Hybrid Hatred (Volt related)

[russell_bynum]

It's getting better all the time, and the Volt represents a new step forward, like the very first RT. Not a sport bike, not a tourer - both. The Volt is not a traditional hybrid, not an EV - both.

 

I would have agreed with you if the Volt was what GM has been saying it would be...an EV with a gas generator. It isn't. It is just a plug-in Hybrid.

[moshe_levy]

I would have agreed with you if the Volt was what GM has been saying it would be...an EV with a gas generator. It isn't. It is just a plug-in Hybrid.

 

Russ, as I explained before, that's simply not true. Read up: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/cells/chevy-volt-hybrid-drive-system The Volt is not a *typical* Series / Parallel setup a'la Prius. Not even close.

 

-MKL

 

 

[ESokoloff]

It's getting better all the time, and the Volt represents a new step forward, like the very first RT. Not a sport bike, not a tourer - both. The Volt is not a traditional hybrid, not an EV - both.

 

I would have agreed with you if the Volt was what GM has been saying it would be...an EV with a gas generator. It isn't. It is just a plug-in Hybrid.

 

 

In your particular sistuation (and many others) this car/concept makes no sense.

You are not GM's market but for many this & subsequent offerings will make sense now & more so in the future.

[russell_bynum]

I would have agreed with you if the Volt was what GM has been saying it would be...an EV with a gas generator. It isn't. It is just a plug-in Hybrid.

 

Russ, as I explained before, that's simply not true. Read up: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/alternative-fuel/cells/chevy-volt-hybrid-drive-system The Volt is not a *typical* Series / Parallel setup a'la Prius. Not even close.

 

-MKL

 

 

As I said...a friend of mine has one on order and we've talked at great lengths about it...including the planetary gear system. I do agree that it does some things better than today's hybrids. But it's still just a plug-in hybrid and no amount of marketing bullshit is going to change that.

 

Doesn't mean it is a bad car...it seems to be better than the current crop. But let's not pretend it is something it isn't.

[russell_bynum]

It's getting better all the time, and the Volt represents a new step forward, like the very first RT. Not a sport bike, not a tourer - both. The Volt is not a traditional hybrid, not an EV - both.

 

I would have agreed with you if the Volt was what GM has been saying it would be...an EV with a gas generator. It isn't. It is just a plug-in Hybrid.

 

 

In your particular sistuation (and many others) this car/concept makes no sense.

You are not GM's market but for many this & subsequent offerings will make sense now & more so in the future.

 

I commute 120 miles/day. If anyone is a good market for a fuel efficient car, it's me.

[tallman]

It won't matter Russell, I do 110/day and when "the" vehicle is built, tall folks won't fit as the design paramters seem to be 5' to 6'.

[moshe_levy]

Russ-

 

The lengthy commute alone doesn't necessarily make you GM's target market, or a hybrid target in general. In fact, I would say a guy like my dad with a short commute is their target market, because to him it means he will run electric for 99% of the life of the car, yet will not have "range anxiety" if a longer trip ever comes up.

 

There is more as you know to a purchase decision than one factor. I've stated my political reasoning for what I drive. There is economics, environmental, and a whole host of other factors, and it doesn't seem from reading your posts like any of these tilts you towards this type of car, though it does for others like myself.

 

Tallman, the Prius isn't the only game in town. I haven't sat in a Volt yet so I cannot comment on that headroom, but I have coworkers in Camry and Ford Fusion hybrids, and each one of those gents is in excess of 6'4". They're comfy in those cars, but they're cramped in my Prius.

 

-MKL

 

[UberXY]

Whether the Volt is a winner or not remains to be seen, but as an old Chevy salesman told me on the lot the other day: "How the hell does GM expect me to sell a $22,000 car for $40k?" He liked the car and thought it was a good idea, just vastly overpriced. Personally, I don't see any groundbreaking technology in the Volt, but I suppose GM has to start somewhere.

 

 

BTW an acquaintance of mine was one of the recent winners of the X-prize. Nice guy, glad he won, but he gets quiet when I remind him that it would take 3 of his cars and 3 gallons of gas to take my family of five 100 miles, whereas it would take just one very conventional VW TDI and 2.5 gallons of diesel to make the same trip.

 

[moshe_levy]

"How the hell does GM expect me to sell a $22,000 car for $40k?"

 

He can start by doing a little homework and finding out that there's "just a little" more hardware and development behind the Volt than in a gussied up Civic, which is about what you can buy for $22k. He can then do a little light reading of his company's own brochures and note that no customer will ever pay $40k due to rebates, and he might even note that the Volt leases for less than most any car at that MSRP, even after the rebates. Some salesman he must be.....

 

-MKL

[russell_bynum]

"How the hell does GM expect me to sell a $22,000 car for $40k?"

 

He can start by doing a little homework and finding out that there's "just a little" more hardware and development behind the Volt than in a gussied up Civic, which is about what you can buy for $22k.

 

Oh...well that makes it OK.

 

"Gee Bob...you paid $30K for a $15K car."

