Hybrid Hatred (Volt related)

[Selden]

Seems to me that while putting it in a small platform like the Cooper is useful, it would be more practical to work it into larger vehicles to gain a toehold. City buses or gargage trucks aren't that necessarily concerned about excess weight or bulk and lots of reliability testing, proving, and data collection could be done with technology in early phases given the relative size of the vehicles and the opportunities to hide pieces of sub-optimally sized equipment.

Something like these?

• Electric Port Trucks
  
• Electric Refuse Trucks
  
• Electric Delivery Trucks
  

[markgoodrich]

...I think those of us who can afford to should step up and be beta testers for the various technologies which we've seen and will be seeing...

...but, as I said, I see an obligation to beta test, to get the vehicles out there, see how they work, let others see they work...

 

I suspect you would have felt very differently if your Camry or Prius had turned out to be a total POS.

 

Around thirty years ago, American manufacturers and drivers were beta testing diesel engines for passenger cars. Did you happen to beta-test one of those?

 

Probably would've been bummed if it had turned out to be a "total POS," but it isn't; works like a car.

 

I have a good friend who is 'beta testing' one of the VW blutec diesels. It seems to be good, too, although I think it's been to the shop a couple times for glitchings. It's not very comfortable...a Jetta wagon.

[markgoodrich]

I have a question for those participating in this thread who rail against "sanctimonious" and "holier than thou" hybridians. How did you arrive at that information? And the corollary is, why do you care so much about what other people drive, and why?

 

 

[russell_bynum]

I have a question for those participating in this thread who rail against "sanctimonious" and "holier than thou" hybridians. How did you arrive at that information? And the corollary is, why do you care so much about what other people drive, and why?

 

 

I could care less what other people drive. I'm just sick of people jabbering about it and thinking that driving a Prius makes them Jesus Christ, and I'm sick of the pieces of crap clogging up the carpool lane. Any time we're in the carpool lane (as a legitimate carpool, not a government-subsidized feel-good kumbayafest) and it's going way too slow for no apparent reason, we play the "What color?" game. As in "What color Prius is causing this slowdown?"

[Whip]

I have a question for those participating in this thread who rail against "sanctimonious" and "holier than thou" hybridians. How did you arrive at that information? And the corollary is, why do you care so much about what other people drive, and why?

 

 

...and why do you care what others think about you or what you drive?

 

I don't care about what you think of me for owning a Suburban and a F150.

 

Who cares, we ride motorcycles. Most of the world thinks we are risking our lives unnecessarily.

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul Mihalka]

I don't hate or critisize hybrids and hybrid users, but I agree that simply what works best and is the most economical will prosper. With extremely few exceptions (Ken H. and Moshe Levy comes to mind) nobody cares about saving the planet, and there are doubts whether we are saving it and does it really need saving. Now flame proof shirt on: Everybody cares about their wallet. The only way to increase the use of less energy consuming vehicles is increasing the price of the fuel. The USA federal gas tax is 18.4c/gal. and has increased at a much lower rate than the petrol industry's increase of the fuel price. The reason Europe developed economical cars and people use it, is the price of gas.Their gas is more expensive because of taxes - the price of the gas itself is the same. Also I find it odd that the tax is a fixed amount per volume, not a percentage of price. So the industry raises the price, people use less, and tax revenue goes down. Also I find it strange that tax on diesel fuel is higher than on gas. It reduces the advantage of economical diesel cars and increases the price of everything transported.

Public transport in the USA: The so dispersed population here makes it impractical except in very few places. You cannot justify it when you have 20 passengers on a 50 mile ride.

[russell_bynum]

The only way to increase the use of less energy consuming vehicles is increasing the price of the fuel.

 

Well, that's one way to do it, but we've seen what an increase in fuel price does to our economy.

 

The right way to do it is to reduce the cost of more efficient vehicles. (And not by making me pay for my neighbor's Chevy Volt...by the manufacturers getting better at making more efficient vehicles cheaper in response to market demand.

