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Hybrid Hatred (Volt related)


moshe_levy

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And given that most of us here have grossly overpowered and hideously wasteful motorcycles, I think you'll find that only the most hypocritical among us will put up a stink about other people being wasteful.

Zing! At least I can say that my R1100RT gets about the same gas mileage as a Prius, and is a lot more fun to drive.

 

As to the Prius being a midsize car, rather than compact, with the rear seats folded, it has about 40 cubic feet of cargo capacity vs about 57 cubic feet for a Honda Fit.

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russell_bynum
And given that most of us here have grossly overpowered and hideously wasteful motorcycles, I think you'll find that only the most hypocritical among us will put up a stink about other people being wasteful.

Zing! At least I can say that my R1100RT gets about the same gas mileage as a Prius, and is a lot more fun to drive.

 

As to the Prius being a midsize car, rather than compact, with the rear seats folded, it has about 40 cubic feet of cargo capacity vs about 57 cubic feet for a Honda Fit.

 

:grin:

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, Honda must have used Time Lord technology on the Fit.

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>>>>>Zing! At least I can say that my R1100RT gets about the same gas mileage as a Prius, and is a lot more fun to drive.<<<<

 

Hell, yeah it is more fun. But impressive for a car to be able to carry 5 people + luggage and get similar fuel economy to a 600 pound motorsickle.

 

>>>>>As to the Prius being a midsize car, rather than compact, with the rear seats folded, it has about 40 cubic feet of cargo capacity vs about 57 cubic feet for a Honda Fit.<<<<<<

 

Contrary to what Russ was saying above, size classification is not based on some flippant opinion, and you cannot call a car "whatever you want." It is factually, rationally based on quantifiable interior volume, measured in cubic feet. In terms of passenger space, the Prius is a MIDSIZE 5 Passenger vehicle with about 94 cu3 worth of passenger space and 22 cu3 of luggage space without the seats folded down.

 

For reference, Russ, a modern BMW 5-Series has about 99 cu3 worth of passenger space and 14 cu3 of luggage space. So a Prius' FIVE passengers can expect a little more room than a 3 Series, and a little less than a 5 Series. Hardly "small."

 

A Fit's figures are 91 passenger and 21 cargo, respectively.

 

Both the Fit and the Prius are examples of brilliant engineering of interior space, being deceptively small on the outside, but cavernous inside. I just bought home a Sony 55" HDTV a few weeks ago in my Prius, no problem, and laughed as they told me it wouldn't fit "in that tiny car." Yes, it does.....

 

-MKL

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russell_bynum
>>>>>Zing! At least I can say that my R1100RT gets about the same gas mileage as a Prius, and is a lot more fun to drive.<<<<

 

Hell, yeah it is more fun. But impressive for a car to be able to carry 5 people + luggage and get similar fuel economy to a 600 pound motorsickle.

 

>>>>>As to the Prius being a midsize car, rather than compact, with the rear seats folded, it has about 40 cubic feet of cargo capacity vs about 57 cubic feet for a Honda Fit.<<<<<<

 

Contrary to what Russ was saying above, size classification is not based on some flippant opinion, and you cannot call a car "whatever you want." It is factually, rationally based on quantifiable interior volume, measured in cubic feet. In terms of passenger space, the Prius is a MIDSIZE 5 Passenger vehicle with about 94 cu3 worth of passenger space and 22 cu3 of luggage space without the seats folded down.

 

For reference, Russ, a modern BMW 5-Series has about 99 cu3 worth of passenger space and 14 cu3 of luggage space. So a Prius' FIVE passengers can expect a little more room than a 3 Series, and a little less than a 5 Series. Hardly "small."

 

A Fit's figures are 91 passenger and 21 cargo, respectively.

 

Both the Fit and the Prius are examples of brilliant engineering of interior space, being deceptively small on the outside, but cavernous inside. I just bought home a Sony 55" HDTV a few weeks ago in my Prius, no problem, and laughed as they told me it wouldn't fit "in that tiny car." Yes, it does.....

