"Jap" Used in Referring to Motorcycles

[Whip]

I've been stayin out of this, but now it's my turn.

 

I don't care who ya are or where your from. If you ask me nicely to not use a word because it bothers you I won't do it out of respect for your feelings.

 

For example...Richard asked me not to use the words, small, short, shrimpy, little or micro around him and I of course have honored his wishes. Because I respect his feelings and would feel the same way if I was in his position.

 

 

 

 

Whip

[BigArn]

Richard, Please don't read the post above.

[smiller]

Who gets to say that this should be OK to say and that should not be OK to say. I would like to meet this person.

Whenever there is a question over whether to be civil and polite the decision is always made by... you.

[Mike]

So E.B. who is making all these P.C. rules. Who gets to say that this should be OK to say and that should not be OK to say. I would like to meet this person.

 

Well, around here her name is Leslie.

[Knifemaker]

Is your last name Carpenter? Chances are in the past someone in your family was a carpenter. Does this insult you now that you are possibly an IBM executive?

 

If your last name is Lincoln are you insulted that someone named a toy after you or are you proud to possibly be associated with a great American President?

 

Yes words can hurt but words can also express many other things besides pain.

 

I have read quite a few terms and words on THIS thread that could be insulting. Why is it that Political Correctness seems to be an American Problem? No other country in the world uses BAD words or BAD terms?

 

Am I to be judged by a word or term I am use and not by the man I am? I have met allot of people who express themselves with great command of words who are more dangerous to my way of life that a person who may not be politically correct in the words they use.

 

IF I DO IT:

 

I am truly sorry if someone believes I insulted them by a word I may have not intended to be construed as an insult. If I feel the need to insult you there will be no doubt as to the words or the tone of my words that I HAVE INSULTED YOU! I am equally insulted myself if the person, who THINKS I have insulted them, through words of their own talks down or rudely to me or feels a lecture is in order.

 

One who goes through life feeling that they have to make others feel the way they do are not living life they are viewing it.

 

I respect all people but the quickest way for me to loose that respect is to infer that I do not respect you.

 

I also apologize for getting on a soap box because I love this forum but threads like this bother me because I feel from the many people I have met over the years from this forum they are above the need for this thread. Now those who do not know me go ahead and think or express what you feel you need to. I have big shoulders and thick skin. That big BEAR HUG Tom gave me when we met for the first time tells me all I need to know about the wonderful well meaning people on this board.

[BigArn]

So E.B. who is making all these P.C. rules. Who gets to say that this should be OK to say and that should not be OK to say. I would like to meet this person.

 

Well, around here her name is Leslie.

No I mean in the big bad world outside of here. I know who is in control here thank you very much.

[Lets_Play_Two]

So E.B. who is making all these P.C. rules. Who gets to say that this should be OK to say and that should not be OK to say. I would like to meet this person.

 

This is the point that is missed. No one is telling you what you can or cannot say. We are each allowed to be an insensitive bore should we so choose....just don't try to make an excuse that it is someone else's fault!!

[BigArn]

So E.B. who is making all these P.C. rules. Who gets to say that this should be OK to say and that should not be OK to say. I would like to meet this person.

 

This is the point that is missed. No one is telling you what you can or cannot say. We are each allowed to be an insensitive bore should we so choose....just don't try to make an excuse that it is someone else's fault!!

 

Me a insensitive bore? I didn't start this, just put some of my feeling down about it. I wasn't the one using the word, and I'm not the only one who said it all a bunch of over blown bullsh!t.

But E.B. was taking exemption to that fact that I was telling Frank that he had thin skin. So all I was asking who is making up the rules, E.B.? Mamma Hoon? Bush?? God???

[Huzband]

...So all I was asking who is making up the rules...

 

 

The one's who disagree with you.

[BigArn]

...So all I was asking who is making up the rules...

 

 

The one's who disagree with you.

 

Wow that is quite a few then.

[Les is more]

As stated, around here, it's my party. In the bigger world, I think that those rules are not made up for us but rather, based on common human decency and a sense of kindness that may tell us that modifying our language slightly may serve the greater need for us all to recognize that we don't exist in a bubble. We share this planet in ever growing numbers. The more tightly we're packed in and the more we impact each other in terms of the "small world" effect of fast communication and travel, the more I think that our regard for each other needs to grow. When a little self awareness is all it takes to make this world a slightly kinder place to be, why not?

