Hybrid Hatred (Volt related)

[moshe_levy]

All-

 

I consider this forum to be chock-full of relatively well educated people, and so perhaps the opinions I seek to uncover won’t be as prevalent here. Yet, I am searching in earnest for the root cause of what I perceive to be an honest, deep seated hatred of the move towards efficient automobiles.

 

I am closesly watching as GM unrolls the Volt, and all the promise it holds to finally put an American car company in a technological leadership position in the Hybrid / EV wars, and yet in looking at various comments on YouTube, or to online blogs, you would think that this is anathema to where the industry is so clearly headed – whether by consumer demand, by force of regulation, or more likely both.

 

Even here in this very forum, I have once in awhile mentioned my own Prius as we discuss the pure economics of riding vs. driving, and I’m surprised at the sometimes outright anger the car provokes in some people.

 

Now, naturally, I am well aware that driving an economical car is about as exciting as watching paint dry. I know people with large families or the need to haul cannot scale down. I too hate the sanctimoneous types who try to lecture others about how their car can travel a little further per gallon. I too love the sound and fury of a rip-snortin’ V8-powered sports car as much as any red blooded male does, and I don’t envision a future of bland, wimpy weeny-mobiles as any sort of automotive eutopia.

 

BUT, I do believe they have their place. I drive mine as part of a larger plan of a way to live my life, to pay as little as I can to King Abdullah even if it means I have to pay a little more for some products. I do it out of a heatfelt political belief that affecting change requires starting with yourself towards the end you’d like to see – in my case, I’d like to see this country become more efficient and less dependent on foreign petroleum, for very obvious reasons. To that end, I put my money where my mouth is, whenever possible.

 

Finally, after decades of absolutely horrid mismanagement (read Steven Rattner’s “Overhaul” if interested), pilfering by the UAW, and all the other ails which have plagued our Detroit, they seem to be catching onto the undeniable fact that product actually matters. In this case, a product like the Volt helps demonstrate that we CAN leapfrog the competition if we put our minds to it, and put our goal beyond the next quarterly statement - In other words, if we give a damn about the future.

 

It really, really baffles me why there seems to be cheerleading for it to fail – from Americans, no less, who have nothing to gain from seeing Detroit sink even further into irrelevance. Given the above contraints – what something like the Volt can and cannot do – why are otherwise intelligent people gleefully predicting its demise before the thing even has a chance?

 

-MKL

 

[Bob Palin]

PRIUS!

 

Actually I think the problem lies not so much with the car, though its performance hinders it, but with the general type of person that drives them. All too often they are to be found clogging the HOV lanes with a single person in them at 55mph, no matter what the speed limit is.

[StuGotz]

PRIUS!

 

All too often they are to be found clogging the HOV lanes with a single person in them at 55mph, no matter what the speed limit is.

 

Actually, here where I live that's usually the exception and not the rule.

 

And Moshe, you might want to check out the movie " Who killed the electric car"...

 

MB>

 

 

[steve.foote]

I don't think there is hatred for hybrids. But, there is a resistance to hybrid technology being forced upon us and the use of public money to support an industry which isn't mature enough to stand on its own. That may account for your perceptions of anomosity towards them.

 

That said, a lot of people haven't wrapped their minds around the eventual benefits of electric cars - power, performance and control beyond our wildest imagination. Imagine a performance sports car with independant four-wheel linear-electric drive capable of producing 150 horsepower per wheel with an almost flat torque curve. Once the technology arrives, there won't be anything on the planet today which it won't out perform. Same for motorcycles.

 

And, there is the rub. While the possiblities are tantilizing, the technology simply isn't here yet. Nor is the economics of it. The evolution of electric cars should be allowed to develop on a timeline which fulfills actual market demand. Trust me, when people want them, someone will manufacture them.

[EddyQ]

Moshe, I cannot get excited about any product unless it hits the public for a while. Anything else is marketing BS. So, anyone that tries to convince me that this Volt will lead the industry is just waisting there time. But that is me...

 

As for GM and Detroit in general. I feel bad for the many folks that are struggling to keep it alive and bring up families in the area. But Detroit being the "car" capitol and efforts to keep it that way doesn't make sense. I'm not saying I'd like to see them sink. I would not. But I'd really like to see some inovation that works coming from the US and it doesn't have to be a company in Detroit. I think there are US companies doing great inovative things and they are ending up in imported and domestic vehicles. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I really can't see GM overtaking the hybrid field. Look at the track record of many GM "technologies". How can folks get that excited? In the past six weeks I had a rental GM truck while my Toyota frame was getting replaced due to rust. I haven't owned a GM product since early 80's. I just couldn't believe that many of the same annoying things were still pressent with the new truck plus a bunch more. The engine was fine. It drove ok. But I couldn't wait to get my 9 year old Toyota back.

 

BTW, this Toyota has been the worst Toyota I ever had (I've had three). IMO Toyota has gradually worsened over the years with a loss of innovative things and increase of irritating things (as with the GM). Donno what my next vehicle will be.

 

I think it is great you have a hybrid. I'd like a more efficient vehicle for the same reasons as you. Back in my college days I had cars that got 35mpg. Loved them. Less gas, less oil, 4 spark plugs, simple to work on and simple to drive. BUT, I use a truck often. Hybrids have been out for quite a while now. It is time to hear about the long term impacts of the technology. Perhaps issues of disposing or replacing batteries. Maybe issues of environmental impacts of manufacturing. So far, I haven't seen earth shattering issues with hybrids. But, just like all the types of batteries, there are good ones and bad ones. Which ones will be in your next hybrid? You will never know for years after you've had it. Still an environmental risk to some extent.

