"Jap" Used in Referring to Motorcycles

[hANNAbONE]

Third, issues of race are especially difficult to raise for civil discourse. All of us have our own views, formed by personal experiences, many of which are crucial to our sense of who we are even if we are barely aware of their importance in influencing identity. I don’t have any problem with disagreement, even blunt, strong disagreement, with the trade policies of Tokyo, the products from Honda, and so on. My concern is with the prospects of individuals and communities that are of Asian background, but which are American, that are affected due to the anger of people directed toward Asia. So the Aerostich sticker about Japanese products is, in my view, quite different from an attack on Asian Americans – so long as people can distinguish.

 

“Japanese” has a long history of use as a term of denigration. It is difficult for me to see how someone who wishes to interact with Asian Americans in general or me in particular would use it, without irony, expecting it to be accepted as just any other adjective. At a minimum I would have expected that a request to reflect on the matter would be received better. People may feel free to say “Japanese” this or “Japanese” that all they want, but I don’t intend to be part of a community that tolerates such nonsense.

 

I want to understand you getting upset by this Frank but it isn't working for me. Been called a Kraut or Nazi a lot in my life and frankly I don't get that stirred up about it since I wasn't around till 1967. When someone refers to old Uncle Adolf when talking about VW's or BMW's I own, I don't have my blood pressure go up 30 points. The term Japanese in our culture today has little to do with the turn of the century Frank. In fact it has little to do with racial slurs at all. You can say it might be more to do with the boys from Osaka dropping by Hawaii this week 66 years ago. Add to that the fact that post war a lot of cheap goods came from Japan and the term "Japanese Crap" is much more in context.

 

Even 60 years after the fact, we still have a culture that shows the effects of WWII. I think the Japanese have gotten the better end of the deal actually. Lets be honest "The Hitler Channel" usually has Japanese shows about the way of the Samurai on in between "Goring and Space Aliens" and "Hitler's Secret Stamp Collection". Most people have no idea who Tojo was. To the victor goes the spoils amigo.

 

Have a nice evening.

 

Kaisr

 

 

+1

[Frank H. Wu]

Yup, I did write a book. Much of the book is about how people of color who don’t really want to spend their time being professional minorities (spokespeople, etc.) still end up having to devote a substantial part of their lives to these issues. In a funny, tangential way, this too is related to riding: part of why I enjoy is getting on a bike and vanishing into normality. On my BMW, I’m a rider identified by my choice of ride, suit, and perhaps some assumptions about who engages in this activity; but, for the most part, people have no idea who I am underneath. Part of the book also is about how ambiguous and complex these issues are. At no point in this thread have I suggested anybody was a bigot (other than me – I probably am, in the subconscious way that human beings can be). My interest is in getting people to think about one little thing. If people don’t want to do that, okay, that’s their decision. I haven’t made any threats; I said explicitly in my last post I intended to stick around here. One of the great things about the internet is anonymity. I’ve never been willing to use a handle, just because it hasn’t felt right. But I respect that other people do, almost everyone in fact. Does it matter that I have written a book (and articles and other stuff)? What if I posted under a pseudonym to raise awareness of this issue?

 

Think of it this way. I've made maybe 150 posts here. 149 of the 150 have had nothing to do with race. I make 1 post that asks a question -- it doesn't condemn anyone or say you have to do anything. It's just a plea. Is that too much? It's just from years of being called names as a kid and as a grown-up, just a request I make to some friends I've made here in virtual reality but for the most part never met in the flesh.

 

In any event, it has been a great place – I have said that repeatedly in the past six years. I haven’t seen any other website devoted to anything I’m into that has this commitment to discussion.

 

So keep the shiny side up. See you on the road.

[MotorinLA]

I haven’t made any threats;…

 

“Japanese” has a long history of use as a term of denigration. It is difficult for me to see how someone who wishes to interact with Asian Americans in general or me in particular would use it, without irony, expecting it to be accepted as just any other adjective. At a minimum I would have expected that a request to reflect on the matter would be received better. People may feel free to say “Japanese” this or “Japanese” that all they want, but I don’t intend to be part of a community that tolerates such nonsense.

