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Harley wins C.H.P. bid.


OldMotor

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....Was my 1150RT a lemon? I had it on US50 in Nevada. It wasn't really hot, say 70F. Bags had ~1wks full of stuff, probably similar load to a RT-P's radio and the like.

 

WOT, never hit over 108 on the GPS...l

 

Simple answer: Yes!

If you top out at 108 GPS, you've got a poorly performing speciman!

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I could either hit redline in 5th, or bog in 6th.
Actually, the RT-P trannies have a different sixth gear that lies somewhere between the civilian 5th and 6th gears. I have managed 126 (GPS), but not on level ground (of course on a closed track by a professional rider--do not attempt smirk.gif ) The shorter RT-P 6th gear gets up higher than our 5th gear without red-lining but it doesn't bog down like our 6th gears do. It's one of the (albeit minor) gripes I have with the 6th on my civilian 2003: it's too damn tall! The sweet spot for the motor has me flying down the road at 80mph or the bike is NOT happy and I'm nowhere near the power band. frown.gif

 

When Maynard is ready for a new one, I'm going to swap it out for the police model! thumbsup.gif

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If you top out at 108 GPS, you've got a poorly performing speciman!

 

HAD. The key word smile.gif

 

Just curious, what is the top speed? Specs say 125ish. But I'm assuming that's unloaded, no bags, windscreen down, rider in a tuck. Which puts my touring-spec speed not too far off.

 

It's been awhile, but I don't remember top end being that bike's strength. My friend on his Triumph would pull up next to me, the RT at WOT, we would exchange glances, and he would fly away leaving me with nothing but his exhaust note.

 

Closed course, don't do at home, etc etc etc...

 

Changing the 6th gear does make sense, I wonder how much better that is...

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Bob,

I also heard about the same thing from a friend with contacts at CHP. Is there any truth to the rumour about the HD ABS system being a 'modified' automobile system?

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FWIW...top speed on my 2001 R1100RT-P was indicated 120 mph.

Indicated...on the "calibrated" speedometer that's part of the RT-P package, w/ the CHP speced tires on it.

 

Flat/straight/slightly downhill, no tailwind, city bags (close to empty), full tuck, lights/siren/radio stuff not present.

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Bob,

I also heard about the same thing from a friend with contacts at CHP. Is there any truth to the rumour about the HD ABS system being a 'modified' automobile system?

Yes it is, it looks like the same Kelsey-Hayes ABS pump that is under the hood of my 1995 Chevy Silverado pickup truck.

It is a Mickey-Mouse add on system that takes up half the room in the right saddle bag.

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If you top out at 108 GPS, you've got a poorly performing speciman!

 

HAD. The key word

 

Just curious, what is the top speed? Specs say 125ish.

 

Top speed for my R1100-RT is between 120 & 130 MPH GPS fully loaded including trunk, but with standard windshield in lowest position. (I have seen 132 MPH GPS on a slight down hill... Arizona Al passed me on his K-RS like I was parked! 5th gear right on the edge of redline.)

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motorman587
Bob,

I also heard about the same thing from a friend with contacts at CHP. Is there any truth to the rumour about the HD ABS system being a 'modified' automobile system?

Yes it is, it looks like the same Kelsey-Hayes ABS pump that is under the hood of my 1995 Chevy Silverado pickup truck.

It is a Mickey-Mouse add on system that takes up half the room in the right saddle bag.

 

Harley reps claim it is made for the bike, but if you look at it you see the ports for the tires of a car. Made by Nissin.

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James Clark

 

Harley reps claim it is made for the bike, but if you look at it you see the ports for the tires of a car. Made by Nissin.

 

Or it's designed to accommodate linked brakes that run two brake lines to each caliper.

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To add more fuel to the fire, I have reliable information that a LEO went down and injured himself while doing quaterly training on a 2005 Harley police Road King equipped with ABS.

While he was doing the "40 decel", he grabbed the brakes and the front wheel locked up...the ABS failed to activate.

 

I was told that the same thing happened here in Hawaii and the HD failed the ABS braking test. I don't know about the injury part. Not counting that the ABS pump takes room in one of the side bags. The Department is waiting for six more new units and they are very happy with the BMWs. He said moving back to HD will be a big mistake.

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Harley reps claim it is made for the bike, but if you look at it you see the ports for the tires of a car. Made by Nissin.

 

Or it's designed to accommodate linked brakes that run two brake lines to each caliper.