"That's true Dave, but way more development went into the $15K car that I paid $30K for than if I'd just bought a $15K car."

"Good point. It's quite a bargain when you put it that way."

 

 

LOL.

 

Sorry man. There's reasons to buy the Volt, but personal economics ain't one of them.

 

[moshe_levy]

"Gee Bob...you paid $30K for a $15K car."

"That's true Dave, but way more development went into the $15K car that I paid $30K for than if I'd just bought a $15K car."

"Good point. It's quite a bargain when you put it that way."

 

Right. Except for the underlying ASSumption to this little exchange, that the Volt is actually a $22k car. $22k buys you a gussied up Civic, not a car with over $1b in development cost, and one of the most complicated DC drive systems in production, which results in the highest MPGs short of an EV available in this country.

 

I find it a little disappointing that fans of one of the most expensive marques of motorcycle are now all of a sudden shocked that something which pushes the technological envelope of fuel efficient autos is not the same price as a bargain basement Japanese economy car.

 

Something doesn't jive - either you don't get that these cars are more expensive because they're obviously more complicated to design and produce, or you expect alot for nothing. Either way, it's as silly as me saying we should all sell our beloved Bavarians and ride some old mopeds instead. After all, both have two wheels and an engine, right?

 

Personal economics IS a reason - not the only one, but one - to get a car like Volt.

 

-MKL

[Bob Palin]

Moshe - you are missing the point, what a car costs will almost always be related to how much it cost to design and build, but that's not necessarily related to what it's actually worth to the consumer.

[moshe_levy]

Bob-

 

I certainly get that point. I do not however subscribe to the viewpoint that a consumer will view a state of the art hybrid capable of 60mpg as being equal in value to a run of the mill economy car that's capable of about half that. We will see if I'm correct or not.

 

-MKL

[Matts_12GS]

Moshe - you are missing the point, what a car costs will almost always be related to how much it cost to design and build, but that's not necessarily related to what it's actually worth to the consumer.

 

+1

[russell_bynum]

Bob-

 

I certainly get that point. I do not however subscribe to the viewpoint that a consumer will view a state of the art hybrid capable of 60mpg as being equal in value to a run of the mill economy car that's capable of about half that. We will see if I'm correct or not.

 

-MKL

 

Yes, but the main reason most people would care what mpg a car gets is in how it impacts their cost of ownership. You would have to drive an awful lot of miles at 60mpg to make up the cost difference.

 

I'm also not sure why you keep referring to the Volt as if it is anything but a compact econobox, yes, it is loaded with technology, but at the end of the day, it is a small 4 seat car that I would put in the same class as cars like the Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Ford Focus, etc.

 

Edit: That's not to say that you might not be correct. The Prius has been a success despite being wildly overpriced and incredibly boring to drive. The Prius sold mostly because it was/is a fashion statement. The Volt is starting out a lap or so down because it doesn't look unique...nobody will be able to tell that you've got the same car as George Clooney and John Travolta because your car will look just like every other compact econobox on the market.

 

It may still succeed (and honestly I hope it does. Though I don't think it makes much sense today, I do think that it is another step in the right direction.) but I think it will have a bigger struggle ahead of it than the Prius did.

[moshe_levy]

Yes, but the main reason most people would care what mpg a car gets is in how it impacts their cost of ownership. You would have to drive an awful lot of miles at 60mpg to make up the cost difference.

 

In studying market surveys about hybrids years ago in grad school, I would 100% disagree with that first statement, and this is what the "anti-hybrid" crowd usually "doesn't get." The average hybrid owner is not buying a hybrid car in the intersts of one day "breaking even" with the fuel savings and then ultimately saving money. It does happen, of course, but it's way down on the list of reasons - and this is referenced in the Consumer Reports article on the Volt previously mentioned in this thread.

 

Rather, they are buying the car mainly for political, environmental, and fashionable reasons. In my case, it's 100% political. This is VERY different from diesel owners, who DO make the personal economic reason #1 - e.g., when will the premium I paid for this diesel Golf pay off vs. just buying a plain gas Golf?

 

This is why earlier, when you said you were a hybrid's target market, I took exception. Based on the average responses of the average hybrid owner, a long commute and saving money on gas is not even in the top 5. You need want to do it for the other reasons as shown above.

 

Wildly overpriced, and boring to drive... Yet, in survery after survey, including Consumer Reports, the Prius retains one of the highest levels of customer satisfaction, and the all-important "would you buy one again" customer loyalty numbers. Other manufacturers would kill for those numbers. They must be doing something right, I would say....

 

It's a transportation appliance, not a Ferarri. If I want "fun" on the road, I take the bike anyway. I can't afford a car that would get my blood boiling, which in my experience is six figures minimum.

 

-MKL

[Mike]

The average hybrid owner is not buying a hybrid car in the interests of one day "breaking even" with the fuel savings and then ultimately saving money. It does happen, of course, but it's way down on the list of reasons - and this is referenced in the Consumer Reports article on the Volt previously mentioned in this thread.