 

If one is bent on keeping every vestige of one's "freedom of speech" regardless of, or even in defiance of the fact that some are injured by it, it doesn't bode well for the bigger picture in my opinion.

 

Some may need the "safe familiarity" of the type of maze where the rats are eating each other. I prefer to think and work for the idea that we can do better.

[AdventurePoser]

No I mean in the big bad world outside of here. I know who is in control here thank you very much.

 

You mean Leslie isn't incharge of EVERYTHING in the world? It would be a better place if she was!

 

PS-

[russell_bynum]

Who gets to say that this should be OK to say and that should not be OK to say. I would like to meet this person.

Whenever there is a question over whether to be civil and polite the decision is always made by... you.

 

You're missing the point. I think most of us would prefer to be "Civil and Polite" (people who feel otherwise typically do not last very long on this forum). The issue is, who defines what is "Civil and Polite"? It seems to be a moving target and every time you figure out the rules, someone changes them...seemingly arbitrarily.

[Ken H.]

So E.B. who is making all these P.C. rules. Who gets to say that this should be OK to say and that should not be OK to say. I would like to meet this person.

Not a rule, it was and still is, a request. A member here asked that a term he finds offensive not be used. And what's so hard about that? Our lives are not reduced in any way by not using it in the future. In fact in some small way, by encouraging understanding about differences, our lives are enhanced.

 

Instead a few of you jump on the bandwagon of (paraphrasing), "I have the right to insult whomever I wish." Well maybe in the strictest sense of the word you do. But what's to be gained by doing so? How does using a term, intentionally or unintentionally, that one person/group finds offensive in any way help either the sender or the recipient?

 

Simple courtesies cost so little and reward so much.

[beemerman2k]

So E.B. who is making all these P.C. rules. Who gets to say that this should be OK to say and that should not be OK to say. I would like to meet this person.

 

 

To borrow a phrase from the NFL, "upon further review", sometimes your most vocal opponent can be your greatest ally.

 

Allow me to explain: (I'll pick on Harley Davidson here since that brand catches so much hell, here, although I like their motorcycles) Imagine you're in a Harley Davidson showroom. Suddenly, you are accused of trying to shop lift a Harley Davidson vest with all the gaudy shiny stuff on it and those streamers made known to us by the Native Americans. Imagine how shocked you would be at such an accusation?

 

On one hand, one may suggest you are guilty because you are being so defensive. On the other hand, your defensiveness springs not from being guilty, but instead it comes from being outraged! The truth of the matter is 1) you are not a thief! And 2) even if you were, there's nothing in that showroom you'd ever feel at all compelled to want to shop lift. Even if you received that vest as a Christmas present, it would go straight from the box to the trash can (or to Ebay, maybe), but you'd ever even consider wearing it!

 

Some of the most vocal opponents to Franks sentiments come not from feelings of guilt or callousness, but from outrage that they would ever be accused of having such petty feelings. I can see where people feel they have no racist bones in their bodies, and that even if they did, it would not be toward the Japanese or people of Japanese descent. Thus the vocal outrage toward this thread.

 

As this site becomes more global, there will be more of these kinds of interactions. We should not view them as "PC" run amok, instead we should view them as opportunities for mutual growth and understanding. The lessons here are a 2 way street to be sure. Both parties have something to learn here, absolutely. But we must all be careful not to draw lines and label folks as intolerant or insensitive just because of how they react to this thread. We must truly seek to understand before we seek to be understood. That's a responsibility we all share.

[Francis]

 

For the sake of accuracy,and to correct the "judging a book by its cover" incorect gender caption in this thread, the person in the picture on the back of the yellow motorcycle is a female co-worker of "Effervessent" who is the driver. The picture was taken in NYC prior to the Spring 2007 NE TecDaze. She had never been on a motorcycle and Eff wanted her to have that (brief) experience.

[Les is more]

You're missing the point. I think most of us would prefer to be "Civil and Polite" (people who feel otherwise typically do not last very long on this forum). The issue is, who defines what is "Civil and Polite"? It seems to be a moving target and every time you figure out the rules, someone changes them...seemingly arbitrarily.

 

 

Life is a "moving target." With any luck at all, we are constantly growing and evolving. It makes no sense what so ever to expect what is socially acceptable to be constant. The game of being a social animal is a very dynamic one indeed. Life is not static. It requires personal growth and adaptation to a rapidly changing social environment.