 

The problem with putting things in writing is that it makes it a lot harder to deny later…

[Frank H. Wu]

Well, I don't know how to do the "quote" thing on a reply, but I also said clearly:

 

Anyway, I’ll stick around. I was actually about to answer someone’s question about “why BMW?” by saying that there is a community of riders out there (Anonymous book, this website, lots of other indicators) that beats any other brand.

 

It isn't encouraging that an effort to ask, in a non-accusatory manner, whether people might refrain from using a term that is regarded by many as a racial slur, is regarded as a hyper-sensitive, PC threat. Come on, it's "Japanese" versus "Japanese." Want to say you think Japanese bikes are crap? Have at it. Japanese policies are unfair? Sure. We shouldn't buy Japanese products or be allies with Japan? No problem. It's just that "Japanese" is, for many Asian Americans, little different than the n-word. I don't use "Kraut" or other derogatory terms, as far as that goes, and if someone here said, hey, "Kraut" causes a problem for me, I'd hope the rest of us would say, yeah, we get it.

[Jim VonBaden]

HI Frank,

 

I generally do not use the word "Japanese". Then again it is not because of any PC urge on my part. Those that know me know I am decidedly NOT PC. I simply don't like the word. As a student of history I understand the negative connotations of the word, and I prefer not to use it. This is the same for "Jew". Though most Jewish people do not mind, I dislike the use of it in the form: "He is a Jew."

 

To me using words means something. That said, I also very much dislike the distinction "American" when tied to an origin such as African, Japanese, Mexican. If you are an American, your origins are not relevant. You should respect and know your heritage, but most of us come from somewhere and to label ourselves is just another form of self segregation!

 

I am an American! That my family comes from Germany means little when referring to me. I am not offended by words such as Kraut, or Adolf when someone refers to me, any more than I am offended by being called a cracker or honkey. I AM offended by being called a liar or bigot, because THAT describes me inaccurately, and offensively, unlike referring to my race.

 

Anyhow, I hope you don't take offense to my comments, and I hope you come visit us in your local area BMW club www.bmwbmw.org .

 

Jim

[steve.foote]

Frank, this may be the oddest thread I have ever read on this forum. I really don't know what to make of it, but you seem to be seriously concerned about how people perceive you. Until you brought it to my attention in this thread, I had never given any thought to your ethnicity.

[Bill_Walker]

I am an American! That my family comes from Germany means little when referring to me. I am not offended by words such as Kraut, or Adolf when someone refers to me, any more than I am offended by being called a cracker or honkey. I AM offended by being called a liar or bigot, because THAT describes me inaccurately, and offensively, unlike referring to my race.

 

Hear, hear! Although I suppose (Tom, note this) that it's a lot easier for those of us who are white to say this. Our heritage is not identifiable just by looking at us, in general (although certain traits tend to hail from certain regions). People had to get to know you or Tom, or at least know your names, before they could call you Krauts. I would imagine that people could call Frank derogatory Asian names after just looking at him (though based on his name, I would have guessed him to be of Chinese heritage rather than Japanese. But what do I know?). Because of this, we haven't had the "opportunities" to develop hypersensitivity that people of color have had. So I'm thinking we should cut 'em a little slack.

 

But I do tend to agree with your premise: if you're an American citizen, you should call yourself an American, without reference to whatever race or culture you hail from. Emphasizing your differences tends to strengthen, rather than weaken, stereotypes.

 

Apropos of nothing, Frank, given the title of your book, is it significant that your sig points out that your bike is yellow? I mean no offense by this, I was just struck by the coincidence.

 

Bill, an English-Irish-Scottish-French-German-American. NOT!

[bakerzdosen]

(Generally, I imagine Frank has given more thought to this issue than most of us.)

