upflying Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The Volt got an outstanding report card from the magazine Consumer Reports. Why not buy one? I am going to check it out soon, even though I am not in the market currently. Wait until the $10,000 instant rebate starts. Link to comment
Selden Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 ...There is no fact, no study, no paper, no article, and no knowledgeable person any place on earth who would argue that the United States has anything beyond a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the amount of reserves (supply) to meet its own demand. We cannot be self sufficient, or anywhere near it, given current demand. In fact we will never be self sufficient re oil if we all drove bicycles around all day. We are too big, our industry too large, and our own supply too small. We are not blessed with oil under our feet like Saudi Arabia.... Moderator Edit for political commentary Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Selden- No side is free from sin on this. The current POTUS (as candidate) criticized the previous POTUS during the last gas crunch. No politican can do much about the price of gas, which also has very little to do with market forces, supply and demand, or any of the other usual excuses. -MKL Link to comment
Selden Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Exactly so, but that doesn't stop them from speechifying and running ads. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Oh, of course not. The public is duped every time this comes up, and as usual the can is kicked down the road. Where this season is different is on top of advertising some magic bullet solution that anyone with 1/2 a brain knows is BS, the politicians of that stripe you mentioned are actually insulting the Volt by name! I started this thread before election season. I asked why a car incites such hatred. And here we are months later, with candidates for the highest office in the American hierarchy using this car as a political football. So here is the irony of a non-solution being presented as a solution, and a solution being panned as a non-solution. It's icing on the cake this time 'round. Will the public buy it? We'll see..... -MKL Link to comment
tallman Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Can one insult a car? The real issue isn't which side is right. They both are. The real issue is why we haven't already developed high speed mass transit designed for use in a country like the USA. The real issue is why we postpone developing (not merely looking into) alternate sources of energy becasue they are out there. Many interdependent variables, of course. But we've thrown a lot of time and money at maintaining the status quo for the benefit of ?? (certainly not the american citizen). Back when we could discuss politics I linked sources that showed the true cost to the american consumer for a gallon of gas after the first gulf war. True cost was @$10/gal back then. We have been compromised for so long we allow the distraction (circus circus) of global warming to do what it was designed to do. Viable mass transit (such as 250mph trains for those wide open spaces). A more eurocentric vehicle approach. (diesels/smaller/higher mpg) User taxes for road use. Viable/affordable solar producing home units. Of course the why/why not crosses into politics and Beeg Biznuss, PACs et al, and human nature. Love the Volt idea, can't afford one, need more range too. YMMV Link to comment
upflying Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Love the Volt idea, can't afford one, need more range too. YMMV Volt has unlimited range, just fill it with gas. Link to comment
upflying Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 The real issue is why we haven't already developed high speed mass transit designed for use in a country like the USA. YMMV Ca is trying to plan high speed rail but the $100 billion price tag (up from voter approved funding of $9 billion) means this concept is circling the drain and on life support. Just dealing with the lawsuits would eat up half of the funding for this pork project. We already have high speed mass transit...airlines. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-bullet-debt-20120307,0,4656422.story Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Back when we could discuss politics I linked sources that showed the true cost to the american consumer for a gallon of gas after the first gulf war. True cost was @$10/gal back then. Yes, this issue was one I brought up somewhere way back in this thread. Negative externalities. In this case, a cost borne by the public for oil that is not reflected in the transaction price. Like the public's having to clean up the various environmental messes left behind by the oil companies. Billions. Like the price to secure and stabilize oil sources (aka "war"). Billions more. And so on. I brought this up to counter the very laughable notion that the market is at play here, and that supply and demand determine the price of oil. (Even as the Saudi Finance Minister explicitly tells us price of $100 per barrel is now required to break even on increased social spending there to prevent the so-called "Arab Spring" from blowing into Riyadh.). Supply and demand, indeed! I always picture the hysterical circle of people in this country putting down the Volt because of "subsidies," as they swill gas at artifically inflated prices to pay for Saudi subsidies and social spending over there. "...it is estimated that to balance its national budget Saudi requires an oil price of $90 a barrel." http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/16/us-saudi-oil-naimi-idUSTRE80F0SD20120116 THAT'S where your money is going. No free market here to speak of, my friends. And these jokers and clowns run around putting down the Volt because of subsidies EVs receive? Send my money to Chevy or to King Abdullah? Oh, gee, let me think hard about that one.... -MKL Link to comment
