despite the fact that they are heavily dependent on foreign-made parts. And American car companies do get government support in abundance in the form of tax incentives for big SUVs and a forgiving policy on CAFE standards. They fail to thrive because they keep squandering too many of their resources on low-imagination, poor quality vehicles that are always vulnerable to the shock of high gas prices and to competition from better quality "foreign" cars.

[BruceLaQuinta]

You can see some pics in this thread

 

web page

 

The one I saw had the traditional black and white paint scheme however.

[motorman587]

Eric,

I too am a ceritified instructor, in fact certifty the instructors also.

 

I rode a Harley for 5 years from 1996 to 2001. I put about 40000 miles on it. The first three Harleys had to get new engines in them within 3000 miles. I had parts fall off at speed. I had clutch replace almost every training day. It would stop running for no reason in two parades. It would wobble at high speeds and the brakes suck. I would never never ride a Harley again. They are and will be unsafe for police duty.

 

 

Why do must motor cops not say again, because most would probably be returned to patrol duty if they ran their mouth. Again I am lucky to work with a city and department that looks into the future.

 

I also rode a KZ1000 from 1994 to 1996. I am now on BMW and next year will get a new one. This is the first time in our department that we are continuing to keep what we have.

 

We all know that riding a Harley is an image also. My LT just bought a Harley. I asked him why he would ride a none ABS motorcycle. My LT is a big time crash investigator. He could not give a good answer. I know that his best friend rides a Harley and that is the reason he rides one.

 

I know Harley has ABS on their LEO models. It takes up 1/2 of a saddle bag. The first couple had a recall on them for being hook up wrong.

 

I wish that a motorcycle magizine would to a police bike shoot out.

[soboy]

I agree. However, it is also true that for many decades, the Japanese government has intentionally shielded its home based vehicle manufacturers from foreign (i.e., American) competition through a series of measures, including tariffs that made the American vehicles non-competitive price-wise.

[Lawman]

It bewilders me when people who have little experience and or knowledge about something criticize the experts in the field. The fact of the matter is that more motorcycle law enforcement officers in this country prefer HD than any other brand. I think it looks silly when people people who are not police officers and don't ride Harleys criticize those that are and do, especially when the numbers are overwhelming

[David]

It bewilders me when people who have little experience and or knowledge about something criticize the experts in the field. The fact of the matter is that more motorcycle law enforcement officers in this country prefer HD than any other brand. I think it looks silly when people people who are not police officers and don't ride Harleys criticize those that are and do, especially when the numbers are overwhelming

 

Lawman (and by extension, Eric),

 

I've ridden neither, and I know nothing about doing police work on a motorcycle. All that to say that my opinion is largely worthless.

 

But I would also be hesitant to read anything into the fact that Harleys are the most widely used police motorcycle. That means virtually nothing, too. It's like saying that most people in Africa prefer poverty (because a majority of them are experiencing it).

 

The point I'm trying to make is this: what matters is if a motor officer has experience with both makes AND they have a say in the decision. Very few motor officers qualify on either count, no?

[Lawman]

David,

I doubt many choose to live in poverty.

 

My experiience is limited to 24 years with Houston PD none of which were in the solo division but I knew many over that time period who were. Houston officers buy their own bikes just as they do their guns and I would estimate that during my tenure 95% chose Harley's. I have been the beneficiary of many of their discussions about this topic and they are a very experienced group..Fact of matter is I can only remember seeing two or maybe three bikes that were not HD and one of those guys went back to Harley after trying one other brand.

[James Clark]

Just got back from the Long Beach Mototcycle show and both Honda and BMW had their police bikes on display. I did not see any Harley police bike. Kinda ironic.

 

It was the brown bike in sheriff's livery. Next to the sidecar.

[David]

I doubt many choose to live in poverty.

 

Well, yeah, that's my point. We've long heard that if officers had all the data and a choice in the matter, there would be more RT-Ps in service.

 

My experiience is limited to 24 years with Houston PD none of which were in the solo division but I knew many over that time period who were. Houston officers buy their own bikes just as they do their guns and I would estimate that during my tenure 95% chose Harley's. I have been the beneficiary of many of their discussions about this topic and they are a very experienced group..Fact of matter is I can only remember seeing two or maybe three bikes that were not HD and one of those guys went back to Harley after trying one other brand.

 

If your experience is typical, then I'll have to defer to you and concede the argument. Because presumably they tried BMW RTPs before choosing, and they were the only ones to make a decision.

 

I still wonder why--if Harley's are such good police bikes--they have to be sold for a dollar to get departments to use them.

[upflying]

Isn't selling Harley's for one dollar a violation of anitrust laws?