[moshe_levy]

Any time we're in the carpool lane (as a legitimate carpool, not a government-subsidized feel-good kumbayafest) and it's going way too slow for no apparent reason, we play the "What color?" game. As in "What color Prius is causing this slowdown?"

 

Hmmmm.... Guess that's a California thing. Here in NJ, any hybrid in the HOV lane is movin'. I commute about 105 miles per day most days, and I've got the points and fines to prove I for one ain't holding anybody up!

 

But if these drivers are moving slowly, that's more a reason to hate the drivers than the cars themselves, or the technology they represent. Here in NJ we generally play "what color" with the Volvo crowd. They seem to relish in setting their cruise control to 5mph under the limit in the left lane, regardless of the mayhem they cause behind and around them.

 

Come to think of it, a lifetime exposure to these drivers has made me hate Volvos, simply because Volvos remind me of these drivers. I can see how, if Prius drivers by you are this way, you'd hate Prii!

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

Incidentally, Russ, federally funded HOV lanes allow motorcycles (1 rider) to partake, in addition to hybrids. Is that too a "government-subsidized feel-good kumbayafest?"

 

-MKL

[Whip]

I don't hate or critisize hybrids and hybrid users, but I agree that simply what works best and is the most economical will prosper. With extremely few exceptions (Ken H. and Moshe Levy comes to mind) nobody cares about saving the planet, and there are doubts whether we are saving it and does it really need saving. Now flame proof shirt on: Everybody cares about their wallet. The only way to increase the use of less energy consuming vehicles is increasing the price of the fuel. The USA federal gas tax is 18.4c/gal. and has increased at a much lower rate than the petrol industry's increase of the fuel price. The reason Europe developed economical cars and people use it, is the price of gas.Their gas is more expensive because of taxes - the price of the gas itself is the same. Also I find it odd that the tax is a fixed amount per volume, not a percentage of price. So the industry raises the price, people use less, and tax revenue goes down. Also I find it strange that tax on diesel fuel is higher than on gas. It reduces the advantage of economical diesel cars and increases the price of everything transported.

Public transport in the USA: The so dispersed population here makes it impractical except in very few places. You cannot justify it when you have 20 passengers on a 50 mile ride.

 

 

Artificially inflating/deflating the price of anything just screws things up. Just look around.

 

 

It will all work out in time.

 

Gasoline/diesel has been the fuel of freedom.

 

Electricity by way of coal maybe the next step, it seems kinda wasteful to me at this time, but who knows.

 

Right now the world needs cheaper energy not more expensive.

 

...but we are stupid.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

But if these drivers are moving slowly, that's more a reason to hate the drivers than the cars themselves, or the technology they represent.

Which is what I said in the very first reply on this thread, out here in the west Prii (Priusi?) are hugely over-represented at the front of slow moving trains in the HOV lanes.

 

(Apart from in Lodi apparently)

[Quinn]

Is it possible hybrid hatred is really Government Social Engineering hatred?

 

----

 

 

[Whip]

Is it possible hybrid hatred is really Government Social Engineering hatred?

 

----

 

 

 

10-4

[CoarsegoldKid]

So I guess those business owners working hard and hiring peps to make e-cars a reality are socialists.

 

Not sure that petroleum products enjoying the feast off the government tet is what I call freedom. But it is cheaper at the pump.

[markgoodrich]

I have a question for those participating in this thread who rail against "sanctimonious" and "holier than thou" hybridians. How did you arrive at that information? And the corollary is, why do you care so much about what other people drive, and why?

 

 

...and why do you care what others think about you or what you drive?

 

I don't care about what you think of me for owning a Suburban and a F150.

 

Who cares, we ride motorcycles. Most of the world thinks we are risking our lives unnecessarily.

 

 

 

 

 

You're, right, my comments about Hummers, etc, were really no different than Bynum's. I'm ashamed of myself, thank you for tactfully pointing out my error. Whip, I don't care that you drive a Burban/pickup.

 

Moshe's point of view is exactly mine; therefore, I'll let him speak without interference from me on this issue from this point forward.

