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Hybrid Hatred (Volt related)


moshe_levy

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Bob-

 

I am unsure why you would post a totally outdated article from USA Today from 6 months ago. If you want to stick to USA Today, please refer to the article from August 29, here http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/08/cheap-lease-car-pool-access-help-chevy-volt-to-sales-record/1 There you will find, that not only is "no one buying the Volt" untrue, but that in fact that August was the BEST EVER sales month, beating Prius (second year sales for reference) and absolutely destroying the Japanese Nissan Leaf and the Prius Plug In as well. The plant WILL go idle for a few weeks soon as Chevy's retooling to build Impalas there, not because Volt sales are slow. They have never been better!

 

I am happy to report to you all that in my own way, I have added to August's numbers myself. I picked up my own Volt in July, and so far 2 coworkers have purchased Volts (both in August) after tooling around in mine. A third coworker is looking to sign up for one this month. And I've convinced my employer to add more charging stations at work, which has happened. The more people see 'em, the more they drive 'em, the more they like them. Just like the Prius when it came out - except this car is far superior in my opinion. Certainly, its fuel economy is. I have started a small blog where I will track my numbers. Here's month 1:

 

ss1-8-14-12.jpg

 

 

ss2-8-14-12.jpg

 

This is 7/14 to 8/14. 969 Miles total. Lifetime of 150MPG. On strict commuting duty, I am getting between 115-120MPG, but smaller sub-40 mile trips are bringing the overall average up.My total gas bill for this month was $0. (I finally put my first tank of gas in on Aug 28). My best battery performance so far was 47 miles on a single charge. 38 miles is more typical with high speed highway commuting and air conditioning on full blast.

 

I am happy as can be, driving my American designed, American built Volt, and sending less of my dollars than ever to Saudi Arabia.

 

My blog: http://www.mklsportster.com/volt/voltchronicles.htm

 

-MKL

 

 

 

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DaveTheAffable
Bob-

 

I am unsure why you would post a totally outdated article from USA Today from 6 months ago. If you want to stick to USA Today, please refer to the article from August 29, here http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/08/cheap-lease-car-pool-access-help-chevy-volt-to-sales-record/1 There you will find, that not only is "no one buying the Volt" untrue, but that in fact that August was the BEST EVER sales month, beating Prius (second year sales for reference) and absolutely destroying the Japanese Nissan Leaf and the Prius Plug In as well. The plant WILL go idle for a few weeks soon as Chevy's retooling to build Impalas there, not because Volt sales are slow. They have never been better!-MKL

 

Wall Street Journal - Volt Sales / Production interruption

 

So... maybe Bob just linked the wrong article. WSJ says sales are lack luster and GM has more than they need, which is unusual for specialty vehicles. GM says they are stopping production to "Re-tool". You don't stop building cars that are selling well, unless you're selling less than expected.

 

Yes... they are selling more. If my dealer sold 1 in June, 1 in July, and 2 in August... thats a 100% increase for August. No, they are not selling enough, and if each car was not subsidized by my tax dollars to the tune of $7500, no less the GM bailout, they'd be selling none. Don't take it personal. These are just the facts.

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DaveTheAffable

I thought I should add regarding the Volt...

 

I think it is WAY COOL. Well designed. American Designed and (mostly) American built. So, I have no criticism of the car.

 

I do have issues with the subsidies, and other unanswered questions.

 

So yes... I believe the the reason GM can shut down for a while on the Volt is because they have "more than they need" on hand.

 

But I don't think it's a bad car.

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Dave,

 

I'm sorry, but you're wrong on all counts.

 

Regarding the plant retool, currently, the Hamtramck, Mich plant is under utilized, and GM plans to add another car to the mix there (the new Impala). Volt inventory is about 84 days now (ref Wall Street Journal article) and ideally you really want about 60 days. So yes, they haven't been selling as well as GM dreamed of, but they are selling BETTER than Prius did (in its year two), and vastly outselling its main competition from Japan (Nissan Leaf and Prius Plug In). Perhaps GM was over-optimistic in how many they thought would sell in the early years, but compared to anything like it - say, second year Prius, which was breakthrough at the time - it's doing fantastic, and sales are on an uptick even in this poor economy, which is also saying something.

