Hybrid Hatred (Volt related)

[Quinn]

Wonder how long a total electric car takes to charge.

Also wonder how the batteries die of old age. Like my cellphone that lasted for days when new and now must be recharged every night? Or like my motorcycle battery that starts the bike one day and won't turn it over the next? Guess I'll ask when the Leaf tour gets to Raleigh.

 

---

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Quinn-

 

Much of this charging info is answered on the Leaf's website. Re batteries the fear of death is not founded. These are not lead acid batteries that last 3-5 years. These are Lithium based (or in the Prius Nickel based) and so far we are seeing double-digit years out of them without issue. See previous post from Consumer Reports retesting an old Prius with no appreciable loss in battery performance.

 

-MKL

[Selden]

Nissan claims 21 hours for a full charge from a completely depleted battery pack on 110V AC; 7 hours on the 220V charger; less than an hour if you can find a 440V charging station. Re life, someone (Consumer Reports?) recently said they are getting the same performance out of a serveral year old Prius at a quarter million miles as when new.

 

The Leaf comes with a 3G radio (and 3-year data plan) that connects to a web site, and allows you to monitor its state of being with an iPhone app (Blackberry and Android versions coming). Also 2 years free towing service, and they claim they are working with AAA to add recharging to their motorist rescue services. The built-in SatNav system includes a charging station locator, and will calculate the best route from your current location to the nearest charging station. Obviously, there are very few at the moment, and they are selling on a great deal of hope/hype for future, but at this time almost nonexistent infrastructure.

[moshe_levy]

Selden, Google Shai Agassi or watch his speeches on You Tube. His infastructure idea is a novel one - manufacturers standardize on battery packs and stations replace them as you would fill a tank. Take out the old, swap in the new, within 2 minutes or so. I linked to a particular speech earlier in this thread. Several countries (and some states in the US) are undergoing such pilot programs based on Agassi's idea as we speak.

 

-MKL

 

PS - Yes, that was Consumer Reports, testing a decade+ old Prius with 200k on it, and no loss of battery performance whatsoever. So much for the doom and gloom crowd's dire predictions....

[moshe_levy]

Today's Headline: "OIL PRICE JUMPS 8.5% IN A DAY". I'm not touching the politics but "unrest" generally equals higher prices per barrel. Maybe some of the "hybrid hatred" will start subsiding.... Nah!

 

-MKL

 

[Matts_12GS]

smells like SMUG in here....

 

I guess stereotypes DO come from someplace...

[Whip]

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/03/01/gm-sells-281-chevy-volts-february-nissan-67-leafs/

[moshe_levy]

Whip-

 

This was covered by Johnran in the High HP Thread. In short, it don't mean squat. One of the aspects that I think is causing confusion here is "deliveries" vs. "sales." Two VERY different things. GM calls 281 Volts in February the number of "deliveries," meaning produced finished goods sold from GM to dealers. The Autoblog link calls them "sales" meaning, presumably, sales from GM to its dealers.

 

To confuse the two paints a very flawed picture, which doesn't jive with reality. Reality is production is just now slowly ramping up on both Volt and Leaf. I can speak better of Volt since I have experience shopping for one. Production is limited to 15k for the year, and if you try to buy or lease one, you're going to pay a hefty premium, or wait 4-6 months, or both. Call around, and check what I'm saying, and let us know if the same is true in your area. It certainly is here. A waiting list and price gouging over MSRP speaks to consumer demand FAR more than the actual deliveries GM made, which speaks to constraints in SUPPLY due to production just ramping up.

 

What you want to look at to gauge demand is the number of sales from DEALERS to CUSTOMERS (actual cars or deposits on them) not from GM to dealers. The former shows you customer demand. The latter shows you company supply. Let's not lose sight of that critical distinction.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

Bundle up..

 

http://www.wheels.ca/News%20and%20Features/article/794286

[philbytx]

Simple, Pimple! Anyone wanting to drive a Volt, just move South . Energy savings all around eh?