[moshe_levy]

Is it possible hybrid hatred is really Government Social Engineering hatred?

 

Only if you look at it with your eyes half closed. There is no aspect to transportation - from conception to production, from the fuel used to the roads we drive on - that isn't regulated. Foaming at the mouth about manufacturers producing hybrids because of government involvement (and again, US subsidies are NOTHING compared to Japanese and European) without acknowledging that every other aspect is far more heavily regulated - the enormous subsidies for ethanol (when we know it doesn't work), which state gets road repair money, and let's not forget bailing out GM and Chrysler - the list is literally endless.

 

For example, Mr. Whip with the Suburban... I respectfully ask: Are you just as upset about the tens of billions of taxpayer dollars used to bail out GM (exponentially more than the amount used by the US government to subsidize hybrids over the past 10 years)? Are you upset that your Suburban is exempt from meeting the standard auto-fleet MPG figures without incurring a tax (that's a subsidy, too - originally written into law decades ago when light trucks were primarily used for work - a giant freebie now for all non-commercial light trucks drivers that the rest of us car drivers pay for.) This subsidy, too, is vastly larger (last year's alone was more than the US government has spent on hybrid subsidies in the past decade). I could go on...

 

Just want to be clear, that if you throw the rock of being on the government teet, be sure not to live in a glass house.

 

-MKL

 

 

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

I should say, as well, that I did not intend that for Mr. Whip specifically (whose posts I enjoy and whose opinion I respect). I'm just pointing out that, obviously, this is not a "self reliant car guys vs. freeloading hybrid guys." That latter have received far less in subsidy than the former in most cases.

 

-MKL

[moshe_levy]

One more thing, which I neglected to address in my own posts and others'. We have now repeatedly said electricity is produced by burning coal, which obviously has a negative environmental impact. We have taken that as a given, but should not have.

 

For example here in my deregulated state of NJ () we are free to choose from a variety of energy suppliers. When this announcement was made, about 15 minutes on Google was all it took me to find a variety of companies which derive the electricity from renewable sources. I settled on this one: http://www.viridian.com/lowcostenergy/default.aspx My yearly bill is now within 3% of what it used to be from 100% dirty sources like coal, and my electricity is now 100% derived from renewable sources like wind and solar.

 

All it took was 15 minutes, from starting the search to singing up - you might check your local utility to find these options may be available to you, too. My bill's the same, and my electricity doesn't pollute. As Steve said before, a true "win-win."

 

-MKL

[Heck]

Steve, you can't get the hall pass for what you want to say, but I bet I would have enjoyed reading it.

 

Chris, it would have been a masterpiece suitable for framing. But, alas, that work of art shall forever remain hidden from view.

 

Aw just go stick it on Facebook, where everybody vents !!

[Whip]

So I guess those business owners working hard and hiring peps to make e-cars a reality are socialists.

 

Not sure that petroleum products enjoying the feast off the government tet is what I call freedom. But it is cheaper at the pump.

 

Not socialist at all, they are recipients of corporate welfare and government intervention. Which usually end up fubar. Kinda like what you see all around you in the real estate world.

 

..but it really only sucks when you don't agree with it.

 

LOL

[Quinn]

I think there's a difference between Social Engineering attempts and porkbarrel or subsidy legislation. Although I also think that the line is plenty vague at times.

 

Was the government's goal of home ownership driven by a social vision or by the mortgage industry? 401k's for society or banking industry? Other examples will probably get me censored.

 

----

 

 

[roadscholar]

I have a keen interest in a 4-wheel independant electric drive vehicle

I saw some numbers on a Cadillac like that - they were amazing. Not sure how public they were though obviously not very secret (FOAF), so I won't say more but they should be available online if they are public. (And anyway my memory of the actual numbers is not reliable)

 

Some of the most promising technology I've seen so far is the work being done at Porsche. They are solving the weight issues associated with engineering the drive motors within the wheels themselves. Once this challenge is unlocked, it can spill over to virtually any kind of torque-driven drive mechanism. The ability to instantly and precisely control the amount of torque being supplied to each wheel will create a quantum leap in performance over today's technology. That, in turn, will automatically lead to better efficiency. Again, a win-win scenerio.