My department (before I retired) buys new police Road Kings for $12,800. Yes, HD sells them at below cost to LEO agencies just to keep BMW out of consideration during the open bid process. The bean counters (acting in the best interest of the tax payer) at city hall want to buy the cheapest, not the best or the safest.

[Matts_12GS]

I was talking with a FHP officer as we put on rain gear in a gas station one day. I asked him about the RT-P and his only response was that there was too much money lost on RT-P.

Seems they can buy the Harley for about $16,000 ride it for 2 years or 50,000 miles and then sell them to civilians for about $17,000. Boys and girls that is called profit!

 

I could perchance see the argument about motor officers profilin' by riding HDs to assuage their image as Mr. Pretti states, I think that is a piss poor arguement, but I don't work in the "industry" so I'll cede that point. I always thought you guys had that same crew cut for that reason though...

 

IMNSHO I think it is far less insidious than any of these reasons, and I point the finger at BMWNA themselves. Two words, Dealer Support. If NA would get off their collective asses and open some more dealerships I think that the RT-P could likely overtake the Harley and the Honda authority platforms.

[Ken/OC]

But I would also be hesitant to read anything into the fact that Harleys are the most widely used police motorcycle. That means virtually nothing, too. It's like saying that most people in Africa prefer poverty (because a majority of them are experiencing it).

 

David, there's something terribly wrong with your logic here!

[Pilgrim]

Several things come to my mind after carefully (I think) reading every post here, especially those of the admitted motor officers.

 

First, I admit that I own a 21 year-old Harley FXRT and a 4 year-old R1100RT. I like the Harley best for reasons that are sufficient to me, and will sell the BMW soon.

 

I want to address several questions to the motor officers (past and present) first. Those who don't ride with a badge may say what you wish, but frankly I'm not interested in your thoughts on these questions.

• 
  
• How often is top speed a factor in "running someone down" as it was put in one post?
  
• What is enough top speed? 90? 110? 150?
  
• Does your department's pursuit policy allow top speed and handling to even be important factors? Or is it so limiting that a 1970 450 Honda could do the job?
  
• From a cop's point of view, what technology on the BMW is superior to that on the Harley?
  
• If your position is that one bike is superior to the other (as opposed to you just like one better) please say why - specifically. Before you answer please note for us the extent of your information base. That is, that you have ridden, or at least seen, both in action for enough time to form a valid opinion. I'll admit right up front that if you haven't done both bikes, to me you're not qualified to hold an opinion worth paying attention to, and it doesn't matter if you are an instructor or not.
  

 

Now to general discussion.

 

IMHO, BMW's alleged superiority in technology just doesn't exist except with respect to brakes. I don't know of a single technological issue where BMW does things better than HD. As to the brakes, Harley is getting very, very close in braking performance, especially considering the weight penalty they carry. Their ABS? Yeah, it's large package now. They're still working on itand when they're done I'll bet it won't suffer the teething problems BMW has with its linked brakes. As a current package BMW brakes are better.

 

When I see someone talk about Harleys shedding parts I know that he's probably talking out his a$$ about bikes he's never been around. OR - that have been poorly maintained. On this board there have been reports of people losing stuff, from side covers to taillights. And loose front fenders. No, folks, I'd stack Harley's build quality up against BMW's and bet on Harley every time nowadays.

 

BMW finally whipped the surging issue. Harley never had it - their FI system was good from day one.

 

I never heard of a Harley melting its plastic because it was allowed to idle at startup.

 

None of the above is to say that Harleys are better - but neither are they worse.

 

David, I'm surprised to see you fall into the logical trap of saying that BMWs must be better because most officers here say so. If they didn't prefer BMWs they probably wouldn't be here. And officers who prefer and ride only Harleys probably wouldn't be here, either.

 

OK, David, still your turn. So - why do you think Harleys get sold to departments for a buck? Harley doesn't need the image advertising, and at a buck apiece they aren't making much money. I'll bet there's a good business argument for it, 'cause if there's one thing HDI isn't, it's stupid.

 

FWIW, and I stand ready to be corrected by knowledgable officers, the reason departments use Harleys is that they do the job well enough, and offer the best choice from an economic standpoint. Sure, a motor guy might like to have the fastest, best handling, superperforming bike available, but the job just doesn't call for it in most roles.

 

Pilgrim

[David]

David, I'm surprised to see you fall into the logical trap of saying that BMWs must be better because most officers here say so. If they didn't prefer BMWs they probably wouldn't be here. And officers who prefer and ride only Harleys probably wouldn't be here, either.

 

If my falling into a logic trap surprises you, then you probably don't know me as well as you think.

 

My point was that Eric was implying that only officers could comment, ignoring the fact that the officers who had commented favored BMWs. And of course this is a BMW board--all those riding Harleys can't get to a discussion board because they are broken down or still shaking too badly to type.