 

Second you mentioned "MY tax dollars subsidizing" the car to the tune of $7,500.00. That, too, is completely incorrect. A new Volt owner receives a TAX CREDIT of $7,500.00. To review, a tax credit is defined as "a sum deducted from the total amount a taxpayer owes to the state." In other words, the Volt buyer has amassed a tax bill - HIS money, not yours - and now has the choice to send that money to GM, or to Treasury. It's HIS money, not yours.

 

Very often we hear that tax dollars are OUR money. True enough. Same here. All my corworkers who bought Volts in August have amassed enough of a tax bill that they can take full advantage of the tax credit - 100% THEIR money - 100% NOT yours. The only taxpayer subsidizing a Volt purchase is the Volt owner himself.

 

-MKL

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By the way, Dave, your WSJ article is also not as recent as the WSJ's current headline "GM Expects Volt To Set Monthly Record" - http://blogs.wsj.com/drivers-seat/2012/08/30/gm-expects-volt-sales-to-set-monthly-record/ - Bob's premise is "nobody is buying the Volt for some reason." Obviously that doesn't jive with the facts, whether it's WSJ, USA Today, or whatever. "Sales record" means just what it sounds like.

 

-MKL

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When I worked Auto years ago the big 3 shut down for 2 weeks every summer for model year change over. In the case there was an overwhelming demand for a car model we'd work overtime to support the product. Shutdown without change over meant we weren't selling cars!

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Richard-

 

There's no doubt that inventory of 84 days isn't ideal. But this is a RELATIVE situation. Compared to similar cars, the Volt is a best-seller, and sales are on an uptick. Compared to historically similar cars - 1st gen Prius for example, when it was new technology - it's outselling that as well.

 

I for one am happy that the US has churned out such a technologically impressive vehicle, and I am confident that in time, the cycle will move from early adopters to more mainstream acceptance as economies of scale are leveraged and prices come down.

 

-MKL

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My comment was a point of clarification not a for or against position. Incidently, Volt production was suspended for 2 weeks and the workers furloughed a few months back. Just fact-no position. Another point: Hamtramck used to produce the full sized Cadilac. I would guess that model line is less important than it used to be.

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Richard-

 

That is correct. Bob's article from March was a furlough due to slow sales. That has obviously changed. A key factor there was CA's acceptance of the Volt for HOV use. Now I believe something like 1 in 3 of the surging Volt sales are taking place in CA.

 

-MKL

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DaveTheAffable
Dave,

 

I'm sorry, but you're wrong on all counts.

Ouch. But... I wrote poorly late last night.

 

So yes, they haven't been selling as well as GM dreamed of,
That's what I meant...

 

..and sales are on an uptick even in this poor economy, which is also saying something.
Agreed

 

Very often we hear that tax dollars are OUR money. True enough. Same here. All my corworkers who bought Volts in August have amassed enough of a tax bill that they can take full advantage of the tax credit - 100% THEIR money - 100% NOT yours. The only taxpayer subsidizing a Volt purchase is the Volt owner himself.
In general, I am opposed to ANY tax credits. Even mortgage credits, which I recieve. The couple that lives in apartment, with the same salary as my wife and I pays more taxes. Therefore, money that they have put in is dispersed to pay for things, compensate for, money that I did NOT put in. The same is true with your Volt. But that's not the cars fault. American tax code is WAY screwed up. LOL.
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DaveTheAffable
Richard-

 

That is correct. Bob's article from March was a furlough due to slow sales. That has obviously changed. A key factor there was CA's acceptance of the Volt for HOV use. Now I believe something like 1 in 3 of the surging Volt sales are taking place in CA.

 

-MKL

Another incentive at the expense of others. If they decided to let Smart Cars, or Mini Coopers use they HOV lanes, their sales would go up too.

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Richard-

 

That is correct. Bob's article from March was a furlough due to slow sales. That has obviously changed. A key factor there was CA's acceptance of the Volt for HOV use. Now I believe something like 1 in 3 of the surging Volt sales are taking place in CA.

 

-MKL

Another incentive at the expense of others. If they decided to let Smart Cars, or Mini Coopers use they HOV lanes, their sales would go up too.

 

There are minimum standards for efficiency to be met. If a car like Mini or Smart can meet them (they can't, but just for example) they too can have access.

 

You look at this in a one-sided way - i.e., incentive AT THE EXPENSE of others. The other side of the coin is called "positive externalities" in economics 101. The public in general benefits from cleaner air. From cleaner water. From reduced health care costs due to the former, and the latter. From reduced dependency on foreign oil. From reduced costs associated with reduced dependency on foreign oil. And so on. Yet you DON'T necessarily pay for it. The guy with the efficient car and efficient house and efficient appliances did. His purchases lead to net benefits which elevate the standard of living not just for himself, but for everyone as a whole.