[cali_beemer]

I dont hate the technology of the Prius. My issue with most prius owners and hybrid owners in general is if you ask them the question of why they bought it? The typical uninformed hybrid driver will almost always give the stand-by reason that its for the environment. I dont find hybrids the poster children for a clean environment. The reliance of batteries which by nature have a low efficiency rate and are quite possibly the worst element in a car, isnt what I consider green energy. Most prius owners wouldnt know what nickel foam is if you asked them. The typical reply is, "well it gets 60 mpg". Most have no idea what goes into the making of a hybrid, nor do they undersatand the process of recycling one. People dont look at the manufacturing process or the total energy spent from it svery beggining in manufacturing to the waste it produces on earth. People also tend to think that plugging into a wall outlet is free energy but have no idea where the electricity comes from. The majority of electricity in the US comes from coal, natural gas and nuclear....all really green sources..huh? To me the hybrid is just so hypocritical in nature. If people were really interested in saving the world, cars like the corolla and civic are much better choices. I understand that Hybrids are in their early phases of technology but dont preach to me about how your saving the earth with a hybrid. Its just more propoganda put forth by treehuggers. I am in no way protesting using technology to increase fuel economy and lower emmisions, but I am in protest of smoke and mirrors that spending more money on a hybrid is going to save the world.

 

[pbbeck]

My distaste for the Prius rests with those misinformed, "Greener-Than-Thou" owners who actually believe that their Priuses (Prii?) are saving the environment. I'm thinking about the ignorant Prius owner who asked me why I ride a gas guzzling motorcycle after I parked next to him in a parking lot.

 

Do Prius owners really think that their choice of vehicle is saving the environment? Do they know what it takes to produce the batteries in their cars? How about the disposal of said batteries after they've outlived their usefulness? And just where and how do they think electric energy is produced? With respect to pollution, hybrid cars only shift the source of pollution away from the driver. That helps the Greener-Than-Thous to sleep better at night.

 

EDIT: In two weeks, hybrid cars will no longer be able to use the HOV lanes here in CA. Those exemption stickers expire at the end of 2010.

[FlyingFinn]

Do Prius owners.... And just where and how do they think electric energy is produced? With respect to pollution, hybrid cars only shift the source of pollution away from the driver.

 

I don't know what "they" think but I think in a HYBRID car the electricity is produced right there under the hood of the car.

No polution being produced enywhere else.

Plug-in electrics are obviously a different deal but you were talking aobut hybrids.

 

In two weeks, hybrid cars will no longer be able to use the HOV lanes here in CA. Those exemption stickers expire at the end of 2010.

Wrong again. Unfortunately the exception to allow single-ocupant hybrids on the HOV lane has already been extended.

 

--

Mikko

[Groanup]

Personally, I don't "hate" hybrids...

 

I'm just holding out for something like this...

 

Honda FCX Clarity

[pbbeck]

Do Prius owners.... And just where and how do they think electric energy is produced? With respect to pollution, hybrid cars only shift the source of pollution away from the driver.

 

I don't know what "they" think but I think in a HYBRID car the electricity is produced right there under the hood of the car.

No polution being produced enywhere else.

Plug-in electrics are obviously a different deal but you were talking aobut hybrids.

 

In two weeks, hybrid cars will no longer be able to use the HOV lanes here in CA. Those exemption stickers expire at the end of 2010.

Wrong again. Unfortunately the exception to allow single-ocupant hybrids on the HOV lane has already been extended.

 

--

Mikko

 

 

Actually, the extension of CA SB 535, signed by the governor on 07/07/2010 specifically applies to full electric vehicles and those that run on natural gas. Hybrids are excluded. I'm wrong sometimes, but not this time.

 

In term of shifting the pollution source, I was thinking about battery production which admittedly I did not articulate well. Prius batteries contain nickel which is mined in Ontario, Canada. It is then shipped by good ol' fashioned dirty diesel-powered ships to China to be processed. It is then shipped again by (you guessed it) diesel-powered ship to Japan for battery production. Talk about a big "environmental footprint."

 

With respect to my electricity comment, I was referring to plug-in hybrids - which appear to be the direction this segment of the green vehicle market is moving.

 

Quoted from this article:

 

--

A study by the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency found plug-ins also could result in more sulfur dioxide (SO2) emissions. SO2 is toxic in large amounts and is a component of corrosive acid rain.

 

The Minnesota study found that use of PHEVs would lower most emissions compared with other vehicles, but that resulting SO2 emissions would be more than double those from gasoline vehicles and about three or four times greater than from driving a regular hybrid. Exactly how much depends on how far the PHEV can run on battery power alone.

 

The Minnesota study also found that PHEVs would emit more carbon dioxide (CO2) than driving a conventional hybrid. CO2 is a greenhouse gas thought to contribute to global warming.

 

The Minnesota numbers are striking because they predict the big jump in SO2 even if 40% of the state's electricity were generated by wind power, not coal or other polluting fuels. About 4% of the state's electricity now is from wind, according to state officials.

 

As for your first counterpoint, one could argue that the pollution generated by the production and disposal of hybrid cars outweighs the benefits of reduced fuel usage during the service life of the car.

--

[Twisties]

For us in the West, where inversion in valleys traps air pollution locally, creating severe impacts, use of a plug in electric offers a means to export pollution from population centers, reducing local air pollution. Similarly high mpg vehicles also provide an air quality benefit.

 

It's true that coal has got to go, and cleaner sources of electricity, especially non-greenhouse renewables, have to be phased in, but I think that change is coming and demand from plug in's will only push it. With vehicles having a ten plus year lifetime, I wouldn't assume today's electric generation profile will apply over the life of the vehicle.

 

We bought our present fleet of cages in the 2002-2003 time frame with the idea that they would be our last traditionally fueled cages. We are pleased to see that alternatives are beginning to arrive, but we're targeting out a few more years before we do any looking. So I'm only generally familiar with the current line-up.

 

Prius' 50 mpg is nice, not earth shattering, but nice. On the down side I think the batteries issues (maintenance costs and disposal), and some of the other materials issues are questionable. I might rather have an EU style high efficiency diesel (now that they run clean) with comparable mpgs. I haven't looked at the Volt.

 

I applaud these early adopters. Their investment will drive the future of more efficient transportation in the US.

 

I'd really like to see the compressed air car, and a few more alternatives show up in the US.

 

Why do some love to deride these vehicles or their owners? Makes no sense at all to me.

[pbharvey]

It really, really baffles me why there seems to be cheerleading for it to fail – from Americans, no less, who have nothing to gain from seeing Detroit sink even further into irrelevance. Given the above contraints – what something like the Volt can and cannot do – why are otherwise intelligent people gleefully predicting its demise before the thing even has a chance?

 

-MKL

 

I don't think people want the car to fail because they hate the car. I think people hate the idea of the government telling us what kind of car we want. Somehow, to me anyway, the Volt seems like its being shoved down our throat. The Tesla, however, seems more like a free enterprise deal. I could be way off but that's how I feel.