 

Yes, but nothing really that new. The market must not've been quite ready for it.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche_Mixte_Hybrid

 

 

 

 

 

[Fubar]

I've been drooling over the 918 concept since I saw it 2 months ago in Automobile magazine. Rip your lips off and nearly 80 MPG? Hell yeah!

 

[russell_bynum]

I have a question for those participating in this thread who rail against "sanctimonious" and "holier than thou" hybridians. How did you arrive at that information? And the corollary is, why do you care so much about what other people drive, and why?

 

 

...and why do you care what others think about you or what you drive?

 

I don't care about what you think of me for owning a Suburban and a F150.

 

Who cares, we ride motorcycles. Most of the world thinks we are risking our lives unnecessarily.

 

 

 

 

 

You're, right, my comments about Hummers, etc, were really no different than Bynum's. I'm ashamed of myself, thank you for tactfully pointing out my error. Whip, I don't care that you drive a Burban/pickup.

 

Moshe's point of view is exactly mine; therefore, I'll let him speak without interference from me on this issue from this point forward.

 

Huh? What did I say?

 

I thought I was pretty clear that it was the sanctimonious douchebags who often drive Priuses (Prii?) that I have a problem with.

[Twisties]

...a system which has produced more innovations which have improved the the lives of more people than any other development system ever conceived. The free market.

 

Ok, now that's funny!

 

And, as Moshe points out, utterly ridiculous when applied to the transportation sector, in any event.

 

But in any event, this oft repeated myth has no evidence to back it up. I'm not even sure where you could find an example of a free market to study.

[Twisties]

moshe,

 

Let me lob that one back at you. Is your question one of honest query?

 

You asked why many people dislike hybrids (Prius/Volt). I answered that question. Is the S40 diesel available in the US? No. Curious how you never asked why? Why aren't we using the most economical, fuel efficient, and environmentally friendly form of internal combustion?

 

Internal combustion engines are still the most economical, reliable, and efficient method of portable power generation. Until you find an better way, we're going to continue to need them.

 

You said because subsidies were controlling technology, or some such, and I asked for the details of the subsidies and how they worked. So far nothing. I find your point hard to accept without evidence.

[Twisties]

Not socialist at all, they are recipients of corporate welfare and government intervention. Which usually end up fubar. Kinda like what you see all around you in the real estate world.

 

The myth parade continues....

[Whip]

Not socialist at all, they are recipients of corporate welfare and government intervention. Which usually end up fubar. Kinda like what you see all around you in the real estate world.

 

The myth parade continues....

 

 

Unless of course you can read, think for yourself, remember history....or in the very least visited the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village.

 

 

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Internal combustion engines are still the most economical, reliable, and efficient method of portable power generation. Until you find an better way, we're going to continue to need them.

 

You said because subsidies were controlling technology, or some such, and I asked for the details of the subsidies and how they worked. So far nothing. I find your point hard to accept without evidence.

 

Jan, I believe IT Mike's quote falls out of the realm of opinion and into refutable fact. Certainly there is no case to make that pure I/C engines are more economical than hybrids, since every hybrid version of a standard car gets better MPG, and every EV vehicle is about 5x less costly to run per mile than pure gas or diesel, even with amortization of the battery factored in. Certainly there is no case that I/C is more reliable than hybrid, either (check Consumer Reports reliability ratings or JD Power for proof). Definitely, IC is not more efficient than hybrid or electric - efficiency of even the best IC engines is quite poor, actually - around 20%.

 

But I think beneath all this is a core argument of "hybrid is NOT the be-all, end-all answer." To this, I wholeheartedly agree. We can do better, and many people like Shai Agassi are showing the way. Entire countries like Australia, Denmark, Israel, and even some states like California and Hawaii are involved in a serious effort to cut down on the cost, pollution, and (to me most importantly) political consequences of our addiction to oil.