 

 

[moshe_levy]

After the winter we've had, believe me, it's tempting!

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

One more note on the so-called "slow sales" of the "chilly" Volt: Right now, it's only on sale in seven territories: California, New York, Michigan, Texas, New Jersey and the Washington D.C. area. GM sold ~40 Volts in February in each state. That sales pace in 50 states would equate to 2,000 Volts a month. The roll out plans full availablility by year's end in all states. There is a cap of 15,000 cars for 2011. You can now see way more demand (24k at this rate) than supply (15k fixed).....

 

-MKL

[Whip]

One more note on the so-called "slow sales" of the "chilly" Volt: Right now, it's only on sale in seven territories: California, New York, Michigan, Texas, New Jersey and the Washington D.C. area. GM sold ~40 Volts in February in each state. That sales pace in 50 states would equate to 2,000 Volts a month. The roll out plans full availablility by year's end in all states. There is a cap of 15,000 cars for 2011. You can now see way more demand (24k at this rate) than supply (15k fixed).....

 

-MKL

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I want the Volt to be the best selling vehicle in the history of the world.

 

I also want a diesel 2 door Tahoe....

 

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

here

[moshe_levy]

Good link, John. The end price comparo glosses over the fed and state rebates which bring the Volt in line with other comparable hybrids and allow those with average or shorter commutes to be not just gas efficient, but gas free entirely. THEREIN lies the main attraction to the "early adopter" Volt consumer, though this seems to escape most journalists for some reason.

 

Dad's Volt will be here in 7 more weeks. It's loaded to the hilt with every available option. When it gets here I'll give my thoughts vs. a traditional hybrid like my Prius which I have 70k experience with. As I write this my new 7.5KW solar system is being installed, which will enable me to charge dad's Volt during daylight hours for free.

 

-MKL

[Bob Palin]

Not charging for free - how much does a 7.5kw solar unit cost? Not cheap I'm thinking.

[Twisties]

Not charging for free - how much does a 7.5kw solar unit cost? Not cheap I'm thinking.

 

Capital costs/expected years of service - any amounts sold to the electric co. + any repairs or maintenance.

 

If you are charging the Volt at night, then you must have some sort of storage system with your 7.5 kW system. Batteries are high maintenance.

 

 

[RonStewart]

To be fair, Moshe did say he could charge for free "during daylight hours."

[moshe_levy]

Indeed, "free" electricity during daylight hours.

 

No batteries on my system. This is an "on the grid" system which sells back to utility. Here in NJ if you buy a system that goes "off grid" (i.e. with batteries for storage such that you're self sufficient) you give up all state and federal rebates, which can be substantial.

 

So in my case, the system raw cost is about $40,000.00. State rebate is $0 because that ran out this year (my lousy luck for procrastinating) and fed rebate is 30% or about $12,000.00. So total cost is about $28k total. There are some other misc rebates but they don't amount to much, so I won't count them here.

 

In return I get free electricity (doesn't amount to much) and, far more importantly, SREC coupons which are sold on the open market. SRECs are "Solar Renewable Energy Credits" - basically credits bought by utility companies so they can comply with minimum generation via renewable sources, such as produced by my system. These coupons are currently priced around $600 (low end) in NJ.

 

My system will produce at around 8-9 SRECs per year (generation is based on production, irrespective of my consumption - nice!) This is 100% tax free income, by the way. So at today's prices which are not expected to fall anytime soon - quite the contrary, actually - the system will generate around $4800-5400 per year in SRECs, and eliminate my electric bill which is likely around $2800 per year. As such, the system will pay for itself in about 4 years at the outside, and afterwards will generate a nice, tax free income for the next 20 years (under warranty) while simultanously reducing emissions since I'm not reliant on the utility which (for the most part) is a dirty source. In other words, everybody wins.

 

I realize we're veering off topic here, but this was an investment decision I planned on a few years ago, when the market bottomed out. I figured my house is a safe bet, and the sun is definitely coming up each day. Safer than the stock market, I figured. We'll see if this plays out, but so far all the references I spoke to before pulling the trigger all said the same thing: "I wish I did it earlier!!"