 

The Tesla is sweet looking

[Deadboy]

This little piece of info really impressed me, I mean the buyers of these cars aren't exactly in need of a subsidy:

 

The car costs about $35,000, but state and federal incentives have cut what he paid to about $22,500.

 

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/dec/13/nissan-turns-over-a-new-leaf-to-its-owner/

 

And apparently a lot of Leaf buyers are switching over from a Prius, so that it isn't exactly a big increase in the over all fleet average.

 

http://www.plugincars.com/nissan-expects-prius-owners-trade-leaf.html

 

 

Hate em? No really, just not as impressed as many of em seem to think I should be.

 

[upflying]

Hybrids cause smug.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzQBz3h5gnc&feature=related

[steve.foote]

Hybrids cause smug.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzQBz3h5gnc&feature=related

 

LOL, Southpark has a fabulous way of exposing the truth's of society. Parker and Stone should be Time Magazine's Men of the Year.

[Mike]

I don't hate hybrids, but I do have a handful of personal objections. First, given the added cost, when compared to the benefit of improved gas mileage, it just doesn't add up for me. I know it might for some, particularly when tax incentives are factored in, but not for me.

 

I'm also more than a bit peeved when I hear talk of preferred parking places, HOV access for single-rider hybrids, and the like. Again, it seems to me that it's more a matter of bending to fashion than really rewarding energy conservation. Should the guy driving a 22 mpg Escalade hybrid really be treated as an environmental hero above the gal who drives a 36 mpg Honda Civic?

 

And, in all of this, where is the consideration of the overall environmental impact, cradle-to-grave?

 

These considerations also apply, I think, to the electric-only vehicles, like the Volt. It's really stunning technology, but does it make sense for me? Or, more broadly, is the environmental impact really as positive as is touted by GM? As far as I can tell, the electrics all impose some significant cost/performance penalty. Yes, the Tesla is a rip-snorting road machine, but I've read multiple accounts of owners running out of juice in less than 100 miles. For me, that's a major failure.

 

It's great that the car companies are exploring these technologies. However, I'm not convinced that any of them really make sense for me. I'd opine that if most buyers actually examined the facts they'd come to the same conclusion.

 

The era of fossil fuel-powered vehicles will come to an end, but I am far from convinced that electric/hybrid technology is the answer. For me, at this point, it definitely is not.

[moshe_levy]

All-

 

Thank you for the feedback. I can see at first glance that a good deal of feelings both pro and con are based on an enormous amount of incorrect assumptions. To this end, some of the blame must fall to the manufacturers for failing to educate the public about the technical aspects of some of these vehicles – on the other hand, the more you advertise and treat it “like a regular car,” the less intimidating it is for consumers other than “early adopters” to consider one. I’m going to touch on a few of these, in an attempt to play devil’s advocate and keep this discussion going:

 

>>>you might want to check out the movie " Who killed the electric car"...<<<<

 

I have, and to the extent that some aspects of the movie are true, it highlights most of what is wrong with GM. However, the lead acid technology used in the EV1 doesn’t hold a candle to the newer Lithium Ion packs now being utilized.

 

>>>The evolution of electric cars should be allowed to develop on a timeline which fulfills actual market demand. Trust me, when people want them, someone will manufacture them.<<<<

There are several serious fallacies to this argument, chief among them the assumption that market timeline and product development are in synch. They are most definitely not. When gas spiked in 2007-2008, Detroit found itself with nothing to offer beyond the huge, heavy SUVs that up until then were all the market rage for nearly a decade. Overnight an external factor (fuel prices) moved consumers to fuel efficient cars which the Japanese were all too happy to provide. (Incidentally, for awhile as the spike first hit used Prii were fetching more than new ones since there was a waiting list as the gas prices spiked – supply fell well short of demand until production in Japan caught up). It takes 4-6 years to bring a new product to market, while market conditions can change dramatically in a few days. Once your customers try another brand, they may never return. That was the lesson of the last fuel crunch to Detroit, and they paid attention, thankfully.

 

>>>It is time to hear about the long term impacts of the technology.<<<

 

The info is out there for those who seek it. The first Prius went on sale in 1997 model year, so it is now a full 14 model years old. It went on sale in the US circa 2001. I’m not sure about other manufacturers, but Toyota *claims* to have a program in place with Panasonic (traction battery manufacturer) to recycle all batteries which are brought in for replacement. By the way, the traction battery carries with it an 8 year / 100k warranty. I believe in CA, it’s even more coverage by state law, something like 10 years / 150k miles – way more than the usual 3/36k powertrain warranty, so I would think the battery is the last thing you’d worry about. Beyond the recent sticking pedal recall, the car has consistently ranked on the high side of Consumer Reports and other reliability surveys, and here they’re used as Taxis in New York City, some with 200-300k on the clock in NYC no less. This, again, is a failure of the manufacturers to adequately explain the real risk of using batteries in the technology.

 

>>>People also tend to think that plugging into a wall outlet is free energy but have no idea where the electricity comes from. The majority of electricity in the US comes from coal, natural gas and nuclear....all really green sources..huh?<<<<

 

This is aimed more toward a plug in like the Volt or Leaf, less to a Prius which as of now is not a mass-produced plug in (the gas engine is used to recharge the on board traction battery seamlessly). Here we can agree and disagree together. Is coal, natural gas, or nuclear “green”? Certainly not. Going beyond environmental concerns and delving into political ones, is using homegrown energy sources like coal, natural gas, or nuclear preferable to being reliant on Middle Eastern nations for petroleum? I think there the answer is quite obvious – my main reason for supporting this technology is political, not environmental, though I can tout some environmental benefits as well.

 

>>>I think people hate the idea of the government telling us what kind of car we want.<<<<

 

Some may hate it. But some applaud the idea that as a nation, we need to change some of our habits because they have long term implications which affect all of us. I ask the crowd who is hostile towards the subsidies hybrids receive to explain exactly why keeping the status quo reliance on oil addiction from the likes of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Venezuela, and other such “friends” of ours is a defensible position. To me, it simply is not – rather, weaning us off of this is literally a matter of national security. There are good points to be made on both sides of this argument, but a sound bite type answer of “excess government involvement” is not a solution and definitely does not address the complexities of the issue.