 

I encourage anyone interested to watch Agassi's recent talk, as shown here

See if what he's saying makes sense to you, and decide for yourself.

 

-MKL

 

[Whip]

Internal combustion engines are still the most economical, reliable, and efficient method of portable power generation. Until you find an better way, we're going to continue to need them.

 

You said because subsidies were controlling technology, or some such, and I asked for the details of the subsidies and how they worked. So far nothing. I find your point hard to accept without evidence.

 

Jan, I believe IT Mike's quote falls out of the realm of opinion and into refutable fact. Certainly there is no case to make that pure I/C engines are more economical than hybrids, since every hybrid version of a standard car gets better MPG, and every EV vehicle is about 5x less costly to run per mile than pure gas or diesel, even with amortization of the battery factored in. Certainly there is no case that I/C is more reliable than hybrid, either (check Consumer Reports reliability ratings or JD Power for proof). Definitely, IC is not more efficient than hybrid or electric - efficiency of even the best IC engines is quite poor, actually - around 20%.

 

But I think beneath all this is a core argument of "hybrid is NOT the be-all, end-all answer." To this, I wholeheartedly agree. We can do better, and many people like Shai Agassi are showing the way. Entire countries like Australia, Denmark, Israel, and even some states like California and Hawaii are involved in a serious effort to cut down on the cost, pollution, and (to me most importantly) political consequences of our addiction to oil.

 

I encourage anyone interested to watch Agassi's recent talk, as shown here

See if what he's saying makes sense to you, and decide for yourself.

 

-MKL

 

Help me out here. Your not talking about the Volt....right.

 

Cause at it's current price and gas mileage it is not economical.

 

Or did I miss somethin.

 

L

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Whip-

 

We can, if you wish, use the Volt as an example. The math is not difficult, but we must (since electricity is involved) use an "average" type rate and then you can tweak based on the rates in your area. It won't make much difference, since the Volt and vehicles like it are indeed so much more economical for some buyers.

 

My father, for example, has a 20 mile round trip commute to work, but does not want a purely electric car that limits his range should he need to take the occasional long trip. So let's use a Volt and compare it to your average 25-30k sedan, like Camry.

 

Volt Price (after the evil subsidies - $7500 fed and state programs vary) - about $30,000.00

Camry price similarly equipped - about $30,000.00

 

Camry Price to run per mile (not factoring depreciation) - about 15 cents

 

Volt Price to run on electric: about 5 cents.

 

Remember, comparing the cost per mile of a gasoline car with a battery-powered vehicle is complicated by the fact that many regions here have different rates that depend on usage and time of day. Still, you will find something like 3x less cost per mile on a Volt vs typical gas sedan, and that benefit will only go up if you charge "smartly," meaning overnight when rates are low. The Volt lets you control this with your smart phone. Nifty!

 

Now, on gas, the Volt is reported at 37MPG. Pretty good, not as good as Prius but better than most gas cars.

 

Overall, the Volt is officially EPA rated at 93MPGe (electric mode) and 37 MPG (gas mode) for an EPA "combined composite" rating of 60MPG relative to all other cars (including compact cars). Meaning, for all intents and purposes, the EPA is telling you to use 60MPG in making your calculations to other more standard cars, like said Camry. If purchase price is similar, it's not difficult now to see that indeed it is more economical.

 

For people like my dad, he'll likely buy gas once or twice a year now, and so his operating cost per mile will fall significantly. For people who commute long distances on the highway each day, the "payoff" will be longer.

 

But that's only if you look at it from a purely economic view, which as I told Steve is not a valid view unless you live in a vacuum. To quote paraphrase Mastercard, it is "priceless" to me to be able to consider an American design that is clearly demonstrating a way to travel more economically, using more of our homegrown energy sources (clean, in my case as I described above) and much less of the foreign oil, while not limiting my range at all (the Volt can travel around 350 miles before it runs out of gas, same as any other car).

 

I should also mention here, GM is leasing the Volt for around $350-400 a month. This is actually less expensive than leasing most other comparable cars in its class.

