Signing out

[TEWKS]

Just in case you want to know, it is Second wind BMW in Merrimack nh. So there is a dealer compliment,

Good people for sure!

 

Pat

[dhanson]

There is no reason to turn it off, it actually works. I can't find any better words to describe it. I have thrashed it offroad in some pretty bad conditions, the ABS will stay on for me.

 

Also the traction control works just as well only in reverse if can grasp that idea.

 

You are not alone tho, some of the Super Tenere owners do not wish to try it offroad unless they can switch it off somehow. I admit I did not attempt a downhill gravel turn at 40 mph for my first test, I worked up to it before I trusted it. Basically, it will not slide the front wheel while braking in loose stuff but will stop just the same, you can hear the gravel moving but it is stable through out. Pretty amazing really.

[roadscholar]

[TEWKS]

That's a bad @$$ pic right there! For the less hip in our group bad in this case, means good. I don't know about the @$$ part?

 

Pat

[RockBottom]

That's a bad @$$ pic right there! For the less hip in our group bad in this case, means good. I don't know about the @$$ part?

 

Pat

 

For many of us, when you say "hip," the word that immediately pops to mind is "replacement."

[TEWKS]

 

For many of us, when you say "hip," the word that immediately pops to mind is "replacement."

 

Pat

 

[Rafigso]

in Merrimack nh.

 

I've been there before! Do you work at PCC by chance?

[Dan5620]

Lasting dealers are a reflection of their customers, customers are a lasting reflection of their dealers - and hopefully there's enough money to support both their lifestyles.

[dhanson]

That's a bad @$$ pic right there! For the less hip in our group bad in this case, means good. I don't know about the @$$ part?

 

Pat

 

In my case the @$$ is going fast, picture the old man in spandex.

[Peter Parts]

"Lemon Law"... kind of odd when you think about it. Do specific cars or bikes belonging to specific owners get "spooked" and have mysterious flaws all over that can never be repaired? Can one person's bike have a bad wheel bearing that can never be fixed right even though everybody else's bearings are OK? Can you buy a car put together on a Monday morning after a drunk weekend at the factory city and find it is junk?

 

For sure, you can count me in to the Wall Street protest 99%ers and esp. regarding consumer protection. If BMW is making a bad model or if they are negligent in repairing it promptly, the consumer needs protection. That may apply to this thread.

 

On the other hand, believing that one guy with one bike with one part is "spooked," does not make sense. Or that may apply to this thread.

 

Ben

BT023s hold up real well in cold weather

[Quinn]

"Lemon Law"... kind of odd when you think about it. Do specific cars or bikes belonging to specific owners get "spooked" and have mysterious flaws all over that can never be repaired? Can one person's bike have a bad wheel bearing that can never be fixed right even though everybody else's bearings are OK? Can you buy a car put together on a Monday morning after a drunk weekend at the factory city and find it is junk?

 

For sure, you can count me in to the Wall Street protest 99%ers and esp. regarding consumer protection. If BMW is making a bad model or if they are negligent in repairing it promptly, the consumer needs protection. That may apply to this thread.

 

On the other hand, believing that one guy with one bike with one part is "spooked," does not make sense. Or that may apply to this thread.

 

Ben

BT023s hold up real well in cold weather

 

Lemon Laws are a good protection for comsumers, but you do have a point about their validity from a mechanical viewpoint. Kind of like an ax that has gone bad. If you replace the head and then replace the handle, it ought to work. I suspect most Lemon Law problems are because the dealers are fixing the symtoms and not the problem. After all those switch assemblies, it looks like someone would want to know why their going bad on that particular bike. Short somewhere? corroded connector? Miswired harness? I can understand the frustration of trying to get the attention of a symtom fixer and make him realize that there's a problem. Time for both parties to sit down and agree that they both want the same thing--a bike that works correctly and they are on the same side. Then you can decide if you need to fix the bike or the customer.

 

-----

 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

"Lemon Law"... kind of odd when you think about it. Do specific cars or bikes belonging to specific owners get "spooked" and have mysterious flaws all over that can never be repaired? Can one person's bike have a bad wheel bearing that can never be fixed right even though everybody else's bearings are OK? Can you buy a car put together on a Monday morning after a drunk weekend at the factory city and find it is junk?