 

>>>As far as I can tell, the electrics all impose some significant cost/performance penalty. Yes, the Tesla is a rip-snorting road machine, but I've read multiple accounts of owners running out of juice in less than 100 miles. For me, that's a major failure.<<<<

 

We are witnessing the automotive equivalent of BETAMAX / VHS wars now. Do pure Electric Vehicles (EV) like Tesla and Leaf make sense? Their range is limited, but they are more efficient than a Volt or Prius, the latter group having to lug around a 400 pound gas engine which isn’t always used. Does the Volt concept make sense, which in effect gives one range to drive on battery for about 2x the average American’s commute to work? Does the original parallel / series hybrid Prius concept make more sense than either? The market is determining that as we speak.

 

The impacts are everywhere, including that “MPG” may already be an obsolete term, replaced with “CPM” or Cents Per Mile. Driving on gas in a typical car is about 12-15 cents per mile. On pure electric given average national rates is closer to 3-5 cents per mile. Going further, even if the payoff is years in the making, I’d rather give that payoff to Chevy or Toyota or Nissan as a reward for the technology than to King Abdullah for funding more of his “activities.” Economics isn’t everything unless you’re living in a vacuum.

 

It’s a long and fascinating argument, fraught with politics, but it’s one worth having, that’s for sure!

 

-MKL

 

 

 

 

 

[plext]

Always having been one to break continuity I'll happily say that I do hate hybrids.

 

They fail at what they are supposed to do insomuch as they are not any better than any other vehicle from an ecomental point of view as pointed out many times already. As far as I am concerned they are nothing better than a great marketing exercise which on the whole amounts to a confidence trick.

 

The batteries have a short lifecycle and replacement costs are getting up there with replacement of the whole vehicle.

 

Why are they nearly always so damned ugly? If we're going to drive slowly in inprobably heavy vehicles with loss inducing power transmission methods, why can't we at least look stylish while doing so?

 

To continue with this type of powertrain is to my mind foolish and self deluding at best. Hydrogen cells and perhaps even reciprocating engines for those of us that don't really want to give them up are clearly the way forward.

 

I decry hybrids and repudiate any planet saving claims made about them.

 

Yes, yes. I'll go away and take my tablets now.

[Harry_Wilshusen]

My beef with Hybrids is the subsidies they receive. The direct taxpayer subsidy to both the manufacturer and the buyer. Since our roads are built and maintained primarily by the gas tax they receive an indirect subsidy for road usage.

 

My Beef with Hybrid OWNERS is that many of them watch the MPG display instead of the MPH display. Many times when riding with my sister I wanted to push her foot down on to the gas pedal especially when starting from a stop light. I wanted to put a "VOTE --------" bumper sticker on her car thinking that she might p--- off enough undecided voters to swing an election.

 

Harry

[Quinn]

Okay, so whatever happened to trolleys? Looks like they should be making a comeback. Maybe not the ubiquitous overhead wires, but what about in-route charging stations or charging lanes on some streets?

 

I remember the first gas crisis in the 70's with gas lines and even and odd fillup days. I remember a Black leader getting attention because he said the gas crisis was a White conspiresy because only rich White people could afford to go buy new fuel efficient cars. Poor Blacks were stuck with the old guzzlers and that was keeping them down. Guess he'd be even more upset now with the White Congress using his people's tax money to subsidize designing, building, and buying the hybrids and electrics.

 

----

 

 

[steve.foote]

 

More goodness in the form of a hybrid. Linky for drooling.

[cali_beemer]

>>>People also tend to think that plugging into a wall outlet is free energy but have no idea where the electricity comes from. The majority of electricity in the US comes from coal, natural gas and nuclear....all really green sources..huh?<<<<

 

This is aimed more toward a plug in like the Volt or Leaf, less to a Prius which as of now is not a mass-produced plug in (the gas engine is used to recharge the on board traction battery seamlessly). Here we can agree and disagree together. Is coal, natural gas, or nuclear “green”? Certainly not. Going beyond environmental concerns and delving into political ones, is using homegrown energy sources like coal, natural gas, or nuclear preferable to being reliant on Middle Eastern nations for petroleum? I think there the answer is quite obvious – my main reason for supporting this technology is political, not environmental, though I can tout some environmental benefits as well.

 

Cars like the Honda fit, Toyota corolla, Ford Fiesta and civic HX all do virtually the same thing, "politically" as most hybrids without the need to exploite low efficent batteries, and are cheaper to produce with less overall footprint on the evironment. Again, your objection simply refers to the fuel economy of a hybrid to justify it, which is a pretty standard defense mechanism by hybrid owners. As noted by others and myself, the envoronmental footprint is just a shift in pollution. You fail to look at the large picture. You state the higher fuel economy of a hybrid reduces the need for foreign oil, yet you fail to mention the transportation in the making of a NiMH battery? What does the transportation of that nickel use? Oil.....smoke and mirrors!

 

The Li-ion batteries are a huge step in hybrids but even a 2010 prius didnt fully convert to Li-ion, it still uses a main battery pack of NiMH. The technology in a hybrid is incredible, and as a mechanical engineer, I cant disclaim that. However, the way its being marketed is completely false, and the treehuggers cling to this false information and preach it as if driving a hybrid will really save the earth. I realize hybrids are an emerging technology and it has to start somewhere. Just dont try selling me a pack of lies about it being better for the environment in its current state. IMO, the false advertisement is what has really brought down the image of hybrids. Well....that and the treehugging hippies with mass amounts of liberal based bumper stickers all over them. I would post an image I have of a prius, but I am affraid it might get me banned again becasue of its political stickers.

[ragtoplvr]

How about electric motorcycles. Are they any for a reasonable price that can actually maintain 70 MPH on a moderate hill 6% grade (or face certain death from the cages) and still have an effective range of 50 miles, so my 25 mile round trip commute does not deep cycle the battery and shorten it's life. They need a bit of wind protection, I am not talking barn door, but at least like my RS. ABS brakes and some extra power to run heated gear is really nice, since I am an abs lover.

 

Rod

 

[Albert]

PRIUS!

 

Actually I think the problem lies not so much with the car, though its performance hinders it, but with the general type of person that drives them. All too often they are to be found clogging the HOV lanes with a single person in them at 55mph, no matter what the speed limit is.