 

-MKL

 

LOL. Yup...I used to have a Saturn SC2 and always amazed people with the amount of stuff I could get in there.

 

Fit vs. Prius is a classic example of what I'm talking about. They are functionally very similar. The Fit gets high 30's and the Prius gets low 40's. The Prius costs $23K and the Fit costs $15K. And the Fit is actually fairly fun to drive vs. the Prius which follows in the proud tradition of the Corolla and the Camry of being so incredibly boring that I actually lose the will to live while driving them.

 

Which is why most people who buy the Prius do it because it is in style and/or because they want to make a political/religious statement rather than because it actually makes sense or is a good car for the money (which it clearly doesn't and isn't)

 

And that's fine...it is your money. If I get to pay too much to ride an uncomfortable motorcycle with crappy range and no dealerships because it makes my hair stand on end and my spine tingle every time I grab the loud handle, you get to buy an overpriced car to make a political/religious statement.

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Fit vs. Prius is a classic example of what I'm talking about. They are functionally very similar. The Fit gets high 30's and the Prius gets low 40's. The Prius costs $23K and the Fit costs $15K. And the Fit is actually fairly fun to drive vs. the Prius which follows in the proud tradition of the Corolla and the Camry of being so incredibly boring that I actually lose the will to live while driving them.

 

Not exactly, Russ.

 

A Fit's EPA figures are 28 city, 35 highway, for EPA combined of 31 MPG. Based on the EPA's cycle of 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles and a fuel price of $ 2.98 per gallon, the Fit will burn $1,444.00 per year in gas and emit 6 tons of CO2 doing so.

 

A Prius' figures are 51 city, 48 highway, for EPA combined of 50 MPG. What's that, a 62% improvement? Nothing to gloss over, that's for sure. Based on the EPA's cycle of 45% highway, 55% city driving, 15,000 annual miles and a fuel price of $ 2.98 per gallon, the Prius will burn $894.00 per year in gas and emit 3.8 tons of CO2 doing so. What's that, a nearly 40% reduction?

 

These are not small differences. These are HUGE differences in terms of efficiency. Not to mention, the car is available with a host of bells and whistles (voice nav, ipod interface, solar roof, heated seats, LED headlights, etc. etc. that an econobox like the Fit isn't available with), and again, it's a midsize, not a compact. It's in a different class of car. It costs more, yes. For those of us who are willing to pay to immediately reduce our reliance on foreign oil, and immediately reduce our car's carbon footprint - it is a viable, rational choice.

 

I will say, having driven both, that the Fit is certainly more fun to drive than the Prius, though that is like saying Rhea Perlman is hotter than Betty White. Fun is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind with either of these cars.

 

-MKL

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Fun is not exactly the first thing that comes to mind with either of these cars.

 

-MKL

Hey, I resemble that remark. The funnest car I have ever owned was a Honda N600, 2-cylinder, 600cc (or 0.6 liter) air cooled vertical twin, 122" bumper to bumper. I stuck a 6' tree in it one Christmas (after removing the rear seat). 33 mpg city, 43mpg highway -- 40 years ago. After modding the suspension, putting in a Japan-spec camshaft and carburetor, I still remember the grin on my face when I pulled away from a 230SL Mercedes on a (downhill) exit ramp from a California freeway.

 

In comparison, the Fit is a luxo-barge. The Fit, by the way, is available with satellite nav with voice navigation; iPod interface and paddle shifters are standard with the Sport model. Heated seats would be nice, though, especially with the weather we've had this December. I was very disappointed that the $30,000 2009 Prius I test drove did not have tilt and telescope steering wheel, which is essential when one driver is 6" taller than the other. For the record, I consistently get 38mpg on the highway, but only 27mpg in Atlanta stop and go traffic.

 

Don't forget to include the environmental costs of the Prius's batteries in its impact. Somebody has to smelt the lead and nickel for the batteries, and it's not good for their health.

 

Unfortunately, there's no such thing as a free lunch in transportation technology. The best way to save gas, rubber, oil, etc., is to drive less.