 

Sure; that's not so hard to imagine. Maybe the junior mechanic at the shop is pressing in new wheel bearings incorrectly; you get it fixed five times under warranty, and it self-destructs within 150 miles each time. And yeah, maybe you do get that one-in-a-million vehicle that has a dozen things wrong with it because the line worker was distracted that day. It happens.

 

Lemon laws exist to protect individual consumers from extreme runs of bad luck. Whereas a warranty is a manufacturer's way of distributing risk (everybody pays a little bit more for their vehicle in order to cover those few people who actually have a problem with their vehicle), the lemon law is the state's way of mandating additional distribution of risk (everybody pays an additional bit for their vehicle in order to allow the manufacturer to buy back those rare lemons).

 

I suppose LL's vary from state to state. Michigan's law provides relief for "a defective vehicle...in which the same problem has not been repaired after four attempts, or a vehicle that is out of service 30 days or more for repairs. The first report of the defect must be made within one year from the date of delivery to the original purchaser or lessee or during the term of the manufacturer's warranty, whichever period is shorter." It looks like the "out of service for 30+ days" clause provides recourse for customers who have a variety of problems with their vehicle, rather than one seemingly incurable problem.

 

FWIW I came very close to invoking the lemon law for my car, a 2003 Nissan Maxima. The sound system's head unit had been replaced four times, all under warranty. That fifth one lasted until the warranty expired, and then started malfunctioning again (CD player skips when cold). At that point it was out of warranty, so I had no recourse (other than hacking into the head unit and wiring up an iPod ). The head units were a known problem for that car, and it was just my bad luck to end up with five in a row.

 

[Peter Parts]

Right. Superstitious words like "bad luck" is what I'm wondering about. Like when you say "My car is a lemon" meaning it is spooked.

 

For sure, important to protect consumers at all levels and from all kinds of abuse.

 

But maybe better to have a law about "Lemon Models" and, separately, effective state/province consumer protection for negligent repairs.

 

Naturally, I would never want to violate forum rules about talking politics, but a voter should wonder when a politician in Canada, the US, or anywhere talks about reducing nuisance regulations as seen by businesses, that they aren't sometimes talking about consumer protections.

 

I can't say how BMW behaves in Germany, but in North America, they are pretty nasty and arrogant when it comes to acknowledging their shortcomings. Funny, 40 yrs ago, they were famous for compulsive debugging through the model years. If you study the R69s, sold from 1960 to 1969, you'll see a trail of small but valuable improvements in many years.

 

Ben

[Foot]

This is a shame, I know both Thomas and Justin. Both are nice people to be a round. Justin's shop has been nothing but helpful to me. Thomas and I both attended Chris k's tech day in Atlanta. Thomas was a great helping anyone he could. It's ashame that Thomas got a lemon because this would have been a mute point. Thomas hang out on the board, we don't care what you ride. Justin keep up the the good work you have done for the Chattnaooga area riders. I am sorry the two of you didn't hit it off.

 

Alan

[RPG]

Bottom line, like I said before, if you purchase a BMW you better be ready for a wild ride. I will never go there again, I don't need nor want the aggravation. You must keep it in warranty to fix all the problems and then you must fight with the dealer to get the warranty.

 

The bike is not cheap, there are alternatives that work just as well and in my case much better. The ABS on my bike actually works on and off road. I know, hard for GS riders to believe.

 

I have met and continue to meet some really great people on this forum as riders and most of them are on BMWs, that is the only reason I hang out. I appreciate BMW for giving lots of people rides, but I am not interested in the bike for me.

 

I hope you have better luck with another brand, although from your posts it seems you might be a trifle bit hard to satisfy. Maybe a Kawasaki Concours 14, where my buddy had a clunk in his drivetrain and after bringing it to the dealer, was told by the 19 year old, uhmm.... Technician, "dude, they all do that!" Later, he found out that the U-joint was going south.

 

RPG

[JamesW]

"Lemon Law"... kind of odd when you think about it. Do specific cars or bikes belonging to specific owners get "spooked" and have mysterious flaws all over that can never be repaired? Can one person's bike have a bad wheel bearing that can never be fixed right even though everybody else's bearings are OK? Can you buy a car put together on a Monday morning after a drunk weekend at the factory city and find it is junk?

