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Hybrid Hatred (Volt related)


moshe_levy

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Is that an SUV?

 

It sounds great!!

 

Yep, ML350 CDI. The '08 seems to get better mileage than other years, it's just a 3.0 with less power though (215 hp ?).

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Interesting. This sub-article proved somewhat enlightening also, thanks.

 

http://mercedesbuyersguide.theautochannel.com/news/2007/01/26/035157.html

 

 

He was right, at the time (2007). Since then the EPA has greatly changed how they rank MPGs among hybrids. For example, my Gen 2 Prius used to have a 60MPG window sticker back then, and in 2008 when I bought it was scaled down to high 40s, which is in fact what it delivers.

 

His comparison of a heavy SUV with a midsize Mercedes sedan is ridiculous, however. In addition to weight there are enormous differences in aerodynamics, gearing, and other factors which lead to disparities. Apples to apples is missing from many of these types of articles.

 

I can see this little group in here is pretty far out from the mainstream sense of demand. Diesel is on the periphery of demand in this country, for some reason. There are barely any offerings and if there were such a demand, I would imagine as Steve said, the market would react...

 

-MKL

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Diesel is on the periphery of demand in this country, for some reason. There are barely any offerings and if there were such a demand, I would imagine as Steve said, the market would react...

 

-MKL

 

There is some truth in that. I think there are several factors, the big two (Honda and especially Toyota) have created some very good marketing strategies for hybrids, in the 80's GM pretty much ruined the D-word forever in the minds of most Americans with their incredibly inept examples, and yes they get pretty decent mileage. OK, but how are your crumple zones? :grin:

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Some of the most promising technology I've seen so far is the work being done at Porsche. They are solving the weight issues associated with engineering the drive motors within the wheels themselves. Once this challenge is unlocked, it can spill over to virtually any kind of torque-driven drive mechanism. The ability to instantly and precisely control the amount of torque being supplied to each wheel will create a quantum leap in performance over today's technology. That, in turn, will automatically lead to better efficiency. Again, a win-win scenerio.

 

Yes, but nothing really that new. The market must not've been quite ready for it. :)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohner-Porsche_Mixte_Hybrid

 

Bill, that is awesome!!! I want one. :thumbsup:

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russell_bynum
I thought I was pretty clear that it was the sanctimonious douchebags who often drive Priuses (Prii?) that I have a problem with.

Now there’s a stereotype if I’ve ever seen one written.

 

Is it just even remotely possible Russell that at least some of those "douchebags" you so willingly disparage might be doing/driving the way they are because they believe it is the right thing to do?

 

Uuhhh....wasn't that implied in what I wrote?

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I can see this little group in here is pretty far out from the mainstream sense of demand. Diesel is on the periphery of demand in this country, for some reason. There are barely any offerings and if there were such a demand, I would imagine as Steve said, the market would react...

 

-MKL

 

There is quite a bit of demand for diesel's here now. One of the obstacles for manufacturers has been diesel formulation. Traditional diesels weren't designed to run on ultra-low sulfur diesel which is now mandated here in the US. Until manufacturers redesign for the new standard, you won't see too much available.

 

Also, mandated higher emissions require quite a bit of extra pollution gear on the vehicle, which drives prices higher and performance lower. For example, comparing my 08 Chevrolet 2500HD diesel to my dad's 03, I get almost 5mpg less mileage. 22mpg to 17mpg is a big drop and can explain why some might not be as excited about the benefits of diesel vs. others.

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I can see this little group in here is pretty far out from the mainstream sense of demand. Diesel is on the periphery of demand in this country, for some reason. There are barely any offerings and if there were such a demand, I would imagine as Steve said, the market would react...

 

-MKL

 

There is quite a bit of demand for diesel's here now. One of the obstacles for manufacturers has been diesel formulation. Traditional diesels weren't designed to run on ultra-low sulfur diesel which is now mandated here in the US. Until manufacturers redesign for the new standard, you won't see too much available.

 

Also, mandated higher emissions require quite a bit of extra pollution gear on the vehicle, which drives prices higher and performance lower. For example, comparing my 08 Chevrolet 2500HD diesel to my dad's 03, I get almost 5mpg less mileage. 22mpg to 17mpg is a big drop and can explain why some might not be as excited about the benefits of diesel vs. others.