Yeah, you know, I had that book on the shelf for a while there. My X (of Chinese descent) owned it and used it for her Masters - as that was pretty much the topic of her thesis.

 

When we first got married, I really felt like she felt the world was out to get her because of her race. She saw race in things I couldn't possibly believe. And then she did things that I felt were mildy racist (like saying "hola chiquita" to a little girl who was brown without any other indication that she was of hispanic descent.)

 

My point is this: Some people see rascism where others do not. And yes, the typical white male (of which classification I am a member) will not see rascism where some minorities will. Look, I hate that we've come to that. I MUCH prefer Latin culture where, if someone looks fat, they get the nickname "Gordo". It's not offensive to them, it just is what it is. The same thing applies to race. You call it how you see it. Getting offended by something is purely made up as part of a culture.

 

However.

 

It does exist. And that's the problem (as I see it.)

 

See, you can argue until you're blue in the face that several four letter words aren't offensive just because society has deemed them profane. The fact is, if I call someone's mother a prostitute, some will be offended, and other's would just shrug it off. Racism is about perception. Did you ever see "Breakfast at Tiffanies?" I'd seen "Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story" before, but for some reason BatT didn't seem like a racist film until I saw it with her. Yes, those were the times and that was how it was done then. But still, it can be offensive to someone.

 

I think Frank has a right to be offended by the term. I don't agree with it, but I think it's his right. I also think that he's handling it well. He's not preaching, he's not going off in a huff. He's having a civilized discussion about it.

 

I see nothing wrong done from Frank's point of view.

 

But yes, I do wish we were in a society that didn't take such offense, but we are, and I'm not moving to Latin America just get away from it...

[Pilgrim]

The only thing worse than a Japanese bike is a Japanese bike with a modulator.

 

The word, David, is japsickle. But personally, I never use it - except on Harley boards, of course.

Pilgrim

[Boffin]

I feel we hand those who wish to cause distress a powerful weapon by allowing ouselves to be offended by such terms. If we laugh at these words they loose their power. Strict obsevation of PC terms has allowed those who wish to offend to do so with ease. If I am called a fat ugly bastard and I just respond with - "well I am working on the fat part but have given up on the ugly" - then the barb has missed its target, the words have lost their power. Taking them to heart is the only power they have. We should learn to see the words for what they are - a collection of letters - then the bigots have no weapons to use.

 

Andy

[Mark P]

We had soem controversy here a while back when a Goevernment Minister was forced to apologise for using the word Japanese. In my view this is absolute nonsense as it's simply an abbreviation. By the same token the word 'Nip' is just an abbreviation for the Japanese word for their own country.

 

Today we British are referred to widely around the World as 'Brits' (and the word is often used by us Brits also) - should we be outraged and demand apologies?

 

Actually I think we quite like being called by that name!

[BigArn]

Oh give it a break.

Remember Pearl Harbor.

[Patallaire]

WoW! What a discussion, I believe that winter is here and time is being spent on issues that may or may not be issues. We, those of us who grew up on the East Coast, near the big Apple, were subjected to all of those names, we had mixed neighborhoods made up of very different nationalities, all of who were referred to by their slang names. It meant nothing at the time, an occasional fight if it got nasty, but otherwise it was no big deal, we hung out with everyone and we were all equal, it was who we were. Now, we all live in the Burbs, there are politically correct terms for people, which, I might add are hard to keep up with as they change every so often, for example, are people of color, black, African Americans, people of color, etc., are Chinese people Chinese or Asian, or Asian American, or Oriental? Are they Woman, girls or Ladies? What is politically correct this year? I think prejudice is like Porn, I know it when I see it, it is an issue to people who make it an issue, or if it is truely intended to be mean-spirited and directed. When you have a hammer in your hand, the whole world is nails.

[SageRider]

"Yellow" depending on context can be racially derogatory. It can also be applied to a coward, which is also normally deemed to be derogatory.

Yet we are not requested to stop using the word yellow.

Seems inconsistant that we have not been requested to stop using the word yellow also.