 

For sure, you can count me in to the Wall Street protest 99%ers and esp. regarding consumer protection. If BMW is making a bad model or if they are negligent in repairing it promptly, the consumer needs protection. That may apply to this thread.

 

On the other hand, believing that one guy with one bike with one part is "spooked," does not make sense. Or that may apply to this thread.

 

Ben

BT023s hold up real well in cold weather

 

I pretty much agree. There is no way a switch assembly can go bad 4 times for no reason. I was an electronics/telecom tech during my working days and I long ago came to the conclusion that many people in my field of endeavor simply could not analyze or troubleshoot a problem. They would go so far and could not go further. Often times they would just keep replacing the same component and, I guess, hope for the best. IMO good in depth troubleshooters are simply in the minority. You cannot train a person to troubleshoot. The individual either has it or they don't and if they don't they will never be able to deal with problems that require the touch. Granted, when working in a shop environment where labor costs are the prime concern in depth troubleshooting can be expensive. Much easier, I suppose, to just replace a switch and hope for the best.

[scott r1200rt]

Rafigso, I do not work there, but I do know some that do!

[TEDZ]

There might be a good deal on a used bike in here somewhere. And nobody has asked what kind of oil might have caused all of the switch assemblies to fail. Assuming it wasn't caused by using ethanol. (I hope you all realize I'm joking)

[Glenn Reed]

We at Pandora's hope this works out to Thomas's satisfaction, so he can get back to having fun and riding his bike.

 

This would be a good result, absolutely!

 

I hear there are some nice roads down your way, but haven't been there yet.

[Nice n Easy Rider]

There might be a good deal on a used bike in here somewhere. And nobody has asked what kind of oil might have caused all of the switch assemblies to fail. Assuming it wasn't caused by using ethanol. (I hope you all realize I'm joking)

 

Glad you told us - would have never guessed!

[outpost22]

It doesn't matter what the warranty is if the unit was poorly designed/engineered to start with. If the switchgear/wiring harness has multiple defects in design, no dealer mechanic can "fix" it without going outside the boundaries of what he is allowed to fix by BMW.

 

Witness my airbox on the F650. It shredded seals on the air filter. BMW refused to fix ip...just added a new air filter and saw the process repeat over and over. So, I fixed it myself-outside the BMW lines, so to speak.

The same with my Fridgedaire appliances (Hint: don't buy this brand).

My stove and dishwasher both had major design flaws. The inside tray wheels on the dishwasher would always fall off, roll down by the heating element and melt. After having this happen multiple times and buying more wheels, I finally JB Welded the things on, and 3 years later no issues. Not an approved factory repair, but ask me if I care.

 

I think a lot of us trust our own instincts on how to fix these bike flaws rather than trusting "corporate" to get back to us on that. Unfortunately, we shouldn't have to. Since my bikes have no "warranty" to worry about breaching, I'd rather do it myself.

[Dan5620]

I tell ya, if my pacemaker quits, St. Jude's is getting no more of my money!!

[tallman]

If it is the L hand switch assembly, I think some techs may be tempted to take it apart to install rather than remove the grip and slide it on.

One way I've seen problems with replacement assembly, the remove grip and install seems to prevent that.

When you split it open, it may work then, but later?

 

May be a real good used bike available.

 

 

[RockBottom]

I have nothing to add but thought I was the only person who hadn't participated in this thread and was feeling left out.

[Huzband]

I tell ya, if my pacemaker quits, St. Jude's is getting no more of my money!!

 

Levity will get you know where here. Try again in the electric car thread in Other Topics. Then again, I think your humor would be lost on Moshe.

[RT Russ]

There is no way a switch assembly can go bad 4 times for no reason. I was an electronics/telecom tech during my working days and I long ago came to the conclusion that many people in my field of endeavor simply could not analyze or troubleshoot a problem. They would go so far and could not go further. Often times they would just keep replacing the same component and, I guess, hope for the best. IMO good in depth troubleshooters are simply in the minority. You cannot train a person to troubleshoot. .

 

As a troubleshooter, technical support to our field electrical techs and mentor to F.O.C. (fresh out of college) engineers, I often tell them.....in order to fix something, you must understand how it works! Anybody can change parts.....

[Francois_Dumas]

A story never is complete without hearing BOTH sides of it, is it?