 

ULS diesel has been mandated in Europe for far longer than in the US. Over here about 30% of the cars on the road are diesel, though it is hard to tell from the driver's seat. Image is a big factor.

 

Oh, and the diesel fleet is dropping in Europe - because the particulate emission are seen as a major pollutant and have been directly linked to thousands of deaths every year. In Europe, environmentalists consider diesel vehicles to be on a par with coal-burning power stations.

 

Andy

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because the particulate emission are seen as a major pollutant and have been directly linked to thousands of deaths every year.

 

Yeah, I realize people die and all, but, but, but, but... it's CHEAPER! :S

 

-MKL

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Harry_Wilshusen
What part of my work, Matt? Fed rebate ($7500) applies to everyone everywhere in the USA. State rebates vary - look up what (if any) rebate you can get in your state. CA for example plans to offer an additional $5k once its rebate program is in place. I haven't looked up NJ for my dad because we're leasing, not buying, so to us it doesn't apply.

 

-MKL

 

What's CA going to rebate it with? IOU's?

 

Harry

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russell_bynum
What part of my work, Matt? Fed rebate ($7500) applies to everyone everywhere in the USA. State rebates vary - look up what (if any) rebate you can get in your state. CA for example plans to offer an additional $5k once its rebate program is in place. I haven't looked up NJ for my dad because we're leasing, not buying, so to us it doesn't apply.

 

-MKL

 

What's CA going to rebate it with? IOU's?

 

Harry

 

I'll give you a hint. It starts with T and ends with "axes".

 

Bend over and grab your ankles.

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russell_bynum
I can see this little group in here is pretty far out from the mainstream sense of demand. Diesel is on the periphery of demand in this country, for some reason. There are barely any offerings and if there were such a demand, I would imagine as Steve said, the market would react...

 

-MKL

 

There is quite a bit of demand for diesel's here now. One of the obstacles for manufacturers has been diesel formulation. Traditional diesels weren't designed to run on ultra-low sulfur diesel which is now mandated here in the US. Until manufacturers redesign for the new standard, you won't see too much available.

 

We have the ULS diesel here and my '03 Dodge/Cummins does just fine with it.

 

Also, mandated higher emissions require quite a bit of extra pollution gear on the vehicle, which drives prices higher and performance lower. For example, comparing my 08 Chevrolet 2500HD diesel to my dad's 03, I get almost 5mpg less mileage. 22mph to 17mpg is a big drop and can explain why some might not be as excited about the benefits of diesel vs. others.

 

Yup.

 

 

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Soooo....Environmentalist hmmmmmmmmmmm?

 

They want us to get better gas mileage then they make it harder to get better gas mileage.

 

They want us to use less fuel then they make us use more fuel.

 

...sounds like the government got involved in bidness again.

 

L

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russell_bynum
Soooo....Environmentalist hmmmmmmmmmmm?

 

They want us to get better gas mileage then they make it harder to get better gas mileage.

 

They want us to use less fuel then they make us use more fuel.

 

...sounds like the government got involved in bidness again.

 

L

 

There's two arguments going on. One wants better mpg. One wants lower emissions. The two are often somewhat mutually exclusive.

 

But yeah...both are cases of govt getting involved and screwing things up.

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C'mon guys, really. Diesel engines get better MPGs than Petrol. The tradeoff is they have much higher noxious emissions from the tailpipe. That's true in a communist country, an anrachist country, and everything in between. The characteristics of the engines have nothing to do with government whatsover.

 

Answering everything with a knee-jerk response of "government's the answer" or "government's the problem" solves nothing but proving the analysis involved in formulating said response is shallow.

 

-MKL

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C'mon guys, really. Diesel engines get better MPGs than Petrol. The tradeoff is they have much higher noxious emissions from the tailpipe. That's true in a communist country, an anrachist country, and everything in between. The characteristics of the engines have nothing to do with government whatsover.

 

Answering everything with a knee-jerk response of "government's the answer" or "government's the problem" solves nothing but proving the analysis involved in formulating said response is shallow.

 

-MKL

 

That may be true, but pushin CAFE standards at the same time restricting industry from higher MPGs is fun to talk about. Then putting consumption taxes on gas to raise money is all in a days work for Big Bro.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I trust CR on most issues, and they seem to have a fair handle on this. We'll see what they say in their full test, though I must repeat again that the Volt's price is lower than reported when state rebates are factored in, and the comparable cars' prices are higher ***when similarly equipped***. (My Prius was $32k in 2008, and it's only gone up for a top line model since then).