As I stated above, context is everything, and finding offense where none is intended is just overly sensitive.

[tallman]

Response not specific to Michael.

When it comes to intent, there is a standard.

If you do not have the requisite mental capacity, that is one thing.

But if you do, claiming lack of intent is not a defense.

IMO.

And modulators are only annoying if you are looking for them to be so...

[Mike]

Oh give it a break.

Remember Pearl Harbor.

 

Mark, I have to say that in the context of what has been a relatively level-headed discussion, I find your post totally befuddling. What the heck does this mean? Are you suggesting that our historical conflicts justify the use of derogatory terms?

[BigArn]

Oh give it a break.

Remember Pearl Harbor.

 

 

Mark, I have to say that in the context of what has been a relatively level-headed discussion, I find your post totally befuddling. What the heck does this mean? Are you suggesting that our historical conflicts justify the use of derogatory terms?

 

Nope not at all, but we need not forget what happened there, much like we need not forget what happened on 9/11.

Ask somebody who lost a loved one at Pearl Harbor what they think of the word "Japanese".

 

[DavidEBSmith]

"Remember Pearl Harbor"? How about remember Buchenwald, Treblinka, Auschwitz, Dachau, Katyn, et al? I can't believe anybody on a German bike enthusiasts' discussion board would cite the other side's conduct in World War II to justify anything.

 

Y'know, here I was basking in the afterglow of the fellowship of the Chi-Town Christmas party, and I read this discussion and I'm appalled. One of our friends very intelligently said, "Hey, could you maybe not say that word, it's offensive to me", and the very first response was

. That was followed up with variations on "Japanese isn't nearly as insulting as some other words I can think of", "you wrote a book on race so I'll ignore your opinion", "I'm not insulted by being called names so you shouldn't be either" and the ever-popular "you're just being PC", which is just shorthand for "I claim the right to be an a**hole".

 

I went to school with a guy who, at a lull in the conversation, would fart loudly just to see people's reaction. If you ignored it he made a point of calling your attention to it. If you told him he was rude, he had a litany of pseudo-intellectual explanations for why you were wrong - it's a natural function, Ben Franklin wrote about it, everybody does it and we're all hypocrites for denying it. These days, I'm sure he adds "you're just being PC by opposing public farting". But the bottom line was, it was still a stinky fart.

 

This is a holiday season at which we're supposed to be celebrating brotherhood and our love for our fellow man. And all I see in this thread is rudeness, self-centered insensitivity, and glib smart-ass ignorance. Shame on all of you.

[Dave McReynolds]

Mark, I have to say that in the context of what has been a relatively level-headed discussion, I find your post totally befuddling. What the heck does this mean? Are you suggesting that our historical conflicts justify the use of derogatory terms?

 

In fact, historical conflicts absolutely do justify the use of derogatory terms. If you will review newspapers published during WWII, you will find the term "Japanese" used extensively by everyone from the president on down through editorial writers and people on the street. What are these people supposed to do, change their vocabulary the day after Japan surrenders? The fact is, they don't. Which doesn't continue to justify the use of the word over 60 years later, when most of the WWII vets have already died. But not all of them. My dad was a WWII fighter pilot, and is still hanging in there. And I am sure he will continue to use the term "Japanese" until the day he dies; not as a pejorative against Japanese Americans, but in memory of those who suffered during WWII at the hands of the Japanese empire.

 

Which illustrates Mr. Wu's problem: most of those who use the term do not associate it with Japanese Americans. I certainly didn't at the beginning of this discussion; I thought he was referring to Japanese everywhere.

 

It's almost like there are two different meanings to the same word. As I tried to say in my earlier posts, if Mr. Wu really doesn't care what we think about the Japanese and the country of Japan, maybe he should limit his comments to those cases in which Japanese Americans are disparaged. He might find that in present times, as opposed to the turn of the century when the term may have originated, those cases are relatively few, and what we really have here is a tempest in a teapot.