AviP Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Anytime I click on the "Active Topics" link, this thread is always on page 1. Is there such a thing as Hybrid OCD! Or maybe it's just called Moshe Syndrome. Link to comment
beemerman2k Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 ***************************************** ***************************************** Time to tone things down a bit. ***************************************** ***************************************** Holy smokes, folks, this thread has crossed the line so many places I don't know where to begin grading this paper But we need to dispense with the Obama referenced vehicles and the veiled references to presidential candidates and so on. I realize that in a vigorous debate about our nations energy policy that it's virtually impossible not to call attention to these things, but in reality: 1) we are not deciding our nations energy policy, and 2) we all have legitimate differences of opinion based upon the different ways we all read the same evidences. So we're not going to all come together here and now, so let's tone things down a bit...OK, way down :smirk: Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 B2K- Sorry if I or others have crossed the line. I started this thread not to discuss politics, but to find out why the Chevrolet Volt inspires such an outpouring of hatred from a certain segment of the population. After 21 pages, I think we can safely conclude two things: 1) The animosity expressed here, if we can take this group as a sample, is almost 100% political in nature. Ideological opposition to the car itself, or perhaps because of what it represents in some people's minds. 2) That in fact this political opposition is strongly held, often irrespective of facts on the ground (e.g., subsidies granted to other "approved" types of vehicles being OK, subsidies granted to oil companies being OK, political opportunism as a motive for using a product as a football in election season being OK, no apologies or retractions from the usual sources who rained down on the car for "starting fires" which was total BS, etc.). This has depressed me somewhat as I was more hoping for people to give more viable, even technical reasons for their dislike. The styling. Maybe the fact that it only seats 4. Skepticism about a first year American product's reliability. An opposing view to the automotive press' generally positive reception of the car. A technical discussion of why the Volt onboard generator concept is worse than, say, Toyota's series-parallel setup or inferior to pure EV like Nissan Leaf. That sort of thing. But for the most part, that didn't come. What came instead is what came instead. I am not less confused than I was at the outset as to why Americans would root for the failure of a state-of-the-art American designed, American built automobile - at the very time American manufacturing needs support the most. I suppose it's #1 above, but if that's all there is to it, it's a very sad thing in my opinion. A very sad thing, indeed. -MKL Link to comment
tallman Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Moshe, Too expensive for my daily commute distance and cost to buy. I can buy 2 vehicles over 400,000 miles and probably break even with the cost of one new Volt. Not politics, not diatribe, economics. I can't invest that much in a commuter when other options are out there for 1/2 the price. Price it comparable to a VW Jetta TDI, maybe, but still need a much longer range. I have bought 8 new GM products since 2000 and one used Ford. (2 BMW mc and sold a BMW car) Link to comment
MT Wallet Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 If you didn't expect the political backlash why did you select the Volt instead of say the Hyundai or the Ford Fusion or the Escape? I notice it's the only American car/vehicle you cite. So what did you expect? Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 If you didn't expect the political backlash why did you select the Volt instead of say the Hyundai or the Ford Fusion or the Escape? I notice it's the only American car/vehicle you cite. So what did you expect? I'm not entirely clear yet on what you're asking. I cited the Volt because it has alot of buzz around it due to its technology and configuration. And yes, because it's American. The Hyundai, Escape, et. al. are not groundbreaking in any way. They are standard hybrids (and mediocre ones, at that, which cannot compete with better standard hybrids in their respective classes). They are also not mentioned in any extraordinary way, good or bad. The Volt is a game-changing design, if it succeeds. That is why it drew my interest. The Volt is love/hate. I was trying to uncover the reasons for the hate. -MKL Link to comment