 

So Bob, what's the rule on Torrey's HOV lanes? Does, for instance, a person and a goat count or do all the occupants have to be human?

[Bob Palin]

PRIUS!

 

Actually I think the problem lies not so much with the car, though its performance hinders it, but with the general type of person that drives them. All too often they are to be found clogging the HOV lanes with a single person in them at 55mph, no matter what the speed limit is.

 

So Bob, what's the rule on Torrey's HOV lanes? Does, for instance, a person and a goat count or do all the occupants have to be human?

Must have two occupants, but they can both be goats...

[azkaisr]

My company (though not the area I work in) is probably one of the main players in the turbo charger marketplace and while I hate Prius' mostly for the same reason as Bob does, it also is interesting to see that there is technology out there that is more in tune with our lifestyle.

 

A press release from our company from 12/2/2010...

 

Honeywell Gasoline Turbocharger Technology Challenging Many Top Hybrids For Better Fuel Economy

 

Turbocharged Chevrolet Cruze Eco Beats Several Hybrids and Smaller Vehicles with 42 MPG Highway

 

 

PLYMOUTH, MI – December 2, 2010 – Honeywell’s (NYSE: HON) turbocharged Chevrolet Cruze Eco engine is putting pricier—and less efficient—hybrids and other compact vehicles on notice with a best-in-class 42 mpg highway rating from the U.S. EPA. With the benefits of the turbocharged 1.4-liter engine, the fuel economy in the Cruze Eco will significantly outpace several midsized hybrid sedans in highway fuel economy ratings.

 

“Small gasoline turbocharged vehicles will play a huge role in the future of the US auto industry as automakers develop cars that meet drivers’ needs for better fuel economy, without compromising performance or price,” said Alex Ismail, President and CEO of Honeywell Transportation Systems. “The Cruze is a great example of a vehicle that refuses to compromise on fuel efficiency, affordability and fun-to-drive responsiveness.”

 

Honeywell expects penetration of turbocharged gasoline vehicles to reach up to 20 percent of all vehicles sold in the US by 2015, and expects the US market for all turbocharged vehicles to grow from nearly one million vehicles sold today to more than four million in five years. Honeywell currently provides turbocharger technology on twenty gas and diesel vehicles in the U.S. including the Ford Flex and Taurus SHO, Lincoln MKS and MKT, and a number of Audi, Mercedes and BMW models in addition to the Chevy Cruze Eco.

 

Honeywell Turbo Technologies is the leading automotive turbocharger developer in the world, and is a business unit of Honeywell Transportation Systems. As a leading automotive supplier, Honeywell Transportation Systems enhances vehicle performance, efficiency and appearance through state-of-the-art technologies.

 

Honeywell International (www.honeywell.com) is a Fortune 100 diversified technology and manufacturing leader, serving customers worldwide with aerospace products and services; control technologies for buildings, homes and industry; automotive products; turbochargers; and specialty materials. Based in Morris Township, N.J., Honeywell’s shares are traded on the New York, London, and Chicago Stock Exchanges. For more news and information on Honeywell, please visit www.honeywellnow.com.

 

This release contains forward-looking statements as defined in Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, including statements about future business operations, financial performance and market conditions. Such forward-looking statements involve risks and uncertainties inherent in business forecasts as further described in our filings under the Securities Exchange Act.

 

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Do we really need a 180hp electric assisted sedan to get groceries when 85ph would do?

 

By the way...how fast does your GS go?

[CoarsegoldKid]

This thread has gotten a bit off target as it was "Volt related". Prius shouldn't be in the conversation. If I understand the Volt hybrid the vehicle runs on electricity and charges the battery with a gasoline engine for an extended range. Plug-in is still required so it would take you two days to drive the 425 miles from Los Angeles to San Francisco. A stop at the Madonna Inn perhaps is in order. Not my cup of tea. It would make a fine daily commuter however. I don't understand why people hate them or their owners or Toyota(there I did it) hybrids for that matter. For the record my vehicles including my riding mower are gas powered. I believe electric cars have a place in today's commuter car market. They will only get better. Are they good for the environment is a common question? No doubt batteries will have to be recycled as they are on all vehicles. On the fuel side I think they are economical but maybe not in all cases. We shouldn't condemn everyone. The energy needs for producing a gas burning vehicle vs. the Volt needs to be addressed to weight the overall benefit. For instance if an owner has PV on his roof that exceeds his home's needs his vehicle is at least partially powered by the sun not by fossil fuel. The more PV the more sun powered it becomes. Is that economical? No, not now, maybe many years later it will be but it's clean energy non-the-less. You can't spend other peoples money. If it's the right thing to do for them why call them hippy tree huggers. Maybe they don't like the smell of gas stations or stepping in fuel. Maybe they don't like the looks of diesel VWs. Is owning a 40K dollar pick-up truck with a 20K camper on the bed economical when motels are nearly everywhere? No, they're not, but campers are convenient. Do you make fun of them for it? Probably you just dislike that they are impeding your passage up the two lane mountain road.

 

These Volt owners have something you don't. So what. Let them be.

[lawnchairboy]

beat me to it.

[cali_beemer]

Do we really need a 180hp electric assisted sedan to get groceries when 85ph would do?

 

By the way...how fast does your GS go?

 

+1...why do we have liter plus BMW's when there are 50cc scooters out there? Its a matter of want. Why do people have 2000+sqft houses when a 500 sqft apartment will suffice? When someone asks me why I dont drive a prius, I simply respond that when they make a 4x4 prius that can tow my boat and haul 2000+lbs, then let me know. The majority of hybrid applications in full size vehicles have been a miserable failure IMO. Ford has supposidly been working on a hydraulic hybrid that seems interesting. It forgoes the need for mass amounts of batteries and uses hydraulic accumulators to store energy which is by far more efficient than batteries. Its similar to the current workings of UPS and Fed Ex hybrids. It was scheduled to be released in 2011, but my last discussion with a Ford employee was that its being shelfed due to the economy becasue their research shows that consumers arent willing to pay more for a hybrid truck. At this point, the cost of the high pressure fittings put the cost of the system beyond a standard F-150.

 

Personally, I am bit suprised we arent seeing more diesels, or hybrid diesels.