 

Rather, they are buying the car mainly for political, environmental, and fashionable reasons. In my case, it's 100% political.

 

While I can't claim to be exempt from making purchase decisions based, at least in part, on emotional factors, this truly befuddles me, because it's not evident to me that hybrids--at least as currently implemented--are actually good for the environment. Granted, that's the marketing hype, but it requires a certain willingness to ignore present reality. Note that I say "present," because the concept of recapturing energy lost through braking makes perfectly good sense; it just seems to me that all of the electric automotive technologies are still in their infancy and exact significant penalties, in terms of cost and/or negative impacts other than gasoline consumption.

 

I know that urging taxation is not likely to win one a popularity contest in this crowd, but it occurs to me that the Europeans may have gotten this one right when they decided to tax vehicle fuels at a high rate years ago. Revenue issues aside, this (and other factors, including relatively old, narrow roads) encouraged a fuel-thrifty approach to design that was left up to those in the business of making cars.

[Matts_12GS]

In studying market surveys about hybrids years ago in grad school, I would 100% disagree with that first statement, and this is what the "anti-hybrid" crowd usually "doesn't get." The average hybrid owner is not buying a hybrid car in the intersts of one day "breaking even" with the fuel savings and then ultimately saving money. It does happen, of course, but it's way down on the list of reasons - and this is referenced in the Consumer Reports article on the Volt previously mentioned in this thread.

 

Rather, they are buying the car mainly for political, environmental, and fashionable reasons. In my case, it's 100% political. This is VERY different from diesel owners, who DO make the personal economic reason #1 - e.g., when will the premium I paid for this diesel Golf pay off vs. just buying a plain gas Golf?

 

This is why earlier, when you said you were a hybrid's target market, I took exception. Based on the average responses of the average hybrid owner, a long commute and saving money on gas is not even in the top 5. You need want to do it for the other reasons as shown above.

 

And finally we come to the point that it really is just a feel good thing? A reason to spend more on something because all my friends do it whether it makes a difference or not. That helps explain the large clouds of SMUG behind the pious prius owners of the world. You call it an appliance in one paragraph to make it seem just a tool but only after admitting that you bought it with emotional ties. Seems a bit conflicted, maybe there's an app you can get for that.

 

 

Wildly overpriced, and boring to drive... Yet, in survery after survey, including Consumer Reports, the Prius retains one of the highest levels of customer satisfaction, and the all-important "would you buy one again" customer loyalty numbers. Other manufacturers would kill for those numbers. They must be doing something right, I would say....

 

There's not doubt they are selling a good number of them, and in a culture that is so rapt about what their celebrity heroes are doing there's no doubt that giving a few prii away to the notable greenies out there will pay off as smart marketing. But then again, Prada sells a lot of really weird looking shoes that hurt women's feet. That doesn't mean that there isn't a need for a company Nike in the marketplace.

[UberXY]

If you want to sell a $40k car, it should look like a $40k car, like the original volt concept car. I thought it looked great.

 

 

The looks of the to-be-delivered volt put it in that vast group of style-free appliance cars whose names I never learn. Judging by this dudes clothes, I suspect he is the chief Volt stylist.

 

 

II'm passing on the Volt and waiting for BMWs electric Megacity car.

 

BMW MegaCity

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul Mihalka]

"I know that urging taxation is not likely to win one a popularity contest in this crowd, but it occurs to me that the Europeans may have gotten this one right when they decided to tax vehicle fuels at a high rate years ago. Revenue issues aside, this (and other factors, including relatively old, narrow roads) encouraged a fuel-thrifty approach to design that was left up to those in the business of making cars."

 

+1

Exactly my opinion and I noted it before a couple of times.

[moshe_levy]

>>>>Note that I say "present," because the concept of recapturing energy lost through braking makes perfectly good sense; it just seems to me that all of the electric automotive technologies are still in their infancy and exact significant penalties, in terms of cost and/or negative impacts other than gasoline consumption.<<<<<<

 

Is 14 model years of use still considered "infancy?" There are plenty of newer technologies which result in higher efficiency - direct injection, the latest variable valve timing, and so on - which also add cost to the car. For the added cost, you get added efficiency or performance. Same thing here. Hybrid powertrain improves with every new generation of vehicle, same as any other technology. It is not new and it is not unreliable. Why this is hard to swallow, I don't know.

 

>>>>>And finally we come to the point that it really is just a feel good thing? A reason to spend more on something because all my friends do it whether it makes a difference or not. That helps explain the large clouds of SMUG behind the pious prius owners of the world. You call it an appliance in one paragraph to make it seem just a tool but only after admitting that you bought it with emotional ties. <<<<<

 

If that's what you read in my post, either I wasn't clear or you are deriving whatever point you want regardless of what you actually read. I don't see a reason to keep going around in circles about why people actually buy these cars, except to correct Russ' point about personal economics being a prime factor, which it is not. If you believe people buy these so they can be more like some celebrity, that's your decision and it's rather futile to try to change it with reason or fact.