Selden Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I haven't driven one, but the Ford Fusion has gotten generally excellent road test reviews. According to the EPA, the Fusion Hybrid earns a rating of 41/36 mpg. You'd have to shop a Honda Insight or Toyota Prius to find numbers like those, but even in that set, Ford's integration of hybrid hardware is superior. Transitions between electric and gas power are very smooth, and the steering and transmission don't have as much of the lifeless feel we've experienced in the Prius and Insight. There's an EV mode that lets the Fusion be driven at speeds of up to 47 mph on battery power alone--and with a frugal right foot, you can coax almost 700 miles of driving out of a single tank of gas. I have driven a Prius, and I couldn't wait for the test drive to be over. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 The Fusion is a far superior driving experience than a Prius, no doubt. But it's not game-changing technology. It's series-parellel redux. It's nothing new. Volt and Leaf are new and will fight like VHS and Betamax as to what configuration works best for Americans. -MKL Link to comment
Ken H. Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Sorry if I or others have crossed the line. I started this thread not to discuss politics, but to find out why the Chevrolet Volt inspires such an outpouring of hatred from a certain segment of the population. To be honest with you Moshe, and believe me it pains me to type this, I don’t think the Volt is ground breaking technology. I’ve read every review, praise and criticism, from the very stogy practical minded Consumer Reports, to all the over-hyped automotive journals, to everything in between, and overwhelmingly, overall, the Volt is a disappointment. Its battery only range is almost a joke, its non-battery range economy doesn't raise the bar, its performance as a car irrespective of the new technology is nothing particularly ground breaking, and the price point is pff the chart for the segment it’s in. Bottom line - the car’s a miss. And it’s a damn shame. If GM had knocked one out of the park this thread would have had quite a different flavour. The deniers wouldn’t have had a leg to stand on. But they didn't and they do. Link to comment
upflying Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The all electric, Chinese made Coda was introduced to the press yesterday with all the splashy fanfare to go with it. I was shocked when I saw video of it. To me it looks like a 15 year old Civic or Corolla. If consumers are supposed to be weaned away from fossil-fuel vehicles, why produce something you would be embarrassed to be seen in? For $37,000, I rather choose a far more attractive used Volt or a new Prius with cash left over. Go on down to your neighborhood Coda dealer to check one out. Oh, wait there is no dealer network. http://www.codaautomotive.com/ http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/03/12/BUP01NJNS4.DTL Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted March 13, 2012 Author Share Posted March 13, 2012 To be honest with you Moshe, and believe me it pains me to type this, I dont think the Volt is ground breaking technology. Ive read every review, praise and criticism, from the very stogy practical minded Consumer Reports, to all the over-hyped automotive journals, to everything in between, and overwhelmingly, overall, the Volt is a disappointment. Its battery only range is almost a joke, its non-battery range economy doesn't raise the bar, its performance as a car irrespective of the new technology is nothing particularly ground breaking, and the price point is pff the chart for the segment its in. Ken, as you may guess I disagree. The configuration of on-board generator with DC primary drive, combining far superior efficiency vs. hybrid WITHOUT the range anxiety of pure electric is indeed unique, and is indeed groundbreaking. Indeed, the Volt IS ground breaking technology, because it's the only car of its type in the world. I also disagree the the press has been unkind to the car. It has won almost every single major award there is to win, and even won over Consumer Reports. +2011 North American Car of the Year at the 2011 North American International Auto Show. +Motor Trend 2011 Car of the Year +Automobile Magazine 2011 Automobile of the Year +MotorWeek 2011 Driver’s Choice Best of the Year +Car and Driver 10 Best for 2011 +2011 Edison Award +Highest-rated compact for 2011 J.D. Powers and Associates APEAL Study +2012 European Car of the Year +Consumer Reports rates Volt #1 in Owner Satisfaction So, again, not much I would term "disappointment" there. If anything it's hyped to death. It is not an ideal candidate for everyone. It is expensive for now (you remember $10,000.00 32" plasma TVs, don't you?) and it is limited in terms of storage capacity. But for people like my dad, who commutes mainly to work under 40 miles per day, it's perfect. He no longer buys guys, but isn't afraid of the occasional long trip where even on generator, his Volt is pushing 38mpg on gas-only. I can sing the car's praises all day, but that's not what this is about. You may object to some aspects of the car, and even be disappointed as you are. THAT'S also not what this is about. It doesn't work for you or Tim - for reasons you cite. And that's not what this is about. Neither of you express what I would term "hate." You just don't like it. What it IS about for me is why there are people who HATE the car. They hate it. Like Neil Cavuto (Google "Neil Cavuto Volt Hate" and watch any video that pops up). I'm staying away from politicians, but you know who they are. People who seem to relish in tearing down this product of American ingenuity and engineering prowess. It is them I hope to understand, to see if there is a shred of reason, or fact, or logic to their opinions. -MKL Link to comment
pbharvey Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Not Hybrid hatred, but not enough Hybrid Love to trade in their hybrid for another hybrid: hybrid owners unlikely to buy another one Link to comment