[tobyzusa]

Last year, when I shared my sad story that I was getting a divorce after 22 years of marriage, a prominent board member here empathetically said, " Just tell me one thing, did she get the Prius"? When I answered, "Yep", he then said, "Well, it's all good then"! ....and you know who you are !

[Selden]

Turbocharged Chevrolet Cruze Eco Beats Several Hybrids and Smaller Vehicles with 42 MPG Highway.

Including the Chevy Volt.

 

I think the big selling/hating point with the Prius is that it has a distinctive look -- drive one, and you are making a statement. Drive a Ford Fusion or a Honda Civic hybrid, and nobody knows unless they look closely at the badges. At least in the urban area in which I live, most people who choose to drive a SUV also do so to make a statement, and there are many who feel hostility toward them on sight, even though a Corvette or Rolls may actually get worse gas mileage. Annoying drivers can be found in all sorts of vehicles; they're just easier to spot in a Prius or an SUV.

 

At this time, hybrids make more sense to me than plug-ins (although I would love to take a Leaf for a test drive when they are available in my area) for the same reasons others have pointed out -- the energy to move a plug-in has to come from somewhere. Electricity is not an energy source; it's a transport mechanism, as is hydrogen. What interests me most is the overall efficiency of a vehicle, where it's turbo-diesel, pure electric, or pedal powered, and that can be very difficult to calculate.

[steve.foote]

>>>The evolution of electric cars should be allowed to develop on a timeline which fulfills actual market demand. Trust me, when people want them, someone will manufacture them.<<<<

There are several serious fallacies to this argument, chief among them the assumption that market timeline and product development are in synch. They are most definitely not. When gas spiked in 2007-2008, Detroit found itself with nothing to offer beyond the huge, heavy SUVs that up until then were all the market rage for nearly a decade. Overnight an external factor (fuel prices) moved consumers to fuel efficient cars which the Japanese were all too happy to provide. (Incidentally, for awhile as the spike first hit used Prii were fetching more than new ones since there was a waiting list as the gas prices spiked – supply fell well short of demand until production in Japan caught up). It takes 4-6 years to bring a new product to market, while market conditions can change dramatically in a few days. Once your customers try another brand, they may never return. That was the lesson of the last fuel crunch to Detroit, and they paid attention, thankfully.

 

It's curious that you would use a temporary condition to illustrate why we need a permanent solution. Fossil (solar actually) fuel has returned to normalized prices since that bubble. The fears of shortages and spiraling prices never materialized beyond the initial bubble. One could argue that had we acted so rashly in response to that event we might have done great damage to an economy which was close to a large recession.

 

Nope, I stand by my comments. The market will lead the way to hybrid and electric cars (or whatever else comes along) when they eventually become in demand due to innovations in engineering and performance.

[steve.foote]

How about electric motorcycles. Are they any for a reasonable price that can actually maintain 70 MPH on a moderate hill 6% grade (or face certain death from the cages) and still have an effective range of 50 miles, so my 25 mile round trip commute does not deep cycle the battery and shorten it's life. They need a bit of wind protection, I am not talking barn door, but at least like my RS. ABS brakes and some extra power to run heated gear is really nice, since I am an abs lover.

 

Rod

 

Check out what KTM is doing with electric bikes. Link Link

 

These guys have a whole lineup. Zero Motorcycles

 

And, a bunch of others. Link

[Whip]

Last year, when I shared my sad story that I was getting a divorce after 22 years of marriage, a prominent board member here empathetically said, " Just tell me one thing, did she get the Prius"? When I answered, "Yep", he then said, "Well, it's all good then"! ....and you know who you are !

 

That is not exactly true.

 

I have the text message right here.

 

"I sure hope you made her take the Prius"

 

...and it made you laugh and that was my intent.

 

BTW....Merry Christmas my good man.

 

 

[Twisties]

>>>The evolution of electric cars should be allowed to develop on a timeline which fulfills actual market demand. Trust me, when people want them, someone will manufacture them.<<<<

There are several serious fallacies to this argument, chief among them the assumption that market timeline and product development are in synch. They are most definitely not. When gas spiked in 2007-2008, Detroit found itself with nothing to offer beyond the huge, heavy SUVs that up until then were all the market rage for nearly a decade. Overnight an external factor (fuel prices) moved consumers to fuel efficient cars which the Japanese were all too happy to provide. (Incidentally, for awhile as the spike first hit used Prii were fetching more than new ones since there was a waiting list as the gas prices spiked – supply fell well short of demand until production in Japan caught up). It takes 4-6 years to bring a new product to market, while market conditions can change dramatically in a few days. Once your customers try another brand, they may never return. That was the lesson of the last fuel crunch to Detroit, and they paid attention, thankfully.

 

It's curious that you would use a temporary condition to illustrate why we need a permanent solution. Fossil (solar actually) fuel has returned to normalized prices since that bubble. The fears of shortages and spiraling prices never materialized beyond the initial bubble. One could argue that had we acted so rashly in response to that event we might have done great damage to an economy which was close to a large recession.

 

Nope, I stand by my comments. The market will lead the way to hybrid and electric cars (or whatever else comes along) when they eventually become in demand due to innovations in engineering and performance.

 

The market can not account for social values. Incentives are appropriate as they value the advantages to society of these developments.

[ragtoplvr]

 

 

Check out what KTM is doing with electric bikes. Link Link

 

These guys have a whole lineup. Zero Motorcycles

 

Zero only goes to 50ish level ground KTM freeride only goes 47ish. Same for the motorcycle com shootout. Low top speeds. Heck down town Joplin with the 30 MPH limit, a 45MPH peak would barely be enough. On my commute on 55 MPH roads, I would be a grill ornament unless I could do 70MPH, uphill. And that may not be enough. People here are so aggressive, and it is a small town, no reason for it. Must be the lead in the environment or small d&$@ syndrome.

 

Rod

 

 

And, a bunch of others. Link

[cali_beemer]

I have the text message right here.

 

"I sure hope you made her take the Prius"

 

 

 

I have officially had my laugh for the day.....That there's funny...I dont care who you are!

[russell_bynum]

If I understand the Volt hybrid the vehicle runs on electricity and charges the battery with a gasoline engine for an extended range.