 

-MKL

 

 

[David13]

I have no idea why Jeremy Clarkson* call's them'smugmobiles.'

 

You mean that pompous **s what galoots around on tv? I don't recall seeing very many on tv less smug than he.

 

And I guess what you really mean is that a good ole red blooded 'mercan is supposed to be smug about wasting as much as possible. Even if he's English.

 

*His show panders to the lowest common denominator. The latest episode they are touting, they obtain old gm cars ... and destroy them. As entertainment?

 

Maybe you are not religious. There are religious people what believe that waste is a sin. Not entertainment.

dc

[Flyer5]

My dislike with Hybrid vehicles maybe dislike is a little harsh. Mostly comes from the false sense that they are so green . The batteries cause a huge impact on the environment during manufacturing process from mining the lead to processing it . The subsidies and tax credits that come out of our pockets and probably our childrens pockets . The whole concept is just smoke and mirrors just like all the carbon credits that get passed back and forth . I drive an 04 VW Jetta diesel w 214,000 miles on it average 14gal fuel tank is between 650 -700 miles , best mileage I have driven was just over 54mpg .

What I like about the Hybrid vehicle is less foreign oil used . I am very against foreign oil which is how I entered into the business that I am in manufacturing Anthracite burning stoves . Everyone thinks coal oh how dirty . It was stated in this thread that clean coal is an oxymoron ,simply not true. There are different types of coal Anthracite being very clean.

Sorry got off subject, My opinion is if you want a Hybrid to not use foreign oil that is great. If tax credits are your deciding factor don't . It just gets tiring having my hard earned money get thrown around filling other peoples pockets . The whole Hybrid thing to me is just like another ethanol scam which dosen't really save anything it just moves things around like a shell game .I would rather see more fuel efficient diesel vehicles come to market preferably American Made.

 

Dave

[Whip]

Volt pricing and review.

 

Camry pricing and review.

 

It seems to me that after you run out of battery power the Camry is actually more efficient.

 

And cost $15,000 less....not counting the home charging station.

 

Where are the economics on this?

 

 

Not to mention pulling a trailer or road trips.

 

 

Give another ten years and a couple billion tax dollars.

 

 

 

What happen to those diesel VW Rabbits of the 70's? The ones that got 60 mpg and never broke down. They were far more efficient than these hybrids.

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Whip-

 

Not sure how you're getting to the conclusion about any of this. The Camry is not $15k less - maybe if you buy a totally base Camry with a steering wheel and 4 wheels, but nothing else. Similarly equipped to the Volt, they're about $30k.

 

In the end with the Camry you get 22MPG city, 33MPG highway. The Volt is no gas for 40 miles, 37MPG with, so 60MPG "real world" per EPA. So that's triple or double the MPG of the Camry, depending on how you compare. They cost the same to buy, or to lease - so how on earth is the Camry more efficient?

 

There is no "home charging station" with a Volt. It plugs into 120VAC. If you want to cut the charge time in half, you install a 230VAC outlet which any electrician can do, if you want. Totally optional, not necessary. So that's not a factor either.

 

Re pulling a trailer, I don't see the tow numbers on a Camry, but I don't suspect they're all that great. No fuel efficient car, Camry or Volt, is a top choice for towing anything, and the vast majority of car buyers do not ever tow.

 

Again, nobody said this was a blanket solution. Do your best to make an apples to apples comparo based on your own lifestyle, and then see if it makes sense or not. I can't get a Volt myself, for example, because it only seats 4 and I have 2 kids with a third on the way. Nevertheless for many it is a sensible choice.

 

-MKL

[Whip]

Base price on the Camry is $19k

 

Base price on the Volt after big bro rebate is $33k

 

14k buys a lot of gas

 

Without electricity they get within 4 mpg of each other.

 

Read the links above.

 

 

[roadscholar]

What happen to those diesel VW Rabbits of the 70's? The ones that got 60 mpg and never broke down. They were far more efficient than these hybrids.