Paul Mihalka Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 I think that can be explained. Today's popular hybrids are all the same type: small family sedans. If you want to trade, it probably is because you want/need something different. If you want to stay with the same type of car, you keep what you got. Hybrid owners are economy minded, they are not looking for the latest/greatest, current hybrids are proven long-lived and reliable. One upgrade that would make sense, is going from a Prius to a Ford Fusion hybrid. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 The article is extremely flawed, and not just for the reason Paul states. Paul is correct. A growing family may not be able to fit into a midsize like Prius or Fusion, and may not want a huge SUV or truck hybrid. There are not many offerings there. Second, the article flies in the face of numerous other studies, especially Consumer Reports which has repeatedly shown Prius owners are more likely than any other car (except one) to buy another Prius. The "except one" is Volt owners, which are more likely to get another Volt than any other car CR tested and reported on. Several other studies including JD Power and of course sales data back this up. Further, and most obvious, they are citing trading from one "gas/electric" hybrid to another "gas/electric." But, in fact, many gas/electric trade-ins are to pure electric. #1 trade-in for Nissan Leaf? The Prius. And so on. This past Thursday, I attended a brunch with GM brass (including Marketing Exec Chris Perry) to discuss the Volt and its future. I am happy to say, the company seems to be taking a long range view of the technology, and plans to leverage it into other models. We saw a sneak peek of a small Volt-based SUV which will solve some of the complaints over a family-sized but efficient vehicle. I also spoke to a reporter there from the New York Times named Joe Nocera. His article about the event - an excellent one - is here http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/07/opinion/nocera-the-right-flames-the-volt.html You can guess which of the sentiments he writes about was the one I was most vocal about. In March, the Volt attained its highest monthly sales to date (way higher than Prius this early in Prius' life) and the plant which was shut down is being reopened early to supply the increased demand. Read Nocera's column. Sums it up well. -MKL Link to comment
racer7 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Count me as one who does hate the Volt and more specifically what it represents- failed govt meddling in the car bus. If GM had been allowed to go bankrupt the taxpayers wouldn't be subsidizng this pathetic excuse for a car that really only makes sense for folks who live close enough to their job to use a bicycle. 25 miles on a charge isn't even remotely impressive and $40K is nuts- it will never get paid back. And what you get for it is basically an econobox with "groundbreaking" technology. Nothing against fuel economy- I just bought a 2012 Passat turbodiesel becasue I don't do city or much suburban driving- if I did I might own a hybrid. But what's basically an overpriced gasoline fueled vehicle that gets only 38 mpg and costs $40K- no chance. GM deserves the flop this will become. Overpriced technology addressd to some miniscule part of the country's auto users is not a business plan. This is just one more in their unending list of strategic and stupid choices going back to the 1960s... Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Count me as one who does hate the Volt and more specifically what it represents- failed govt meddling in the car bus. If GM had been allowed to go bankrupt the taxpayers wouldn't be subsidizng this pathetic excuse for a car that really only makes sense for folks who live close enough to their job to use a bicycle. 25 miles on a charge isn't even remotely impressive and $40K is nuts- it will never get paid back... Well, my friend, my answer is "we'll see." Talk to me in a few years. You might be right - you might be wrong. Your take on things to me is off kilter in nearly every aspect when measured against facts. As if allowing GM to close and take with it all of Detroit's suppliers (including Ford's and Chrysler's) and having 1,000,000 more people suddenly on unemployment is a cheaper option than taking that company through managed bankruptcy? Really? On what planet? Further to the Volt, your figures are off. Way off. Actually I borrowed dad's 2011 Volt today as he's out of town. Took it home at a steady cruise on the NJTP @ 70mph (not in rush hour so I could get away with it) and managed a full 43 miles before depleting the charge. Not 25 - 43. Out of my 52 mile trip, my total average MPG for the trip was 94MPG. My Prius gets less than half of that, and your Passat gets less still. My dad, who lives 10 miles from work, hasn't bought gas in months. Breakthrough? You bet. American designed, American engineered, American built breakthrough. Just won European Car of the Year - the ONLY American car, EVER, to do that. As an American who works in manufacturing, I'm damn proud of it. -MKL Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Oh, I almost forgot. You are one of those guys who is offended by subsidies. Yet you drive a 2012 Passat. The same Passat built in Chattanooga, TN? Didn't you know that plant received $577 million in state subsidies? http://www.reliableplant.com/Read/14907/foreign-owned-auto-plants-netted-$36b-in-subsidies Offended still? Let this be known to anyone who comes up with that "subsidy" line against the Volt. Tell me what you drive, and I will show you it's subsidized. Some way, somehow, to some extent. It's not a good argument to make - it's the pot calling the kettle black. -MKL Link to comment