 

That's why the idea of some "giveaway" here is bumper sticker sloganeering, and sounds great in election year, but it really has no basis in reality. That's also why you see such programs under ALL administrations, regardless of ideology. It is less expensive to incentivize early adopters (i.e., positive externalities) in many cases, than it is to pay for the negative eternalities. Either way, it's gonna get paid for.

 

-MKL

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Why not consider subsidizing hybrids the say way we do buses. With buses, we are paying tax money to decrease the number of cars on the road. With them off the road, there's more room for the rest of us, less wear and tear on the roads, and less need to build or improve roads.

 

With electric and hybrid, the gas they save makes the gas we use a little cheaper.

 

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Quinn-

 

The subsidy for buses comes out of general taxation. Meaning we all pay for it, whether we use the buses or not (for the "positive externalities" you describe - a valid reason in my opinion). I think it's important to remember that hybrid "subsidies" are usually - almost always in fact - tax credits. Meaning the buyer of the car amasses a tax bill which can be offset at his choice, for buying that particular type of car. VERY different from the common erroneous misconception of some people who see a hybrid drive by and say "Oh, MY tax dollars funded THAT guy's car!" No, sorry, they didn't. Your tax dollars will subisize a hybrid (SOME, not all) when YOU buy a hybrid. That's what "tax credit" means.

 

I started this thread to try to find out why people hate the Volt. I have, in 26 pages, never seen a consistent reason yet. People who oppose subsidies are themselves driving subsidized cars (e.g., tell me what you drive, and I WILL show you a subsidy, either direct or indirect). People who oppose Volt are usually silent on its Japanese or German competition, which is even MORE subsidized (directly - as in, what did TN give to Nissan to open plant there for Leaf production? And what did they give to VW for Passat production?) And so on.

 

It is as though the car has come to represent some ideology in their mind, even though the car itself was developed starting in 2005. Even though any ideas for tax credits formed in 2007. For some reason, it has come to represent something else entirely.

 

In short, for some reason, the car is used as a political punching bag. I don't know why. I can't imagine why our own people beat up on our own product and turn a blind eye to other products which, if judged on the same "standards" would be even more offensive. I haven't been successful in uncovering a single coherent reason based on logic and fact that doesn't offer gross contradictions in kind. I can't wait until the election year circus is over and the car goes back to being judged for what it is technically, not what some politicans want to make it out to be.

 

-MKL

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Moshe--

 

I guess my point would only be valid if, by your using your tax credit, the government had to increase my tax burden to keep up the necessary level of revenue needed to run the government. Since they have never had a problem spending more than they take in, I don't see my point as rational and I'll get out of this topic without further embarrasssment.

 

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Quinn-

 

To your point, which some may take issue with but which is valid, I would refer you to my response to Dave above re negative and positive externalities. We pay for them, either way. The question is, what is better to pay for - what is more cost effective, and what ultimately leads to a better life? That is our choice.

 

-MKL

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Dave-

 

Your point is well taken. I did not think YOU per se hate the Volt. I see the hate out there - guys like Neil Cavuto (watch this compliation http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/08/neil-cavuto-really-hates-the-chevy-volt/ ) and other politicians (can't name them here, but you know who they are if you follow the news) who single this car out, for some reason. They NEVER mention the others (especially foreign cars) that receive the same tax credit (as though it is preferrable to give Americans a tax credit for buying a foreign car). They ALWAYS present a "tax credit" as a subsidy covered by all taxpayers (as though if the Volt didn't exist, your tax rate would drop tomorrow :dopeslap: ) The tax subsidies - direct and indirect - relied on by the oil companies are NEVER mentioned. Negative eternalities we all pay for through oil use are NEVER mentioned. They also willfully misrepresent the technological advancement of the car itself - Cavuto actually made the claim that the car "left him stuck" in a tunnel when it switched from battery to gas generator (when in fact, on gas, the range is about 300 miles).

 

It is THIS hate which I seek to understand. I seek to counter it with fact, as I did at work when I explained to curious coworkers how the car works. They don't commute far like I do, so for them, it means literally no more gas to buy. And they signed right up - 2 last month, and another one this month. Every time I stop at a parking lot, somebody asks me questions. GM has heard this so much, that they give owners a packet of "info cards" that they can pass to the curious, so you don't have to answer the same questions over and over again. So obviously the interest is there - the story of the car is muddied by those that have this bizzare hatred for it.