[russell_bynum]

we should view them as opportunities for mutual growth and understanding. The lessons here are a 2 way street to be sure. Both parties have something to learn here, absolutely. But we must all be careful not to draw lines and label folks as intolerant or insensitive just because of how they react to this thread. We must truly seek to understand before we seek to be understood. That's a responsibility we all share.

 

I definitely agree with that.

 

Certainly there are racists and bigots who use the word "Japanese" in a derogatory manner. But using that word does not make one a bigot or a racist. Saying otherwise is like saying "KKK members mostly drive pickup trucks, so if you drive a pickup truck, you must be a KKK member."

 

However...that doesn't change the fact that there are some folks (like Frank) who are offended by the use of that word.

 

Now...the purely logical thing here would be for Frank to "Get over it". If there isn't any offense intended, then there shouldn't be any taken.

 

But...we're not purely logical beings (we're not even mostly logical), so what needs to happen is twofold:

We need to be sensitive of the fact that Frank (and other folks, no doubt) find that word offensive, despite our intentions when we use it. And Frank needs to be sensitive to the fact that it might just be a word we use to save time and there's no malice intended.

 

If both sides grow from this, then we all emerge as better people.

[beemerman2k]

I've been stayin out of this, but now it's my turn.

 

I don't care who ya are or where your from. If you ask me nicely to not use a word because it bothers you I won't do it out of respect for your feelings.

 

For example...Richard asked me not to use the words, small, short, shrimpy, little or micro around him and I of course have honored his wishes. Because I respect his feelings and would feel the same way if I was in his position.

 

 

 

 

Whip

 

 

Whip is killing me on this thread

 

Last night when I went to bed (after the Patiots victory), I drifted off to sleep wondering what Gleno would have posted regarding this thread. I don't know what he'd say -- although I do think I know the sentiment behind what he'd say -- but whatever he'd say, I know I'd be doubled over in stitches having read it!

 

Funny, but you can never predict when you will find yourself missing a good friend.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Last night when I went to bed (after the Patiots victory), I drifted off to sleep wondering what Gleno would have posted regarding this thread. I don't know what he'd say -- although I do think I know the sentiment behind what he'd say -- but whatever he'd say, I know I'd be doubled over in stitches having read it!

 

Funny, but you can never predict when you will find yourself missing a good friend.

 

He already said it (though I don't remember the context), and Jake already alluded to it:

 

"You guys could analyze a haircut."

 

[SageRider]

...No one is telling you what you can or cannot say. We are each allowed to be an insensitive bore should we so choose....

We are also each allowed to be easily offended over words that have no derogatory intent. Seems to me that sensitivity is a two way street!

[russell_bynum]

Life is a "moving target." With any luck at all, we are constantly growing and evolving. It makes no sense what so ever to expect what is socially acceptable to be constant. The game of being a social animal is a very dynamic one indeed. Life is not static. It requires personal growth and adaptation to a rapidly changing social environment.

 

For sure.

 

But sometimes it seems like the changes are just silly and arbitrary. I'm sure James can expound on this, but I've always been amused at the changes in the acceptable terms for black people. Negro, colored, the "N word", Black, African-American, people of color, I've even heard "Urban" (though that seems really wrong to me). How's a well-meaning honkey like me supposed to keep things straight when everything's always changing...for no apparent reason? If "Black" was OK yesterday, why is it so terrible today?

 

I know, I know...that's just how life is.

 

Sometimes I wish we were more color-blind and didn't feel the need to label everyone. Seems like that would solve a bunch of these problems.

[Agent_Orange]

Here! Take your pick.

 

 

Bertrand Russell:

Collective fear stimulates herd instinct, and tends to produce ferocity toward those who are not regarded as members of the herd.

 

 

 

Eleanor Holmes Norton:

The only way to make sure people you agree with can speak is to support the rights of people you don't agree with.

 

 

 

Eric Hoffer:

The capacity for getting along with our neighbor depends to a large extent on the capacity for getting along with ourselves. The self-respecting individual will try to be as tolerant of his neighbor's shortcomings as he is of his own.

 

 

 

Eric Hoffer:

The remarkable thing is that we really love our neighbor as ourselves: we do unto others as we do unto ourselves. We hate others when we hate ourselves. We are tolerant toward others when we tolerate ourselves. We forgive others when we forgive ourselves. We are prone to sacrifice others when we are ready to sacrifice ourselves.