[motorman587]

I have nothing to add but thought I was the only person who hadn't participated in this thread and was feeling left out.

 

Me too, saw all the replys, thought it was cop slinging post.............

[Firefight911]

There is no way a switch assembly can go bad 4 times for no reason. I was an electronics/telecom tech during my working days and I long ago came to the conclusion that many people in my field of endeavor simply could not analyze or troubleshoot a problem. They would go so far and could not go further. Often times they would just keep replacing the same component and, I guess, hope for the best. IMO good in depth troubleshooters are simply in the minority. You cannot train a person to troubleshoot. .

 

As a troubleshooter, technical support to our field electrical techs and mentor to F.O.C. (fresh out of college) engineers, I often tell them.....in order to fix something, you must understand how it works! Anybody can change parts.....

 

One thing to add for a separate perspective here is that BMW came out with a completely new design on their switches when the K13GT/K13S came out. This new design was a radical departure from anything that had been used prior. This new design now prevails throughout the BMW model range.

 

As a result, and through a, in my opinion, failure to put this new switch design through enough real world testing in which any weaknesses in teh design would surface switch assemblies began to fail faster than flies dropping from a bug zapper or sheep dropping to their knees at the sight of Wurty.

 

You could go out ride all morning, park for lunch, come out after lunch, and your bike would not start or the turn signals would be stuck on or they wouldn't work, etc.

 

It happened to me 5 times.

 

Many times, a fix would be to run cold water over the switch. This could resurrect it for a time. I'm not kidding here!

 

Sun heating of the switch clusters would make them fail. I am glad that when Twisties was over at my place and he rode my bike to the dealer for a first aid class I was teaching my start switch failed in the parking lot! You see, the bike had been ridden like normal (well, as "normal" as Twisties can ride) and parked in the parking lot for the day. When it was time to leave, no start. That was it. Rolled it to the service bay where the bike sat for two weeks as it awaited a new switch which promptly failed again a few months later and was replaced with a new design set up.

 

Overall, I had five switch assemblies, three lefts and two rights and, in their defense, it had nothing to do with a technician/troubleshooter/parts swapper. It was a known design flaw that apparently still exists in some bikes.

[JamesW]

Hi Phil,

If the switch assemblies in question are stand alone defective, and that would be a big if imo, then it's time to address that issue with the manufacturer for sure rather than just removing and replacing. Back to what makes a good in depth troubleshooter.

[Firefight911]

Hi Phil,

If the switch assemblies in question are stand alone defective, and that would be a big if imo, then it's time to address that issue with the manufacturer for sure rather than just removing and replacing. Back to what makes a good in depth troubleshooter.

 

Troubleshooting is one thing but design, an entirely other. The design was found to be at fault and they were re-designed. There have been, IIRC, at least two superseding part numbers released on the assemblies with redesigned internals. The existing stock of original parts was not removed from stock. Instead, BMW rolled the dice that some would and some would not fail. Those that did, kept getting new ones. Those that did not thought the problem was solved.

 

I spent many years as an electronics technician in the Marine Corps with my sole job as being a troubleshooter for the internal black box electronics of fighter equipment such as bombing computers, air data computers, compass systems, generator convertor units, and the like. Everything from F-4s to AV-8s, C-130s, A-6s, and F-18s.

 

The switch issue had nothing to do with troubleshooting. It was a design flaw.

[Firefight911]

The newest design BMW motorcycle switches are of MID design.

 

Using MID (Moulded Interconnect Devices) technology, the new switch and control units are far smaller and more compact, while at the same time offering a higher standard of functionality, clear design and optimum accessibility.

 

MID Design expalnation link

 

Another link

 

Their first design didn't handle the environment well. Hot, cold, etc. would cause them to fail to function. Hence, pouring cold water over them would sometimes get them to work again, albeit, for a limited time frame.

[4wheeldog]

Some folks tolerate being a beta tester for BMW better than others.