I thought I heard the other two ports are blanked, IIRC, but if it came from a Honda it could've merely been modified to be pressed into service in a single line per caliper system. The BMW brakes are linked in the plumbing at the ABS servo pump and only one line feeds each wheel circuit (with the front line branching off to both sides as on a regular bike). This is different from the Honda system that has dual lines I believe (for safety/redundancy?) controlling only some of the pistons on each caliper.

 

I just want to see our Motors get the best, safest bike out there to protect them to the greatest extent possible. It is a dangerous enough job as it is and I would HATE to see anyone hurt or worse on a bike that was purchased based on anything other than performance and officer safety. If just one career gets cut short by this (or God forbid, a worse outcome), it'd be a unpardonable sin. My greatest fear is that someone will have to be sacrificed first before the decision makers would admit to an error in judgement. Not that I'm convinced that Harley can not meet the standard, I truly hope they can/will, I just don't want any of our bravest to be sacrificed for HD's learning curve. LEO's ask a lot more of their rides on a regular basis than we do, with a failure of a part or a design flaw having potentially much more dire consequences. frown.gif

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motorman587

No, because when you look at it you see the LF LR RF RR, which is only on cars. Harley does not have linked brakes.

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Is the fact that it's thought to be a car based hardware really bad? Or is it just that it's what Harley picked that makes it horrid? Nissin isn't a shadetree company. They do ABS for Honda and Kaw bikes, as well as Honda cars. The press on the Honda VFR and ST ABS seems pretty positive too.

 

The low volumes for bikes probably makes reusing a 4-channel ABS controller from an existing vehicle a cost effective solution. If the specs are a good match and the calibration is done well it seems like a good solution.

 

Oh, and Honda's linked ABS is different than the BMW's. It uses more hydraulic circuits to obtain it's result where the BMW manages it within the controller itself.

 

Honda has two hoses leading to each caliper, one controlling 4-pistons the other two. So a 3 (two front, one rear) or 4 (two front two rear) channel ABS controller would be needed. "THE WORLD'S MOST COMPLEX BRAKES: Three circuits, three master cylinders, nine pistons and six bleed nipples."

 

From: http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=889&fArticleId=2597781

 

As far as safety. I do to want the safest option. But the H-D ABS issue sounds an awful lot like some of the reported servo issues. One or two people had a problem that sounds hard to believe. The brakes failed. No one can recreate.

 

Except the only difference I can see is H-D found a problem and released a recall. On the BMW there was no problem... Not saying that there was a problem. But honestly, *I* feel safer working with people who admit their mistakes and fix them, rather than those who claim perfection.

 

First hand account (May 2005):

http://www.motorcops.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=75&sid=c14bd0ea0d692445001dbd039b3b8181

 

Recall (June 2005):

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/proble...rintVersion=YES

 

From what I've read H-D is reacting to the issues, getting them sorted. Not enough HP, they work to find solutions no different than the police spec cruisers of old ("It's got a cop motor, cop shocks...."). They are working with the departments, being very supportive of the trade.

 

This is bad?

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motorman587

No do not think it is bad, just wonder how much testing they did before they mounted on the HD. It looks like they just slapped it on a called "made for a motorcycle", but it takes up 1/2 one saddle bag. Like it was a hurry up and mount this ABS unit. I pretty sure their next ABS unit will be mounted on the motorcycle some where besides the saddle bag. I can not remember but I heard that HD order for police 60+% want ABS.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I would like to see HArley get the contract IF they have the best and safest bike. But that newspaper article indicates they got the contract without having a final entry in the process? Nobody wins when the process isn't fair and objective, I hope this is not the case...

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"Green Valley/Santa Cruz manager Dustin Thuringer said that the prototypes for the final production model the CHP will use are now being tested. The CHP bike will have a larger engine, special electronics, emergency lighting, radar and other special features that set it apart from other Harley-Davidson street motorcycles.

 

Once the prototype testing is finished and approved, the Milwaukee, Wis., Harley-Davidson plant will begin producing the bikes in quantity. Thuringer said that a special processing facility will be set up in Santa Cruz County to receive the “basic motorcycle” and then add on the special electronic components. Once the bikes are finished, they’ll be turned over to CHP field offices throughout the state."

 

Ok, so Harley won the bid without submitting a finished product? They're still at the prototype stage? CHP motor officers are going to be HD's guinea pigs? HD's going to "one-off" each bike, by rebuilding stock bikes as CHP specials in California??