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Zealots...

 

Might as well be an oil thread.

 

But, me an my big ass pick up, my old ford crossover and my two dirt bikes are comfortable as we are, paid for with cash on the secondary market...

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A 55" tv fits in a Prius.

 

Too bad I'm not a 55" tv 'cause I don't Fit.

Midsize my asphalt.

 

Only person I know who measured mpg in a Fit was averaging 37mpg.

Fortunately I don't know anyone who owns a Prius.

:/

JK Moshe.

 

We have 700,000 miles on a variety of GM vehicles in the past 15 years with no problems.

Put 120k on an '84 Camry w/no issues.

Throw in the BMW motorcycles and we have over a 1,000,000 miles in the past 20 years with no issues of significance.

A vehicle that got 50-60mpg and would allow me to get in and out of it plus carry some golf clubs and 4 people would be nice.

One of these days I'm gonna see if the PRIUS IS REDESIGNED AND i FIT IN ONE.

iF SO, i MAY HAVE TO GO VISIT rUSSELL.

:wave:

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Tim-

 

I don't know how tall you are, but really tall people (6'2"+) in my opinion would find Prius cramped. On my gen 2 model (2004-2009) there is no height adjustment on the seats. Not sure on the new models (gen 3).

 

As I mentioned earlier, I have tall coworkers in Camry and Ford Fusion hybrids, and they fit fine. They get low 40s EPA, not 50 like the Prius, but are a better fit for taller drivers and passengers. The Fusion especially is an impressive car and shows Americans can do it right if we try.

 

-MKL

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"A vehicle that got 50-60mpg and would allow me to get in and out of it plus carry some golf clubs and 4 people would be nice."

 

What you need is a golf cart... :grin: It perfectly fits your wish...

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6'2" if you take some inches off the top :/

One day I'll stop and check it out again but 2x over the years I've tried and can't even access the driver seat in the Prius.

 

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russell_bynum
6'2" if you take some inches off the top :/

One day I'll stop and check it out again but 2x over the years I've tried and can't even access the driver seat in the Prius.

 

At 6'4" I do fit in the Prius (in the front seats), but the back is really tight, (much tighter than in the last two generations of the BMW 3-series, FWIW) and if I sit in the front, the person behind me has to be a double-amputee.

 

I have no such problem with the Fit.

 

Naturally, YMMV.

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6'2" if you take some inches off the top :/

One day I'll stop and check it out again but 2x over the years I've tried and can't even access the driver seat in the Prius.

 

Yeah, I was gonna say, I'm 6'4" and while I can sit in a prius ok up front, Tim you gotta be at least 3 inches taller than I am.

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A little cutting and pasting here.....

 

Fit vs. Prius is a classic example of what I'm talking about.....The Prius costs $23K and the Fit costs $15K.....

 

.......the Fit will burn $1,444.00 per year in gas and emit 6 tons of CO2 doing so....

 

...the Prius will burn $894.00 per year in gas and emit 3.8 tons of CO2 doing so....

 

 

 

So the Prius will only save $550/year in fuel costs? At that rate, it would take over 14 years to recover the purchase premium of the Prius! :eek:

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Mark-

 

If you review this thread you will see Russ and I have covered the issue of personal economics (i.e., "breakeven point") extensively. It is not the major factor in the consideration of the purchase of a hybrid vehicle, as reported by most hybrid owners in company surveys.

 

-MKL

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russell_bynum
Mark-

 

If you review this thread you will see Russ and I have covered the issue of personal economics (i.e., "breakeven point") extensively. It is not the major factor in the consideration of the purchase of a hybrid vehicle, as reported by most hybrid owners in company surveys.

 

-MKL

 

What I find bizarre is that almost every Hybrid owner that I know states that "cost savings" was a big factor in their decision.