 

So true. And in decades past Mercedes built a couple cars that got 40 mpg, the 190D (stick) and the '95 E300 diesel, a normally aspirated 4-valve 3500lb. luxury car that in the real world got 40mpg on the highway (I owned one, don't believe everything you read on the spec sheet). Which is to say they could do it again, and better, if they wanted.

 

I must say though, Honda and Toyota are doing a brisk business off the feel-good BS. I won't repeat it but Bynum's last post on the subject had me ROFL.

[Whip]

What happen to those diesel VW Rabbits of the 70's? The ones that got 60 mpg and never broke down. They were far more efficient than these hybrids.

 

So true. And in decades past Mercedes built a couple cars that got 40 mpg, the 190D (stick) and the '95 E300 diesel, a normally aspirated 4-valve 3500lb. luxury car that in the real world got 40mpg on the highway (I owned one, don't believe everything you read on the spec sheet). Which is to say they could do it again, and better, if they wanted.

 

I must say though, Honda and Toyota are doing a brisk business off the feel-good BS. I won't repeat it but Bynum's last post on the subject had me ROFL.

 

 

I would pay a lot of money for a Mercedes diesel SUV that got 30 MPG and could tow a trailer cross country.

 

 

[Ken H.]

I thought I was pretty clear that it was the sanctimonious douchebags who often drive Priuses (Prii?) that I have a problem with.

Now there’s a stereotype if I’ve ever seen one written.

 

Is it just even remotely possible Russell that at least some of those "douchebags" you so willingly disparage might be doing/driving the way they are because they believe it is the right thing to do?

 

[Paul Mihalka]

I think some people drive Prius etc. because for their use it makes sense. If I would have to commute into Washington DC from where I live (no closeby Metro) I would consider it. I think Moshe Levy wrote that his commute 105 miles daily. That in New Jersey. The Prius probably makes a lot of sense for his use, besides all the other reasons he has to own it.

[pbharvey]

 

I would pay a lot of money for a Mercedes diesel SUV that got 30 MPG and could tow a trailer cross country.

 

 

The ML350 with the BlueTEC diesel is rated at 18/25 mpg; tows 7200#.

 

(Oddly the ML450 Hybrid is only rated at 20/24 mpg and is only available for lease.)

[Whip]

 

I would pay a lot of money for a Mercedes diesel SUV that got 30 MPG and could tow a trailer cross country.

 

 

The ML350 with the BlueTEC diesel is rated at 18/25 mpg; tows 7200#.

 

(Oddly the ML450 Hybrid is only rated at 20/24 mpg and is only available for lease.)

 

 

18 to 25 means about 21.5 combined.

 

Our 4 X 4 Suburban gets 18 combined on gas.

 

Not enough of a difference.

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Base price on the Camry is $19k

 

Base price on the Volt after big bro rebate is $33k

 

14k buys a lot of gas

 

Without electricity they get within 4 mpg of each other.

 

Read the links above.

 

 

Whip, I think comparing the Volt "without electricity" sort of misses the point, don't you think? A little strange to compare the absolute best the Camry can do (33mpg) to the absolute worst the Volt can do (37MPG on gas) and totally just ignore the added efficiency of the DC drive?

 

And as I said before, you can't compare a base Camry to a Volt - ***comparably equipped*** they're about the same price (as you forgot to factor in state rebates, which are sometimes quite significant and can bring a Volt to well below $30k).

 

In the end, the math is pretty simple. The cars cost the same (unless we go round and round, and I tell you a moped and an RT are the same thing because both have an engine and two wheels) and one gets EPA 60MPG, the other EPA 22MPG city, EPA 33MPG highway. It does not take a math wiz to see where this goes. Is it really swallowing such a bitter pill to say, "Yeah, maybe this isn't so bad after all?"

 

-MKL

[Matts_12GS]

That all works great if you live in a place where you get the feel good rebate. If you don't, it's a more expensive smugmobile.

 

Nice math Mr. Levy, please, show your work...