 

Wow, the State of CA must want Harley's badly. It looks like a political decision was made, which might speak to the issue of why BMW did no summersaults to get the business. If you know the deck is stacked against you, you either pursue other business, or in the case of government contracts, end up in court for 5 years after the award.

 

This doesn't bother me that much anymore. So an American company gets to sell 400 bikes in a cooked procurement. In a couple of years, HD will be charging the CHP $25K or $30K per bike anyway. While I think the CHP officers ride a better, safer bike when they ride a BMW, let their union complain. They have better representation and protection than the average citizen has.

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motorman587

BMW can't even get a quote to our department for the new R1200RTP and they lost a sale of "two" because of the lack of that quote. confused.gif Harley has the customer service, my hats off to them.

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To break from my lurking tradition, it appears that HD has pulled out of the CHP bid. This information came from a reliable source, so speculate away. Thought readers and other motor officers would want to know....now back to lurking.

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Taking up the saddlebag isn't ideal. But I've worked with automotive OEMs doing small quanity stuff. It gets expensive when you leave behind the volumes of your mainstream business. If H-D is really just building 400 bikes to this spec, then it makes more sense.

 

Anyone know the volume on RT-P's per year for BMW, worldwide?

 

"Thuringer said that a special processing facility will be set up in Santa Cruz County to receive the “basic motorcycle” and then add on the special electronic components."

 

Is this that far off the RT-P strategy? I thought specific dealers delt the RT-Ps. I know TagSport was making a go at being an authority dealer. The description the owner gave me was similar. They would get the bikes then work to modify them for duty.

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To break from my lurking tradition, it appears that HD has pulled out of the CHP bid. This information came from a reliable source, so speculate away. Thought readers and other motor officers would want to know....now back to lurking.
Who WAS that masked man?? grin.gif

 

Well, let me be the first to speculate: could it be . . . "Global Warming"? dopeslap.gifgrin.gif

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To break from my lurking tradition, it appears that HD has pulled out of the CHP bid. This information came from a reliable source, so speculate away. Thought readers and other motor officers would want to know....now back to lurking.
Who WAS that masked man?? grin.gif

 

Well, let me be the first to speculate: could it be . . . "Global Warming"? dopeslap.gifgrin.gif

 

Well...um.. as long as the source was RELIABLE. clap.gifgrin.gifclap.gif

 

The real question is, why isn't SOMEBODY trying hard to get this contract? Between Honda, Yamaha, BMW, HD, and a few others, you'd think that someone would put together an offer that would be attractive, particularly if HD was having trouble supporting the RFP. Maybe the State of CA isn't an attractive customer, i.e. maybe they don't pay their bills on time, or the customer is so demanding that there's no hope of making a profit, etc..

 

Seems like a lot of bureaucratic garbage to deal with just to sell (or buy) some motorcycles. Heck, as I've noted before, if I were involved in BMW management, I'd try to put together one last run of the R1150RT just to get the deal. They'd still outperform most of the competition (for law enforcement purposes), cost $13 top $15K out the door, and BMW will be supporting parts and services on these for a long, long time in any case. Selling 400 BMW R1150RTPs to the CHP would make it a whole lot more likely that they'd be able to sell the R1200RTP to the CHP when it was available. Just to concede the US Authority motorcycle market share is a stupid business decision.

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From what I've heard of this process, it sounds like the CHP is scraping the bottom of the cost barrel and rewarding vendors who either take a loss on the bikes or need to set up unorthodox production facilities to come in under cost. If that's true, it's no wonder we hear these stories about BMW failing to bid or HD making last-minute changes. I'm sure any manufacturer could put together a bid that they could deliver on, but it doesn't look like that's enough to be competitive. From here, it looks like the CHP procurement office is shooting the rest of the department in the foot (figuratively speaking).

 

As for the 1150RT-P, BMW reportedly produced 97,474 units in 2005. I wouldn't be surprised if setting up a production line for a 400 unit run of an obsolete model would add more overhead to the batch than they could ever competitively recoup (see above). As for getting a toe in the door with a view to selling the 1200RTP, it looks like the CHP has little vendor loyalty and no concern for what bike is best in the market.

 

Obviously, I don't know how BMW made the business decisions that got them to this point, but I can see a reasonable decision process resulting in it.