 

The survey results that you mentioned make sense to me. What I'm hearing from people who drive hybrids, doesn't. I dunno if maybe the only hybrid owners that I know are morons (maybe they're products of the public education system and can't do basic math? :grin: ) or what. Obviously my experience is not representative of a scientific study but I have a hard time believing that I only know the small fraction of Hybrid owners who think they're saving money. We're talking about several dozen people that I've had face-to-face conversations with and they all think they're saving money.

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Russ-

 

We seem to be getting closer to full agreement on this. I would say to the "personal economics" argument that it really depends... Let's say they were comparing a $30k hybrid to a $28k standard. Within a few years, more or less, depending on a multitude of variables, one CAN save money - especially if he plans to keep the car a long time and drive many miles with it before retiring it. Let's say he was comparing a $30k hybrid to a $15k econobox - obviously, this makes no sense to buy from the sole perspective of "saving money."

 

The surveys routinely show that most hybrid owners think as I have been saying, from a political or environmental point of view, NOT from a personal economics point of view. We are not looking to "break even" if I may speak on behalf of us for a minute...

 

If your argument was based on a point that the personal economic argument alone often doesn't play - you're right. Depends on the circumstances case by case, but there is certainly lots of room there to say in many cases, that a pro-hybrid or pro diesel or pro any added cost technological upgrade personal economics argument *alone* is weak.

 

If you want to understand the rational reasons for hybrid ownership, stop thinking of the wallet alone and start thinking "I want to get off foreign oil to the highest extent I can, from the moment I start driving my new car." Or, "I want to emit the least pollution I can as I drive, from day 1." In both cases, note there is no "breakeven" there, nor even comparison there with a standard vehicle, nor diesel for that matter since it fails miserably from a pollution standpoint as our European brethren have pointed out earlier. These are areas where undoubtedly, hybrids make a great deal of sense.

 

-MKL

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Mark-

 

If you review this thread you will see Russ and I have covered the issue of personal economics (i.e., "breakeven point") extensively. It is not the major factor in the consideration of the purchase of a hybrid vehicle, as reported by most hybrid owners in company surveys.

 

-MKL

 

I spent a good part of my morning reviewing the thread, and what I took away was that economy was indeed THE most important factor in the purchasing decision. I haven't gone back through the thread again, but I don't recall reading about the customer surveys you mention.

 

 

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I want to get off foreign oil to the highest extent I can, from the moment I start driving my new car.
I want to use up all the foreign oil, I bet it's more economical financially, environmentally and esthetically than shredding our own lands to find enough. When all theirs is gone we'll move on to whatever is next, probably electric as it will be cheaper or more desirable than digging up our oil for transportation use.
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Moshe,

Perhaps that is true with "owners" and perhaps it was the/a reason that non-owners didn't buy one.

 

I sold my '96 Impala (a car I loved to drive) for several reasons.

One being personal economy.

With my girlie Malibu I'm running regular versus premium and getting 12 mpg better overall in my usage.

 

In a couple of years I've "saved" $4,000 in fuel costs.

So my investment in the Malibu is reduced by that amount doing my personal math computationals.

In 2 more years I'll have 120k on it and probably pass it on to a daughter who drives 10 miles/day and we'll "save" the cost of her buying a car.

 

So the $8,000 gas savings, and then 5-10 years of use for a family member factored greatly in my "personal economics".

 

When time comes to get "new" wheels I may do something similar or buy a preowned model for whatever reason (fun/convertible/sport/mpg) and use it a year or so and then reload.

The initial cost of the hybrid versions (could be wrong as I've certainly not looked closely at all options) is a factor that makes it unlikely to go that route.

The extra $10-20,000 for purchase rights to a hybrid are enough to give me pause.

 

 

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Tim-

 

Everyone's decision factors are different, and I certainly respect yours. I will only tell you that there is nowhere near $10-20k "purchase rights" for a hybrid car. This is the apples to oranges comparisons (e.g., loaded Prius vs. some generic econobox) that are not really realistic and that are not actually cross-shopped in reality.

 

The actual premium is much, much less. The most "apples to apples" comparison is simply comparing a standard car with a hybrid version of the same model. Camry, Fusion, et. al. are all available in standard and hybrid guise. Sometimes it's a very small difference - under $2k, sometimes much less - especially when any available rebates are factored in.