 

By the way, I'm taking the full tilt program here, where I pay all the bills. There are various options available, including leasing where you don't own the system, but in effect "rent" the space on your roof to investors, who own and maintain the system. They make a killing on the SRECs and depreciation, and sell you electricity for next to nothing. So your outlay is small and your reward is small, a low or no electricity bill. My system on a lease would cost about $1000.00 out of pocket instead of $28,000.00, but that's the "small risk / small reward" tradeoff. I wanted to make some money out of this, and I think I will.

 

-MKL

[Twisties]

To be fair, Moshe did say he could charge for free "during daylight hours."

 

Now where is that reading teacher again? Don't think I've seen her since 4th grade. I must need a refresher. <>

[Paul Mihalka]

Besides, if Moshe can sell electricity to the power company in daytime and charge the car at night buying back the power, it is like free charging.

[Bob Palin]

Sounds excellent if it works out, big initial investment though.

[Selden]

Dad's Volt will be here in 7 more weeks. It's loaded to the hilt with every available option. When it gets here I'll give my thoughts vs. a traditional hybrid like my Prius which I have 70k experience with....

 

-MKL

I'm sure you will post a review soon after it arrives. I'll be very interested in how the Volt and Prius compare with city acceleration. One of the things that blew me away with the Nissan Leaf was the full torque at 0 mph, which made it a very responsive car to drive in traffic. Plus, no engine noise.

[Whip]

Sounds excellent if it works out, big initial investment though.

 

I have opened/bought a few bidnesses for less than that and made a lot of money with em.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[upflying]

One more note on the so-called "slow sales" of the "chilly" Volt: Right now, it's only on sale in seven territories: California, New York, Michigan, Texas, New Jersey and the Washington D.C. area. GM sold ~40 Volts in February in each state. That sales pace in 50 states would equate to 2,000 Volts a month. The roll out plans full availablility by year's end in all states. There is a cap of 15,000 cars for 2011. You can now see way more demand (24k at this rate) than supply (15k fixed).....

 

-MKL

Could the intentional scarcity of Volt's be directly correlated to dealer markup over MSRP? I have not seen a Volt in a dealer showroom but I am willing to bet $5k or $10k over MSRP is normal. Dealer greed is taking advantage of consumer demand for a scarce product.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Could the intentional scarcity of Volt's be directly correlated to dealer markup over MSRP? I have not seen a Volt in a dealer showroom but I am willing to bet $5k or $10k over MSRP is normal. Dealer greed is taking advantage of consumer demand for a scarce product.

 

:confused:

 

That's how you make money.

 

If you were a dealer selling Volts, what would you charge for one?

[Smoky]

Moshe, that rooftop solar system needs it's own thread.

 

What an interesting system.

[moshe_levy]

A few issues have been raised:

 

1) Paul, the Volt will run away from my Prius with no problem whatsoever. I drove a test model, albeit only in full electric mode, and it was substantially faster. 0-60 is usually quoted in the mid-8s while a Prius is in the high 9s, so there is indeed a noticeable difference. Neither one will run with a 911, so it's important to stay with the purpose of the car, which is economy above all else.

 

2) Volt gouging is indeed commonplace. Every dealer around here is charging $3-5k over list. Every dealer except the one I convinced not to, that is! Convicing was easy. I showed him 14 straight years of my parents leasing BMWs, mostly the higher end ones, and asked him if he was interested in short term gouging or a long term relationship. A manager came out from the back and agreed with my argument. I must say, one is not really treated like a human being at these "low line" brand dealerships. After you're used to BMW level treatment, Chevy and Toyota are hard to swallow sometimes. At least around here. But that's for another thread.