[BigArn]

Did anybody call him a the "J" word? No I don't think so. And what does a German bike have anything to do with it. We all need to get a little thicker skinned here.

[Jerry_75_Guy]

Nope not at all, but we need not forget what happened there, much like we need not forget what happened on 9/11.

Ask somebody who lost a loved one at Pearl Harbor what they think of the word "Japanese".

 

"Remembering" is Not synonymous with absence of forgiveness, and 'keeping the hate alive'.

 

I have family members, gone now, who had served in WWII and specifically at Pearl during the attack. They all made peace with their past, and one even went to Japan and met in fellowship with pilots who had flown into Pearl on that day.

 

If he could do that with his attackers, why would we want to keep raising the 'battle cry' against people who weren't even born until well after the war?

 

If we all continue to hold on to terrible events, personal and national, in a way that continously reinvigorates the pain and the insult, then there is no chance for healing or peace on any level.

 

It's one thing to remember an event, and honor those who served and were lost, but simply waving the banner "Remember Pearl Harbor!!", is not a call to peace, understanding or reconciliation, it just (intentionally) incites bad feeling.

 

You need to reconsider the intentional vitriol in your statements and ask yourself what you're really trying to accomplish with it.

[Hermes]

I hate to say this Frank, but I believe the discussion of this subject on a different board and the subsequent pulling of your post should have given you pause.

 

You now raise the issue out of the blue on this board and got pretty well the reaction you wanted, e.g. a lot of inconclusive discussions.

 

But, in the end, we have all leraned something and that is, that you wrote a book titled "Yellow". I see a pattern here. and whether intential or not, but you got some free advertisement out of your thread. I think that was clumsy!

 

Btw, I won't be buying your book, I think the global community has bigger fish to fry.

 

Jurgen

[BigArn]

You need to reconsider the intentional vitriol in your statements and ask yourself what you're really trying to accomplish with it.

 

So we should just forget about it huh?? Just forget about being attacked. Somebody has a tissy fit over the word "Japanese" and we need to just forget about our past history???? Is that what your saying????

So then we should just forget about 9/11 also? Just stop it all together becuase somebody is offended about it?? I'm offended about Pearl Harbor and 9/11. So what can we do about that??

[Matts_12GS]

If we all continue to hold on to terrible events, personal and national, in a way that continuously reinvigorates the pain and the insult, then there is no chance for healing or peace on any level.

 

Geez, sounds just like what a particular couple of "Reverends" do for a living? Perhaps it's because there's still money to be made in exploiting the anger/pain/suffering/victimhood of others?

 

I sense this is one of those areas where the free speech rights of the citizenry are bumping up against the sensitivities of the individual. While those rights may cause discomfort to Mr. Wu's sensitivities, they are certainly not depriving him of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In fact, they may actually be enabling his pursuits by allowing him to sell a book about how/why he was called names by those less enlightened than he. Good on ya for making lemonade from life's lemons!

 

I do think it improper to come into a community and make a blanket pronouncement like this. Imagine what would happen if announcements were made about not bashing Harleys, or Hondas or oils or tires, batteries, seats, digital cameras etc... Where would it stop? Likely with the death of this community or with the removal of all those guilty of the (thought) crime du jour.

Perhaps sending someone a PM when this insult was perceived and asking for change person to person would have been more appropriate and yielded different results?

[Mike]

You need to reconsider the intentional vitriol in your statements and ask yourself what you're really trying to accomplish with it.

 

So we should just forget about it huh?? Just forget about being attacked. Somebody has a tissy fit over the word "Japanese" and we need to just forget about our past history???? Is that what your saying????

So then we should just forget about 9/11 also? Just stop it all together becuase somebody is offended about it?? I'm offended about Pearl Harbor and 9/11. So what can we do about that??

 

Well, using derogatory terms, whether the term is "Japanese," or "Raghead," doesn't seem to be doing much about anything.