 

You can then make your decisions and see if it works for you, but do not be discouraged by the anti-hybrid doom-and-gloom crowd which is usually very long on incorrect hype and woefully short on actual facts.

 

-MKL

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Actually if I was looking for a hybrid, the Accord(no longer made I think), Fusion, Camry, Altima models would be far more attractive than the Prius. None of those previously mentioned models have the Prius political stigma. It could also explain why the Prius outsells those other hybrid models. A Prius is instantly recognizable as a car that is "down for the struggle" and the Camry Hybrid simply blends in and disappears with it's non-hybrid cousins. No fun in that for the Green zealots.

How much is that $30,000 Prius going to be worth in 8 years when it needs to have its $4,000 battery replaced?

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>>>>>Actually if I was looking for a hybrid, the Accord(no longer made I think), Fusion, Camry, Altima models would be far more attractive than the Prius. None of those previously mentioned models have the Prius political stigma. It could also explain why the Prius outsells those other hybrid models. A Prius is instantly recognizable as a car that is "down for the struggle" and the Camry Hybrid simply blends in and disappears with it's non-hybrid cousins. No fun in that for the Green zealots.<<<<<

 

True, we're all Kool-Aid drinking, moronic, sanctimonous zealots.... Or maybe, just MAYBE, there are functional reasons. Try fitting my 17 month old's baby stroller in a hybrid sedan's trunk (many of which are smaller than the standard models' versions). How about MPGs? None of the cars you mention come within 10MPGs of a Prius. I could go on if you wish about why people pick the Prius over others.

 

What about being "down with the struggle?" How freakin' awful, to want to conserve resources, stop enriching terrorist nations, and breathe cleaner air. I realize these are just ridiculous, "irrational" positions - meaning I'd love to see a defense of how the converse is "good" or rational. Show us the way, if you can.

 

>>>>>How much is that $30,000 Prius going to be worth in 8 years when it needs to have its $4,000 battery replaced?<<<<<

 

The question has been answered already in this thread more than once. Russ may be right - saving gas for economics is truly a waste. Instead, I'd like a nickel for every time we have to repeatedly answer the same question based on pointless premises and stupid assumptions. Once again: A brand new factory battery is less than $2500 installed. Near new ones from wrecks can be had for $500. The idea that 8 years is a magic mark where replacement is required it without any merit whatsoever - none.

 

I've repeatedly asked - and NOT ONE has responded - to those of you fretting over the complication of the drivetrain, and the batteries, to show us concrete proof of poor reliability. No takers, because there's nothing to offer... By contrast I've offered you plenty of objective proof (CR, JD Power, etc. etc.). A slam dunk case, if I ever saw one. Prove me wrong.

 

-MKL

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Moshe, I believe I made it clear I was comparing the cost of a Malibu, to me, with GM discount (not that it matters because I made the model clear), to a hybrid.

Then added the cost savings, to me, over my previous (also identified claerly) car.

I said it was about MY personal economics, not "apples to apples".

Others have pointed out cost difs between models as it pertained to them.

 

Falling on the apples to apples doesn't work.

If I want to vacation in Cleveland and it costs me $400 to fly there it doesn't matter if I can fly to San Francisco for $X.

 

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Tim-

 

Sorry, I misunderstood. In your case the Malibu works.... I was merely suggesting, next time if there's interest in any model with a standard and hybrid powertrain available, to see if the hybrid makes sense then.

 

Re the new Malibu, which by the way is doing well and is a far better car than its predecessors, GM weakly pushed its "mild hybrid" version, and severely limited supply of it - perhaps in part so as not to cannibalize upcoming Volt sales? It is almost impossible to find a Malibu hybrid and its mileage is nothing to write home about.

 

-MKL

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All--

 

A happy new year to everyone! We're heading up to Canada for a little New Year's road trip, and if there's still interest we can pick this up next year. Everyone have fun and be safe!