 

JUST KIDDING!

 

I don't much care, really. I've often looked longingly at a R/K myself and I'm sure I'll get one some day.

 

OK, David, still your turn. So - why do you think Harleys get sold to departments for a buck? Harley doesn't need the image advertising, and at a buck apiece they aren't making much money. I'll bet there's a good business argument for it, 'cause if there's one thing HDI isn't, it's stupid.

 

Why? It's high profile product placement and has nothing to do with the product's merits, either way.

[allikanbe]

I'll just tag this comment here. Some of the local LEOs have BMWs and some have HDs. There is one BMW dealer 30 miles from here (Yorktown, VA) and there are 3 HD dealers. The BMW dealer is closed on Sun and Mon. The HD dealer is closed Sunday. There is still only one BMW dealer 100 miles from here. There are 9 or 10 HD dealers within 100 miles of here.

[motorman587]

I will answer you questions as best I as I can.

 

Top speed. It is not the top speed that is important than a vehicle that can accelrate to about 80-90 mph quickly. Example, speed limit 45mph clock a vehicle at 60mph. I must at least go 20 to 30 mph over the limit to catch that person. I need a motor stable at that speed, which the BMW is and the Harley is not. The only time top speed was a facter was in a presidental motorcade and we numours times pasted Harley's to get to our next post.

 

 

Again top speed not important.

 

We have a no pursuit policy only to catch up to violators. If you know that violator is attempting to get away, speeds ups, starts to run lights etc........ You must stop.

 

 

BMW vs. Harley

Electric windshield

clock

toolkit

centerstand

single sided siwg arm

6000 miles service

seat adjustmetn

handlever adjustment

hydrlic clutch

3 years unlimited mileage warranty

fuel oil temp.

emergency lights that come from the dealer and warrentied by same.

Heat not burning the legs.

ABS brakes

STable at speed.

 

 

I would like to add also that when traffic stop is done on a Harley it must be shut off, no emergency lights or the most important the headlight.

 

On the BMW you shine the headlight into the driver side rearview mirror for concealment. You can keep the BMW running with emergency lights running and not worry about it over heating. And this in Florida.

[motorman587]

Sorry about the type Os, hurry to pick up the twins.

[upflying]

• 
  
• How often is top speed a factor in "running someone down" as it was put in one post?
  
• What is enough top speed? 90? 110? 150?
  
• Does your department's pursuit policy allow top speed and handling to even be important factors? Or is it so limiting that a 1970 450 Honda could do the job?
  
• From a cop's point of view, what technology on the BMW is superior to that on the Harley?
  
• If your position is that one bike is superior to the other (as opposed to you just like one better) please say why - specifically.
  

 

Qualifications: 29 year LEO, 9 years on motors. Rode KZ1000P, HD FXRTP, FLHP, FLHPi and two demo rides on 2004 RT-P.

Top speed beyond 100 mph is seldom a factor in urban traffic enforcement. Acceleration is important and necesasary to catch speed violators in reasonable time and distance. Instant engine cranking is critical if you expect to catch the violator at moderate chase speeds and reduce the risk to yourself. The Kawasaki fired instantly and accelerated very fast. The FXR went through two or three agonizingly slow engine revolutions before firing. The additonal cranking time resulted in your "prey" gaining distance on you before you could give chase. This resulted in additonal risk for the officer. Because of this, I often let the EVO FXR engine idle with no ill effect when working speed enforcement with my "pole" in the water. The FLHP cranked and started quickly. Speed enforcement is much like fishing. Once you have a motorist on the "hook", you "reel" him in by chasing after it.

As for the FLHP's, think of a cruiser style bike. Laid back, relaxed and mellow. It has an air seat and it is low to the ground. More show, less go. After 80 mph, the Twin Cam 88 inch motor was all done accelerating. Harley's need to be "kitted" to run properly. Bean counters at city hall refused to modify the bikes with kits. Best urban city enforcement bike was the Kawasaki but it was crude and outdated. Kawasaki missed the boat and should have made the Concours into a police bike.

I think you are mixing "pursuit policy" with chasing traffic violators. A "pursuit" is when someone refuses to pull over and stop. A pursuit is failing to yield and stop to lights and siren from the emergency vehicle. There are lots of restrictions here and it varies between departments and states. No time to go into it here. Chasing after a violator is always permitted and almost always results in the violator complying and stopping. I have at times pegged the 120 mph speedomter when chasing a speeder who does eventually pull over. Mind you the FLHPi would only do 120 mph downhill and with a tailwind. It was 100 mph tops on level ground and no wind.

The Harley's and Kawasaki had an awful high speed wobble if you took high speed sweeping turns at more than 80 mph. I felt the wobble was from the swingarm design which had the rigidity of a noodle.