 

I am pretty familiar with terms of derision being used in the context of decribing our foes at war, having spent 28 years in the military. In the course of my time in the military, part of it in the U.K., I had had a lot of contact with those who served in the Allied Forces during WW II and, frankly, given their experiences and their sacrifices I'm not about to call into question their feelings about those with whom they did battle.

 

But that's a far cry from the context in which we're discussing the use of these terms. Assuming for the sake of argument that "Japanese" is a derogatory term, I just don't see how a long-distant armed conflict would justify the use of that term more than a half-century later against those who had no connection with those events in history. Once you stoop to that point, you end up condoning the type of ethnic divisiveness that have torn apart much of the world.

 

I can understand the reasoning behind those who claim that if there is no ill intent no affront should be taken, but I can't buy into the notion that the events of history justify racial slurs.

[Jerry_75_Guy]

So we should just forget about it huh?? Just forget about being attacked.......

 

Reread my post; nothing in there said anything about 'forgetting', but I'm sure you already know that since the popcorn smiley makes it clear you're just hoping to roil the waters a bit more, I'm assuming just for fun I suppose, which makes me wonder whether I might now have the answer to my question regarding your injection of vitriol. If so, humorous intent not withstanding, you still need to think about what you're trying to accomplish.

 

"Remember the Alamo" or "Pearl Harbor" or any other battle cry does nothing to further the current discussion, and is little more than misdirection, but I'm sure you already knew that too before you posted.

[RFW]

The issue is that sometimes people here use “Japanese” to refer to Japanese, in particular the motorcycles. Some people have thought, I am sure sincerely, that “Japanese” was an abbreviation.

It was. There was a British manufacturer of motors called J. A. Prestwick and their trademark that was cast into their motor crankcases was J.A.P.

 

But of course this is not what anyone refers to when they talk about a Japanese bike.

 

Perhaps they have used it without malice, or much deliberation. But the term has a history, as applied to not only products but also people, that shows it is a racial slur, like “Chink” or “Gook,” used to refer to Japanese as well as Japanese Americans, the distinction crucial, and other Asian Americans too. While people should feel free to express themselves however they wish, I hope they can be persuaded that “Japanese” is destructive of the sense of belonging and equality we have fostered so successfully. (I once raised this issue on a different board, and received so many negative comments, I stopped bothering to look at that board; oddly, the moderators removed my original post at some point, presumably because it was too controversial. This community seems more open minded.)

 

Thank you for considering this.

There is no need to dance delicately around this at great length, for heaven''s sake!!!! The use of the word "Japanese" when referring to anything or anyone Japanese is at best rude. A simple statement reminding people that it is indeed rude and in bad taste will suffice.

[Huzband]

> Insert loud farting sound to break the monotony of a too serious thread. <

[BigArn]

Damn, please open the window

 

Getting those waters to boil once again

[USAF1]

Thank you EB.........

 

Pat

[Jerry_75_Guy]

Hijack:

If we all continue to hold on to terrible events, personal and national, in a way that continuously reinvigorates the pain and the insult, then there is no chance for healing or peace on any level.

 

Geez, sounds just like what a particular couple of "Reverends" do for a living? Perhaps it's because there's still money to be made in exploiting the anger/pain/suffering/victimhood of others?

 

Yeah, one in particular, with a really bad hairdo (wait..that could be any one of a number of them.. ..oh well) comes to mind; he really pisses me off, but thats for another (controversial) thread

 

end hijack

[ESokoloff]

Now that Frank has voiced his feelings on the term Japanese, will we respect him?

 

I intend to.

[BigArn]

Good for you.

[KMG_365]

Good for you.

Not just good for him, but good for society as a whole I would think. As an example, that would fall under "Right Speech" from the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path.

Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing and pleasing to people at large....

 

Seems like a pretty good idea and fairly simple to do--though maybe simpler for some than others--it still seems like a worthy goal to strive for, especially here among friends.

[exwingnut]

Good for you.

Not just good for him, but good for society as a whole I would think. As an example, that would fall under "Right Speech" from the Buddhist Noble Eightfold Path.

Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing and pleasing to people at large....

 

Seems like a pretty good idea and fairly simple to do--though maybe simpler for some than others--it still seems like a worthy goal to strive for, especially here among friends.

 

Do unto others...

[Joel]

Now that Frank has voiced his feelings on the term Japanese, will we respect him?

 

I intend to.

 

+1. And that has nothing to do with whether I agree with him.

 

I'm disappointed to be reminded by this thread that some folks can't seem to be respectful once they disagree with someone else. But that's offset by my belief that many of us, probably even most of us, can.

[hANNAbONE]

> Insert loud farting sound to break the monotony of a too serious thread. <

nnnnniiiiiiiiiiiiicccccccccccccceeeeeeeeeee

[Effervescent]

It's widely used, and I have NEVER heard it used even once in a derogatory manner..Have you?

 

You've really never heard the phrase "Japanese crap" used to put down someone else's ride?

 

No, I don't ride with those types of people..

 

The JAPANSCHROTT ... NEIN DANKE sticker posted up above translates as "Japanese Crap. No thanks!"

 

Schrott refers to "pot metal" or "scrap metal".

 

-Eff

[Effervescent]

SHOCKED no one has referenced this yet:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JA_Prestwich_Industries_Ltd

From 1904 to 1908 complete motorcycles were produced [12] from the development of the first Overhead Valve motorcycle engine to be produced in the UK [13]

 

After that the factory concentrated on supplying its proprietary engines to other manufacturers, including Brough Superior Triumph Motorcycles and HRD Motorcycles, the forerunner of Vincent Motorcycles.

 

Latterly, Japanese engines (under Villiers control) were used in motorcycle racing, and most commonly speedway or dirt track.

 

 

My grandpa used to brag and brag about J.A.P. engines.

 

-Eff

[Les is more]

You mean like here, Eff?

 

Blinded by love eh?

[Effervescent]

You leave Jamie outta this!

 

-Eff

[KMG_365]

It's widely used, and I have NEVER heard it used even once in a derogatory manner..Have you?

 

You've really never heard the phrase "Japanese crap" used to put down someone else's ride?

 

No, I don't ride with those types of people..

 

The JAPANSCHROTT ... NEIN DANKE sticker posted up above translates as "Japanese Crap. No thanks!"

 

Schrott refers to "pot metal" or "scrap metal".

 

-Eff

Actually "Schrott" has a few other connotations and colloquial definitions. It can mean "any useless thing" or even nonsense (er redet nur Schrott--he talks nothing but nonsense), but in referring to a motor vehicle you can drive a car until it is literally falling apart (zu Schrott fahren) or similarly after a severe accident wherein the vehicle was damaged so badly as to be not worth repairing, i.e. "totaled". When used in this context, i.e. referring to a marque of motorcycle from a specific country, it would most definitely be pejorative, but a racist statement against the people from the country in question, probably not. Is it kind? No.

 

Interestingly, as an aside, this is taken from an atomic energy protest sticker that was all over Germany in the 70's and 80's after Three-Mile-Island here in PA and then Chernobyl in the then USSR. Before the wall came down in 1989 the former East Germany was building all their nuclear reactors right on the border with the former West Germany and everyone had rockets pointed at everyone else. It's sure nice to see that we've come such a long way in international understanding.

[Ken H.]

This thread was already 10 pages long by the time I saw it, and I haven't read all of it, so I'll simply say that it takes so little effort for everyone to be a little bit more sensitive of others, and it goes such a long ways in the world when we do, that for the life of me I can't understand all the objections being raised to your rather straightforward request.

 

Being a bit more sensitive of your fellow human beings, why is that such a big deal people? "Japanese" vs "Japanese" it's like what, five more keystrokes?

 

I hope you don't leave here Frank, but from some of what I've read, I could understand why you would!

[Dave McReynolds]

I hope you don't leave here Frank, but from some of what I've read, I could understand why you would!