 

-MKL

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russell_bynum
good thing we all know they are a bunch of co-opted media hacks isn't it?

 

You gotta love it when a car that doesn't exist (at least...not in any practical sense) gets number one on their list of favorites.

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You gotta love it when a car that doesn't exist (at least...not in any practical sense) gets number one on their list of favorites.

 

It's common practice for the media to obtain and test vehicles months before they're rolled out to the general public. This is the case with each and every major motorcycle or automotive media publication. The cars and bikes tested cetainly "exist" in every sense, and publication usually coincides with production release to the public.

 

I will certainly agree with Matt, though, that Fox are "media hacks."

 

-MKL

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I will certainly agree with Matt, though, that Fox are "media hacks."-MKL

 

As they all are... but that's a different thread...

 

 

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All-

 

2 more interesting little tidbits just came across my desk as I sort through my weekend's mail.

 

First, the new Consumer Reports (Feb 2011) has a short blurb on page 8 called "9 Year Old Prius Retains Its Youth." Basically, they bought and tested a 2001 first gen model with 206k on its clock, and found in conclusion "...the Prius that traveled 206,000 miles still acts like a youngster. Its expensive battery has not worn out, and its performance (MKL note: and MPGs) was similar to that of a new Prius tested 10 years ago." They then publish "acceleration" and MPG numbers then and now showing minimal changes. No squeeks, no rattles, no problems.

 

Second, the Prius just received the very prestigious TUV Gold Badge for quality from Germany's TUV agency. The Prius has the lowest defects reported from TÜV in their inspections, in the category "2-3 years old cars". That's not vs. other hybrids, but vs. ALL other cars. See

 

http://www.vdtuev.de/presse/tuevnachrichten/tuv-report-2011-die-zukunft-gewinnt/dok_view?

 

Where are all my friends who were posting here, biting their nails about "overly complicated" and impending doom due to "short lived" batteries? :lurk:

 

-MKL

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Last month, my son bought a new Camaro SS at my local Chevy dealer. While I was at the dealer, I axed if they had any Volts. Nope..and they won't get any until they have techs who are trained to work on them.

Guess they are a bit more complicated to work on.

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All-

 

2 more interesting little tidbits just came across my desk as I sort through my weekend's mail.

 

First, the new Consumer Reports (Feb 2011) has a short blurb on page 8 called "9 Year Old Prius Retains Its Youth." Basically, they bought and tested a 2001 first gen model with 206k on its clock, and found in conclusion "...the Prius that traveled 206,000 miles still acts like a youngster. Its expensive battery has not worn out, and its performance (MKL note: and MPGs) was similar to that of a new Prius tested 10 years ago." They then publish "acceleration" and MPG numbers then and now showing minimal changes. No squeeks, no rattles, no problems.

 

Second, the Prius just received the very prestigious TUV Gold Badge for quality from Germany's TUV agency. The Prius has the lowest defects reported from TÜV in their inspections, in the category "2-3 years old cars". That's not vs. other hybrids, but vs. ALL other cars. See

 

http://www.vdtuev.de/presse/tuevnachrichten/tuv-report-2011-die-zukunft-gewinnt/dok_view?

 

Where are all my friends who were posting here, biting their nails about "overly complicated" and impending doom due to "short lived" batteries? :lurk:

 

-MKL

 

Thank you Moshe for providing such an accurate rendition of where the Prius owner stereotype comes from :rofl:

 

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russell_bynum
All-

 

2 more interesting little tidbits just came across my desk as I sort through my weekend's mail.

 

First, the new Consumer Reports (Feb 2011) has a short blurb on page 8 called "9 Year Old Prius Retains Its Youth." Basically, they bought and tested a 2001 first gen model with 206k on its clock, and found in conclusion "...the Prius that traveled 206,000 miles still acts like a youngster. Its expensive battery has not worn out, and its performance (MKL note: and MPGs) was similar to that of a new Prius tested 10 years ago." They then publish "acceleration" and MPG numbers then and now showing minimal changes. No squeeks, no rattles, no problems.