The Harley and Kawasaki were also equipped with floorboards, great is you want to keep your Dehner's looking nice. But all of the outside edges of my floorboards were were worn away to a fine knife-edge from constant scraping at moderate lean angles.

The FXR also suffered from a very small battery design. You would have 15 minutes of engine off emergency light use from it. If the engine did not fire, you would quickly kill the battery. The FLH's had bigger batteries and were less likely to die. Newer LED technolgy helped lessen battery drain.

The Harley's looked and sounded good and many citizens gave thumbs up for buying American. I have bad hearing from years of abuse from modified HD exhaust and constant police radio chatter in my helmet headset.

The Harley's and Kawasaki had quiet "knife through butter" shifting qualities and the oil bath clutches on the bikes were bulletproof during low speed cone pattern training. Brakes were fine in normal use but the catch was trying to train motor officers not to lock up the tires during panic braking. Lock your front and you go down.

Kawasaki re-sale was terrible. The HD sold for what the were purchased for at a city auction.

Many motor officers own personal bikes and the majority owned Harley. They had tantrums and hissy-fits if anyone (like myself) even suggesting trying a BMW. Several refused to ride a BMW when A&S brought a demo down for us to ride. I think much of this is based on a person's "machismo" and the thought of riding a BMW to them is selling the "soul" of your manhood.

The Kawasaki vibrated at high RPM and rubber mounted Harley only vibrated at idle. This made the rear view mirror and "checking your six" useless while stopped at a light. I often revved my engine so I could see through the mirrors. No oil leaks on the Harleys but I did blow a base gasket on the rear jug of the FXR while chasing someone at over 100 mph.

Except for the brief demo I had, I never rode a RT-P for enforcement riding. The braking and handling are far ahead of the technology offered by HD. No scraping at lean angles that would have put the Harley down in a shower of sparks. The BMW has a certain "suspension compliance" feel that makes the telescopic forks on the HD feel like a pogo stick in comparison. BMW is a "sport touring" bike and not a "cruiser" like the one offered by brand HD. So comparing the BMW to HD may not be fair since the HD is focused more towards a different market.

Acceleration on my RT-P is faster and again that is because the Harley had 70 hp and BMW has 90. The dual batteries are a Godsend for enforcmente riding and the Tupperware covering the bike gives great all-weather riding comfort.

Service seems more intensive and more expensive on the BMW. No valve adjustments or TB synchs on the HD. Just give it fluid changes every 3000 miles.

Low speed riding on the Kawasaki and Harley was easier with the wet clutch and lower first gear ratios. Full lock low speed turns were easiy to do as you feathered the clutch and throttle to keep the bikes from falling.

The BMW seems to have a bit higher center of gravity. That combined with a dry clutch that doesn't like abuse and a tall first gear ratio makes low speed full lock turns more challenging.

Which do I like? The HD/Kawasaki was a better city bike, the BMW is a better highway bike. My goal is to own both someday and have the best of both worlds.

I tend to be a bit of a rebel, curmudgeon and an eccentric. I lean towards being different rather than choosing what is popular with the majority. IMO the BMW has that quality of being just being a bit out of the ordinary and mainstream of motorcycling. I (or we) know BMW is good and it doesn't have to go around "shouting" (as in loud exhaust) to others that it is good. I smugly ride something that I know is good and that is the appeal of BMW to me.

[Lawman]

Thanks Bob,

 

I too like em both...I just bought a new R1200RT today and have a Police ABS Electra Glide coming in before the end of the month...Life is good

[OldMotor]

WOW!! I didn't think there would be this much response.

 

First off I do not think that a Harley is unsafe, everyone should ride within their abilities as well as their bikes abilitites. But I do question the ABS system. There is also concerns about Harley passing our performance test and apparently BMW has called them on not having a center stand which is required. What will happen now is Harley has 30 days from the time they won the bid (5th or 6th of Dec. Some time with that 30 day period they must present a bike for testing. If anything is found not to meet specifications Harley then has 30 days to fix the problem and re-submit it for final testing. If they cannot fix the problem then the bid goes to who ever was in 2nd. And yes Harley sued a few years back on the ABS issue. Harley stated that ABS brakes have not been proven to be safer.The judge dismissed the suit basically saying that the CHP can pick what they want on a bike that they want to buy.

 

Not real sure on the prices yet, not on the e-mail I read, but Harley had made it clear that they would put in a very low bid. I do not know if there is a buy back program or not on this deal. And all the RTP's that we turn in from now on will be sold at the CHP academy. Since the contract with BMW was voided a while back all of the bikes have been sold there. By the time Harley starts delivering bikes to the academy it is projected that the CHP will have approximately 150-180 RTP's ready to turn in that are either over 3 years old or over 60,000. I hear some bikes are in the 80,000 range and still going strong.