 

One line from the conclusion: "Of course, money-saving is not the Volt’s only raison-de-d’être. This is an electric-drive car that conserves energy in electric mode and does not come with range anxiety. As such, it advances the cause of reducing greenhouse gases and reducing our reliance on foreign oil. According to our recent green-car survey, saving money is not the number one goal for EV intenders, anyway."

 

This basically matches my argument, while diesel solves only half that mission.

 

-MKL

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An EV car is not for me (yet), but I admire how you've thought through it and made a decision that follows your own values.

 

I own a Honda Fit that I do most of my driving in. I also have a Dodge diesel RAM with 106k miles on it that I use for hauling/towing. Unloaded it gets 23 mpg on avg, and with a 10,000 lb towing vehicle towing another 10,000 lbs, it gets 16 mpg.

 

I'm happy with both choices.

 

My wife has an Acura MDX, which is a complete delight to drive and safe at the same time, but the mileage sucks.

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I trust CR on most issues, and they seem to have a fair handle on this. We'll see what they say in their full test, though I must repeat again that the Volt's price is lower than reported when state rebates are factored in, and the comparable cars' prices are higher ***when similarly equipped***. (My Prius was $32k in 2008, and it's only gone up for a top line model since then).

 

One line from the conclusion: "Of course, money-saving is not the Volt’s only raison-de-d’être. This is an electric-drive car that conserves energy in electric mode and does not come with range anxiety. As such, it advances the cause of reducing greenhouse gases and reducing our reliance on foreign oil. According to our recent green-car survey, saving money is not the number one goal for EV intenders, anyway."

 

This basically matches my argument, while diesel solves only half that mission.

 

-MKL

 

I really dont understand you. One minute you use price for the justification, the next you use foreign oil. Either way it doesnt add up. You read the article and can see it just doesnt add up based on the fuel economy and intitial purchase price. If you base it off the reliance on foriegn oil, then you ignore transportation costs for the additional components. You dont factor in that a normal car doesnt have an electric motor, or mass amounts of battery packs. Your entire jsutification is completely flawed. They arent green cars, they dont really reduce the reliance on foreign oil, theres more to dispose of after it life, they cost more than a normal car.....I just dont see the reson why anyone would want to buy this over say...a toyota corrola or a Ford fusion....

 

On a side note, you were wondering why people dont like hybrids? Its defenses like yours that ignore the big picture that turn me off, and every hybrid driver tries the same line of defenses. :) Lets ignore where electricity comes from...lets ignore the additional parts for an electric motor come from....lets ignore batteries...lets ignore the nickel foam in batteries.....lets ignore non-recycleable body panels....

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(My Prius was $32k in 2008, and it's only gone up for a top line model since then).

 

 

OMG.......damn there getting expensive. My dodge ram 4x4 with a HEMI cost 6k dollars less. Based on my driving of 10k miles per year, and $3.00 per gallon for gas, it would over 3 years just to offset the difference in fuel saving. This is not to mention, you have to drive a Prius everyday.... :rofl:

 

If we looked at a Toyota Corolla.....vs the prius.....@10k miles per year....it would take over 48 years.....LOL

 

I hope you enjoy your prius. It makes absolutely no financial sense. Your not helping the environment and your paying alot of extra money for a car that has zero performance capability. ENJOY!

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(My Prius was $32k in 2008, and it's only gone up for a top line model since then).

 

 

OMG.......damn there getting expensive. My dodge ram 4x4 with a HEMI cost 6k dollars less. Based on my driving of 10k miles per year, and $3.00 per gallon for gas, it would over 3 years just to offset the difference in fuel saving. This is not to mention, you have to drive a Prius everyday.... :rofl:

 

If we looked at a Toyota Corolla.....vs the prius.....@10k miles per year....it would take over 48 years.....LOL

 

I hope you enjoy your prius. It makes absolutely no financial sense. Your not helping the environment and your paying alot of extra money for a car that has zero performance capability. ENJOY!

True dat. I LIDAR stopped a 2010 Prius for 50 in a 35 this morning. First thing out of the drivers mouth, "my car doesn't go 50 mph".

Interestingly I noticed a detector sitting on the dash.