 

3) Perhaps we should move the solar discussion to another thread. Installation continued today and now I have the skeleton on my roof and the meters and breaker boxes in. The panels are next. Remember there is no storage here, it's completely "on grid." So when the sun goes down I pay for my electricity again. The Volt allows one to set automatic charging times remotely (via my I-phone for example) set for when utility rates are lowest, so it will be quite a bit cheaper per mile to run than any gas equivalent, even if we pay for electricity at night.

 

Whip, I do realize I could buy a franchise and start a business for my $28k, but the experiment here is to prove that the environment, "doing the right thing," and profit are not mutually exclusive entities. It's also quite a bit less risky than a business per se because it is a capital improvement to my single most valuable asset, my house. It also requires exactly 0 effort and exactly 0 time for me to make a profit, unlike any business. And the sun is, for lack of a better term, a "sure thing." Can't say that about ANY startup. As such, I don't think a business and a solar array are an apples to apples comparison, for these and a host of other reasons.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

I was just having fun with ya.

 

More power to ya.

 

[ESokoloff]

More power to ya.

 

Larry, your a punny guy

 

 

[Mark K]

I wish you luck with your solar project. Sounds good on paper.

 

Are your SRECs marketable only in NJ? It looks like this thing is barely off the ground there -- not even a year old. What does your worse-case-scenario look like if these coupons have no market in ten years? Five years? Next year? What is the new payback period?

 

It was nice that you get a huge chunk of it back immediately in the form of a tax credit. Much easier to swallow.

[moshe_levy]

NJ is quite aggressive in how much it demands utilities buy from RE sources. As such, the coupons are worth a good deal more here than elsewhere, so yes, I would obviously sell here. I am not sure if I can sell SRECs elsewhere, but it's a moot point anyway so long as my home state pays the most by far, which has been the case forever as far as I know. The program is hardly new, but it changes year to year as the market evolves and budgets change.

 

10 years ago, rebates from state and fed were so high, one could install a PV Array practically for free. Balancing this out is that an older system is nowhere near as efficient as a new, hence its output lower and its revenue generation compromised....

 

Are there risks? Of course. Many variables, including the fluctuating price of energy. Nobody knows where it will be in 5 years, nevermind 10. The gov't could always reduce its minimum buy backs, which would slash the value of the coupons. Not likely, but it can happen. More and more people can install arrays, increasing supply, which would also depress SRECs. Like any other investment, these risks have to be weighed and considered carefully before taking any action.

 

Based on my research, talking to dozens of users, and looking at the meager returns at the bank, it came down to this or a market type investment. I chose this for the reasons I outlined earlier. We shall see how it works out. I'm wondering if anyone else in here has an Array and some experience. Perhaps a new thread will reveal this, and allow those with more experience than I to chime in.

 

-MKL

[John Ranalletta]

Volt report

[moshe_levy]

My dad will be one of these people. His work round trip is 20 miles, and he rarely drives anywhere else. So he'll be one of these guys that rarely fills up anymore. The article itself is constructed in a pretty stupid way, "dropping the other shoe" to the obvious only later on, and likewise most of the reader comments are extremely stupid as well. To comment on something, one should first understand its point, or purpose. Without that, it's just gums flapping. Lots of that going on with the Volt.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

I'll beat the haters to it:

 

http://www.wfsb.com/news/27541598/detail.html Headline: "Hybrid Car May Have Sparked Garage Blaze"

 

The proof? The only mention in the article? "Officials said they can't rule out that the couple's brand new Chevy Volt hybrid had something to do with the blaze." Well, duh! They can't rule ANYTHING out until the investigation's complete, can they?

 

Wow.... Responsible journalism, once again.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

I saw the article, but I didn't see the connection so I didn't post it.

 

BTW...I am looking at a hybrid to replace Mrs Whip's Surburban.

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Deep discounts on those large hybrids here in NJ, Whip. You should be able to swing a sweet deal - and don't forget to ax the salesman about any incentives coming your way on top of any other discounts you can get!