 

-MKL

 

 

[russell_bynum]

I know that urging taxation is not likely to win one a popularity contest in this crowd, but it occurs to me that the Europeans may have gotten this one right when they decided to tax vehicle fuels at a high rate years ago. Revenue issues aside, this (and other factors, including relatively old, narrow roads) encouraged a fuel-thrifty approach to design that was left up to those in the business of making cars.

 

Remind me to give you a wedgie the next time I see you.

 

Govt trying to influence business through punitive taxation is never a good thing.

 

(And I say that as a guy who would happily drive a number of the small, very fuel efficient vehicles currently only offered in Europe.)

 

If you MUST have the govt drive this, couldn't you do it with higher CAFE standards rather than punitive taxation?

[upflying]

>>>>Note that I say "present," because the concept of recapturing energy lost through braking makes perfectly good sense; it just seems to me that all of the electric automotive technologies are still in their infancy and exact significant penalties, in terms of cost and/or negative impacts other than gasoline consumption.<<<<<<

 

Is 14 model years of use still considered "infancy?" There are plenty of newer technologies which result in higher efficiency - direct injection, the latest variable valve timing, and so on - which also add cost to the car. For the added cost, you get added efficiency or performance. Same thing here. Hybrid powertrain improves with every new generation of vehicle, same as any other technology. It is not new and it is not unreliable. Why this is hard to swallow, I don't know.

 

>>>>>And finally we come to the point that it really is just a feel good thing? A reason to spend more on something because all my friends do it whether it makes a difference or not. That helps explain the large clouds of SMUG behind the pious prius owners of the world. You call it an appliance in one paragraph to make it seem just a tool but only after admitting that you bought it with emotional ties. <<<<<

 

If that's what you read in my post, either I wasn't clear or you are deriving whatever point you want regardless of what you actually read. I don't see a reason to keep going around in circles about why people actually buy these cars, except to correct Russ' point about personal economics being a prime factor, which it is not. If you believe people buy these so they can be more like some celebrity, that's your decision and it's rather futile to try to change it with reason or fact.

 

-MKL

 

Appears to be some fact on this link that Hollywood celebrities embrace Prius' by the boatloads..

This drivel is exactly the reason why I will never own one. My decision has nothing to to do with MPG, purchase cost or concern for Global Warming.

http://www.allabouthybridcars.com/hollywood-hybrids.htm

[moshe_levy]

So what, Bob? What do I care what they drive? Many high profile celebs ride BMW motorcycles too. Is THAT why we all ride them here? C'mon, please.....

 

-MKL

[upflying]

But I don't ride a BMW to make a political statement.

[moshe_levy]

Again, so what? I don't care why you ride yours. I ride mine for my own reasons. Likewise I don't care who drives the same car as me, or what their reasons are. I have my own. I should think this is pretty elementary stuff anyone over 3rd grade can agree upon.

 

-MKL

[russell_bynum]

Yes, but the main reason most people would care what mpg a car gets is in how it impacts their cost of ownership. You would have to drive an awful lot of miles at 60mpg to make up the cost difference.

 

In studying market surveys about hybrids years ago in grad school, I would 100% disagree with that first statement, and this is what the "anti-hybrid" crowd usually "doesn't get." The average hybrid owner is not buying a hybrid car in the intersts of one day "breaking even" with the fuel savings and then ultimately saving money.

 

We're having two different conversations. I'm talking about "Most people" and you're talking about "the average hybrid owner".

 

Most people don't give a crap what sort of powertrain their car has. They want it to meet certain requirements for a given price. (Note: Many times those requirements are not purely logical/financial.) i.e. Most people don't say "I'm going to buy a Hybrid...which one?" Most people say "I'm going to buy a new car. Which one?"

 

That's my point...I don't think the Volt is going to win over many people who haven't already decided to buy a hybrid for political/religious reasons because without those reasons, it is just a $15,000 car that costs $30,000 and uses a bunch of newish and unproven technology. And of the people who are already politically/religiously predisposed to buy a hybrid, the Volt has an uphill battle to fight because unlike the Prius, it doesn't look any different than any other compact sedan on the market.

 

 

Rather, they are buying the car mainly for political, environmental, and fashionable reasons. In my case, it's 100% political.

 

That's been my point all along.

 

 

Based on the average responses of the average hybrid owner, a long commute and saving money on gas is not even in the top 5. You need want to do it for the other reasons as shown above.

 

Yup. That's what I've been saying...they don't make any sense. The only reason to own one is for fashion/political/religious reasons.

 

 

Wildly overpriced, and boring to drive... Yet, in survery after survey, including Consumer Reports, the Prius retains one of the highest levels of customer satisfaction, and the all-important "would you buy one again" customer loyalty numbers. Other manufacturers would kill for those numbers. They must be doing something right, I would say....