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russell_bynum

On a side note, you were wondering why people dont like hybrids? Its defenses like yours that ignore the big picture that turn me off, and every hybrid driver tries the same line of defenses. :) Lets ignore where electricity comes from...lets ignore the additional parts for an electric motor come from....lets ignore batteries...lets ignore the nickel foam in batteries.....lets ignore non-recycleable body panels....

 

Yup. All while preaching at me that I'm destroying the planet.

 

Not all Hybrid drivers are like this, of course but it seems that it's fairly large percentage.

 

I'll also say that among hybrid drivers, the douche-factor seems substantially lower any time their car of choice is not a Prius, or is the Prius that looks like a normal sedan rather than the usual one that everyone else gets. My conclusion is that people buy the different-looking Prius as a statement. I also think that's one of the big reasons the Prius has sold so well despite being grossly overpriced and only moderately more fuel efficient than other cars in its class: Even though it looks like someone beat it with an ugly stick, it looks unique...so everyone knows that you're better than they are.

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Your entire jsutification is completely flawed. They arent green cars, they dont really reduce the reliance on foreign oil, theres more to dispose of after it life, they cost more than a normal car.....I just dont see the reson why anyone would want to buy this over say...a toyota corrola or a Ford fusion....

 

On a side note, you were wondering why people dont like hybrids? Its defenses like yours that ignore the big picture that turn me off, and every hybrid driver tries the same line of defenses. :) Lets ignore where electricity comes from...lets ignore the additional parts for an electric motor come from....lets ignore batteries...lets ignore the nickel foam in batteries.....lets ignore non-recycleable body panels....

 

We're now devolving to the point where we're just not not getting through to each other, and facts be damned we have our opinions that we're gonna stick to. That's fine. I think I've already addressed each of your various points earlier on if you want to go back and check, and provided proof where I could (unlike any of your posts, which are steeped in woefully incorrect statements, without a single bit of objective proof to anything).

 

In the end, we're all free to drive what we like and enjoy it to the extent that we can. I guess we can agree on that, hopefully.

 

-MKL

 

 

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(My Prius was $32k in 2008, and it's only gone up for a top line model since then).

 

That's interesting. I paid $37k in 08 for my 2500HD quad-cab turbo diesel 4X4 in LTZ trim. Maybe GM was more competitive than I thought.

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(My Prius was $32k in 2008, and it's only gone up for a top line model since then).

 

That's interesting. I paid $37k in 08 for my 2500HD quad-cab turbo diesel 4X4 in LTZ trim. Maybe GM was more competitive than I thought.

 

And, getting hit by a pious won't likely hurt anyone in the truck :dopeslap: Unlike the converse.

 

Moshe, if you remove the state rebates, where does the breakeven come on the car?

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Matt-

 

What does "breakeven" mean, in this case? Relative to what? Whatever it is, you can use a calculator and the EPA figures as well as I can.

 

-MKL

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I think what is lost in all this debate so far, or that someone hasn't brought up before is this:

 

The difference between the traditional internal combustion engine as is being advocated here for being more economical vs. the hybrid (series, parallel) or even full on electrical (Leaf) and that difference is mainly emissions.

 

True, a lot of our electricity is from coal fired plants, but some comes from other sources (nuclear, hydroelectric, and soon, wind and solar). I would imagine that taking off the road a portion of Carbon emitting cars and trucks would benefit the environment as a whole if they were reduced in the mix of transportation. I see the battery problem as an environmental issue, but are those not recycled at some level (not sure about that, so educate me here experts)? In urban areas (like Atlanta here in the South) or in LA where there are a lot of cars on the road in a concentrated area in terms of square miles... imagine what the air quality/smog/carbon released in the air would be like if more Priuses/Ford Fusion Hybrids/etc. were on the road, emitting less CO2. So, I probably am more inclined to look at the bigger picture of the local (and global) effect of this pollution as being subservient to paying a higher cost for said vehicle. That and with more people buying this technology, prices will come down.

 

This is the way I have seen this argument and would like to hear from you guys if there is any merit to my understanding of this or not...