lawnchairboy Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 this thread has fantastic mileage Link to comment
Roadwolf Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 ding... ding... we have a winner. Link to comment
StuGotz Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Count me as one who does hate the Volt and more specifically what it represents- failed govt meddling in the car bus. C'mon man, provide some facts or solutions, not just the same old rhetoric...Hate is a big word, and how did it impact you directly? Count me in as one who wouldn't have liked the result of the failed auto industry here in the USA. Glad we meddled. I'm all for holding up jobs here in the states. Love the idea of new technology being pursued, no matter how it appears in it's infancy. Gotta start somewhere bubba. While we are talking about meddling, have any other idea's where government meddling bothers you, and it's impact on the economy? I'd be happy to hear your spin on it... MB> Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 While we are talking about meddling, have any other idea's where government meddling bothers you, and it's impact on the economy?I'd be happy to hear your spin on it... MB> No, don't go down that road. It's a sure way to get this thread closed down which would be a shame. Let's stick to the car. The politics are what they are and it's not going to change. It gotten to the point where Bob Lutz himself - about as far from liberal as humanly possible to get - has had enough trying to convince people with facts. He said as much himself, right here http://www.forbes.com/sites/boblutz/2012/03/19/i-give-up-on-correcting-the-wrong-headed-right-over-the-volt/ He's "given up." A sad thing, that this hero of any red blooded American car nut is now dealing with this nonsense as he nears the end of his storied career. The story with subsidies is this: Whatever you drive - whatever brand, whenever it was made, by whoever you want - it was subsidized. Maybe alot, maybe a little. But it's silly for the pot to call the kettle black, or to even bring it up, because in the end the facts will embarrass that argument into submission, as you can see re the Passat. The Volt was conceived in 2005-2006. The subsidies that went into effect were circa 2007. The complaining about subsidies magically started well after those dates. I told Chris Perry a nice commerical would mention these facts. A campaign to confront the stupid politics of people who root for the death of their own country's manufacturing base with plain fact. Ideology doesn't stand a chance against fact, and time WILL bear that out. In the meanwhile, if we can focus on the car itself, we will be better off. -MKL Link to comment
StuGotz Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Yeah, you're right Moshe...Didn't mean to shut down a potentially informative/educational thread... I'll take the idea's via PM. And I'll shut the door behind me. MB> Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 I'm thinking one of these days this week, I'll take a picture of the dashboard so you can see the total miles and amount of gas used. You can see my specific commute which does use gas, and how much effect that has on overall MPGs. It's all right there at a glance. Should hopefully persuade those who choose to slant the numbers to ridiculously low or outright incorrect levels in order to prove some "point" about the Volt's supposed deficiencies. -MKL Link to comment
Paul Mihalka Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 "Ideology doesn't stand a chance against fact" Moshe, I'm sorry but this is the only sentence from you I disagree with. We know from very different subjects that the priests of any ideology don't really accept any facts that are contrary to their beliefs. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Paul, Because politics is unfortunately involved, this is true for a certain segment, sure. Absolutely, it's not a blanket statement. But for the independent middle which actually engages its brain before accepting a belief and drinking the Kool Aid, I would say it holds true. I would hope it does, at least. In time, as more of these are on the road, and as friends, neighbors, and family members tell other friends, neighbors, and family members about the benefits, myths will be dispelled. That is exactly what happened with the Prius, which sold about half of what the Volt did in its first year out 12 years ago, but which today is a mainstream success, accounting for almost half of all hybrid sales total. That is exactly what has happened in my own family, and in my own neighborhood. I can see it with my own eyes. Certainly, Toyota's lousy marketing didn't help a bit. 13 years into it, many people still have no idea how Series / Parallel hybrid drive it works or why it works - a function of crappy marketing - but word of mouth spread slowly, over time, and was allowed to because Toyota took a long term view of the technology they created. The opposite of the Wall Street view of no farther than next quarter. The opposite view of the dolts who look at a brand new technology, in its infancy, and kick it just as it's developing baby legs and early adopter acceptance. The opposite of the Drudges of the world where headlines say "VOLT SOLD ONY 345 UNITS" in its first month, without ever mentioning they only MADE 345 units that month. (345 is just an example, not the real number). Same here, although to its credit GM is being just a little more aggressive than Toyota was (on its FB page, for example). It's not for everyone, of course. But when I say that I say it based on function, or on price, style, or on some other "real" factor. I do not say it based on a three ring political circus which takes place during election year and has nothing to do with reality, a circus which comes at the expense of American jobs and disparages American ingenuity, engineering, and design. A circus that roots for American industry to fail - a "self" hatred, if you will. That is the irrational hatred I'm talking about. In 22 pages of this thread, we have seen time and again what that hatred is REALLY based on. There's an example right above. What does it tell you? -MKL Link to comment