[moshe_levy]

What part of my work, Matt? Fed rebate ($7500) applies to everyone everywhere in the USA. State rebates vary - look up what (if any) rebate you can get in your state. CA for example plans to offer an additional $5k once its rebate program is in place. I haven't looked up NJ for my dad because we're leasing, not buying, so to us it doesn't apply.

 

-MKL

[upflying]

I thought I was pretty clear that it was the sanctimonious douchebags who often drive Priuses (Prii?) that I have a problem with.

Now there’s a stereotype if I’ve ever seen one written.

 

Is it just even remotely possible Russell that at least some of those "douchebags" you so willingly disparage might be doing/driving the way they are because they believe it is the right thing to do?

See there Ken, you just confirmed what most of us Prius haters suspected. Believing in the right thing to do is that pompous, conceited, smuginess, holier than thou attitude that makes Prius owners so repulsive. Stereotypically speaking of course, a Prius represents a rolling, in your face statement of political correctness. It represents all the reasons why I would never buy one even though I am otherwise devoted to owning high mpg vehicles.

 

 

 

[Matts_12GS]

What part of my work, Matt? Fed rebate ($7500) applies to everyone everywhere in the USA. State rebates vary - look up what (if any) rebate you can get in your state. CA for example plans to offer an additional $5k once its rebate program is in place. I haven't looked up NJ for my dad because we're leasing, not buying, so to us it doesn't apply.

 

-MKL

show me both car stickers as you compare them.

kwh prices for jersey

show me the basis for your HONEST comparison, not your agenda, it shouldn't be that hard

[roadscholar]

 

I would pay a lot of money for a Mercedes diesel SUV that got 30 MPG and could tow a trailer cross country.

 

 

The ML350 with the BlueTEC diesel is rated at 18/25 mpg; tows 7200#.

 

(Oddly the ML450 Hybrid is only rated at 20/24 mpg and is only available for lease.)

 

 

18 to 25 means about 21.5 combined.

 

Our 4 X 4 Suburban gets 18 combined on gas.

 

Not enough of a difference.

 

 

Just did some looking, people that own the '08 3.0 CDI are getting 29.5 on the highway in the real world.

If you get one I'll buy it from you in 7 or 8 years when it's got 200,000 miles on it.

 

I used to tow a race car with an 80's MB 5 cyl. turbodiesel wagon, great tow car (the wagons had self-leveling rear suspension up to 1000 lbs.). In 1983 myself and a buddy went from Jax to Monterrey and back in a little over 4 days, towing one racecar there and another back (on an open trailer), we shut the engine off once and stayed in a motel for about 6 hours outside L.A. It got over 20mpg while doing 80 most of the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[moshe_levy]

show me both car stickers as you compare them.

kwh prices for jersey

show me the basis for your HONEST comparison, not your agenda, it shouldn't be that hard

 

You're right, it's not.

 

Re MSRP stickers just follow Whip's links to Edmunds. Pricing is there and you can add up a Camry XLE 4 cylinder to comparable levels to a Volt - $30k.

 

Re EPA MPG figures, again, right from Whip's links to Edmunds.

 

KWH prices here in NJ hover around 12 cents for most of the day, but going on that figure would be incorrect. I would imagine most people charge overnight when rates shrink to much lower levels. KWH prices vary by service provider so what goes for me may not go for my neighbor with a different service. (That, and my solar panels go up in 3 months, so soon my electricity will be practically free during the day!)

 

-MKL

[Whip]

Moshe, your a good man.

 

You have proven that to me over the years. I like reading your motorcycle articles.

 

I cannot get to your math and it doesn't matter to me.

 

I don't drive a 250 Ninja even though it would get me to work for less than my GSA.

 

I have worked hard in my life to be able to enjoy certain things. Among those things is so I can drive whatever I want. Which has included Corvettes, Chevelles, Suburbans, SS Impalas, and trucks with big blocks.

 

Maybe it is growing up in Detroit, maybe it's the capitalist in me.

 

 

Enjoy your Prius/Volt, just don't try to tell me how smart you are for driving it. The numbers don't work.

 

 

 

Happy Holidays!!!!