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Chris-

 

You are precisely correct. The battery has been decried in this thread for a few reasons, all of which (so far) to me are not really valid:

 

1) That batteries are an environmental hazard: Yes, if not disposed of properly. I help run a business that manufactures UPS Systems, and we dispose of batteries every day, so I know a thing or two about it. Manufacturers like Honda and Toyota have recycling plans in place when old traction batteries are replaced. I would bet a good deal the other mfrs do as well, else face huge fines for improper disposal. See http://www.autoevolution.com/news/toyota-prius-battery-recycling-plan-8360.html for a short article about it. Also keep in mind the traditional lead acid battery has much less recyclable afterlife as the nickel or lithium based batteries in newer hybrids / EVs, making the claim even less worthy.

 

2) That batteries are a reliability problem: Let's get this straight. The traction battery in a typical hybrid is warranteed for 8 years / 100,000 miles. Powertrain typically for 3 years / 36,000 miles. Why people are worried about something which is covered for 2-3x the rest of the car is beyond me, especially if they scan Consumer Reports, or JD Power, or any other objective source of reliability data. Guess what? Hybrids like Prius, Camry, and others rank at or near the top - not of hybrids, but of EVERYTHING. So I guess batteries aren't an issue re reliability.

 

3) That the battery is mined here, shipped there, and assembled somewhere else, and therefor the carbon footprint of manufacturing is higher for hybrids: Only a valid concern when you find me a car with 100% local sourced parts. Otherwise, EVERY car has parts manufacturered where economies of scale for that manufacturer are achieved (or taxes or tariffs are leveraged). Engine from here, tranny from there, interior from somewhere else. That's practically EVERY car. So now because it's a battery it's different? If everybody's guilty, nobody's guilty.

 

4) That electricity is dirty: Sure, some of it is. Dirtier than petrol? I don't know, and nobody here so far has offered any evidence that it is. I DO know mine isn't, because I took the 15 minutes to find a supplier who offers sources from renewable like wind, solar, and refuse gas. I also know the electricity is produced by US, not by OPEC. That to me is #1.

 

5) Emissions: Any car mag now includes C02 grams per mile and it's obvious that hybrids emit far less - up to 2-3x less, than conventional. Just read Motor Trend, Car & Driver, Road & Track - enthusiast publications, not hybrid fans. Are they all lying too? Manufacturers are now putting hybridesque features like stopping the motor at idle on some conventional cars. This trend will continue because it makes sense.

 

Just use common sense on this issue: Tomorrow on the way to work, creeping along in around town or congested traffic, watch the tailpipes of every car around you, all emitting. The hybrids aren't. Period.

 

For some reason this subject is tainted with politics and otherwise reasonable people all of a sudden either feign or honestly lose all powers of reason and fall back to some sort of political defense based on what "capitalists" are supposed to drive (as though Eastern Bloc commies invented hybrid technology, not forward thinking Western industrial powerhouses).

 

Bottom line: We could kick around R-Series vs. K-Series all day on technical merits and nobody would be offended, but to suggest that a hybrid which gets 50MPG and produces half the grams of CO2 per mile is efficient, or economical, and a near riot can erupt. You will have people seriously try to argue about "payback" periods as though that's the only issue in the game. A one dimensional look at a multi-faceted problem to justify political ideology, is what it really is. Sanctimoneous? Try being called a "douchebag" because of your car.

 

-MKL

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russell_bynum

Bottom line: We could kick around R-Series vs. K-Series all day on technical merits and nobody would be offended, but to suggest that a hybrid which gets 50MPG and produces half the grams of CO2 per mile is efficient, or economical, and a near riot can erupt.

 

More efficient: probably.

More economical: LOL! Not hardly.

 

You will have people seriously try to argue about "payback" periods as though that's the only issue in the game.

 

Nobody has done that here. Payback period is important when you're talking about the personal economics of it, though.

 

Sanctimoneous? Try being called a "douchebag" because of your car.

 

Nobody is being called a douchebag because of their car. People are being called douchebags because they're sanctimonious ABOUT their car. There's a difference.

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[Nobody is being called a douchebag because of their car. People are being called douchebags because they're sanctimonious ABOUT their car. There's a difference.

 

Russell, you really need to re-read what YOU wrote before defending your position:

 

"Yup. All while preaching at me that I'm destroying the planet.

 

Not all Hybrid drivers are like this, of course but it seems that it's fairly large percentage.