taylor1 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I just wonder if the Gov. will ever subsidies me for the $32,000. that I lost in G.M stock Link to comment
pbharvey Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Out of my 52 mile trip, my total average MPG for the trip was 94MPG. How much coal did you burn? Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 None. Our electricity to charge at work, and at home, is via solar. Whatever solar cannot provide is provided by Viridian, which is 100% renewable (at the same price as old coal suppliers). Deregulation is, in this case, a great thing! -MKL Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Sorry, forgot the link. Here it is http://www.viridian.com/ If Viridian supplies electricity in your state, you too can stop burning coal. No hit in your pocketbook, and your utility company still provides all the maintenance and billing as usual. Nothing changes, except where your supply comes from. Worth a look. -MKL Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 Sorry, forgot the link. Here it is http://www.viridian.com/ If Viridian supplies electricity in your state, you too can stop burning coal. No hit in your pocketbook, and your utility company still provides all the maintenance and billing as usual. Nothing changes, except where your supply comes from. Worth a look. -MKL Looks to be limited at this time. Perhaps their coverage will expand the future. Link to comment
Huzband Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 I MUST relate this experience. Last week I was entering Target. As I'm going through the doors, a young teenager bolts past me towards the parking lot. Just as he's behind me he stops & turns. Then he announces at the top of his voice... "Don't worry Mom, no one around here would steal a Prius!" She laughed even harder than I. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 Sorry, forgot the link. Here it is http://www.viridian.com/ If Viridian supplies electricity in your state, you too can stop burning coal. No hit in your pocketbook, and your utility company still provides all the maintenance and billing as usual. Nothing changes, except where your supply comes from. Worth a look. -MKL Looks to be limited at this time. Perhaps their coverage will expand the future. It is, unfortunately. If you scan back a few pages you will see we went over a comprehensive Motor Trend test which measured, state by state, primary energy production and just how polluting an EV would be state by state. Obviously here in NJ, where we can get 100% of our power from renewables for no extra cost, it's a no brainer. Elsewhere that is definitely not the case. Wait a minute... Did I just say something positive about NJ? Oh my God, the world must be ending.... -MKL Link to comment
racer7 Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 The way I understand RECs is that they're essentially devices that facilitate paper- based and grid supply location shifting. Using Viridian might save a little CO2 someplace else- not necessarily any where near the power user. Mostly its a govt device to promote greener power by facilitating forcing the major generators who use coal or whatever to buy from potential competitors, presumably justified by a societal benefit of better air or similar. I'd venture that the logical endpoint of this type of thinking is cap and trade- not overwhelmingly popular... I wonder what sort of renewables in NC fall in the REC-able category. For example, we've got dams to which metal companies own power rights before WWII when they were needed to make aluminum. Today, many of these small facilities are considered environmentally undesirable in their own right for the river ecosystem damage they do but the metal companies still want them just so they can sell power- not to use it themselves for any type of production or job creation. Did we ever talk about how many new power plants need to be built if everyone bought an electric car? And what would run them? As you're demonstrating, going off the grid or mostly off the grid by generating owns own power to sell if you don't want to build a battery bank is possible for those with enough skill and $ to invest, if they own the right property, but its also not very practical for about 99% of everyone. Builders in most of the country can't even sell energy efficient houses that use in ground thermal exchangers for HVAC and that's no where near as pricey. Where I live, my electric bill is about 60% of my cable TV/ISP bill- not very much economic incentive for investment with a long term ROI. The 25 miles electric range figure for the Volt I used earlier comes from 2 different automotive reviewers - 1 each at 25 and 26 miles. I have no idea why it differs from yours unless the did more stop and go- wlling to accept yours as also valid of course. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 Racer- There are many reasons people consider more efficient cars. Some do it for environmental reasons, some for moral, some for conservation, etc. I have maintained my position in this thread from the outset as 90% political. I understand your concerns re energy production, but in my view these problems are ours to deal with, and to solve. As I've been in manufacturing all my life, I have GREAT faith in American ingenuity and brainpower to solve such problems if we put our minds to it. And shifting these problems to us to solve, in my political view, is far preferrable to sending our hard earned money to unstable Middle Eastern theocracies who use the wealth we provide to them to fund the same forces which we then pay to fight on the double. (Google James Woolsey interview in Motor Trend circa 2007 - this interview singlehandedly built my position on this matter). So it is a shifty conversation to have. If you read back in this thread you will see this tactic used over and over. I present my view from a political angle, and someone comes back from an environmental one, or some other perspective. That's fine with me as I am prepared to defend these cars from ANY perspective you can name. But personally my main thrust is political, namely that any and all of the technical challenges you outline above are far easier to deal with long term than enriching the Saudis and the rest of the OPEC cartel, which is busy gouging us all right now as you read this. Self sufficiency is always a good thing, especially when you're enslaved to an enemy, not even a friend, as is the case with oil. -MKL PS - Level with me, honestly: When you lashed out at the Volt for being government subsidized, did you know that your own Passat received (what is to my knowledge) the largest state subsidy to any foreign-owned car manufacturer (the TN plant?). I'm guessing no, but I'm curious if you knew this and lashed out anyway, in which case I'd want to ask why. As I said earlier - WHATEVER you drive, it's subsidized. Someway, somehow. PPS - Another STUPID headline today on Drudge. "Ford sells ZERO electric cars in March." Ummm, that's because they're not for retail sales yet, Matt. If only his readership had the brains to read past the headlines.... Link to comment
Huzband Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 You know, Moshe, you are easily the most condescending member of this board. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 I do love you too, Danny. -MKL Link to comment
pbharvey Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 PPS - Another STUPID headline today on Drudge. "Ford sells ZERO electric cars in March." Ummm, that's because they're not for retail sales yet, Matt. If only his readership had the brains to read past the headlines.... Some of us do Ford Motor Co. sold about 12 Focus Electrics in December and January to fleet customers — and none in February and March, said Erich Merkle, a Ford spokesman. The Dearborn automaker plans a slow ramp-up as it begins production this spring for retail sales; the New York area and California are the first markets. Its sounds like they did, in fact, sell zero (to their fleet customers) in February & March even though they sold a dozen in the previous two months. It hope they sell a million of them and they run off of solar power; seriously I do. I would love to see solar technology get to where its affordable and efficient. There's an incredible amount of solar energy that goes unharnessed every day. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 Re the Drudge thing obviously I read him as well. I just don't like the misleading nature of the lines. He did the same thing with Volt when it first rolled out. "Volt sells only 347 units in March 2011!" Then you read the article and see they only MADE 347 units in March 2011. When you sell everything you make, that's not failure. (That number and Month are not accurate - just for the sake of conversation). Ford's fleet and retail sales are different. Totally different option packages, and outfitted with different trim levels. My understanding was they were ramping down fleet and ramping up retail during this two month period. I am very happy to read your last sentence. I do not expect us all to agree on everything, and I do not expect everyone to like or want efficient cars. The thread was started to understand HATRED. Drudge is guilty of this. So is Cavuto, and the rest of that ilk. They root for American manufacturers to fail, blaring false headlines to create a false impression. It is this hate which I seek to better understand. I believe if the facts are presented - and that includes the politics (ALL of these cars were designed staring 5-6 years ago. ALL of the federal and most state subsidies in place were enacted into law during the PRIOR administration, etc.) that the hatred will not be able to stand. I aim to chip away at this hatred however I can with facts and reason. -MKL Link to comment
StuGotz Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 You know, Moshe, you are easily the most condescending member of this board. Thanks Danny, I thought that was my exclusive title. MB> Link to comment
Huzband Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 I do love you too, Danny. -MKL Not the response I expected. Thanks for making me laugh out loud. Link to comment
Huzband Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 You know, Moshe, you are easily the most condescending member of this board. Thanks Danny, I thought that was my exclusive title. MB> Didn't mean to steal your thunder. Link to comment
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