 

That's the power of BS, my friend. And yup...it's a wonderful thing for a manufacturer. We witnessed the same thing with Apple back in the late 80's/early 90's. Their products were dreadful. Hideous. Underperforming. Unstable. Grossly overpriced. (Since I have no religious ties to any particular manufacturer, this is when I switched from being a die-hard Apple guy for 10 years to Windows.) And yet most of the people who used them loved them and said they never have any problems. (Some of those people will now admit that OS X fixed a bunch of the problems which they always claimed never existed.) The thing is...They honestly believed what they said: All of the system crashes, the bad performance, the high price...it's like none of it ever happened. The power of BS.

 

[moshe_levy]

>>>>Most people don't say "I'm going to buy a Hybrid...which one?" Most people say "I'm going to buy a new car. Which one?"<<<<

 

No, you're not right about that. Even most first-time hybrid owners, according to Toyota's marketing focus groups that I studied in grad school, considered a hybrid only against other hybrids. Makes both of our points in different ways - I get what you're trying to say here, just pointing out the actual consumer behavior behind it.

 

 

>>>>Yup. That's what I've been saying...they don't make any sense. The only reason to own one is for fashion/political/religious reasons.<<<<<

 

I know that's what you're saying. What I'm saying is that glossing over political or environmental factors as "not making sense" or not mattering, to put it bluntly, makes no sense. I think it makes one helluva lot of sense.

 

I'm with you 100% on the fashion crowd, but any first month student of marketing knows fashion matters to many people, even if they don't admit it. That's not under discussion here as it is not my prime mover for advocating higher fuel economy and thus I'm not qualified to defend it beyond a surface discussion of marketing 101.

 

>>>> That's the power of BS, my friend. And yup...it's a wonderful thing for a manufacturer. We witnessed the same thing with Apple back in the late 80's/early 90's. Their products were dreadful. Hideous. Underperforming. Unstable. Grossly overpriced. <<<<<

 

In marketing this is discussed as the buyer's desire to reduce "cognitive dissonance." In layman's terms, forming denial that what he purchased is in fact crap, so as to feel better about the purchase.

 

The key point is, you're discussing actual problems Apple products had, and why users continued to deny they existed. Your example doesn't translate one millimeter to cars like the Prius, which offer stellar reliability and perform extremely well at what they were designed to do (which for the sake of going in circles again is not to tow, or win to drag races, but to get high MPGs). Owners are extremely satisifed, period.

 

If your theory holds true, are all of us hybrid drivers total dolts who swallow the Kool-Aid whole, while everyone else (including all the "normal" cars in the top 10 customer satisfaction ratings) independent thinkers? I hardly think so.

 

-MKL

[russell_bynum]

I know that's what you're saying. What I'm saying is that glossing over political or environmental factors as "not making sense" or not mattering, to put it bluntly, makes no sense. I think it makes one helluva lot of sense.

 

No...it doesn't make sense.

 

That's OK, btw. I ride an Italian sportbike with basically no weather protection, a pathetic fuel range, almost no dealer support, etc. That doesn't make any sense. I'm OK with that.

 

What's different between me and the average Hybrid owner is I'm not going to try to rationalize my choice. My bike makes no logical sense. I ride it because it stirs my soul. Most of my friends who own Hybrids will go on and on about how they're saving money on gas, how they're saving the planet, etc. They try to rationalize the decision and make it look logical when it isn't.

 

That's OK...it's their money (well...and mine since these things are subsidized by tax dollars) but don't try to apply rational reasons to an irrational decision.

 

The key point is, you're discussing actual problems Apple products had, and why users continued to deny they existed. Your example doesn't translate one millimeter to cars like the Prius, which offer stellar reliability and perform extremely well at what they were designed to do (which for the sake of going in circles again is not to tow, or win to drag races, but to get high MPGs). Owners are extremely satisifed, period.

 

Sure it is. They grossly overpaid for a small car which, in most cases (at least...in most of the cases that I know personally), doesn't get the sort of mpg they were hoping for. One of my friends swore up and down that he'd be getting 50+mpg. He's averaging somewhere around 40mpg. But if you ask him, it's great! If you're a rational person and you expected 50mpg and got 40mpg, you would not be satisfied. If you're a rational person and paid $28K for a Prius when you could have gotten a Corolla for #13K and not be that far off in terms of mpg vs. the Prius.

 

One friend of mine gave up a Corolla which was paid for and totally reliable for a first-gen Prius. And he swears up and down that he's saving a fortune due to the gas mileage...despite the fact that he's not getting the mpg that he was expecting. That's the power of BS.

 

Yes...he's very satisfied...but only because he's bullsh*tting himself.

 

If your theory holds true, are all of us hybrid drivers total dolts who swallow the Kool-Aid whole, while everyone else (including all the "normal" cars in the top 10 customer satisfaction ratings) independent thinkers? I hardly think so.

 

I never said they were total dolts. Most of them just want to be part of the "in crowd" and make a statement about how they "Feel like they're making a difference."

 

That's no better/worse than any other selection criteria for cars.

 

As for being independent thinkers...very few people would qualify for that label.