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"Thuringer said that a special processing facility will be set up in Santa Cruz County to receive the “basic motorcycle” and then add on the special electronic components."

 

Is this that far off the RT-P strategy? I thought specific dealers delt the RT-Ps. I know TagSport was making a go at being an authority dealer. The description the owner gave me was similar. They would get the bikes then work to modify them for duty.

That is my question too. In the past, new CHP spec RT-P's were delivered to CHP Motor Transport by A&S in Roseville.

At Motor Transport, a state employee would install the radio, siren control, radar and decals on the motorcycle. The motorcycle would then be shipped or ridden to the various field offices where it would be placed in service.

Why isn't that being done with Harley's? Why is a new motorcycle installation and processing facility needed near Santa Cruz when CHP already has such a facility in West Sacramento?

You would think the bureaucratic bean counters would see the economic sense by having the new Harley's shipped from Santa Cruz HD to Sac where there already is a processing shop.

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Based on what I've read....

 

HD motors will need additional electronics, lights, wiring and mounts added before they can be turned over to CHP for the final few touches (sirens, radio, decals). IIRC, another poster quoted ~$3,000 for a dealership to prep the bike for turnover to a department.

 

BMW motors come from the factor w/ lights, wiring, mounting bars, etc, so there is minimal activity for the dealer setup person.

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HD motors will need additional electronics, lights, wiring and mounts added before they can be turned over to CHP for the final few touches (sirens, radio, decals). IIRC, another poster quoted ~$3,000 for a dealership to prep the bike for turnover to a department.
Don't exaggerate, now. They don't need THAT much work . . . . smile.gif

 

63357326-M.jpg

 

Stay safe out there! dopeslap.gif

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motorman587

Unless it has changed, the local dealer has to put on the lights and siren for BMW. Decals are done by our fleet.

 

Honda and Harley it is up to the dealers themselves to add that as an opition to install lights and siren.

 

You can order the BMW without lights if you wish.

 

We are going through this right now. The city wants a 10 year contract from some dealer. Could be a lease opition, which I hope not, because that would mean HD. Honda has the cheapest motorcycle w/o lights and siren between $13000 $14000. We will see.

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To break from my lurking tradition, it appears that HD has pulled out of the CHP bid. This information came from a reliable source, so speculate away. Thought readers and other motor officers would want to know....now back to lurking.

I heard from informed sources that Chuck Downing (National BMW Authority motorcycle sales mananger) also heard a rumor that CHP is backing out of HD. Chuck was unable confirm the rumor because anyone at CHP who knows anything about this is under orders not to comment about it or face disciplinary action from IA. HD is still acting like everything is ok with the bid.

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James Clark
I heard from informed sources that Chuck Downing (National BMW Authority motorcycle sales mananger) also heard a rumor that CHP is backing out of HD. Chuck was unable confirm the rumor because anyone at CHP who knows anything about this is under orders not to comment about it or face disciplinary action from IA. HD is still acting like everything is ok with the bid.

 

 

You heard a rumor that a BMWNA employee is spreading a rumor . . .

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As for the 1150RT-P, BMW reportedly produced 97,474 units in 2005.

 

How is that number possible? Seems to me that I remember total worldwide production at the Berlin plant was hovering around 85,000-95,000 bikes (all models). And imports to the U.S. for retail was around 15,000 bikes annually, with the GS and RT leading the pack. Maybe you added a 9 to that number by mistake?

 

Chris

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Sorry for the confusion. The number I quoted was reported as BMW's worldwide motorcycle production, not just the RT-P model.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I heard from informed sources that Harley has failed the testing process at the CHP Academy in West Sacramento. Harley now has the right to appeal the failure and submit improvements and/or changes needed to pass the test.

Understandably, CHP is tight lipped about this information.

The saga continues....

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More tidbits of "informed sources information" and unofficial rumor.

Harley Davidson's opportunity to appeal the testing failure has expired and the bid goes to BMW by default. Legal action against the State of California by HD is anticipated.

I heard the Honda 1300 ST-P also failed the test for some reason. Can you spell "engine heat"?

Mike., do you care to chime in?

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Some UK police forces have had problems with stability on the Police version of the ST1300 - to the extent of reported accidents - one fatal (not seen on civil versions). Perchance this is the reason for Honda's rumoured failure?

 

Andy

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Street Tracker

That was several years ago and is well-documented within the ST riding community. This issue was addressed before the ST13 ever reached the US (it was available as a 2002 model in Europe before it came here in 2003.)