 

 

 

Jerome Nathanson:

The price of the democratic way of life is a growing appreciation of people's differences, not merely as tolerable, but as the essence of a rich and rewarding human experience.

 

 

 

John Godfrey Saxe:

So oft in theologic wars,

The disputants, I ween,

Rail on in utter ignorance

Of what each other mean,

And prate about an Elephant

Not one of them has seen!

 

 

1887: referring to the Buddhist fable of the Blind Sages and the Elephant, found in the Udana, chapter 6, section 4

 

 

 

Mohandas K. Gandhi:

It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world. If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty.

 

 

 

Paul McCartney:

I used to think anyone doing anything weird was weird. Now I know that it is the people that call others weird that are weird.

 

 

 

Paul Ricoeur :

If it is true that there is always more than one way of construing a text, it is not true that all interpretations are equal.

 

 

 

Rene Dubos:

Human diversity makes tolerance more than a virtue; it makes it a requirement for survival.

 

Celebrations of Life, 1981

 

 

 

Robert F. Kennedy:

Ultimately, America's answer to the intolerant man is diversity, the very diversity which our heritage of religious freedom has inspired.

 

 

 

Robert Louis Stevenson:

There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, that it behooves all of us not to talk about the rest of us.

 

 

 

Susan B. Anthony:

I tell them I have worked 40 years to make the W.S. platform broad enough for Atheists and Agnostics to stand upon, and now if need be I will fight the next 40 to keep it Catholic enough to permit the straightest Orthodox religionist to speak or pray and count her beads upon.

 

on the Women's Suffrage platform

 

 

 

Thomas Jefferson:

Difference of opinion is helpful in religion.

 

 

 

Thomas Wentworth Higginson:

All ... religions show the same disparity between belief and practice, and each is safe till it tries to exclude the rest. Test each sect by its best or its worst as you will, by its high-water mark of virtue or its low-water mark of vice. But falsehood begins when you measure the ebb of any other religion against the flood-tide of your own. There is a noble and a base side to every history.

 

 

 

Voltaire:

What is tolerance? -- it is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly -- that is the first law of nature.

[russell_bynum]

Last night when I went to bed (after the Patiots victory), I drifted off to sleep wondering what Gleno would have posted regarding this thread. I don't know what he'd say -- although I do think I know the sentiment behind what he'd say -- but whatever he'd say, I know I'd be doubled over in stitches having read it!

 

One of the things that always amazed me about Gleno was that he could do/say stuff that was so completely politically-incorrect, but people didn' get offended. I think the reason for that is, they knew that in his heart, he meant no harm. He insulted everyone equally (Sexual orientation, sexual preferences, race, religion, body type...it didn't matter...Gleno had a put-down for everyone.), and everyone loved him for it.

 

Looking at the huge diversity in the people who showed up to his memorial service really shows you what "intent" can do, despite the words that were coming out of his mouth.

[Matts_12GS]

We should not view them as "PC" run amok, instead we should view them as opportunities for mutual growth and understanding. The lessons here are a 2 way street to be sure. Both parties have something to learn here, absolutely. But we must all be careful not to draw lines and label folks as intolerant or insensitive just because of how they react to this thread. We must truly seek to understand before we seek to be understood. That's a responsibility we all share.

 

And that brings me back to what I said a few pages ago...

 

If Frank had felt offended (and I may actually be the offender regarding motorcycles produced in Japan) he should have said so to that person in a PM first. As Whip said to me in another thread, "Man up." Solve the problem yourself between individuals and if that doesn't work, then bring it to the fore instead of stepping into a community and making a pronouncement (however civil, kind and respectful) like he did.

 

Had he taken that approach instead of telling "the world" represented here, I think his response would have been worlds different, and he may have had a chance to meet someone he likely would not have otherwise.

 

As others have alluded to, when we (as a society) run to the aprons of "the authorities" be they forum moderators, teachers, older siblings or government officials to solve issues we should solve ourselves we doom ourselves to dependency on them. Personally, I always thought the individuals here a more self reliant group than that...

[beemerman2k]

Wow, this thread is collecting some great content!