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

What a week. On Tuesay, the new solar array was finally turned on, AND the Volt arrived. I somehow convinced my dad to let me "borrow" the Volt for its first two days, to test it out and get a feel for it. I got it home and immediately charged it (using my solar array for as long as daylight was out) and then put some miles on it after studying the manual.

 

I must say, I was blown away by how good they got the "hard stuff." Driveline integration is completely seemless, NVH is non existent, ergonomics are fairly good for an American effort, fit and finish quite good, an excellent Bose stereo system with integrated 30GB hard drive is worthy of praise, and the sheer complexity of it is fairly well hidden for those that want to use it as a transportation appliance. Pans are few - the Playskool level plastic in some of the less traveled areas like the cargo bay (an expected American trademark, sadly,) watt-swilling halogen headlights on a vehicle that is supposed to be about efficiency, and a rubber front air dam that seemingly has about the same ground clearance as a Murcielago. I'm sure all of these will be fixed in time once we Guinea Pig first adopters start providing feedback.

 

Set up the Onstar app through the I-phone so I can now remote control and charge the car, as well as view diagnostics and other info. Pretty neat how technology is working out. It's addictive to play with all the bells and whistles for now.

 

The big test was my commute to work, 110 miles round and mostly highway. No babying here - hard acceleration and the cruise set to 80mph most of the way up, like usual. The 2-day old fully charged Volt managed a respectable 89.8MPGs, with a partial charge at work during the day before I left for home. Twice as good as my Prius and more than twice as good as my RT. Battery range was not affected by my relatively high speed driving - and the AC was on low, too. Not bad!

 

Reaction from the commuters at work was quite positive as well. At least one employee expressed serious interest for an immediate purchase and another about a year out when his lease is up. It got a crowd going in the parking lot. Lots of interest and plenty of misconceptions about what it is and what is can and can't do. Hopefully GM will do a better job than Toyota in educating consumers.

 

I'll post more feedback once I get some real experience with it, and it's not my car so it may be awhile. But I did feel obligated to do something I haven't done in 25 years of being a car nut, and that is to congratulate GM on a job well done. To me it has the makings of a winner.

 

-MKL

[russell_bynum]

That's pretty much in line with my thoughts on the Volt that my friend has. I think they did really well with it. I haven't driven it yet (he offered, but I just haven't taken him up on it yet.) but it doesn't exhibit any unfavorable handling tendencies that I could feel as a passenger.

 

I think it's a pretty good looking car, too. (unlike the Prius.)

 

Longevity and reliability are yet to be seen so far, but if those factors turn out well, if it is nice to drive, and if the price comes down out of the "Are you f***ing kidding me?" range, I'd give it fairly serious consideration as a replacement for my old 3-series, once it finally goes to that big junkyard in the sky.

[moshe_levy]

Russ-

 

Oddly, I was approached by various Prius owners at stoplights, who all commented how ugly the car was. They were jealous of the MPGs though. I think the Volt is OK looking - a Kammback shape for sure, and really from a distance the Prius and Volt could be twins. The handling, ride, and overall performance (what it's like to drive, the instant torque from the DC drive, directional stability and handling, etc.) all leave my Gen 2 Prius sucking smoke big time. I would say vastly superior to the current Gen 3 Prius as well - feels more like a "real car" and has similar tendencies to any American attempts at "sporty sedan" type of feel - you know that overdamped type of feel. Try it and let us know what you think.

 

I too am hoping reliability turns out well. I was heartened to see GM is really paying attention - in two days, we've gotten follow up calls from the dealer (sales AND service) as well as Onstar and even a factory rep. They are watching and tracking every mile, through the Onstar system which reports diagnostics to the factory and the dealer itself in real time. Usually on any low or mid level brand car you're lucky to have a mediocre sales experience, and that definitely includes Toyota. So I was happy they're trying hard. Too new to know but let's hope for the best. It certainly feels like the quality in the driveline is there, that's for sure.