 

My understanding about why the ST was not chosen is that it was a purely political decision: The Governator wants his boys riding Harleys and that's that: change the rules to fit if you need to.

 

If someone here knows something different I'd like to hear about it.

 

PS: I own both an '01 Road King and an '05 ST13 (as well as a departed R1100RS-L.) Each bike is wonderful in it's own role but I can't even imagine having to chase someone down with the King!

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Looks like a true fact of Harley loosing out after all. After cluging up an ABS system, installing a 103 cubic inch motor so the bike would hit the required minimum top speed of 110 MPH, the bike would then develop a speed wobble at speed. In spite of Arnolds best efforts to switch to HD and the apparent effort to stack the deck in HD's favor, Harley just couldn't make the grade, this is very good for BMW. thumbsup.gif

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Philby, I was in Kerrville this past weekend, our family has a place on the South Fork just past Hunt, my Grandparents built it in 1923, fantastic country. thumbsup.gif

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Howd y'all grin.gif

We love it down here...but, next time, drop us a line BEFORE you come down here..... thumbsup.gif

Great motorcycle museum near Lost Maples State Park (Lone Star Motorcycle Museum, Vanderpool)....nice ride getting to it and good food at the end of it (on the weekends!)

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Phil, was there at the museum with about 25 members of the new www.Motorcyclistcafe.com web site.

 

66271736-M.jpg

 

Also stoped at the Motor Cycle Stop in Leakey, no we were not on Harleys........

 

66271756-M.jpg

 

We spent a 3 day weekend doing some serious sport riding thru all the wounderful roads in the Texas Hill country. Perfect roads for my R1200T.Spent every summer of my life there in Hunt until finished college, later on I was a test pilot/engineer for Mooney and the first director of Parks and Recreation for the city of Kerrille.

 

The Texas Hill country has a very soft place in my heart.

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Damn...Is it just me or does that Harley look like it came out of a 1950's Highway Patrol episode???

 

'course it does. The styling is essentially unchanged, since the customers like it.

 

Pilgrim

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Damn...Is it just me or does that Harley look like it came out of a 1950's Highway Patrol episode???

 

'course it does. The styling is essentially unchanged, since the customers like it.

 

Pilgrim

 

 

At least you can get to a dealer and find parts for them....

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Why is it that everyone seems to be rooting for BMW to win the contract? Wouldn't it be better to be chased by an LEO that can't go very fast, will scrape and low-side on any significant corner, won't wave to you, will be dressed inappropriately for riding, and will most likely terminate his pursuit of you if he passes a bar?

 

Go Harley!!!

 

BOB

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Why is it that everyone seems to be rooting for BMW to win the contract? Wouldn't it be better to be chased by an LEO that can't go very fast, will scrape and low-side on any significant corner, won't wave to you, will be dressed inappropriately for riding, and will most likely terminate his pursuit of you if he passes a bar?

 

Go Harley!!!

 

BOB

If BMW gets it then there will be a lot more used RT-Ps for me to choose from in a few years.

 

GO BMW!!

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Nuff said mate grin.gifgrin.gif

The folks in the Rio Frio MS stop are very welcoming and it's a nice venue to "shoot the breeze" isn't it. Did you try the meat pies at LSMM? Mmmm...

Here I am in Mooney territory and I never got around to flying one frown.gif!

Am checked out in a lot of other SEL's (Pipers, Cessna's, Grumman, Aerospatiales) but never flew a Mooney...doubt whether I will now as I became inactive about 3 years ago. I allowed my medical to expire due to health reasons.

 

Still, do give me a yell if you are coming down...any excuse to go riding y'know thumbsup.gifthumbsup.gif

 

Stay safe...

thumbsup.gif

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James Clark
Looks like a true fact of Harley loosing out after all. After cluging up an ABS system, installing a 103 cubic inch motor so the bike would hit the required minimum top speed of 110 MPH, the bike would then develop a speed wobble at speed. In spite of Arnolds best efforts to switch to HD and the apparent effort to stack the deck in HD's favor, Harley just couldn't make the grade, this is very good for BMW. thumbsup.gif

 

 

I guess requiring centerstands was an example of rigging the specs to favor Harley?

 

Face it, skeery-looking biker-types are frequently found lurking around Harley shops and it would been a serious drain on resources to call in for half a dozen officers for backup just to drop a bike off for service.

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