 

I'll also say that among hybrid drivers, the douche-factor seems substantially lower any time their car of choice is not a Prius, or is the Prius that looks like a normal sedan rather than the usual one that everyone else gets. My conclusion is that people buy the different-looking Prius as a statement. I also think that's one of the big reasons the Prius has sold so well despite being grossly overpriced and only moderately more fuel efficient than other cars in its class: Even though it looks like someone beat it with an ugly stick, it looks unique...so everyone knows that you're better than they are."

 

I'd say you make a lot of very broad generalizations of hybrid owners. Don't you think?

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That's interesting. I paid $37k in 08 for my 2500HD quad-cab turbo diesel 4X4 in LTZ trim. Maybe GM was more competitive than I thought.

 

Moshe, if you remove the state rebates, where does the breakeven come on the car?

 

An interesting point considering the corporate welfare I got just for buying a vehicle over 6,000lbs for my company. I was able to deduct $20k of income (saving me about $7k in taxes) which brings the "real" cost to me down to $30k. Without the federal subsidies, I would have been better off having bought a basic 1/2 ton truck. But, it is what it is and that is how the game is played in this day and age.

 

[edit] Oh, and I want to thank all of you for kicking in a little extra to help make my truck not so costly to me. :thumbsup: [/edit]

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Steve-

 

I'm happy you mention this - especially you, since you touted the free market as the solution here. This tax writeoff is something I touched on earlier, that nobody commented on, which both disgusts and delights many who have disagreed with me on this thread. Disgust because it is a subsidy - delight because it clearly shows a government policy that contradicts itself terribly (subsidies for hybrids for high MPGs, and even higher subsidies for heavy trucks as a deduction).

 

As I mentioned earlier, this little loophole you mention cost Uncle Sam more last year than the past 10 years of hybrid subsidies combined (which run out per model as it reaches a certain sales figure). This is why I love when the good 'ole boys in the big pickups call hybrid drivers (paraphrased) "commies who are on the government dole," when in reality, as you pointed out, it's the big trucks that get the REAL subsidies. A couple of hundred bucks for buying a hybrid - IF any rebates are even left (none are on Prius, for example) vs. $7k on a pickup.

 

You do the math.... Who are the commies now? :rofl:

 

I'm sure I'll just hear lots of crickets now as this distressing news is swallowed by my "capitalist" brethren.......

 

-MKL

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"[edit] Oh, and I want to thank all of you for kicking in a little extra to help make my truck not so costly to me. :thumbsup: [/edit]"

Don't worry, I'll get it back from you sooner or later... :)

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Oh, and I want to thank all of you for kicking in a little extra to help make my truck not so costly to me. :thumbsup: [/edit]

 

Hey it's the least I could do since you're covering my Social Security.

 

----

 

 

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Matt-

 

What does "breakeven" mean, in this case? Relative to what? Whatever it is, you can use a calculator and the EPA figures as well as I can.-MKL

 

 

Sorry, that should have been cost per mile instead of break even.

 

I would have calculated but since this is your crusade I knew you'd have the figures handy already and I could go back to capitalistic pursuits like finding loopholes to not pay for Steve's truck! :rofl:

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That's interesting. I paid $37k in 08 for my 2500HD quad-cab turbo diesel 4X4 in LTZ trim. Maybe GM was more competitive than I thought.

 

Moshe, if you remove the state rebates, where does the breakeven come on the car?

 

An interesting point considering the corporate welfare I got just for buying a vehicle over 6,000lbs for my company. I was able to deduct $20k of income (saving me about $7k in taxes) which brings the "real" cost to me down to $30k. Without the federal subsidies, I would have been better off having bought a basic 1/2 ton truck. But, it is what it is and that is how the game is played in this day and age.

 

[edit] Oh, and I want to thank all of you for kicking in a little extra to help make my truck not so costly to me. :thumbsup: [/edit]

 

 

...it all sounds good, but don'tcha really just take the right off up front......soooo ya can't take the mileage deduction.

 

?

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russell_bynum
[Nobody is being called a douchebag because of their car. People are being called douchebags because they're sanctimonious ABOUT their car. There's a difference.

 

Russell, you really need to re-read what YOU wrote before defending your position:

 

"Yup. All while preaching at me that I'm destroying the planet.

 

Not all Hybrid drivers are like this, of course but it seems that it's fairly large percentage.