 

Re price if you study close, and compare it to apples and apples (as close as one can, anyway) you will see it is not expensive. With the federal rebate and any applicable state rebates factored in, it's actually CHEAPER than a top of the line Prius Five, which gets half the MPGs on my commute (and roughly that same proportion on the EPA scale). Not "cheap" relatively speaking since we're still in the low to mid $30s, but definitely in the ballpark since these days a Prius can run you that much and more when loaded up, and it can only be compared loaded up since the Volt has all the bells and whistles in it from the get go.

 

The downside for me is the 4 passenger limit (4 buckets inside with the battery pack running straight through the cabin where the "driveshaft tunnel" would be in a standard traditional RWD car.) I've got 2 kiddies and one more on the way, so I need a 5 passenger car. However, as the technology matures, like Prius, I expect Volt will spawn a family including a microvan (like the upcoming Prius V which will get 40mpg, down from the current Prius' 50mpg, but will boast 50+% more cargo space) and then, based on my experiences thus far, I will be in line for one.

 

Try your friend's - I'm genuinely curious as to your thoughts.

 

-MKL

[russell_bynum]

has similar tendencies to any American attempts at "sporty sedan" type of feel - you know that overdamped type of feel.

 

Hmm. That's discouraging. I'll save judgement until I actually get to drive it, I really like a car to be fun to drive. I don't need a thousand horsepower...my old 3-series is a hoot to drive and is slower than even a 1st generation Prius. But for me...a car has to be fun to drive and have some character and spirit to it.

 

"Re price if you study close, and compare it to apples and apples (as close as one can, anyway) you will see it is not expensive. With the federal rebate and any applicable state rebates factored in, it's actually CHEAPER than a top of the line Prius Five, which gets half the MPGs on my commute (and roughly that same proportion on the EPA scale). Not "cheap" relatively speaking since we're still in the low to mid $30s, but definitely in the ballpark since these days a Prius can run you that much and more when loaded up, and it can only be compared loaded up since the Volt has all the bells and whistles in it from the get go."

 

$30K for a $16K car is "Are you F***ing kidding me?" territory.

 

Yes yes...I know...there's lots of tech in the Volt that you don't get in conventional cars in it's size class. I don't pay for technology, I pay for "A vehicle that meets my requirements." If it does that with a magneto-hydrodynamic-plasma drive system...fine. If it does it with rubber bands....fine. I'm looking for a product that meets my requirements and I really don't care how it gets there. Therefore...I'm not willing to pay more if it gets there via a more expensive route. Likewise with all the bells and whistles. I don't need that stuff and mostly don't want it...therefore I'm not willing to pay extra for it.

 

So...I'd pay more for a Volt than..say...a Cruze because the Volt gets better mpg. But I'm not paying $15K more. Even I don't drive enough to make that worthwhile.

 

Get it down into the low-mid 20's and then it starts to become more interesting. I think it'll get there, too. Sheeple were paying mid $30's for the Prius when they first became popular and now a base model is in the low $20's.

 

One thing I don't like about the interior...I do fit in the back seat behind a normal-sized adult in the front (I'm 6'4".) Legroom is fine, especially for a car that size. But...my hair brushes the headliner unless I sit all the way back. If I sit all the way back, my head is actually under the rear window glass and the extra couple of inches of headroom make the difference. That's not the end of the world. I'm definitely not uncomfortable in the back seat, but it wouldn't be my first choice to ride back there on a cross-country trip.

 

Oddly, I was approached by various Prius owners at stoplights, who all commented how ugly the car was

 

It's all subjective, of course. There are certainly similarities in the shape of the Volt vs. the Prius. I can't put my finger on it, but I just know that my initial (and subsequent) reactions when I saw the Prius were strongly unfavorable, and I actually kinda like the way the Volt looks.

 

I'll post back when I drive the car. It's only got 2300 miles on it, and it is my boss's car, so I'm a little hesitant about borrowing it and putting it through it's paces when it still smells like a new car. I don't think it would bode well for me if I returned it to him scalding hot and with the tires reduced to a molten mess. "Here's yer keys, boss...she's all broke in now."