 

As far as PC terms for black Americans go, I can't help you there. I gave up on it myself some time ago I have had fellow blacks chastise me for using the wrong term (black vs African American vs whatever). Gimmie a break! I guess I refer to myself as a black American, and damn proud of it, too. ("Say it loud, I'm black and I'm proud" -- James Brown )

 

Yeah, Gleno was thoroughly insulting. That's why I loved him so much If he insulted you, it's because he respected you enough to give you some attention

[Dave McReynolds]

The whole "political incorrectness" thing is nothing more than a selfish and arrogant claim to be able to decide for someone else what that other person finds offensive. Whenever somebody says "this is politically incorrect . . . " what they are really saying is "I know you will find this offensive but f--- you, I don't care, I'm saying it anyway . . ."

 

In your first post on this thread and this one, you have railed against anyone who would use "pc bs" as a defense for continuing the use of the expression "Japanese bike." In fact, my read is you don't believe that calling something "pc bs" is a valid defense against any change of behavior we're asked to make.

 

I don't believe I've ever used the term "Japanese bike" other than in this discussion, as I generally express myself more formally - just a habit I've formed over the years that puts some people off, but works okay for me in general.

 

But I have been as annoyed as many others in being asked to change what I consider perfectly good English to protect someone's sensibilities.

 

I could give you examples of things that have annoyed me, but I would like to know where you're coming from in this. If an expression, job title, physical condition or disability, annoys someone, does that mean we should always change it? How many people does it have to annoy before the entire population has to start using another term? What if Frank were the only person who was annoyed by the term "Japanese;" does that mean we all have to change if he posts his annoyance on this forum? I don't believe he is the only one who is annoyed by the use of that term, but he does seem to be imposing his feelings about a term that annoys him as a Japanese American into a setting that has nothing to do with Japanese Americans and apparently is of no concern to the Japanese nationals who are the only ones who could be considered a target for the remark. It would be like if I go into a bar and complain that as a recovering alcoholic, I'm offended by all the liquor being consumed, which I view as a direct threat to my efforts to stay on the wagon. Do I really have any business doing that?

 

As a real life example, I know of polls that have been taken among Native Americans, for example, that have found that 80% either don't care or like have Indian themes for ball teams, while a vocal 20% does care. Does that mean the vocal 20% gets its way and we change all the names of ball teams that have Indian themes?

 

Is there any case of what many of us would call "pc bs" that you would agree is over-the-top, or do you believe all the name changes, all the no-no words, all the changes in what used to be considered common courtesy between people have a basis in legitimate grievances, and in none of those cases is it the responsibility of those campaigning for the changes to just learn to get along?

[Huzband]

Wanna pick & choose quotes? Here's three I picked;

 

A nation or civilization that continues to produce soft-minded men purchases its own spiritual death on an installment plan.

 

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

 

The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood.

 

 

All of the above were quotes from Martin Luther King, Jr.

[TyTass]

Been content with reading and watching this virulent thread go one without comment. However, just a couple posts after James' above it seems it died down so I thought I’d add this on before the significance of James’ post goes unnoticed. [bTW: James, wonderfully refreshing, as usual. I truly admire and respect your individualist approach in all aspects of your life.]

 

Hear, hear! O’ Thoughtful Members of BMWST! Read James' posts:

 

THIS is diversity is action! James is James. He relies on his mind to define himself. He chooses which aspects of whatever culture and/or environment that he wishes to make part of his being while on this planet. He does not accept the easy road of a stereotypical existence or one defined by anyone else. Nor is he anti-(insert group here).

 

This doesn’t mean that James can’t become offended with someone’s poor choice of words or intentional slur. But it does mean that James is not going to be brought down by it – despite the fact others may do so, and wind up worse off for it in themselves.

 

I think it is our cultural folly in the US to focus so hard on “grouping people”, so hard that we lose the individual. And we "lose the idividual" not only when we categorize for a derogatory purpose but even when we do so for some proclaimed "altruistic" reason. The individuals are what matter IMHO. I’ll respect Frank’s request out of courtesy to Frank, but not out of courtesy to all Japanese-Americans as I don’t know all Japanese-Americans, and neither does Frank. Thus, I didn’t read him as speaking ex officio on behalf of all Japanese- or Asian-Americans (if he was, then shame on him for that presumption).

 

And because we do have different experiences and different varying degrees of education (meant as units of measurement, not meant as numbers of certificates), I too believe that Frank’s best course of action was to PM the offender(s) and let them know how they had offended him. That would have given them the opportunity to understand and be magnanimous enough to at least apologize, or perhaps even go so far as to retract their statements publicly.

 

Wow! