"Jap" Used in Referring to Motorcycles

[Firefight911]

This might be interesting. A black football player is upset because, he claims, a black referee called him "boy". I understand where the OP is coming from, and while I cringe when I hear or see "Japanese" in any context, I can honestly say that the only time I've heard it (albeit rarely) here in Hawaii, where AJAs, (Americans of Japanese Ancestry), make up about 18% of the population, is when it was spoken by an AJA. What I think is interesting is how the NFL will deal with this, considering the remark, if it was made, was made by a black man to a black man. Could they come down less severely because of that?

 

Warning to all fathers!!! Do not let your sons see this or you may be sued!!

[russell_bynum]

This might be interesting. A black football player is upset because, he claims, a black referee called him "boy".

 

I don't know the story or the context, but "Boy" was pretty much the universal name that everyone in boys gym class got called by the coach when we weren't living up to his expectations.

 

Do I have a legal case against the Texas Department of Education?

 

[DavidEBSmith]

Apropos this discussion, here's a letter to the editor in the January 2008 Hot Bike Baggers magazine (don't even ask), edited to fall within fair use provisions of copyright law:

 

I just finished reading the November issue, and all I can say is, Alan Mace, Chris Peak and Myron Mixon can kiss my #%* along with any other punks! If you want to ride a piece of Japanese crap, do it in Japan! Does anyone remember Pearl Harbor? My father lost his left leg to the Japs in 1944, after losing his brother at Pearl. It's bad enough that my '05 Firefighter edition Road King has many Japanese crap pieces on it due to the Motor Company's bottom line, but when I see AMERICANS riding Japanese bikes and supporting that country's economy when there should not be a Japan, it makes me see red! It should be a barren, desolate, radioactive wasteland. . . I retired after 28 years from the . . . Fire Department . . and hated the thought of having to even look at someone in a Japanese car or on a Japanese crap bike who I was supposed to be helping . . . I even used a friend's machine shop after hours to build my own frontend just so that it would not have one of those Showa front forks . . .

 

Yeah, I can't imagine how anybody would be touchy about that word. No harm intended. Right.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Maybe it's all because Nihonjin (citizens of Japan living there) and Nikkeijin (people of Japanese decent living abroad) are difficult to spell and pronounce. Even those words are only phonetic approximations of the Japanese tongue. Japanese society, itself, is not without some pretty strong ethnic and cultural bias.

 

While the airplane and the computer have removed the time based isolation, we humans are still saddled with a village mentality and anything that "ain't from here" still gets the hairy eyeball the world over.

[tobyzusa]

I don't know the story or the context, but "Boy" was pretty much the universal name that everyone in boys gym class got called by the coach when we weren't living up to his expectations.

 

True dat.

 

I remember well that fateful day in 7th grade gym class in progressive Greenville, Mississippi. Coach Petro said in a deep terrifying voice,

 

"Boy, bend over, 'cause you got a meeting with The Board of Education "

 

The "Board" had a pattern of strategically drilled holes to ensure maximum effectiveness. I got three whacks that day.

 

Thank God the taser had not yet been invented, 'cause I'm sure Petro would have had one!

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Speaking of slavery, and since the term is in the news today, shouldn't 140 years be enough time for a black man not to take offense to being call "boy?" I mean, come on! It's been over 140 years.

 

Well...again...it depends on the context and the intent.

 

You insensitive Texan! Context is irrelevant. I believe any woman dating a black man ought to be severely rebuked if she refers to him as her boyfriend.

[Ken H.]

Oh! Please, please tell me you photoshoped that together and no supermarket would be that stupid.

[Ken H.]

Everyone, I suspect, draws the line somewhere. It kind of tickles me to see some folks get so sanctimonious just because they draw the line in a different place than someone else does.

But there's more to it than just drawing the line, some of us (certainly me) advocate moving line. Now which direction, that seems to be more of a issue of contention. And in reality that's what societies do all the time. As Leslie pointed out earlier in the thread; life and societies are dynamic and ever changing, that's what personal growth and adaptation is all about.

[Ken H.]

Stereotypes are fun.

Stereotypes are not fun.

 

They are at the very least a disservice to the individuals that do not fit the group they are being lumped into by some characteristic. To use your example, a last name of a particular regional history.

 

While are I suppose there are positive stereotypes, by far and wide they are used derogatorily. And as such, they only damage the human condition, are a major contributor to the misunderstanding of each other, and increase the likelihood of conflicts, pain, and suffering of others on a wide variety of scales. From the casual encounter to global wars.

[Ken H.]

I swear...some of you folks would be offended by your own shadows.

I'm offended by your inference that I would be offended by my shadow.

[Ken H.]

Do you really think the only times I've encountered stereotypes regarding Irishness were in person?

Sean,

 

The problem isn't denial that stereotypes exist, they do, and probably always will, the problem I see is some people in this thread defending the use of them. Defending using know derogatory terms with a, "Oh just get over it" attitude. Their refusal to admit that they are a damaging thing. Over time what is and what isn't offensive waxes and wanes, but that's what progression of language is. What gets my goat is a attitude of insensitivity to the issue, and of others.

[Ken H.]

Maybe there would be if people would quit looking to be offended by every @$%@$@$ thing around them!

Well Matt, let me ask you this question that I think is the crux of Frank's original request - What do we loose by trying a bit to not offend others? What do you loose by not using the word "Japanese", or any other derogatory term about a group of humans?

 

I just don't see the downside to trying to treat others a little bit better however and whenever we can. Including on a Internet forum about BMW (or Japanese brand) motorcycles.

[George Brown]

The problem isn't denial that stereotypes exist, they do, and probably always will, the problem I see is some people in this thread defending the use of them. Defending using know derogatory terms with a, "Oh just get over it" attitude. Their refusal to admit that they are a damaging thing. Over time what is and what isn't offensive waxes and wanes, but that's what progression of language is. What gets my goat is a attitude of insensitivity to the issue, and of others.

+1

[Ken H.]

Still w/Greg here.

Me too! You go Greg!

Making reparations does not erase the event from our history.

Nor does perpetuation and continuing use of derogatory terms and stereotypes that were the foundation of those awful events in human history.

Failing to learn from our mistakes will lead us into a future where we reflect on just how sad our past has been.

How's the saying go, those that forget (or never knew) the past are doomed to repeat it.

Accepting an expression of prejudice as merely an unintentional consequence of the offended person's thin epidermis is not the way I want to interact.

Nor I.

[Ken H.]

So...is there an expiration date on stuff like this (and maybe we just haven't gotten there yet?)

But see, that's the core thing Russell; we're perpetuating the 'offense', admittedly in a much smaller/different scale, by continuing to use terms that reference it. Using"Japanese" makes a reference to looking down on the Japanese during WWII and continues the, at least appearance, that the user of the term still does look down on them. "Gook" the same for the Vietnamese from during the Vietnam war. And "boy" in certian uses that a person is still be being viewed as they might of been during slavery. The list goes on. The use of derogatory stereotyping terms hurts the cause of forgiving, healing, and moving on. And I think despite several efforts in this thread, it is indefensible.

[Ken H.]

I suppose if we as the RECEPTORs of those words would stop giving those who use them the POWER to hurt their sensitivities then those words will fall from favor for other ones that do offend.

Ah, blame the victim raises it's head yet again...

[Ken H.]

A hard-and-fast "no Japanese" policy on the part of JACL would carry the message that JACL's members are not very enlightened.

Once again - We're not talking about rules here, we're talking about having understanding and respect for others. Sigh... I give up...

[SageRider]

So...is there an expiration date on stuff like this (and maybe we just haven't gotten there yet?)

But see, that's the core thing Russell; we're perpetuating the 'offense', admittedly in a much smaller/different scale, by continuing to use terms that reference it. Using"Japanese" makes a reference to looking down on the Japanese during WWII and continues the, at least appearance, that the user of the term still does look down on them. "Gook" the same for the Vietnamese from during the Vietnam war. And "boy" in certian uses that a person is still be being viewed as they might of been during slavery. The list goes on. The use of derogatory stereotyping terms hurts the cause of forgiving, healing, and moving on. And I think despite several efforts in this thread, it is indefensible.

The problem I see with this argument is that for "Japanese" it appears to state that all usage is derogatory and therefore "Japanese" should never be used, however, "boy" is only derogatory in certain applications and therefore may be used when non-derogatory.

Why is it OK to use "boy" in it's non derogatory applications but it is not OK to use "Japanese" in it's non derogatory applications?

[russell_bynum]

Apropos this discussion, here's a letter to the editor in the January 2008 Hot Bike Baggers magazine (don't even ask), edited to fall within fair use provisions of copyright law:

 

I just finished reading the November issue, and all I can say is, Alan Mace, Chris Peak and Myron Mixon can kiss my #%* along with any other punks! If you want to ride a piece of Japanese crap, do it in Japan! Does anyone remember Pearl Harbor? My father lost his left leg to the Japs in 1944, after losing his brother at Pearl. It's bad enough that my '05 Firefighter edition Road King has many Japanese crap pieces on it due to the Motor Company's bottom line, but when I see AMERICANS riding Japanese bikes and supporting that country's economy when there should not be a Japan, it makes me see red! It should be a barren, desolate, radioactive wasteland. . . I retired after 28 years from the . . . Fire Department . . and hated the thought of having to even look at someone in a Japanese car or on a Japanese crap bike who I was supposed to be helping . . . I even used a friend's machine shop after hours to build my own frontend just so that it would not have one of those Showa front forks . . .

 

Yeah, I can't imagine how anybody would be touchy about that word. No harm intended. Right.

 

That guy rides a Harley and said that stuff, so everyone who rides a Harley must be a racist!!!!

 

BAN HARLEYS!!!!!!

 

 

 

Clearly, that person is a racist. As I said, the context is important. "Japanese Crap" is clearly a derogatory term and the rest of that guy's post makes it pretty clear where he stands.

 

If you can't see the difference between me saying "Japanese Bike" in the context of me talking about how great they are, and that guy's rant (Which I know you can), then I'm not sure what to tell you.

[SeanC]

there are positive stereotypes

Stereotypes are not positive, Ken. Shame on you for suggesting such a thing. I mean, really.

[SeanC]

Sigh... I give up...

Oh please don't! I'd so miss your copying and pasting of snippets without context for the purpose of your mini lectures about how sensitive you are! [insert smiley of your choice here]

[Matts_12GS]

Sigh... I give up...

Oh please don't! I'd so miss your copying and pasting of snippets without context for the purpose of your mini lectures about how sensitive you are! [insert smiley of your choice here]

 

[Matts_12GS]

Ah, blame the victim raises it's head yet again...

 

Ken, I know you'd never admit this, but Frank isn't a victim he is the one in charge of the situation because he is (or should be) in charge of his feelings.

He has a choice of how he reacts to the situation. Victims don't have that option. He's a learned man, I would expect him to be able to make that distinction.

 

Well Matt, let me ask you this question that I think is the crux of Frank's original request - What do we loose by trying a bit to not offend others? What do you loose by not using the word "Japanese", or any other derogatory term about a group of humans?

 

I just don't see the downside to trying to treat others a little bit better however and whenever we can.

 

Ken, there is no issue with trying to be nicer or kinder or more gentle or whatever term you care to insert here. Nobody has ever said that.

 

But, it has to be a two way street. If Frank expects people to respect his wishes then he must respect their sensitivities as well and address them as individuals that may or may not know that this is offensive to him. After all, this is a motorcycle forum, and the term in question has been part of the motorcycling community's lexicon for decades, right or wrong.

 

This is an anonymous forum, send a PM for goodness sake, and say "Hey, that bugs me, would you mind not doing that?" That simple show of respect, taking that simple risk would open up that communication needed to alter the behavior in question or expose the bigotry of the poster. If it didn't fix the situation, then going to the moderators of this forum and asking them for action is certainly justified. Lastly, there's the magic ignore button.

 

I'm fairly certain that there is nobody on this board who seeks out people to offend, or new ways to do it. As such, had this been handled in a PM or an email, I'm confident it would have been over almost immediately.

 

Instead Frank made a blanket pronouncement that a vowel and two consonants offended him and therefore we must all change lest we be guilty of a thought crime. There are probably 10,000 or better people on this forum who wouldn't even speak with that particular combination of vowel and consonants on the receiving end of that demand without cause and that's inappropriate.

 

So, Ken... Is asking that a person to at least ATTEMPT to resolve a problem themselves out of the question? Is that expectation amongst adults outdated in this age of the nanny state?

 

That, I dare say is an issue of personal philosophy that could drag this conversation into politics and belief systems.

[TyTass]

So, OK, I've been laying back a bit watching Greg carry the load.

 

Let me ask a clarifying question to all us white guys.

 

Why didn't we round up all the Germans in the US and toss them in camps? The answer to this question might be enlightening if you care to THINK!

My last preach on this subject ... (I'm sure many are thankful of that).

 

Scott (siding with Greg), I often find myself admiring your logic, but not here.

 

Are you suggesting that everyone opposed to your viewpoint believes that prejudice has not occurred? Please don't be ridiculous. Of course it has. But it has occurred for more than just racial divisions. There is indeed a correct answer to your question about the US Govt not rounding up of all those of German ancestry during WWII and putting them into internment camps. If you wish to simplify it down to the point it was a racial issues, then yes let's do that. However, the fact remains that the a complete answer comprises historical details which include federal surveillance, unlawful imprisionments, and the pain and suffering brought on by the public (beatings, burings, vandalism, etc.) which went unchallenged by authorities.

 

Granted all of those events were far less than what was endured by those of Japanese ancestry at that time.

 

So, I ask you a similar questions of you as I did to another earlier. Given a position of claiming to be hyper-aware and sympathetic to wrongful categorizations of people ...

1) How can you be comfortable ignoring any wrongs based on ethnicity, dismissing them simply because they were white-on-white?

2) How can you be comfortable giving preference to one group's pain and suffering while dismissing anothers because theirs doesn't cross your threshold of severity (or is it just awareness)?

3) How it is you are comfortable addressing "all white guys" on this board as though you know what their backgrouds are, as though you are not engaging in negative stereotyping?

Most importantly ...

4) Why do you think no one on this board chose to object to the use of the term "Japanese bike" (nearly 100 opportunities this year as Hermes pointed out) before Frank did?

 

If the use of "Japanese bike" was so obvious a racial slur - one that all, most, or even any Japanese-Americans would find offensive regardles of the originator's intent or apology afterwards (that is a fair the position being argued) - then I am left to conclude that either:

 

a) None of you who share this opinion in this post were ever involved in any of the posts where the term was used

OR

b) If you who share this opinion were involved, then you lack the courage of your convictions and let the wrong deeds go unchecked.

 

BTW: After a quick check the names of several of you are most vocal about that opinion on this issue not only show up in threads where "Japanese bike" was used, but I found two instances where the term was quoted. (It wasn't you, Scott - but still ... Yikes!)

 

Knowing that, is it time for those people to apologize to Frank? Should he care about the lack of malicious intent or oversight? Or do we not acknowledge that we are all human and accept that we will err? That intent IS important - in fact, it is almost everything. And that without sincerity and compassion in our actions, our word means nothing.

[DavidEBSmith]

Oh! Please, please tell me you photoshoped that together and no supermarket would be that stupid.

 

Balducci's in NYC.

 

http://nancykayshapiro.livejournal.com/35633.html

 

Even better, they had a selection of Chanukah hams:

 

 

[Huzband]

Sigh... I give up...

Oh please don't! I'd so miss your copying and pasting of snippets without context for the purpose of your mini lectures about how sensitive you are! [insert smiley of your choice here]

 

Gosh, I almost wish I had said that.

 

 

Almost.

[DavidEBSmith]

If you can't see the difference between me saying "Japanese Bike" in the context of me talking about how great they are, and that guy's rant (Which I know you can), then I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

Herein lies the problem. When the Harley guy says "Japanese Bike" he's a racist, when you say "Japanese Bike" it's said with love and the best of intentions. How does Frank tell the difference? From context? Tone of voice? Knowing you and knowing that you're not a racist like the Harley guy?

 

Why should it be Frank's burden to determine whether you meant a derogatory meaning or not?

 

There are some people who are always going on about people taking responsibility for their own actions. So how about in this situation? If you say something, and you're ignorant of the fact that it may be offensive to a listener, or you're aware of the fact and just don't care, why shouldn't it be your responsibility to communicate your message in a way that it can't be taken for a racist rant? People need to take responsibility for their own actions, and bear the consequences. It's not Frank's job to decipher the potential meanings of what you say, it's your job to say it clearly and unambiguously.

 

There was another thread about the mortgage crisis and a whole bunch of people took the position that if consumers were too ignorant to know what they were signing, and to understand the potential effects of a rate increase, they should be the ones to suffer the consequences. The same applies here - if people are too ignorant to understand what they're saying, and the potential effects on another person, they should be the ones to suffer the consequences.

[Dave McReynolds]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As I said, it just depends on where you draw the line.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

I think you're the one eager to draw lines. First, by butchering Frank's arguments regarding source and listener. Second, by insisting that I'm drawing lines. Now, I will agree that I consider "Japanese bike" to have offensive and derogatory connotations, and I don't believe a word of anyone who says they use it solely as an abbreviation; I fully believe those people are, at best, deluding themselves.

 

The thing I don't think you understand, Greg, is that I was not trying to put you into a box by suggesting that you draw lines; actually, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I was assuming that you applied the same level of critical thinking that I'm sure you use in law school to this issue, decided that Frank had a legitimate bitch, and decided to draw your line somewhere north of using the term "Japanese bike."

 

I will accept that you don't draw lines, that you accept anyone's statements at face value without any critical evaluation of them, if you want me to. But if that's the case, then I suggest you get used to using the term "differently hirsuted" in the future when referring to my bald spot. I may have been kidding, but there is a chance I was serious, and I know you wouldn't want to offend me in any way.

 

On the other hand, if you misunderstood what I meant by drawing lines, and do have one of your own drawn somewhere north of "Japanese bike," then rather than dismissing the position out of hand of those whose line is south of that point, you might at least consider that they applied the same critical reasoning that you did.

 

Reasonable people can conclude that claims that people are offended should not always result in changes by others; sometimes the change needs to come from within the person making the claim.

 

And yes, the line does move.

[SageRider]

If you can't see the difference between me saying "Japanese Bike" in the context of me talking about how great they are, and that guy's rant (Which I know you can), then I'm not sure what to tell you.

 

Herein lies the problem. When the Harley guy says "Japanese Bike" he's a racist, when you say "Japanese Bike" it's said with love and the best of intentions. How does Frank tell the difference? From context? Tone of voice? Knowing you and knowing that you're not a racist like the Harley guy?

 

Why should it be Frank's burden to determine whether you meant a derogatory meaning or not?

 

There are some people who are always going on about people taking responsibility for their own actions. So how about in this situation? If you say something, and you're ignorant of the fact that it may be offensive to a listener, or you're aware of the fact and just don't care, why shouldn't it be your responsibility to communicate your message in a way that it can't be taken for a racist rant? People need to take responsibility for their own actions, and bear the consequences. It's not Frank's job to decipher the potential meanings of what you say, it's your job to say it clearly and unambiguously.

 

There was another thread about the mortgage crisis and a whole bunch of people took the position that if consumers were too ignorant to know what they were signing, and to understand the potential effects of a rate increase, they should be the ones to suffer the consequences. The same applies here - if people are too ignorant to understand what they're saying, and the potential effects on another person, they should be the ones to suffer the consequences.

Of course your logic also assumes that if one is so ignorant that they get offended by a phrase regardless of whether or not it's intention is derogatory, they should be the ones to suffer the consequences.

[Matts_12GS]

Of course your logic also assumes that if one is so ignorant that they get offended by a phrase regardless of whether or not it's intention is derogatory, they should be the ones to suffer the consequences.

 

Works for me...

Well said Michael!

[russell_bynum]

Herein lies the problem. When the Harley guy says "Japanese Bike" he's a racist, when you say "Japanese Bike" it's said with love and the best of intentions. How does Frank tell the difference? From context? Tone of voice? Knowing you and knowing that you're not a racist like the Harley guy?

 

Well yeah...all of those things. In this particular case, since I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Frank face to face, the context is what's important.

 

Why should it be Frank's burden to determine whether you meant a derogatory meaning or not?

 

Because that's how communication works. You say something, I have to interpret that and figure out what you mean. Then I say something and you figure out what I mean. We do this using context, tone of voice, body language, knowledge of a person's character/personality, and of course...our own personal experiences and prejudices. In this case, we're ignoring everything except the very last item.

 

That's just not a good way to communicate.

 

It's not Frank's job to decipher the potential meanings of what you say,

 

Wrong.

 

it's your job to say it clearly and unambiguously.

 

Correct!

[beemerman2k]

I remember back when I was in college in Boston, MA, I had a math professor who was from Japan. I was in the cafeteria getting some lunch when I saw him sitting by himself, so since there were some issues that we covered in class that I didn't fully understand, I figured I'd join him so I could get further clarification on the matters.

 

After he explained things to me, we sat there eating our food quietly for a few minutes. Then he look up at me, and quietly spoke in the most intense, passion filled voice, something like, "…all these people think I have forgotten Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I haven't. I'll never forget."

 

I just sat there in stunned silence; that was pretty much the end of that conversation. I finished the course and never saw him again. But man, what a "history" lesson!

 

I do not believe for a micro-second that the bulk of Japanese people hold these views, but like any of our racial, ethnic, or national "groups", I am sure there are a slice of the Japanese population that do. Anyhow, I don't share this experience to justify any anti-Japanese sentiment. I guess I really share it to suggest that hatred and bitterness are not uniquely American vices, and that they are destructive of all who allow them into their hearts.

 

"Bitterness only destroys the vessel that contains it" - Ruben "Hurricane" Carter, a professional boxer who was convicted and imprisoned for quite some time for a murder he apparently did not commit.

[marcopolo]

Now that I've invested the time to read all of this, I decided -- after much waffling -- to add my two cents worth. Long before Frank posted his observations/request, I cringed every time I read a post with "Japanese" in it. It's because I've always considered it offensive, no matter the context (I'm in my mid-fifties, by the way). Whenever I've seen it used on this site, I never recall thinking the user meant it to be offensive; nevertheless I wished they hadn't.

 

I think Frank did us all a service by pointing out that Japanese is a pejorative term. What we do from here is each individual's decision.

 

As an aside, for the few (thankfully) who trotted out the "Remember Pearl Harbor" defence, it reminded me of my father, who incidentally died 24 years ago today. He spent 6 years in the army during WWII, including a year of combat throughout Europe after D-Day. He was a tough soldier, and he was in the business of killing the enemy. Since I could remember, I never once heard him speak of Germans in a derogatory way; he also made it quite clear to me when I was young that, as far as he and many of his generation were concerned, "Japanese" was a pejorative term, no matter the context, or the intent. I have a feeling that he would have agreed with Frank's position, and thought it easy to comply with his simple request.

[hANNAbONE]

iS tHIS thread STILL going..!! daaaaaaaaaaaaaang

 

[russell_bynum]

iS tHIS thread STILL going..!! daaaaaaaaaaaaaang

 

 

At this point, we're just keeping it going for your amusement.

[Tony_K]

iS tHIS thread STILL going..!! daaaaaaaaaaaaaang

 

 

At this point, we're just keeping it going for your amusement.

 

and now for something completely different

 

[George Brown]

I remember back when I was in college in Boston, MA, I had a math professor who was from Japan. I was in the cafeteria getting some lunch when I saw him sitting by himself, so since there were some issues that we covered in class that I didn't fully understand, I figured I'd join him so I could get further clarification on the matters.

 

After he explained things to me, we sat there eating our food quietly for a few minutes. Then he look up at me, and quietly spoke in the most intense, passion filled voice, something like, "…all these people think I have forgotten Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I haven't. I'll never forget."

 

I just sat there in stunned silence; that was pretty much the end of that conversation. I finished the course and never saw him again. But man, what a "history" lesson!

 

I do not believe for a micro-second that the bulk of Japanese people hold these views, but like any of our racial, ethnic, or national "groups", I am sure there are a slice of the Japanese population that do. Anyhow, I don't share this experience to justify any anti-Japanese sentiment. I guess I really share it to suggest that hatred and bitterness are not uniquely American vices, and that they are destructive of all who allow them into their hearts.

 

"Bitterness only destroys the vessel that contains it" - Ruben "Hurricane" Carter, a professional boxer who was convicted and imprisoned for quite some time for a murder he apparently did not commit.

+1 Very Good Post.

 

But, I must admit to having some negative feelings about your math prof. For example, he couldn't or wouldn't forget HOWEVER he could live here and make a living from us in peace.

 

I can think of a lot of questions about your exchange with the prof such as,

1. Had he forgiven us? You intimated that he hadn't because of his intensity.

2. What was he remembering? The loss to his nation and people or, that Americans caused the loss or, both.

3. etc. etc.

 

What is important? Forgiving or forgetting. As a Christian, I've learned the God does both and we should also.

[Ron_B]

As an aside, for the few (thankfully) who trotted out the "Remember Pearl Harbor" defence, it reminded me of my father, who incidentally died 24 years ago today. He spent 6 years in the army during WWII, including a year of combat throughout Europe after D-Day. He was a tough soldier, and he was in the business of killing the enemy. Since I could remember, I never once heard him speak of Germans in a derogatory way; he also made it quite clear to me when I was young that, as far as he and many of his generation were concerned, "Japanese" was a pejorative term, no matter the context, or the intent. I have a feeling that he would have agreed with Frank's position, and thought it easy to comply with his simple request.

 

 

 

My Dad was much the same way. A veteran of the battle of Okinawa, he never seemed to harbor malice toward Japanese, of anyone else for that matter. Using any kind of ethic slur seemed as foreign to him as speaking Urdu.

 

Apropos that tomorrow is the anniversary of Pearl Harbor. It was said on this thread that time heals all wounds. True that, but only if one lets go of the bitterness. Many of that war's survivors were eventually able to do just that:

 

WWII foes embrace

 

Japanese pilot became reconciliation icon

[beemerman2k]

+1 Very Good Post.

 

But, I must admit to having some negative feelings about your math prof. For example, he couldn't or wouldn't forget HOWEVER he could live here and make a living from us in peace.

 

I can think of a lot of questions about your exchange with the prof such as,

1. Had he forgiven us? You intimated that he hadn't because of his intensity.

2. What was he remembering? The loss to his nation and people or, that Americans caused the loss or, both.

3. etc. etc.

 

What is important? Forgiving or forgetting. As a Christian, I've learned the God does both and we should also.

 

I have often wondered where his anger stemmed from myself. I don't know as I didn't ask him for any clarification; I was just so surprised that he felt that way, and that he decided to tell me about it!

 

I wonder if he lost family in that blast? My guess is that he was, maybe, in his early 50's when we spoke (c 1982), so he had to have been a young man of about 13 years of age when that terrible event occurred.

 

I have no idea where the source of his anger lies; your guess is as good as mine.

 

What is important? Forgiving or forgetting. As a Christian, I've learned the God does both and we should also.

 

Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. Personally, I believe Jesus encourages us to pray for our enemies because they are in pain. They are literally prisoners of the past -- unable to breath free and clean air and live a free life of peace! That teacher of mine was in pain, pure and simple.

[philbytx]

IMHO, you appear a little oversensitive Frank.

Some motorcycle folks refer to "Brit bikes"...and some do so in derision (oil leaks, LPOD electrics) and some derogatorily and I do not feel insulted when Americans refer to me as a Limey!

 

IMHO, when most people refer to a motorcycle as a "Japanese bike" it is usually meant derogatorily but towards the BIKE by the owner of a bike of another non-Japanese brand.

 

"Germ bike" referring to German machinery certainly doesn't associate well but you can call an English bike a "Brit Bike" and a Japanese bike a "Japanese bike" with firm national association. In the UK, us nationalistic motorcycle (and car!) types referred to American cars (derogatorily ) as "Yank Tanks" and, in many cases, Japanese machinery as "Japanese Crap".....it just worked linguistically is all.

 

Due deference was always given to fine engineering but sometimes you pull for your own team and the other team get's derided just because they ARE the other team.

 

I wouldn't take it so personally.....but, then again, I am not you.

[exwingnut]

"Germ bike" referring to German machinery certainly doesn't associate well but you can call an English bike a "Brit Bike" and a Japanese bike a "Japanese bike" with firm national association. In the UK, us nationalistic motorcycle (and car!) types referred to American cars (derogatorily ) as "Yank Tanks" and, in many cases, Japanese machinery as "Japanese Crap".....it just worked linguistically is all.

 

Due deference was always given to fine engineering but sometimes you pull for your own team and the other team get's derided just because they ARE the other team.

 

I always wondered why BMW escapes the derogatory branding of GERM or GER bike...maybe it is due to all the Harley riders who popularized the term "Japanese Crap" when deriding the early Hondas liking German style Helmets, swasticas, and Iron Crosses so much; or possibly that fact that some of these same 'enthusiasts' (pronounced 'bigots') were in fact of German heritage themselves.

 

It is a whole lot easier to pick on someone who is different than yourself, no?

 

My apologies Frank for the above typed racial diminutive. I have always abhorred that term for just the reason that you do, using someones ethnicity as a derogatory perjorative is insensitive at best.

 

Thanks to all the posters in this so far, what a great discussion; and great thanks to the owners/moderators for allowing it to continue.

[Stir]

IThen he look up at me, and quietly spoke in the most intense, passion filled voice, something like, "…all these people think I have forgotten Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but I haven't. I'll never forget."

 

Did you tell him that the Chinese and Filipinos hadn't forgotten our efforts over there either?

[philbytx]

The same applies here - if people are too ignorant to understand what they're saying, and the potential effects on another person, they should be the ones to suffer the consequences.

 

What consequences ???

[90RedRider]

WOW I have new found respect for Beemer suspension after seeing all that Bacon on that little yellow bike. No disrespect for your girlfriend or wife, but she is a big girl. After leaning into a turn, will the bike actually stand back up or do you have to just slow and lay it down and then take off again.

[Jones]

...It should be a barren, desolate, radioactive wasteland. . . I retired after 28 years from the . . . Fire Department . . and hated the thought of having to even look at someone in a Japanese car or on a Japanese crap bike who I was supposed to be helping...

 

I cannot believe my eyes. Let me guess what Fire Department that was. I would recognize one of my old quint driver's trademark rants ANYWHERE. Man, I listened to that crap over an otherwise fine firehouse dinner for YEARS. At least the guy was better than Dish Network.