 

I would assume that anyone posting a comment here does so with the expectation that it will be discussed. All angles will be explored unless and until shut down by Mama Hoon. You wouldn't have to observe this board for very long to know that is what happens. Frank, being smarter than the average bear, no doubt knew that when he originated his post. I hope he wasn't disappointed.

 

Can you imagine the reaction if Moses came down from the mountain with his tablets and presented them to this board?

[Silver Surfer/AKAButters]

I'm from Brooklyn, NY originally. A place of great diversity where it was common to hear the terms, jew, mic, kike, wop, chink, whatever, it just kind of rolled off and no one seemred to take particular offense, or at least did not appear to take offense. Being called a mic with regularity had no negative impact on me, in fact, I felt a certain pride in hearing it. Well that was just me, and a very long time ago. I have since learned that these terms are offensive and hurtful to many, and in fact can be psychologically damaging.

With this knowledge, it's pretty simple for me, I have had no trouble adjusting my use of language to not be offensive or hurtful, particularly when I know that there are individuals in the midst that do take offense.

[smiller]

Can you imagine the reaction if Moses came down from the mountain with his tablets and presented them to this board?

Actually that'd be good, maybe then someone would ask some questions...

[baggerchris]

+1. Since I really do not want to offend anyone or anything, or cause pain to the above, I too, try and use the correct terminology. When I was brought up, "Oriental" was used in my family. My Son has told me that "Asian" is now the better term, so I am trying in my old man way to conform. I am aware that "Japanese" is not the preferred term and so have stopped using it for quite some time now. Especially so when you realize that they have turned the tables on us quality wise. I get quite a kick out of the HD forums where a small percentage of the group still disparage Japanese Motorcycles as somehow "cheap" quality wise. Wake up and smell the coffee guys.

[Dennis Andress]

Actually "Schrott" has a few other connotations and colloquial definitions. It can mean "any useless thing"

 

Jamie, That's really well done... Would you mind following up with a description of Kotfluegel?

 

 

 

 

Guys, I've got to throw my two cents in here. I haven't read the whole thread which means I don't have the whole picture but I have an opinion.....

 

A few years ago I busted up my K100RS and caught a ride off a truck driver. As we pulled out of the truck stop I asked him about his accent. He responded that he was from Poland. I told him my mother was born in Berlin, in 1936. He said he knows Berlin well.

 

Then I told him that my grandmother had taken mom to a Hitler rally when she was 6, and that mom had shaken his hand and given him a bouquet of flowers. He looked at me with a long face and said "Hitler wasn't so bad -- compared to Stalin."

 

You see, we never know what someone may be sensitive about. And, more importantly, its not ours to say what should and shouldn't offend another. My grandfather spend the later part of the war in an American POW camp. When the Russians entered Berlin grandma escaped with her children to Ost-Friessland. Just knowing that about my family's past gives me an additional way to consider things.

 

Dennis

[Jake]

Who remembers the days when you literally couldn't type and post the word "Japanese" on this board? It was on the naughty word edit feature set up by Cary. Therefore, I think this is all Baker's fault.

[MattS]

Good thing bikes are not manufactured well and widely for export in Africa.

 

Or Israel, for that matter. And that one rhymes.

 

I never heard the term "Jew you down" until my mid-twenties. Do I find it offensive? You betcha. Does it indicate that speaker is a dumbass with no clue? Absolutely. Do I feel inclined to mention my ancestry or offense? 'course Not.

 

When someone uses an offensive or derogatory word, you can (pardon my French) bet your goddamn Japanese ass that they good and well mean it. Freedom of expression is one of the things that makes this country great. Also the internet. Also this board. The one and somewhat deplorable trait you share deeply with many of the membership is an obsessive need to control your environment. As they used to say in the old days, "you don't like the program, you change the channel." I'm as likely as you to be turned off by the phrasing "piece of Japanese crap" in a post ... but probably more likely to move on to other things I'd find more interesting than I would be to insist that perfect strangers comply with my syntactic demands.