[Bwana]

I've found I don't like being a beta tester much, so I have started buying anything with wheels a few years old(read out of warranty). Usually, the original owner took it in shorts when he bought it, then spent 2 or 3 years batteling back and forth with a dealer who wasn't getting paid enough for the warranty repairs to give a crap. Now, the sheen is off the rose, and the owner is persona-non-grata around the dealership. once again, the owner takes it in the shorts selling it outright(he would have gotten even less trading it in) and I buy it for for around 50% of MSRP. When a vehicle costs twenty grand and a widgit fails- you are so pissed you want to drive it through the dealers window! when you only pay ten for it- you say: gee, I suppose I should see if I can fix that sometime. As I have aged, I have started to notice life is just tooooo short to sweat the petty things.I got this way when I purchased a new 2003 Grand Am gt for the wife for $25K and proceeded to spend the better part of the next 36 months warring with GM over one thing or another. I finally got so tired of it that I traded it for a new Honda Accord(best move I ever made). When I traded it, I got $8K for it- the wife turns to me and says: for 25 grand it was a POS, for 8 grand, it was a heck of a car! And the light started to flicker on....

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

Sounds like you got one of those wifes with great insight!

 

GOOD ON YOU!!!

[4wheeldog]

I have happily bought Honda cars and Toyotas new with never a worry. I will never buy a BMW new again. Like you, I will buy used, with the issues already dealt with, or at least the lower cost to ease the pain of fixing it myself. BMW corporate's attitude has soured many on the experience of new BMW motorcycles.

 

If they spent half the time they spend denying the problems on fixing them, I would continue to be a loyal customer. But they haven't, so I am not.

[Quinn]

I've found I don't like being a beta tester much, so I have started buying anything with wheels a few years old(read out of warranty). Usually, the original owner took it in shorts when he bought it, then spent 2 or 3 years batteling back and forth with a dealer who wasn't getting paid enough for the warranty repairs to give a crap. Now, the sheen is off the rose, and the owner is persona-non-grata around the dealership. once again, the owner takes it in the shorts selling it outright(he would have gotten even less trading it in) and I buy it for for around 50% of MSRP. When a vehicle costs twenty grand and a widgit fails- you are so pissed you want to drive it through the dealers window! when you only pay ten for it- you say: gee, I suppose I should see if I can fix that sometime. As I have aged, I have started to notice life is just tooooo short to sweat the petty things.I got this way when I purchased a new 2003 Grand Am gt for the wife for $25K and proceeded to spend the better part of the next 36 months warring with GM over one thing or another. I finally got so tired of it that I traded it for a new Honda Accord(best move I ever made). When I traded it, I got $8K for it- the wife turns to me and says: for 25 grand it was a POS, for 8 grand, it was a heck of a car! And the light started to flicker on....

 

I would only add that I paid cash for my lightly used RT. Now when I have an expensive repair, I just think of it as a couple of additional payments. This year I probably made several new vehicle payments for shocks to get a new ride quality bike. The repairs just reset the clock for my bike to keep on giving me as much pleasure as I can handle and are a lot less than trading it in and starting the process over.

 

-----

 

 

[slipknot]

Has BMW redesigned the switch gear or has BMW sent bulletins to tech directing them to use a different method of switch replacement, if it is an installation problem?

[4wheeldog]

Has BMW redesigned the switch gear or has BMW sent bulletins to tech directing them to use a different method of switch replacement, if it is an installation problem?

 

Whatcha talkin' 'bout, Willis? BMW says that there is nothing wrong with their switches, final drives, input shafts etc.......They have never heard of any such problems..........Just ask 'em.

[Dan5620]

THIS IS THE MOTHER SHIP.

 

WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND. HOW CAN THIS THREAD BE SO LONG, WHEN THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM? THERE IS NOT A PROBLEM WITH OUR PRODUCTS. OUR RESEARCH INDICATES YOU AMERICANS HAVE TOO MUCH ETHANOL IN YOUR RAIN FALL AND THUSLY YOUR WATER SUPPLY. THAT CAN CAUSE HARM. WE DO NOT ACCEPT LIABILITY FOR ANY CLAIMS RESULTING FROM WATER, THAT WE, THE MOTHER SHIP, HAVE NOT FULLY TESTED AND APPROVED.

 

PLEASE STOP IN AND BUY SOMETHING AT YOUR LOCAL DEALER. THANK YOU!

[Firefight911]

Has BMW redesigned the switch gear or has BMW sent bulletins to tech directing them to use a different method of switch replacement, if it is an installation problem?

 

Uh, yes, as described earlier in this thread the switches have been redesigned.