 

-MKL

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DaveTheAffable
It is THIS hate which I seek to understand. I seek to counter it with fact, as I did at work when I explained to curious coworkers how the car works. They don't commute far like I do, so for them, it means literally no more gas to buy. And they signed right up - 2 last month, and another one this month. Every time I stop at a parking lot, somebody asks me questions. GM has heard this so much, that they give owners a packet of "info cards" that they can pass to the curious, so you don't have to answer the same questions over and over again. So obviously the interest is there - the story of the car is muddied by those that have this bizzare hatred for it.

 

-MKL

 

You say you seek to understand? It's easy! Cavuto doesn't like cars you plug in! The fact that he doesn't discuss all the other tax credits he disagrees with every time they discuss the Volt, does not undermine anything. If each time I say I don't like BMW's new handle bar switches, I don't mention OTHER motorcycles with bad switches, does that invalidate my opinion? I DON'T LIKE THE BMW SWITCHES... LOL.

 

So much of discussion these days centers on, "How can I tear down how they said, or what the other person said..." rather than, "Let me think about what they are saying, what they are trying to convey, and if I disagree.... they are entitled to opinions other than mine."

 

Two questions -

 

1) Are people allowed to have a different opinion, or strong feelings about this car that are different than yours?

 

2) What are the indicators, or how would I know, that you are tolerant of someone elses opinion on this topic?

 

 

 

 

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I personally have nothing against electric vehicles but I'm not convinced it's a long term energy solution. What bothers me (and maybe it's been answered in the previous 53 pages of this thread, sorry), is how do we compare fossil fueled, hybrid and pure electric vehicles. We routinely refer to mpg for the former. Is there a similar measure in the other vehicle types and, if so, is there a conversion? What I'm getting at it that most marketing (especially Chevy's) would lead one to believe electricity is free. Customers are shown beaming about not visiting a gas station in months. None of them mention the impact on their electric bills.

 

Someone has probably already done the legwork but I'd like to see a comparison of energy per mile (or $/mile) for all types of power sources. I don't know how to quantify the difference between a 45 mpg internal combustion powered vehicle versus an all electric.

 

Another question would be, if we replaced every internal combustion automobile today with all electric ones, what would the effects on power plant generated pollutants be? Would an unintended consequence be the transfer of air pollutants in urban areas (no more dino cars) to more rural areas where the electricity must be generated?

 

As I said, I have no inherent objection to electric vehicles. It may be that there are good sources of information regarding all these issues and that I just haven't done the research (I'm not in the market right now). Having been an early adopter of technologies in the past (on the "bleeding edge") I'm not keen on shelling out big $$ only to find out I've got the automotive equivalent of the Betamax player.

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Dave-

 

There is a difference between "I don't like the switches" and "the switches caused the BMW bike to FAIL!". That's what Cavuto is saying - not that he hates plug ins in a general sense, but in the specific focus on the Volt and a mantra of "the car left me stranded" when it did exactly what it was supposed to do.

 

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion. Opinions are all well and good. Where they tread on fact is a different story. This is worse than someone coming in here and saying "I hate all BMW motorcycles because their final drives are complete crap and they all fail." Bad enough "opinion" and easy enough to dispute with facts (e.g., how many people have high mileage machines in here with no failures?).

 

But Cavuto and his ilk are singling out this vehicle for an agenda. An agenda that dispenses with fact, calls normal operation "failures," and outright makes stuff up. THAT is what I am trying to figure out. Not why normal run of the mill folk don't like hybrids or plug ins. They certainly don't work for everyone and nobody expects them to. There's a big difference between not caring for a product, and making it your life's work to tear it down. I have no issue with the former, but I take exception to the latter. (I think that answers your question #2).

 

-MKL

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I personally have nothing against electric vehicles but I'm not convinced it's a long term energy solution. What bothers me (and maybe it's been answered in the previous 53 pages of this thread, sorry), is how do we compare fossil fueled, hybrid and pure electric vehicles. We routinely refer to mpg for the former. Is there a similar measure in the other vehicle types and, if so, is there a conversion? What I'm getting at it that most marketing (especially Chevy's) would lead one to believe electricity is free. Customers are shown beaming about not visiting a gas station in months. None of them mention the impact on their electric bills.