 

I'll also say that among hybrid drivers, the douche-factor seems substantially lower any time their car of choice is not a Prius, or is the Prius that looks like a normal sedan rather than the usual one that everyone else gets. My conclusion is that people buy the different-looking Prius as a statement. I also think that's one of the big reasons the Prius has sold so well despite being grossly overpriced and only moderately more fuel efficient than other cars in its class: Even though it looks like someone beat it with an ugly stick, it looks unique...so everyone knows that you're better than they are."

 

I'd say you make a lot of very broad generalizations of hybrid owners. Don't you think?

 

Yup. Based on my observations.

 

Certainly not all Hybrid drivers are sanctimonious douchebags, but it does seem like a disproportionate number of sanctimonious douchebags drive Hybrids...particularly the hatchback version of the Prius.

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"[edit] Oh, and I want to thank all of you for kicking in a little extra to help make my truck not so costly to me. :thumbsup: [/edit]"

Don't worry, I'll get it back from you sooner or later... :)

 

Paul, you're going to live like a thousand years, so I'm getting prepared. :grin:

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Steve-

 

I'm happy you mention this - especially you, since you touted the free market as the solution here. This tax writeoff is something I touched on earlier, that nobody commented on, which both disgusts and delights many who have disagreed with me on this thread. Disgust because it is a subsidy - delight because it clearly shows a government policy that contradicts itself terribly (subsidies for hybrids for high MPGs, and even higher subsidies for heavy trucks as a deduction).

 

As I mentioned earlier, this little loophole you mention cost Uncle Sam more last year than the past 10 years of hybrid subsidies combined (which run out per model as it reaches a certain sales figure). This is why I love when the good 'ole boys in the big pickups call hybrid drivers (paraphrased) "commies who are on the government dole," when in reality, as you pointed out, it's the big trucks that get the REAL subsidies. A couple of hundred bucks for buying a hybrid - IF any rebates are even left (none are on Prius, for example) vs. $7k on a pickup.

 

You do the math.... Who are the commies now? :rofl:

 

I'm sure I'll just hear lots of crickets now as this distressing news is swallowed by my "capitalist" brethren.......

 

-MKL

 

Oh, I seem to have struck a nerve. Sorry about that.

 

Subsidies are subsidies, regardless who gets them. And, welfare is welfare, no matter who gets it. In turn, the rules are the rules, and everyone has to play by them.

 

I didn't make the rule about prius subsidies, nor large truck tax breaks. In fact, I steadfastly oppose any form of wealth transfer from one individual to another. But, if such a hairbrained idea sees the light of day and ultimately becomes the law of the land, then that's it - game on. I will take every dollar this government gives me legally.

 

Another excellent example is the Georgia Lottery. I voted against it twice. It passed both times. So, what am I to do? Cry in my milk because it's wrong for my kids to get a free education payed for by people with poor math skills? Should I have unilaterally "disarmed" and refused the largess? Um, only if were a complete idiot. My kids went to college at very little cost to me because of a stupid law, voted for by stupid people thinking they were somehow going to beat the system and get rich winning a rigged game.

 

If the government is going to put a stack of cash on a street corner with a sign on it saying, "Take Some", then I'm their huckleberry. Maybe, as a collective, we ought to stop putting other peoples money out there to begin with. I'm just saying.

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Steve-

 

Sometimes inflection gets lost in written word. I was only being tongue-in-cheek with you - although more literal with others. If you go back and scan some responses thus far, you will very clearly see some opinions which state (paraphrased) that hybrids are hated because they are propped up by government subsidies, while going on to laud the towing capacities of large pickups (e.g. "maybe it's the capitalist in me," etc.). I merely - and quite gleefully - point out the complete fallacy of that position. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

I respect your position on subsidies to a pretty large extent (you'd be surprised how much we likely agree upon over a beer) but obviously veer off in another direction in some regards. Not too many, but some.

 

-MKL

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Whoops, I almost missed your response. I'm sure we'd agree on a whole range of things, depending upon the quantity and quality of the beer. But, no matter how much beer you got me to drink, I would never slip behind the wheel of a Prius. I take drinking and driving very serious.

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I take drinking and driving very serious.

 

Yet another thing we agree on.

 

I'll let you guys know my impressions of the Volt when it arrives (ASSuming my dad lets me borrow it to test it out).

 

-MKL

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I go away for a week and look what happens...

 

Let me clear things up...