[moshe_levy]

We'll have to agree to disagree here, Russ. I consider myself a fairly rational guy, and I can wax poetic about the rational reasons I drive what I drive. There are many. I would wager I could make a fairly good case to an objective audience on a purely rational basis, too - and I say this in part because I've convinced no less than 5 people to buy this car. Some are artists, and some are stone cold analog electrical engineers (no emotions need apply there). Some drove Hyundais before, some came off of 15 years of BMW 7-Series (changing every few years, just because they could). One thing they all have in common - they're happy as all hell with their purchases, and apologize to nobody about them.

 

It's not for everyone, I know, but it's definitely not an irrational decision like a wild Italian sportbike or an underperforming Apple computer of years earlier. If you think it is, that's your take. To each his own.

 

Re MPGs in any sort of reasonable general discussion I would hope we agree on a single standard, say the EPA ratings. If your friend was "expecting" some figure and "getting" something else, we do not have a way to tell if his expectations were based on EPA rating, and what if anything he was doing to get different results - and taking that to the next logical step, that obviously his expectations and results might be similarly skewed with ANY car, not just a Prius. It proves nothing.

 

-MKL

 

-MKL

[Whip]

I know that urging taxation is not likely to win one a popularity contest in this crowd, but it occurs to me that the Europeans may have gotten this one right when they decided to tax vehicle fuels at a high rate years ago. Revenue issues aside, this (and other factors, including relatively old, narrow roads) encouraged a fuel-thrifty approach to design that was left up to those in the business of making cars.

 

Government messin with markets is what got us into this mess. Why would anyone want more???

 

Not to mention my house to Torrey is about the same distance as Paris to Moscow...

 

Your math no worky.....

[steve.foote]

Well, I for one, am glad that this is now settled. That said, I think it's time we shift into something more mainstream - SUV hatred.

[russell_bynum]

We'll have to agree to disagree here, Russ. I consider myself a fairly rational guy, and I can wax poetic about the rational reasons I drive what I drive. There are many. I would wager I could make a fairly good case to an objective audience on a purely rational basis, too - and I say this in part because I've convinced no less than 5 people to buy this car. Some are artists, and some are stone cold analog electrical engineers (no emotions need apply there). Some drove Hyundais before, some came off of 15 years of BMW 7-Series (changing every few years, just because they could). One thing they all have in common - they're happy as all hell with their purchases, and apologize to nobody about them.

 

You need to make up your mind, because earlier you said "In my case, it's 100% political."

 

Re MPGs in any sort of reasonable general discussion I would hope we agree on a single standard, say the EPA ratings. If your friend was "expecting" some figure and "getting" something else, we do not have a way to tell if his expectations were based on EPA rating, and what if anything he was doing to get different results - and taking that to the next logical step, that obviously his expectations and results might be similarly skewed with ANY car, not just a Prius. It proves nothing.

 

-MKL

 

-MKL

 

It proves that my friend lets his emotions not only trump logic and facts (which is OK), but completely invalidate them in his own mind (which is not OK). He heard some interview with some celeb where they said they looked at the onboard computer and it showed that they were getting 60mpg....so that's what he expected. (Nevermind that I showed him, in my bigass 4x4 pickup, the OBC showing 99.9mpg while coasting down a hill. I tried to explain that snapshot mpg numbers are worthless, it is the average that matters. But that was a rational argument which had no place in his decision-making process. Gweneth Paltrow said she got 60mpg in her Prius, so that's what Priuses get in his mind.

[russell_bynum]

Well, I for one, am glad that this is now settled. That said, I think it's time we shift into something more mainstream - SUV hatred.

 

Has anyone other than me noticed that most SUV-hating Prius drivers are former SUV drivers?

 

It's all about what's in style, man.

[Roadwolf]

Has anyone other than me noticed that most SUV-hating Prius drivers are former SUV drivers?

 

No, it's just you.

[moshe_levy]

>>>>You need to make up your mind, because earlier you said "In my case, it's 100% political."<<<<<

 

Russ, I did say that, because there is no law of logic or reason that says a political thought and a rational thought are mutually exclusive entities. *Some* political thoughts can be quite rational - such as "Getting off foreign oil sources is good for our country." It's political, and also rational - unless you think supporting King Abdullah is a good thing for us. I'd LOVE to hear some rational reasons for that one. You think he loves your "big ass 4x4" or my Prius? Which one funds his kingdom more?

 

>>>>It proves that my friend lets his emotions not only trump logic and facts (which is OK), but completely invalidate them in his own mind (which is not OK).<<<<<

 

It proves YOUR FRIEND (and he alone) was irrational, not that all hybrid drivers by extension are. Did you know that when Hummers first were sold, their JD Power customer satisfaction ratings were at the very bottom of the industry. Why? New customers reported "very poor fuel economy." Mind you, the Hummers were getting proper fuel economy as reported on the window sticker EPA Ratings. But these customers ignored what they knew was there, and then complained as if there was something wrong with the car on surveys. There was nothing wrong with their cars - there was something wrong with their minds.