 

SHUT UP SCOOTER!!!

 

Goodgooglymooglies.

[Bud]

Little late to this party but it caused me to do a lot of thinking.

 

Since we were at Pearl Harbor last Saturday, I wondered what the Japanese tourist were thinking when the film was on showing the attack. I also wondered why they would choose to visit the Arizona memorial. Speaking fluent Japanese with each other in organized groups, I made the assumption they were tourist from Japan. A reasonable assumption I think and one you would have most likely made if you had been there at the same time.

 

Secondly, I'm always amused that we can use an abbreviation for an offensive word but not the word itself, as though it made any difference. i.e. the "N" word.

 

Third, aren't those who are offended over PC just as thin skinned as those who are offended for any other reason?

 

I have been impressed with the thoughtful discourse contained within this thread. Differences of opinion have been expressed, sometimes very strongly, without a lot of personal attack.

 

I had a boss who told me I was privileged and would get ahead because I was a tall, WASP male. He was trying to tell me to be more self aware.

 

Hopefully, all who have participated in or lurked this thread have had a chance to examine themselves regarding this issue.

 

Regards

[BeniciaRT_GT]

I've been stayin out of this, but now it's my turn.

 

I don't care who ya are or where your from. If you ask me nicely to not use a word because it bothers you I won't do it out of respect for your feelings.

 

For example...Richard asked me not to use the words, small, short, shrimpy, little or micro around him and I of course have honored his wishes. Because I respect his feelings and would feel the same way if I was in his position.

 

 

 

 

Whip

 

 

As usual, little fact, but plenty of something:

 

 

(thanks Mitch!)

 

 

I can't say anything about slow, as it has to "mentally challenged" so I guess that's fair.

[knight88]

I've been stayin out of this, but now it's my turn.

 

I don't care who ya are or where your from. If you ask me nicely to not use a word because it bothers you I won't do it out of respect for your feelings.

 

A+ I'm with you if I say something that offends someone I'll stop saying it, out of respect for your request. If I continue offending that person then I'm really a real jerk. Wait a minute did I just call myself a jerk?

[jackflash]

I’ve always thought this was a wonderful community of riders sharing common interests. I’ve welcomed it as an important aspect of the BMW experience. Even before I had a bike, when I was considering buying, I was reading the postings here. I have benefited on numerous occasions from the comments others have made, and I’ve enjoyed participating in wonderful discussions of many topics not limited to our shared passion for riding.

 

In that spirit, then, I wanted to mention a particular issue. I want to ensure I do so in a positive, non-accusatory manner. I don’t want to be hypersensitive, but I don’t believe I can just let this pass without comment.

 

The issue is that sometimes people here use “Japanese” to refer to Japanese, in particular the motorcycles. Some people have thought, I am sure sincerely, that “Japanese” was an abbreviation. Perhaps they have used it without malice, or much deliberation. But the term has a history, as applied to not only products but also people, that shows it is a racial slur, like “Chink” or “Gook,” used to refer to Japanese as well as Japanese Americans, the distinction crucial, and other Asian Americans too. While people should feel free to express themselves however they wish, I hope they can be persuaded that “Japanese” is destructive of the sense of belonging and equality we have fostered so successfully. (I once raised this issue on a different board, and received so many negative comments, I stopped bothering to look at that board; oddly, the moderators removed my original post at some point, presumably because it was too controversial. This community seems more open minded.)

 

Thank you for considering this.

 

You should feel fortunate that's the only name the Japanese seem to be called. My father, who was a Marine in the Pacific has other names for them. I have two uncles from the other side of the family that think even less of "Japs". One was a POW and the other island hopped in the Pacific. And have you ever read what went on in China?

 

You shouldn't feel offended but ashamed. The 1940's was not that long ago and the U. S. Govt. purposefully taught the use of the word "Japanese" and the subsequent disrespect for the name and people. A lot of it still sticks today and that shouldn't be a surprise.

 

What are you thinking? Yes, I'm prejudiced with no regrets. It's just my family. This topic shouldn't have been brought up but since this was solicited, take it.

[ghaverkamp]

You shouldn't feel offended but ashamed. The 1940's was not that long ago and the U. S. Govt. purposefully taught the use of the word "Japanese" and the subsequent disrespect for the name and people. A lot of it still sticks today and that shouldn't be a surprise.

 

What are you thinking? Yes, I'm prejudiced with no regrets. It's just my family. This topic shouldn't have been brought up but since this was solicited, take it.

 

*shudder*