 

Second, the Prius just received the very prestigious TUV Gold Badge for quality from Germany's TUV agency. The Prius has the lowest defects reported from TÜV in their inspections, in the category "2-3 years old cars". That's not vs. other hybrids, but vs. ALL other cars. See

 

http://www.vdtuev.de/presse/tuevnachrichten/tuv-report-2011-die-zukunft-gewinnt/dok_view?

 

Where are all my friends who were posting here, biting their nails about "overly complicated" and impending doom due to "short lived" batteries? :lurk:

 

-MKL

 

That's very good to hear. Toyota has become very good at making really reliable cars and it's good to hear that the Prius seems to be in that category as well.

 

I still say they're vastly over complicated. (But I'm the guy who doesn't like power steering and automatic transmissions.)

 

I'd be interested to learn more about battery failure. i.e. How often, when, and why are they failing....Including a description of the conditions of use. i.e. Is it better for the batteries to get lots of use like in a Taxi situation, or more average use like a generic family car? Does that impact the battery life? What other factors seem to impact battery life?

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Matt, what's the matter? Facts too much to swallow? When you get one, let me know.

 

Russ, I'm with you, but I think studying the Prius' nickel-metal hydride battery is yesterday's endeavor. We need now to find out how Lithium Ion type batteries will hold up, because their *immediate* performance is far better than the current Prius' nickel in terms of capacity. The only reason Toyota stubbornly sticks to nickel is they bought into the PT Inco plant where the nickel is mined and have millions tied up there. Nickel will fade into the past as Lithium takes over into the future. There is nobody except Toyota using anything else, and even Toyota is slowly abandoning nickel (Prius EV concept uses Lithium).

 

Just to give you an idea of how far battery technology has come, I will summarize here an application note I wrote for my company about how Lithium Ion batteries compare to sealed maintenance free lead acid (think the 12VDC battery in your bike or car). We offer both in my company's UPS systems for military use, and the new technology is quite exciting (just think of how it applies to vehicles):

 

ADVANTAGES OF OPTIONAL LITHIUM ION PHOSPHATE BATTERIES IN NOVA UPS SYSTEMS

 

 

Unless otherwise noted, Nova Electric UPSs utilize sealed, maintenance-free lead acid batteries. For many years, these batteries have offered the only field proven, safe, and readily available technology suitable for the harsh environments our products are routinely exposed to. Such batteries are offered in both standard and premium versions, the latter featuring extended operation / storage temperature ranges, longer expected life, and increased resistance to high shock and vibration.

 

However, with the advent of exciting new battery technologies in recent times, Nova Electric is now offering Lithium Ion Phosphate batteries optionally on select models, bearing the “LiFe” suffix on the model designations. After thousands of hours of research and development, as well as extensive field trials, our customers can now benefit from a battery that combines the safety of traditional sealed lead-acid technology with the power of Lithium Ion.

 

Some advantages of the Lithium Ion Phosphate batteries are listed below for reference:

 

4X higher energy density than lead-acid battery: The gravimetric energy density of the LiFePO4 battery is ~130 Wh/kg, almost four times higher than that of a typical Lead-acid battery, at 35Wh/kg. For the UPS user, this means far greater run times while running on battery, without any space penalty.

 

Light Weight: Despite the vastly higher energy density, the LiFePO4 battery packs are, in most cases, only 1/3 the weight of conventional lead acid packs. So for applications where weight savings are critical, the use of LiFePO4 batteries can result in significant reductions in overall system weight.

 

Long Life: LiFePO4 battery packs typically achieve a minimum of 2000 cycles with 70% capacity remaining, with up to 5000 cycle potential. This is equivalent to the 8-12 year expected life the very best sealed, lead acid batteries offer. Further, LiFePO4 batteries do not suffer from the “memory effect” of some conventional lead acid batteries.

 

Better Voltage Regulation: Unlike the Lead acid battery, the LiFePO4 battery terminal voltage remains relatively constant during high rate discharge. This equates to much better performance during high rate (short time period) discharges, yielding a much better AH performance during this type of application, typical in UPS systems.