 

By extension, if you are to be consistent, you would say all drivers of "big ass 4x4s" are irrational and stupid. This is not one friend mind you - this is most drivers of these vehicles, which GM had to work hard to overcome (and did by introducing tiny 5 cylinder engines in the next models, hoping to stem the tide). Rational, huh?

 

Once again: Generalizations work BOTH WAYS - they can make your case and one second later destroy it, as in this case. Your friend bases his choices on what celebs do. Doesn't mean everyone does it, and it's certainly not something that happens only with hybrid drivers - it happens across all products in all markets. OF COURSE nobody's EVER done that with, say, SUVs, right? (I mean, those product placement commercials with Arnold in his Hummers didn't motivate anyone, did they)?

 

These are softballs I'm throwing back at you, Russ. I don't see much meat in your suggestion that only the irrational would consider these vehicles.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

Has anyone other than me noticed that most SUV-hating Prius drivers are former SUV drivers? It's all about what's in style, man.

 

Ever think it could be about something more **rational** than style? Especially in the midwest region, Toyota reports most Prius owners also have an SUV which used to be the owner's primary vehicle. The owner buys the Prius as the new primary vehicle, because he knows it can carry most of what he needs for every day transportation (it is a MIDSIZE, not a compact, as was incorrected stated in another post above - see http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ for official proof, and please remember that next time you yet again repeat incorrectly that it's like a Fit or a Yaris or whatever other sub or compact econobox).

 

He keeps the SUV for towing and other larger jobs a regular car can't handle, but now puts most of his mileage on the Prius.

 

It's doesn't mean Prius drivers *hate* SUV drivers or vice versa. Knowing a few former SUV drivers who now drive Prii, I can say they feel better knowing that, on a daily basis, they emit less pollution and use less fuel than they did before. Less "cognitive dissonance" in other words. They read the paper, and conclude less pollution and less gas consumption is a good thing. I know, I know, imagine how stupid they must be for thinking such irrational thoughts, when all news points to the fact that if only we used MORE gas and emitted more CO2, "the market" would take care of it.... I love that one....

 

I ask the same question I did when we first started: There is a palpable hate directed at hybrids. We now see some of the "reasoning" behind it in this small group we have here. We saw before that otherwise intelligent people, presented with 60mpg vs. half of that, are incapable of accepting that one number is indeed larger than the other. (Rational?) And I ask again: Why are they not equally offended by the gluttonous waste of a housewife and her 1.2 kids in a 8-10 passenger vehicle which funds our enemies more than what she actually needs? One would think if hybrids are offensive for their "sanctimonious" drivers, that the gluttonous would also be offensive.

But for some reason, they are not. Why?

 

It reminds me of the argument early on, when people suggested solutions to the oil issue that were 100% supply based, 0% demand based, as though we could not consider both at the same time. I'd say it boils down to being quite "irrational."

 

-MKL

[upflying]

In an effort to provide balance, I am equally offended by the gluttonous waste of the stereotypical soccer mom with 1.2 kids in a ginormous SUV. The link below provides an example of what I am referring to. The H2 and Prius represent opposing automotive extremes. Count me out of the group of Prius haters who allegedly loves humongous SUV's. I raised two kids and managed to never own a minivan or SUV while doing so. Sensible, middle ground sedans sufficed in that role.

http://www.fuh2.com/

[Harry_Wilshusen]

If you want to sell a $40k car, it should look like a $40k car, like the original volt concept car. I thought it looked great.

 

 

The looks of the to-be-delivered volt put it in that vast group of style-free appliance cars whose names I never learn. Judging by this dudes clothes, I suspect he is the chief Volt stylist.

 

 

II'm passing on the Volt and waiting for BMWs electric Megacity car.

 

BMW MegaCity

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I'm waiting for

 

 

 

[tallman]

I know that urging taxation is not likely to win one a popularity contest in this crowd, but it occurs to me that the Europeans may have gotten this one right when they decided to tax vehicle fuels at a high rate years ago. Revenue issues aside, this (and other factors, including relatively old, narrow roads) encouraged a fuel-thrifty approach to design that was left up to those in the business of making cars.

 

Government messin with markets is what got us into this mess. Why would anyone want more???

 

Not to mention my house to Torrey is about the same distance as Paris to Moscow...

 

Your math no worky.....

 

Sure it will.

All we need to do is dissolve the Union, create 20 or 30 independent nations, set up strict border control, institute a 100% tax on gasoline, build a network of connected local service railways, dismantle the Interstate Hwy system, and abolish all vehicles bigger than a breadbox.

Eventually local dialects will produce several distinct languages, the regions that have exploitable natural resources will compete with one another, education will become an elitist aspect of Society, and best of all, Islamic terrorism will end because the Great Satan will no longer exist.

[David]

Russia's entry into the market:

 

http://brow.se.com/russianelectriccar

[russell_bynum]

Russia's entry into the market:

 

http://brow.se.com/russianelectriccar

 

Neat. 67mpg and a top speed of 80mph for less than $15K. And it appears to be what GM always lied about the Volt being...an electric car with a gas generator. Cool that it can also run the ICE on natural gas.