[moshe_levy]

6'4" and you fit into the back seat?? Wow, that's a feat! Used to be that the Prius had lousy rear headroom too - a downside of the aerodynamic Kammback shape. But, Toyota moved the roof's apex way back on Gen 3 (2010+), and now it's quite roomy back there headroom wise. A tremendous improvement over my Gen 2. Perhaps the same trick will work for GM on the next gen Volt.

 

Re price yes, I agree, it will come down in time of course. Not to mid-20s equipped as it is anytime soon, but it will come down. Study Prius sales and you'll see, nearly nobody buys the base model. Honda's Insight costs far less than a Prius, and nobody buys that either. In general they're bought pretty well equipped in the high 20s to low 30s - not far from where a Volt would be, and the Volt offers a FAR more lively driving experience. It really was fun to drive that car - not 3-Series fun, but fun in its own way. I'm looking forward to hearing what your thoughts are when you finally get a chance to drive it.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

I test drove a Volt on Thursday. It was much bigger than I thought it would be. It handled great. The interior was very nice. It had plenty of power. Mrs Whip loved it.

Mine is scheduled for delivery on Oct 15th. 43,500 before the $7K Big Bro incentive.

 

I was picking up my Duramax when I saw the Volt.

 

$25K Big Bro incentive on it.

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Dad has filled the Volt's tiny 9g tank once in the past 1,500 miles of use, so he's quite happy with it. GM is in constant contact with him by e-mail and check up by phone - they're really rolling out the red carpet for the beta-tester crowd... As an engineer he's already ordered and dismantled several "chargers" (they're not really, but that's another story) for the car and has set up a car charger port at work where his and other EVs can charge on 120 or 240VAC. He's like a kid again with this car. Anyway, after 20 years away, he's back in an American car, and his Prius is for sale. I guess that says something.

 

I've tried to find a Nissan Leaf, but there are none around here and won't be for months. NJ is not on the short list of first roll-outs for that car. I was curious how it compares.

 

Glad you liked the Volt, Whip.

 

-MKL

[EddyQ]

GM Shutting Down Volt plant

 

Just a FYI and interested in your thoughts.

(Not that I am for or against hybrids or the Volt)

[Smoky]

Too bad, GM needs to hit one out of the park. I was rooting for the Volt.

 

You would think that with gas as high as it is, they would be ramping up production.

[enfoman]

Not offering a discount and "refused to do what it does with every other slow-selling vehicle and offer rebates or other incentives to motivate fence-sitters" plus the gov't taking away tax incentives to buy may just put this car in line with the Edsel.

 

Perhaps Chevy was missing their market and not offering a basic commuter car with little frills but it seems as if Nissan isn't doing much better on that front either. My personal lament with these cars are simply the long term cost involved. If I am hanging on to it after 3 years and with that there would be the major cost of a new battery pack. People will seldom budget for that with life's other daily expenses being pressed so hard these days.

[moshe_levy]

Eddy-

 

We touched on this in another thread here http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=740781&page=7 . Essentially this is a very poor market for all vehicles, not just the Volt. It is a halo car that is right now being marketed to early adopters - much like the original Prius from 1997 which certainly didn't set any sales records out of the gate, either - it was a good 7 years before that concept caught on. Toyota had the foresight to "stick with it" - a very un-American concept when it comes to the auto industry.

 

The good news is we're forecasting 14m cars sold this year, which should lift the tide everywhere. The average American's car is now almost 11 years old, so demand is going to kick in soon out of pure necessity. I am very much in favor of GM's decision not to discount the price - first because it should not sell them at a loss (development costs for this car are astronomical,) and second because we don't want to go back to the bad old days of Rick Wagoner's asinine policy of discounting every vehicle GM built and only achieving volume through a "low or no profit" model. This is a halo car - like a Corvette (when do you see those discounted?) - not something you want to be shown on firesale TV commercials.