 

Harley made a very strong effort to get the contract. They were out at the CHP academy on a regular basis with two Roadkings which were on loan. They wanted a lot of feedback and any problems they went to work on right away. They were very motivated to get the contract since they have lost a lot of agencies on the west coast.

 

Motorman, a liquid cooled engine is not part of our specs. The main change is our specs. after we went to BMW was the requirement for ABS brakes. That's when Harley sued the CHP. So, not BMW is bringing up the center stand issue. I think we will see them fighting it out for the next two months.

 

I also think that our Governor had a hand in Harley getting the deal. Rumor has it that the Governor of Wisconsin talked with him about us going back to Harley. Who knows if that is true, but it is the rumor going around.

 

Bottom line for me is they do not ask my opinion on which bike to buy. But I do have the option of going back into a car if I want to and giving up the bike. I don't think that will happen unless we get Vespa's.

 

And yes sometimes I do miss the Kawi's. That was one tough bike. Drop it for what ever reason then just pick it up and ride away. It was just kind of ugly!

[SWB]

And all the RTP's that we turn in from now on will be sold at the CHP academy. Since the contract with BMW was voided a while back all of the bikes have been sold there.

 

I didn't know the BMW contract was voided by CA. I thought that BMW owned the bikes, that the state leased them from BMW, and that the "turn-in" program (3 year/60K miles, whichever comes first) was to BMW exclusively. Does the State of CA now own the Beemers? Are they still selling them via A&S BMW, or are they selling them at a government auction? Can you provide any info regarding "how and where" to buy one from the academy?

 

I had been thinking about upgrading my 2001 RTP (54K) to a 2004, when and if a lower mileage one came along. This may "force" me to seriously consider a new 2005 RT (at least, that'll be the story I tell the wife).

[toddshog]

Well, after my last post I was going to log off till next year but this thread caught my attention. I guess I will have to pick up all the parts the fell off my bike later as I have some typing to do now. I am not a motor officer so you can take this post with a grain of salt. I do have a good friend that is (the town next to yours P-Phil) whose officers requested Harleys and they were so happy he called 3 states away the day the came in to brag about them. As for parts falling off of Harleys and 3 engines blowing as one gentleman stated, you may want to add oil to the bikes and fire your service department, this just doesn't happen. I have quite a few friends who ride HD and not one of them have had ANY problems with their bikes. All popular bikes built today HD, BMW, Honda, etc. are very reliable, each capable of going 100,000+ miles. Another post that I read that had me cracking up was a HD not being able to keep up with a 'busa. Hmmmm, I would love to see any other brand of bike keep up with one, hell, I would like to see a helo keep up with one. High speed chases are rare (unless you live in so. cal.) so I would think that would not be an option when picking a bike. I do know for a fact that my heritage has no problem cruising at speed. This year on a trip with my dad on his RT we cruised at 75-80 for 100's of miles then on a trip with my wife, riding 2-up later in the year from Portland to Calgary and back, we had 7-800 miles at 85+. I do not hesitate doing 80+ through sweepers but know the bikes limits and when the boards are about to scrape. I have never had wobbles pushing corners. Will a RT or ST push through the tighter corners faster? you bet they will. Can a HD keep up with a cager through corners, yup even with boards. Will the RT or ST accelerate faster, yup. But the HD with a 103 will accelerate as fast as any cager will.

How about ABS or HD being unsafe because of no or new ABS? All I can say to this is how many of you rode pre-ABS and how many locked up and put their bike down because of it? If you can't brake a bike without ABS then sell it and buy a car. I will be the first to admit as well that the HD sucks at altitude. I don't remember what state we were in but it took me about 5 miles to pass a car doing 70.......I am sure pop and his friend got a chuckle over that.

I am sure you are all aware (although some might not admit) that HD does not need to improve their image so I doubt that gaining immage is a factor for Harley needing to sell a bike for a buck.

One posters comment was "I don't know what they paid for the bike but I am sure it was too much." Does this really matter? What matters is how much it costs to ride these bikes through their useful lives. If a RT costs 14k, is ridden for 3 years and sold for 7k and a HD is purchased for 19k, ridden the same amount of time and sold for 18k would the HD not be a better buy?

I would also imagine that dealers/service departments would be a factor when chosing a brand. As stated before, you would be hard pressed to not find a dealer within 100 miles of any city in the US. This is BMW's downfall, try to find more than 2 in some states. Some of you have a full days ride to have their bikes serviced, this just doesn't make sense.