[moshe_levy]

Yes, I'm sure this will be a real game changer, especially when you factor in the storied history of Russian automotive engineering! After all, they gave us the Lada and Volga - not much of a leap to make a state of the art hybrid.... "Great Success!!"

 

-MKL

 

PS - There is a truly entertaining episode of Top Gear (the UK version of course, not the stupid bastardized American version) in which they test the best of the worst Russian cars. A must-see!

[russell_bynum]

Ever think it could be about something more **rational** than style? Especially in the midwest region, Toyota reports most Prius owners also have an SUV which used to be the owner's primary vehicle. The owner buys the Prius as the new primary vehicle, because he knows it can carry most of what he needs for every day transportation (it is a MIDSIZE, not a compact, as was incorrected stated in another post above - see http://www.fueleconomy.gov/ for official proof, and please remember that next time you yet again repeat incorrectly that it's like a Fit or a Yaris or whatever other sub or compact econobox).

 

LOL. OK whatever. It's a small four-seat car. Call it a compact. Call it a midsize. Call it a bacon and cheddar omelet. Doesn't change what it is.

 

I dunno about the midwest, but here in SoCal, the Prius is very much a fashion thing. Used to be...everyone had a white SUV. No idea why, but there was a time when 80% of the houses on our street had white SUV's...and they all talked about how safe they felt. Then everyone got a black BMW 3-series. Then they all got Priuses and a fog of smug descended upon the neighborhood. It was so predictable that it was comical.

 

 

I ask the same question I did when we first started: There is a palpable hate directed at hybrids. We now see some of the "reasoning" behind it in this small group we have here. We saw before that otherwise intelligent people, presented with 60mpg vs. half of that, are incapable of accepting that one number is indeed larger than the other. (Rational?)

 

LOL. For approximately the six millionth time, it isn't the cars that are the problem. They're overpriced and don't make any sense, but they're a step in the right direction and that's a good thing. It's the smug a-holes that you _often_ find behind the wheel that are the problem.

 

And I ask again: Why are they not equally offended by the gluttonous waste of a housewife and her 1.2 kids in a 8-10 passenger vehicle which funds our enemies more than what she actually needs? One would think if hybrids are offensive for their "sanctimonious" drivers, that the gluttonous would also be offensive.

But for some reason, they are not. Why?

 

Is the housewife a smug a-hole about her choice of vehicles? Back when SUV's were the "in" thing and everyone pranced around talking about how "safe" they were, I thought that was pretty stupid and annoying as well.

 

As for an 8 passenger vehicle being a waste for a family of 3.2...well...yeah. But is it more or less wasteful to have another car for when they only need to haul 3.2 people vs. the family, friends, dog, etc? And given that most of us here have grossly overpowered and hideously wasteful motorcycles, I think you'll find that only the most hypocritical among us will put up a stink about other people being wasteful.

[russell_bynum]

Yes, I'm sure this will be a real game changer, especially when you factor in the storied history of Russian automotive engineering! After all, they gave us the Lada and Volga - not much of a leap to make a state of the art hybrid.... "Great Success!!"

 

-MKL

 

PS - There is a truly entertaining episode of Top Gear (the UK version of course, not the stupid bastardized American version) in which they test the best of the worst Russian cars. A must-see!

 

Japanese cars used to suck, too.

 

I dunno if this one will be any good or not, but it's certainly interesting.

 

That was a particularly hilarious episode....though I liked the one where they all bought BL cars better. "You've just been lapped, by Captain Slow, in a Princess, full of water."

[ESokoloff]

Russia's entry into the market:

 

http://brow.se.com/russianelectriccar

 

Neat. 67mpg and a top speed of 80mph for less than $15K.....

 

What part of that propaganda do you believe?

 

Call me a skeptic. I'll wait till I see independent evaluation.

[russell_bynum]

Russia's entry into the market:

 

http://brow.se.com/russianelectriccar

 

Neat. 67mpg and a top speed of 80mph for less than $15K.....

 

What part of that propaganda do you believe?

 

Call me a skeptic. I'll wait till I see independent evaluation.

 

For sure. But it is interesting enough to get me to actually read an independent eval.

[chrisolson]

Another take ... this one says it uses natural gas or petrol to drive electric motors. No plug in or battery assist. Fuel motor runs all the time.

 

http://themoscownews.com/business/20101220/188294241.html?referfrommn

[upflying]

We Californians have an electric car seller right here in Santa Rosa.

With a range of 25 miles/top speed of 40 mph and a bargain basement price of $12,500, who needs a Volt or a Prius? Sign me up!

http://www.zapworld.com/zap-xebra-electric-sedan

[russell_bynum]

Another take ... this one says it uses natural gas or petrol to drive electric motors. No plug in or battery assist. Fuel motor runs all the time.

 

http://themoscownews.com/business/20101220/188294241.html?referfrommn

 

Hm. That's not very promising.