 

The car has been battered by (incorrect) media hype concerning fires (completely exonerated in all cases, but the hype still hurts). It is also being used as a political football by certain politicans who

 

a) are overtly rooting for an American designed, American manufactured car with cutting edge technology to fail - what does that tell you about their ideas?

b) are tying the car to the current administration, woefully ignorant of the fact that the concept debuted well before 2007 (nevermind the current administration).

 

The media hype and political grandstanding are usually the same outfits, not surprisingly.

 

Sales have been on an uptick recently, though. Last month the Volt outsold the Leaf 2 to 1. Hopefully this will continue. Part of the problem is GM's lackluster PR - they let these faulty news "reports" go unanswered and scare off new customers. They should be aggressive as hell, like Suzuki was in countering CR's attacks on the Samurai, not passive as Audi was in dealing with 60 Minutes.

 

What will the future hold? We'll see. If GM follows the Toyota model of looking out long term, and continues to refine the product, I am confident it will catch on because the concept is truly great and the execution is also stellar. They need an ad campaign which highlights what this car can do, and why people should buy it (national security, energy independence, etc. not just environmentalism). They got all the hard parts right. If however GM takes the stereotypical Wall Street "only look as far as next quarter" view of things, the car may suffer a premature death. In that case as consumers, and as Americans, we will have lost a valuable benchmark product.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

PS - don't forget the fickle and irrational American consumer, either. If gas spikes, as everyone is predicting it will, we may see a replay of 2008 when Detroit racked up 120 days of inventory on its SUVs while Toyota was charging $3k over MSRP on its Priuses. Except this time, consumers may go further, and look at Volt, or Leaf, or other much more efficient offerings. The more people drive them, the more people see them, the more people try them, and the more people buy them. A slow process, but one which is inevitable when consumers discover they don't really have to sacrifice anything on their commuter mobile in order to reduce or eliminate their dependency on oil.

 

Dad's Volt is now around 10,000 miles - and he's still under $100 spent in gas, total. He's still happy as a clam with the car.

 

-MKL

[Selden]

My personal lament with these cars are simply the long term cost involved. If I am hanging on to it after 3 years and with that there would be the major cost of a new battery pack. People will seldom budget for that with life's other daily expenses being pressed so hard these days.

IF the Volt and Leaf battery systems are as reliable as those of Prius, that shouldn't be an issue, as there are Priuses (Prii?) out there with 10 years and a quarter million miles on the original battery pack.

 

GM had an assembly plant in Delaware, which they shuttered a few years ago as part of the great restructuring. Fisker bought the plant to build their "Nina" plug-in hybrid (although when I used that term with one of their executives, he was offended, and said the Fiskers are "Extended Range Electric Eehicles = EREV -- I'll take "plug-in hybrid" which has the benefit of not requiring explanation).

 

After the lawsuits between Fisker and Tesla, I was somewhat skeptical, because Fisker seemed more like a pyramid marketing scheme than a real manufacturer. So far, they have only imported a few of their $100,000 Karma (which is assembled in Finland), and the Nina remains vaporware. There's not an awfully big market (but Justin Bieber got one!) for a $100,000 hybrid sedan that gets crappy gas mileage. Fisker closed the Delaware assembly plant last month, due to schedule slippage (which meant they didn't receive any more government loan money, since they hadn't met production milestones).

 

I've always been skeptical of the total energy chain efficiency claims of hybrids and all-electric vehicles. On the other hand, I suspect that the author of the Forbes article, "The EPA's Electric Vehicle Mileage Fraud" did not calculate the total energy/carbon cost for gasoline vehicles from well head through transport. The biggest advantage of the electric vehicles is that, for the most part, non-US petroleum isn't required to produce the electricity they ultimately consume. Natural gas is rapidly changing the economics of energy production and consumption.

 

Even though the article I cite mentions the EPA in an unfavorable light, I do not consider this overtly political, so I hope my post doesn't get flagged. The Forbes article is the first that I have seen that tries to do a total energy cost calculation for electric powered vehicles, so I'm much more interested in the science/engineering/economics, rather than the politics.