 

As for how to replace them? Uhh, unplug old one, replace with new one. When this one fails, go get another one, repeat.

 

And ALWAYS remember, if there is a failure in any portion of the BMW motorcycle it is the sole fault of the owner and his inability to use the product per the superior intellect, err, I meant engineering of da faja land. As has been stated, BMW doesn't mess up with design....just ask 'em!

 

Now, sign here and enjoy your new motorcycle. (Heard in background - please, oh please, make it to 36,001 miles. PLEASE!!!!)

[outpost22]

Everything from F-4s to AV-8s, C-130s, A-6s,.....

Man, are you dating yourself or what?

 

You gotta be , like, a billion years old.

[Guest Kakugo]

Hi Thomas. Thankfully you didn't have to go through what I had with Kawasaki to sort some issues on my 1400GTR/C14.

I had more than one dealer lie in my face to avoid carry out warranty work, so devoting workshop time to fixing crashed bikes and fitting tacky aftermarket accessories. Two even flat out refused to see the bike when I rang them up. I tried every single dealer in a 100 miles radius and all failed to deliver, and spectacularly so.

This despite owning a warranty contract which entitled me to have any dealer in Europe carry out warranty work.

I knew what the issue was (a defective rear wheel bearing) and could have fixed it myself easily but there was no way I would do work on a six months old bike.

In the end I sold the bike and was utterly and completely disgusted by the local Kawasaki dealership network and importer.

 

I know how you feel and perfectly understand your frustration.

[Bob Palin]

Hi Thomas. Thankfully you didn't have to go through what I had with Kawasaki to sort some issues on my 1400GTR/C14.

 

That sucks, I'll offset with my Honda story. GL1200A (Gold Wing) alternator fails north of Fairbanks, long past warranty mileage and time. Get it back to dealer in Fairbanks, known problem, Honda overnight new alternator from Oregon, 12 hours labour (drop engine), no charge. I should never have bought a BMW and I won't again.

[MT Wallet]

If I had a suspicious mind I'd think the guy had an agenda to get his bike bought back under a lemmon law. When he couldn't get the job done in Nashville he thought he'd take a run at the dealer in Chattanooga. Perhaps he was having buyer's remorse. Frustrated he couldn't get his way he had a meltdown. Oops, I don't have a suspicious mind, people don't think like that do they?

[Firefight911]

If I had a suspicious mind I'd think the guy had an agenda to get his bike bought back under a lemmon law. When he couldn't get the job done in Nashville he thought he'd take a run at the dealer in Chattanooga. Perhaps he was having buyer's remorse. Frustrated he couldn't get his way he had a meltdown. Oops, I don't have a suspicious mind, people don't think like that do they?

 

Except that it has already been established that BMWNA made the option available to the OP to go to another dealer, which the OP did.

 

Nice conspiracy theory though.

[CoarsegoldKid]

I have nothing to add but thought I was the only person who hadn't participated in this thread and was feeling left out.

I feel for those that have had bad experiences with their BMWs. My RT has 82thousand+ miles and all systems are A okay. Except the damn thing wears out tires. Tomorrow it could all end in tears.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

I have nothing to add but thought I was the only person who hadn't participated in this thread and was feeling left out.

I feel for those that have had bad experiences with their BMWs. My RT has 82thousand+ miles and all systems are A okay. Except the damn thing wears out tires. Tomorrow it could all end in tears.

 

I agree.

[scott r1200rt]

Killer,why would you travel 138000 miles on a brand you would never buy again? Just wondering! If people made there bike buying decision based on what they read on these sites, BMW would be out of business. Not saying they dont deserve some shit, but this bashing fest is getting old. MHO

 

Scott

[ddlewis]

Killer,why would you travel 138000 miles on a brand you would never buy again? Just wondering! If people made there bike buying decision based on what they read on these sites, BMW would be out of business. Not saying they dont deserve some shit, but this bashing fest is getting old. MHO

 

Scott

 

If I had spent time on this board before buying my RT (about this time last year) it would have put me off bmw and I'd be riding an FJR now. Even now some of these posts make me want to run out to the garage to make sure it hasn't spontaneously combusted..

 

fwiw, about 9k miles this year with no problems and I enjoyed the heck out of it. I've done two services and it's so far been a good experience. Have yet to see inside of a beemer dealership, from what I read hope I never do.