 

Wide Temp Range: LiFePO4 battery packs are typically sold for operation between -20°C to +60°C, charging between -10°C to +60°C, and storage between -40°C to +70°C. This is equivalent to the ranges that only premium sealed, lead acid batteries offer.

 

Safety with power: Safety is equivalent to or better than the traditional lead acid type, without the risk of explosion or fire outbreak associated with some other new battery technologies. The LiFePO4 battery has hybrid characteristics: it is as safe as the lead-acid battery and as powerful as the lithium ion battery.

 

A Greener Battery: The eco-friendly LiFePO4 battery packs are recyclable and non-toxic.

 

I think in the next few years, thanks in part to market and in part to subsidies, the US will become a market leader in battery technology that will be used to power many aspects of our lives.

 

-MKL

 

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russell_bynum

I use LiPo batteries in my RC Aircraft. Definitely impressive compared to the old NiCd batteries.

 

And of course...our laptops, cell phones, etc are all using LiPo batteries as well.

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Matt, what's the matter? Facts too much to swallow? When you get one, let me know.

 

Hold your breath I'll get right on it...

I just don't like them. Besides, I haven't bought a new vehicle in almost 20 years... Goes against my grain.

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I commute 120 miles/day. If anyone is a good market for a fuel efficient car, it's me.

 

You need one of these.

With 25+ years in the making I would not hold my breath for it anytime soon :P

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Today for kicks I drove the Hyundai Sonata hybrid. They're taking a very aggressive "anti-Prius" ad campaign out, touting the Sonata's styling and power. It looks much like a garden variety Sonata (which is certainly more stylish than a Prius / Volt / Insight "Kammback" shape) although its aerodynamics are just as good. It has some 206 combined HP on tap, so it's not much slower than a regular Sonata and faster than the usual hybrids by a little. It does not achieve Prius-level economy, but by marketing the car as the anti-Prius hybrid, I think they will be successful selling the car to people who may have not otherwise considered a hybrid before. Hyundai has some smart people working over there.....

 

-MKL

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  • 1 month later...

The Nissan Leaf Drive Electric Tour is in Atlanta this weekend, and I just came back from a test drive. WOW! This is worth checking out if you live near the tour route: next stops are Knoxville, TN, Charlotte and Raleigh, NC, finishing up in DC (March 18-20).

 

My primary point of reference is a Honda Fit, although I have also done test drives of a 2009 Honda Insight and Prius. Leaf visibility is very similar to the Fit, and much better than either the Insight or Prius (both of which have horrible rear corner visibility). The Leaf doesn't have the magic rear seats, so it doesn't have as much cargo capacity as a Fit, but the interior, especially the seats, is less spartan than the Fit. Exterior looks are another matter entirely, with "fugly" probably being a charitable description (although not nearly as weird as the Nissan Cube)

 

While I love the Fit's cargo capacity and handling, its ride and noise leave something to be desired. Without the sounds of a small gasoline engine, the Leaf was as silent as I would expect a luxury car to be inside, and road noise also seemed very low (not that I got much chance to experience different road surfaces on a 2-mile loop). 0-60 acceleration is probably about the same as the Fit, but without the Sturm und Drang of shifting gears and revving the engine to 6000 rpm; 0-30 acceleration is around 3.5 seconds, and when I floored it, I was pushed back in the seat, and broke traction when crossing a bit of gravel (207 pound-feet of torque for the Leaf, vs 106 for the Fit). Ride and handling through an obstacle course felt pretty good (the 600 pound battery pack is very low), although the steering was a little slower than I am accustomed to.

 

When I test drove a Prius, I couldn't wait for the drive to end; the Insight was a little more fun/responsive to drive, but didn't thrill me. If I were looking for a second car for commuting right now, the Leaf would be very high on my list. Range is ~100 miles, which is enough to get to almost everywhere I travel regularly, but of course rules out long highway trips.

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