 

Bottom line is all of today's bikes are good, if you ride Yamaha, Honda, BMW or HD you are still in a group called "motorcycle enthusiast." It really doesn't matter what I ride, what you ride or what CHP rides as long as you, me or they are happy with the bikes. What does matter, in fact pisses me off is when someone thinks their ride is better than anyone else. It is personal preference, we should support each other because we love to ride, not condemn each other because what we ride. Same goes for laws, etc that effect our sport. Just because you might think everyone should wear a helmet (I hate them), I beg you to not support helmet laws and in return I promise I won't support putting governors on bikes to keep them from exceeding 70MPH. We need to stick together as a group and support each other. From the words of a great mentor and someone I aspire to "can't we all just get along?"

Now stop your bickering and buy a Harley!

[Spear]

The one important statistic that you non-Harley people overlook is the fact that 95% of all Harley Davidsons ever made are still on the road. (The other 5% eventually made it home!)

[James Clark]

The main change is our specs. after we went to BMW was the requirement for ABS brakes. That's when Harley sued the CHP. So, not BMW is bringing up the center stand issue. I think we will see them fighting it out for the next two months.

 

 

Is it really wise to push this issue?

[JerryMather]

Another post that I read that had me cracking up was a HD not being able to keep up with a 'busa. Hmmmm, I would love to see any other brand of bike keep up with one, hell, I would like to see a helo keep up with one. High speed chases are rare (unless you live in so. cal.) so I would think that would not be an option when picking a bike. I do know for a fact that my heritage has no problem cruising at speed.

I'm glad I made you smile with that one.

 

People need to understand that these bikes are going to be used by the Calif. HIGHWAY Patrol not the local Police Depts throughout the State where speeds are usually much lower.

For those that don't drive around here, mid-day traffic on the So. Ca. Highways is running at speeds of 80 MPH regularly and speeders are going some times much faster than that.

Knowing this, I would think that the CHP would want a bike that can pursue and over take a violator easily into triple digit speeds safely.

 

Personally I'm looking forward to having them patrol our Mt. Highways throughout the state with their brand new shinny Harleys and I hope they perform better than their expectations.

[OldMotor]

Scott, before the contract was voided BMW would buy the bikes back at 60,000 miles or 3 years, whatever came first. Since the contract was voided we did not have any new bikes to buy so we have just kept riding them knowing that the academy would end up selling them later. The e-mail I read said Harley should start delivery bikes to us for patrol in mid April (seems a long time to me). We will have a lot of bikes over mileage/years by then. Depending on how many we initially we get will determine how many are turned it at once. All these bikes wll be sold via CHP academy in West Sacramento. I would think that the first bikes turned in will be the oldest bikes and highest mileage ones. Come spring the academy should have a flood of bikes. They used to sell the Harleys and Kawis and were glad they got out of the business.

 

I'm riding an 04 and should turn it in about a year from now. I just might try and buy it back. The 04 is a pretty good bike, but that 1200 has me thinking.

 

James, you are right about adding the center stand. I think BMW spoke up too soon on that issue. The question is not can they add the center stand. The question is: When they add the center stand what will be the ground clearance? I'm sure there is a spec. for that. I might ask around this week and see if that is even an issue.

 

If anyone is interested on the turned in bikes, let me know and I can post it when they start rolling in.

[Motors]

Don't know what you are smoking, but you better quit! The HD Electra Glide Police will in no way do 150mph all day. Heck, my issued police motor will not even reach 100mph on a good day with a tail wind-downhill.

The HD is not the right tool for the freeway! People will walk away from them.

 

Motors

[Motors]

This is he info I was told:

CHP lowest bid: 3 HD Dealers

Next: Honda ST1300P

Last Place at $19,000 a copy-BMW!

 

BTW, I'm sure HD will provide the EG's with the u shaped centerstand.

 

Motors

[DaveC]

My initial reaction to this news is to feel sorry for the CHP officers. The bean counters have won this round for sure.

 

My next thought is to tease the CHP officers by borrowing an retired RT-P bike and finding an officer driving a new Harley bike on the freeway. I would cruise by them going 90 MPH, wave, and then accelerate as they try to catch me. As they realize the chase is hopeless, they would call for backup from an officer on a RT-P or in a car.

Unfortunately I would be the lose in the end when the backup officer in a car catches and arrests me. Just for a few minutes, it would be worth it. ha ha

[OldMotor]

I could find out later, but do you know what the winning bid was? We will find out within the month if Harley passes the performance test. I'm also pretty sure the center stand will not be a problem.

[Pilgrim]

I want to thank the motor officers who responded, especially Upflying, whose response was as comprehensive and well-thought out as anything I've seen here.