 

Hi Al-

 

Yes, in fact, all of this has been covered. We can review a little though. The first is, how much does a charge cost relative to gas for a given distance traveled? The answer is, about 1:5 given national average rates for electricity and gas. Meaning, in plain English: It costs me (were I paying for my electricity at prevailing rates) about $1.50 to charge my Volt, from which I will travel approximately 40 miles (worst case for me so far was 35, best case almost 50, so I err on the side of conservatism here). You know how far $1.50 in gas takes you in your vehicle, or any gas powered vehicle, for that matter. There's your comparo.

 

And it gets MUCH more complicated, obviously. I get my electricity from solar, so I don't pay anything for it, for example. And what about WHERE your electricity comes from? That's a state by state issue - in some states driving a gas hybrid like Prius is less polluting than a primary EV vehicle like Leaf, because electricity comes from burning coal there.

 

co2-US-chart.jpg

 

 

 

average-week-graph.jpg

 

Absolutely the best article on all of this was from Motor Trend - you can link here http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1108_2011_chevrolet_volt_vs_2011_nissan_leaf_vs_2011_toyota_prius_comparison/viewall.html

 

Bottom line: There are many issues here, and many reasons why people buy these cars. Some for environmental reasons. Some because they like the latest technology. Some, like me, for political reasons above all - namely, to me, reducing my dependence on foreign sources of oil is of paramount importance, and these types of cars help me (and the country at large) accomplish that.

 

-MKL

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By the way, to clarify, all graphs above are linked from the Motor Trend article I referenced above. No other article I've ever seen covered all the bases of economy AND pollution in one article. As you can see, these vehicles are a highly regional solution. They make more sense in some areas than others. On the coasts they're a no-brainer which is why you see them everywhere here.

 

-MKL

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DaveTheAffable
...But Cavuto and his ilk are singling out this vehicle for an agenda. An agenda that dispenses with fact, calls normal operation "failures," and outright makes stuff up. THAT is what I am trying to figure out.

 

Well...nothing to figure out. You believe he has an agenda, and it's different then yours, and his facts are wrong. It sounds like you have the understanding you seek.

 

:wave:

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No, that's not enough for me Dave. It is not enough to say "he's wrong." I seek to understand what benefit there is to tearing down an American designed, American built EREV - why THIS model, above all others? What is the political gain (because clearly the agenda is political in nature). What sense does it make for this model above all others to become a poster child for said agenda - why not Nissan, or Fisker, or Tesla, or any of the others? I seek a deeper understanding of the motivation and premises underlying what the Cavutos of the world are trying to do.

 

-MKL

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I may be off topic, but as an investor that lost years of my retirement from the bomb of GM stocks, and my taxes bailing them out, I certainly hope that more than two sides have an agenda in this. I truly believe we need to work on the latest technologies, such as the Volt. And at the same time hope we are not roped into thinking that it is all for our best. To many people and government make fortunes on failed ergo economies.

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...But Cavuto and his ilk are singling out this vehicle for an agenda. An agenda that dispenses with fact, calls normal operation "failures," and outright makes stuff up. THAT is what I am trying to figure out.

 

Well...nothing to figure out. You believe he has an agenda, and it's different then yours, and his facts are wrong. It sounds like you have the understanding you seek.

 

:wave:

 

Go Dave Go!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Interesting stuff. I’d speculate that in Canada, from an emissions perspective, in the eastern part of the country where hydro generated electric is more predominate the hybrids & electrics win out, where as in the west where electricity is mostly still generated by burning various forms of fossil fuels, conventional internal combustion still would have the best carbon footprint.

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Ken,

 

There are many aspects to this issue. In certain cases you have politics and environmentalism pulling in opposite directions. To me getting weaned off of foreign oil is priority one. In my situation, deriving my power 100% from solar both at home and at work, I don't pollute a fraction of a fraction of a traditional car. But my politics being what they are, even if I did, or even a little more, I would still drive what I'm driving. Luckily, I do not have to choose between the two - my politics are satisfied and I don't pollute relative to 99.9% of other drivers out there.

 

-MKL

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  • 7 months later...

There is no question that Fisker is all but doomed. Jamie Kitman's column in this month's Automobile is a good one on the topic.

 

-MKL

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  • 6 months later...
Forget electric, hybrid and hydrogen. This is the ultimate Green car. I want! Behold the Buick Trek.

 

And then the guy smoking says, "I'll follow you guys in the car and be the support vehicle". :D

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