 

Not quite. GM mostly says the volt is a plug-in electric with a gasoline generator which will charge the onboard batteries. So...you can plug it in at home to charge the batteries just like a pure battery electric vehicle like the Leaf, Tesla, the old Rav4 EV, etc. Then when you drive it, as the batteries are depleted,the gasoline engine kicks on and charges the batteries. This is different than the other Hybrids on the market where the gas motor and the batteries can both drive the wheels depending on the situation.

 

As it turns out, that's not how the Volt works. The Volt's gas motor can (and does, depending on the situation) drive the wheels through a planetary gear system in addition to the electric motor....pretty much exactly like the Prius and all other existing Hybrid vehicles.

 

So, really...the Volt is just another plug-in Hybrid. I don't think that's how GM intended it to be, but that's how it turned out.

 

GM's Volt FAQ site is quite interesting if you pay attention as you read it.

[tobyzusa]

Last year, when I shared my sad story that I was getting a divorce after 22 years of marriage, a prominent board member here empathetically said, " Just tell me one thing, did she get the Prius"? When I answered, "Yep", he then said, "Well, it's all good then"! ....and you know who you are !

 

That is not exactly true.

 

I have the text message right here.

 

"I sure hope you made her take the Prius"

 

...and it made you laugh and that was my intent.

 

BTW....Merry Christmas my good man.

 

 

It made me laugh then and again now! Dang, can't one get away with a little embellishment now and then? Merry Christmas to you and Louise too, Mr. Anonymous Board Member!

[CoarsegoldKid]

 

GM's Volt FAQ site is quite interesting if you pay attention as you read it.

 

The dealer should have read the FAQ before going on TV news last night.

[steve.foote]

The market can not account for social values. Incentives are appropriate as they value the advantages to society of these developments.

 

Ummm, there really is no way to respond to that without a kitchen pass from the legal department.

[steve.foote]

 

Check out what KTM is doing with electric bikes. Link Link

 

These guys have a whole lineup. Zero Motorcycles

 

Zero only goes to 50ish level ground KTM freeride only goes 47ish. Same for the motorcycle com shootout. Low top speeds. Heck down town Joplin with the 30 MPH limit, a 45MPH peak would barely be enough. On my commute on 55 MPH roads, I would be a grill ornament unless I could do 70MPH, uphill. And that may not be enough. People here are so aggressive, and it is a small town, no reason for it. Must be the lead in the environment or small d&$@ syndrome.

 

Rod

 

 

And, a bunch of others. Link

Don't misunderstand me, these are not ready for primetime. A poster above asked where the electric MC's were.

 

That said, the KTM is the most intersting. Keep in mind, this is all 1.0 stuff. It will take several model generations before they work the kinks out. And, there is still a lot of technology to overcome. Batteries, fuel cells, ???. I keep looking for hub-drive electric's as a sign of maturity (2-wheel drive dirt bikes?). It's been done before with drive chains, but could be very practical with motors in the wheel hubs.

 

Porsche has been experiementing with them in their 911 GT3 R Hybrid front wheels to gain more power/traction in cornering. Pretty cool stuff.

[ghaverkamp]

As it turns out, that's not how the Volt works. The Volt's gas motor can (and does, depending on the situation) drive the wheels through a planetary gear system in addition to the electric motor....pretty much exactly like the Prius and all other existing Hybrid vehicles.

 

So, really...the Volt is just another plug-in Hybrid. I don't think that's how GM intended it to be, but that's how it turned out.

 

When the truth came out about that, I found that rather disappointing. What GM had been touting, and what I found most interesting about the Volt, was the notion that the fuel source would essentially be pluggable -- drive everything electrically, and it doesn't matter how you get the electricity to the car. Then, come to find out, they gave up on that. (Or never were doing that, but simply led people to believe they were.)

 

I don't think we can look at the current wave of hybrids as much more than large-scale experiments. However, I'd proffer that these experiments are incredibly useful to move us away from a transportation system that is largely dependent upon a dwindling, foreign-controlled resource. As I keep repeating, we (i.e., the U.S.) would be wise to look askance at oil not only in efforts to be cleaner, but more importantly, to remain sovereign.

 

Enviro-fundies would hate it, but I'd rather we all ran coal-charged, plug-in electrics than continue our dependence on foreign oil.

[leikam]

I was pretty enthusiastic about the Volt from early reports. I rented a Prius last year for a few days and found it just fine for around town. Assuming a competitive TCO and adequate comfort, a pure electric car would work well for my daily commute. It sounds like the car GM is delivering isn't quite the one I'd imagined but there's no reason I need a gasoline engine to get to work and back.

 

tl/dr: I like the concept, unsure about the execution.

[moshe_levy]

More good stuff, more devil’s advocate:

 

>>> Cars like the Honda fit, Toyota corolla, Ford Fiesta and civic HX all do virtually the same thing, "politically" as most hybrids without the need to exploite low efficent batteries, and are cheaper to produce with less overall footprint on the evironment. Again, your objection simply refers to the fuel economy of a hybrid to justify it, which is a pretty standard defense mechanism by hybrid owners. As noted by others and myself, the envoronmental footprint is just a shift in pollution. You fail to look at the large picture. You state the higher fuel economy of a hybrid reduces the need for foreign oil, yet you fail to mention the transportation in the making of a NiMH battery? What does the transportation of that nickel use?<<<<

 

You bring up an interesting point, which may have merit but which, as presented, is still flawed. Firstly, saying that the Fit, Civic, Fiesta, et. al. do “virtually the same thing” as a hybrid Prius or Plug in is like saying an apartment is “virtually the same thing” as a house. Those cars are getting mid-30s to low-40s on the highway, and the Prius is over 50mpg combined, while the Volt is in the triple digits on the EPA’s MPG scale. This is a substantial difference of 20-30% depending on the car, not something to gloss over. Second, the Prius is a legit midsize, not a tiny subcompact econobox that cannot fit 4 adults comfortably.