 

What appears to have shown up here, clearly stated in at least one case, is that the dichotomy between the two bikes means one (the BMW) is clearly the best suited to highway work, where speed and acceleration matter, at least to some departments. I can understand and appreciate that need based on my Border Patrol experience, back when we were allowed to perform chases. If Harley supplies its "P" models with the 103" engine that factor may become less strongly biased in favor of BMW. Depending on who you listen to, that is a 100hp engine, or maybe just 90, but in either case better than the stock 70, more or less.

 

The other (Harley)is arguably a better city bike - or at least as good.

 

I remember comments from motor officers of my acquaintance years ago about the battery capacity on their FXRPs, that it was too small. Some departments had a secondary battery added, as BMW does now, I think. And yeah, they start slow. The ECU is designed to let the engine turn over three times to build flywheel momentum before the spark fires the first time.

 

The early iterations of the Harley Twin Cam engine had overheating problems at slow speed on hot days. They were, for the first time, using oil squirts to the piston crown as a cooling medium, but didn't add an oil cooler due to image issues. They finally offered an auxiliary fan that blew on the oil tank, which took care of much of the problem, albeit inelegantly. At least BMW hides their aux fan.

 

New Harleys, when they begin to overheat, deal with it by first dropping the idle to 800rpm. If that doesn't work the ECU next richens the fuel mixture to add cooling fuel. And as a last resort, it interrupts the fuel pulses to allow just air to pass through the cylinder. This scares the hell out of guys who don't understand because the idle gets lumpy and they think they've ruined something critical.

 

I've never heard much complaint about straight-line stability on a Harley with proper tires, but the FL models are known to "nod their heads" in a sweeping curve at speed. Even my FXRT could be provoked to it. Most often, IMHO, the cause of any instability is improper alignment of the wheels, and I have found even Harley-trained mechanics who just don't understand what they're doing in that respect. The adjustment takes place in two planes and either one can hurt handling.

 

There is a solution to the instability the bikes naturally display in a curve, even when properly adjusted. I found it right here on this board: Bite the mirrors - it works. Far more than you would expect on such a barge, the bikes are sensitive to body position, especially in a curve.

 

There's almost nothing you can do to work around the weave caused by tires that have developed a flat spot in the center - but BMWs suffer from that affliction, too.

 

Overall, it looks like pretty much of a wash to me, with maybe a slight edge to the BMW.

 

But then, I don't ride motors for a living, so it doesn't matter what I think.

[dyvking]

did not see any Harley police bike. Kinda ironic.

It was there, ABS and all.

[motorman587]

I respectfully disagree that the Harley is argualby a better city bike. I could get 10 motor officers to agrue you on that one.

[James Clark]

James, you are right about adding the center stand. I think BMW spoke up too soon on that issue. The question is not can they add the center stand. The question is: When they add the center stand what will be the ground clearance? I'm sure there is a spec. for that. I might ask around this week and see if that is even an issue.

 

What is it about their experience with boxers that caused the CHP to require centerstands? I can think of two possible reasons, but I can't imagine BMWNA admitting to either of them.

 

 

[motorman587]

Ya, really, I could see adding liquid cooled motors before center stands.

[upflying]

In the mid-90's,CHP rode a combination of KZ1000P and HD FXRTP before the introduction of the CHP spec BMW RT-P in 1998. The FXR didn't have a center stand.

I think you could be right, CHP wrote the need for a center stand into the specs to exclude HD.

[motorman587]

Wouldn't be easy to state liquid cooled? Then center stand?

[baggerchris]

The best thing here in MY humble opinion, is that if the above is really true, and Harley is going to the 103 inch motor in the Police bikes, then the chances of them bringing out the 103 inch motor in their regular bikes has taken a turn for the better, which will please the rank and file Harley rider no end! The very thought of the 103 incher combined with a 6 speed makes me start to salivate.

[mistercindy]

We have a no pursuit policy only to catch up to violators. If you know that violator is attempting to get away, speeds ups, starts to run lights etc........ You must stop.

Kind of a threadjack, but could you explain what this means? Are you allowed to catch up to violators? Are you allowed to pursue?

 

Sorry about the query, but I'm interested as I'm an assistant DA and we represent the County Sheriff's Department (ie., when they're sued after accidents during high speed chases or when running lights and sirens, etc...).

 

BTW, our sheriff's department bikes are Kawasakis and have been for a long time.

[RFW]

The very thought of the 103 incher combined with a 6 speed makes me start to salivate.

Nothing about a Harley makes ME want to salivate. What next after a 103ci motor? The Cummins Turbodiesel version?

 

Bob.

[upflying]

We have a no pursuit policy only to catch up to violators. If you know that violator is attempting to get away, speeds ups, starts to run lights etc........ You must stop.

Kind of a threadjack, but could you explain what this means? Are you allowed to catch up to violators? Are you allowed to pursue?