 

Jan, I believe IT Mike's quote falls out of the realm of opinion and into refutable fact. Certainly there is no case to make that pure I/C engines are more economical than hybrids, since every hybrid version of a standard car gets better MPG, and every EV vehicle is about 5x less costly to run per mile than pure gas or diesel, even with amortization of the battery factored in.

 

Really? Even with your sudo-mileage of 60MPG for the Volt, the Volvo I pointed out early gets better fuel economy (67MPG) and will get that fuel economy mile after mile.

 

 

Certainly there is no case that I/C is more reliable than hybrid, either (check Consumer Reports reliability ratings or JD Power for proof).
Tell me that one again in another 150K miles. IC engines will outlast your batteries if nothing else. BTW, I routinely put over 200K miles on my vehicles. How many sets of batteries is that...?

 

Definitely, IC is not more efficient than hybrid or electric - efficiency of even the best IC engines is quite poor, actually - around 20%.

Pure efficiency, in a contained, controlled environment? Sure.

Now take it off the grid...What's the efficiency when you include the typically IC power generation facilities to recharge your batteries?

 

Battery driven solutions require large numbers (or size) of batteries, generally with short life spans, and an alternate power source to charge them.

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I go away for a week and look what happens...

 

Let me clear things up...

 

>>>>Really? Even with your sudo-mileage of 60MPG for the Volt, the Volvo I pointed out early gets better fuel economy (67MPG) and will get that fuel economy mile after mile.<<<<

 

Mike, I have no issue with this Volvo you brought up, except for the fact that I can't get one here in the USA. As such, it's not a viable solution for an American consumer to consider until which time it's available. The Volvo has its own set of tradeoffs (diesel pollution among them).

 

>>>>>Tell me that one again in another 150K miles. IC engines will outlast your batteries if nothing else. BTW, I routinely put over 200K miles on my vehicles. How many sets of batteries is that...?<<<<

 

I am at a loss to explain why some have a newfound paranoia about the supposed lack of battery reliability. By all measures, the Prius at least is tremendously reliable:

 

#1 in JD Power - http://www.hybridautoreview.net/j-d-power-ranks-prius-as-most-reliable.html

 

Consistently Top Ranked Reliability in Consumer Reports - http://green.autoblog.com/2007/10/18/consumer-reports-top-five-reliable-family-cars-list-includes-tw/

 

I could go on, if you want. The battery is warrantied for 100k in most states, up to 150k in some other states like CA. So, after 100k or more, I may have to replace a battery, which will run me about $2k if I buy a new one, or under $750 if I buy an almost new one from a wreck on Ebay.... So what? After that many miles, are you really complaining? To answer your question, visit Prius forums like Priuschat.com. 200-300k vehicles are commonplace. Some used as taxis in cities like New York, so that's hard mileage. Some are still on original batteries, some on the second. So what?

 

How long with a Volt's batteries last? I dunno. I hope they're as good as the Prius' and other hybrid vehicles on the road, most of which have stellar relability records and no history of battery problems or recalls.

 

>>>>Pure efficiency, in a contained, controlled environment? Sure. Now take it off the grid...What's the efficiency when you include the typically IC power generation facilities to recharge your batteries?<<<<<

 

Let's call Steve in on this for defense of the market. If we use price as the determining factor of availability (and by extension efficiency) there is no contest. You can travel about 5x as far on $1 on electricity at prevailing market rates vs. $1 in gasoline at prevailing market rates.

 

>>>>Battery driven solutions require large numbers (or size) of batteries, generally with short life spans, and an alternate power source to charge them.

<<<<<

 

Where do you come up with this notion of batteries with short life spans? Please show us. The proof certainly is not in the hybrid vehicle market, which has proven over 14 years that the batteries are not a problem issue.

 

Why is it bad for batteries to require charging, whether on the grid (plug in) or off, as in the Prius? It's not a reason in and of itself to be anti-electric, any more than if I state that "IC engines are bad because they require you to fill the gas tank with petrol." Yeah, and?

 

The technology's improving. It's getting better all the time, and the Volt represents a new step forward, like the very first RT. Not a sport bike, not a tourer - both. The Volt is not a traditional hybrid, not an EV - both. Kudos to GM for thinking outside the box.

 

Pox on the industry for doing such a piss poor job of explaining the technologies to the public, which still carries all sort of misconceptions around regarding the issue.

 

-MKL

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