 

Third, and most importantly, some of the standard cars you listed (Fiesta especially) are sourced from multiple plants worldwide – engine from this country, suspension from that, interior from there, and so on – the very definition of a “global” car, as Ford calls it. Thus, oil is used to transport those various components to final assembly location – just like the battery in the Prius, rendering the idea of singling out hybrids for the same crime moot. Overall environmental footprint would be great to measure, but I haven’t seen any credible study that says because the nickel battery is transported, that it offsets the Prius’ stellar fuel economy – especially when similar “globally sourced” cars as you listed above are just as guilty. It would take a good deal of effort to quantify this, but on the surface, your argument doesn’t translate into something which compares one car to another, but rather one car to an ideal which doesn’t exist (all components sourced locally). Note I mention Prius here, and Volt’s EPA rating is 2.5x the Prius’, so it is even more difficult to make the case there.

 

>>> it also is interesting to see that there is technology out there that is more in tune with our lifestyle. <<<

 

Turbos certainly are taking off! I welcome any technology that increases efficiency and allows cars to stay fun. Hell, if I can drive a fast car with hybrid efficiency, I’m game! I think most others would agree.

 

>>> If I understand the Volt hybrid the vehicle runs on electricity and charges the battery with a gasoline engine for an extended range. Plug-in is still required so it would take you two days to drive the 425 miles from Los Angeles to San Francisco.<<<

 

Incorrect. The Volt runs on battery for ~40 miles and then the gas engine (generator) kicks in to allow for battery charge and DC, as well as a small amount of propulsion. Total range is well over 300 miles, just like any other car, and you can always buy more gas before plugging in next time – or, as in the case with many, never buy gas for your commute again if it’s under 40 miles.

 

>>> It's curious that you would use a temporary condition to illustrate why we need a permanent solution. Fossil (solar actually) fuel has returned to normalized prices since that bubble. The fears of shortages and spiraling prices never materialized beyond the initial bubble. One could argue that had we acted so rashly in response to that event we might have done great damage to an economy which was close to a large recession. Nope, I stand by my comments. The market will lead the way to hybrid and electric cars (or whatever else comes along) when they eventually become in demand due to innovations in engineering and performance.<<<<

 

Steve, there is no executive in any car company, including the most right wing of them, Bob Lutz himself (whom I adore, by the way) who would agree with this statement – in fact publicly, they all say the opposite. Because, as I said before, you cannot produce product on a dime. It takes years to develop, test, and launch. The only permanent solution I advocated, which every manufacturer is following, is a relentless pursuit of higher economy using new technologies. The market leads the way, correct. The writing’s on the wall that if manufacturers do not offer at least some efficient vehicles, they will be out in the cold if another spike hits, not to mention unable to comply with regulations which are growing ever more strict re economy. This means if we want to survive, we see the market 10 years down the line, like Toyota did 15 years ago, not quarter to quarter, like Detroit did (and, to a large extent, still does). In other words, you follow the market as you advocate, and lose (as Detroit has), or you Lead / MAKE the market, and are prepared for the future. The Volt, to me, is a glimmer of hope that Detroit is "getting it."

 

>>> So, really...the Volt is just another plug-in Hybrid. I don't think that's how GM intended it to be, but that's how it turned out.<<<<

 

Russ, this is a very oversimplified statement which is sort of out of context and can give the wrong impression. The Volt’s engine can provide propulsion, true, but it is nowhere near as active as, say, the series /parallel gas engine setup in the Prius. They went to extra expense to allow the gas engine to provide propulsion to the extent that it increases the efficiency of the DC drive, mostly at highway speeds. It is not nearly as active across the range, and there is really nothing like it right now in terms of range / tradeoffs. The forthcoming Prius plug-in has a range of ~13 miles, pathetic next to the Volt's claimed 40 miles.

 

I'm becoming a Volt fan, because it balances the tradeoffs of a traditional hybrid and a true EV - much higher efficiency than any existing hybrid, without the limited range of an electric - and it's American!

 

-MKL

[russell_bynum]

Russ, this is a very oversimplified statement which is sort of out of context and can give the wrong impression. The Volt’s engine can provide propulsion, true, but it is nowhere near as active as, say, the series /parallel gas engine setup in the Prius. They went to extra expense to allow the gas engine to provide propulsion to the extent that it increases the efficiency of the DC drive, mostly at highway speeds. It is not nearly as active across the range, and there is really nothing like it right now in terms of range / tradeoffs. The forthcoming Prius plug-in has a range of ~13 miles, pathetic next to the Volt's claimed 40 miles.

 

Prius and other existing Hybrids: electric motor to power the wheels. Gas motor to power the wheels and charge the batteries.

Volt: electric motor to power the wheels. Gas motor to power the wheels and charge the batteries.

 

That's pretty much the same.

 

I agree the Volt does it better (or...is supposed to do it better...hopefully the real world will validate the manufacturer claims. I know that most Prius owners I've talked to don't get anywhere near the mpg that Toyota was saying they'd get. For example: I don't know a single one that is averaging 50mpg as you claimed.) but it's still pretty much the same thing.

 

Don't get me wrong...It's an interesting car and I've got a friend who will be getting his fairly soon (he's got his VIN already) and I'll be very interested to see how it does relative to the marketing claims.

 

But I was pretty disappointed that the real Volt doesn't do what they've been saying it will do for all of these years. If they're willing to lie about something really basic like that, what else are they being dishonest about?

[lawnchairboy]

Steve, you can't get the hall pass for what you want to say, but I bet I would have enjoyed reading it.

 

 

Enviro-fundies would hate it, but I'd rather we all ran coal-charged, plug-in electrics than continue our dependence on foreign oil.

 

I agree.

 

[StuGotz]

Predictable responses from all the usual suspects...

 

For the sake of argument, can we all agree we have to start somewhere? Small steps, maybe a stumble here and there..

 

Don't worry folks, Uncle Sam doesn't want you out of your dino-cage yet. Big oil still has some money to make.

 

What's great is that your kids will look at this thread in 50 years and laugh their asses off...

 

MB>

[David13]

I like Prius.

What I think to be a pathetic waste of 4 cylinders, is a v8.

Power? To race? Where, up to the next stoplight, then stomp on the brakes?

Here the Prius drive way too fast. It would be nice if any of them ever did just 55. I have never seen it here.

I think I would have to be an idiot to stereotype the "Prius driver".

They probably are as different as any other group. Just a little more intelligent.

And less wasteful.

What about all the monster pick ups, and suvs with lousy gas mileage, and one person in them, clogging up the roads, and polluting the air.

That's the smart way to go?

I disagree.

dc