 

Sorry about the query, but I'm interested as I'm an assistant DA and we represent the County Sheriff's Department (ie., when they're sued after accidents during high speed chases or when running lights and sirens, etc...).

 

BTW, our sheriff's department bikes are Kawasakis and have been for a long time.

 

Not sure where you are from but in Calif, this is the misdemeanor version of it.

2800.1. (a) Any person who, while operating a motor vehicle and with the intent to evade, willfully flees or otherwise attempts to elude a pursuing peace officer's motor vehicle, is guilty of a misdemeanor if all of the following conditions exist:

 

(1) The peace officer's motor vehicle is exhibiting at least one lighted red lamp visible from the front and the person either sees or reasonably should have seen the lamp.

 

(2) The peace officer's motor vehicle is sounding a siren as may be reasonably necessary.

 

(3) The peace officer's motor vehicle is distinctively marked.

 

(4) The peace officer's motor vehicle is operated by a peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 of the Penal Code, and that peace officer is wearing a distinctive uniform.

 

(b) Any person who, while operating a motor vehicle and with the intent to evade, willfully flees or otherwise attempts to elude a pursuing peace officer's bicycle, is guilty of a misdemeanor if the following conditions exist:

 

(1) The peace officer's bicycle is distinctively marked.

 

(2) The peace officer's bicycle is operated by a peace officer, as defined in paragraph (4) of subdivision (a), and that peace officer is wearing a distinctive uniform.

 

(3) The peace officer gives a verbal command to stop.

 

(4) The peace officer sounds a horn that produces a sound of at least 115 decibels.

 

(5) The peace officer gives a hand signal commanding the person to stop.

 

(6) The person is aware or reasonably should have been aware of the verbal command, horn, and hand signal, but refuses to comply with the command to stop.

 

Amended Ch. 504, Stats. 1988. Effective August 22, 1988.

Amended Sec. 1, Ch. 68, Stats. 1995. Effective January 1, 1996.

Obviously if you cause injury or death while evading a police officer it becomes a felony. (2800.2/2800.3 CVC)

Pursuits of vehicles who fail to stop is getting very restrictive. Many LEO agencies are writing "no pursuit" policies if the traffic violator fails to pull over. This is due to high profile civil litigation against law enforcement agencies when innocent people are injured or killed while a traffic violator is fleeing from the police. It also gives LEO agencies the authority to punish the officer if he/she fails to comply with the pursuit policy.

Obviously you should not pursue a vehicle going 100 mph through a school zone at 8 o'clock in the morning. On the other hand, the same circumstances may be permitted by policy at three in the morning.

The policies are written to take into consideration weather, traffic, vehicle condition, type of violation or crime involved, time of day and whether the occupants are known.

For example, earlier this year I tried to pull over a motorcycle at two in the morning because it did not have a license plate. The motrcyele did not stop for my emergency lights and siren and took off at high speed.I had to terminate the pursuit of the motorcycle because not having a license plate is a "mechanical violation" and pursuit of such violators was forbidden by the agency I worked for.

Obviously the motorcycle was probably stolen but that assumption is not sufficient to continue the pursuit.

[Jimbo RT]

Does anyone know, will a CHP officer be able to ride a different model, other than the Harley if he obtains a RTP of his own? I've heard that some officers can have their own choice of side arm if they qualify with it. Is there a simalar situation with motorcycles? (apologies if this has been answered above.)

[OldMotor]

You can only ride a different bike until you run yours out. Then you get whatever won the bid. No options. I have an 04 with 28,000 miles on it. When I hit 60,000 miles I will (apparently) get a Harley. As far as the duty weapon goes we all carry the same 40 cal. Smith/Wesson. Years ago (pre-1991) we carried a 38 cal. Smith/Wesson and if you bought your own 357 you could qualify and carry it.

[Jimbo RT]

Thanks for the informative reply, and thanks for your service to our community.

[lithoman]

The very thought of the 103 incher combined with a 6 speed makes me start to salivate.

Nothing about a Harley makes ME want to salivate. What next after a 103ci motor? The Cummins Turbodiesel version?

 

 

 

Bob.

 

now thats funny

[mistercindy]

Interesting, upflying. Thanks for the response.

 

 

 

 

We have a no pursuit policy only to catch up to violators. If you know that violator is attempting to get away, speeds ups, starts to run lights etc........ You must stop.

Kind of a threadjack, but could you explain what this means? Are you allowed to catch up to violators? Are you allowed to pursue?

 

Sorry about the query, but I'm interested as I'm an assistant DA and we represent the County Sheriff's Department (ie., when they're sued after accidents during high speed chases or when running lights and sirens, etc...).

 

Not sure where you are from...

Dallas County, Texas.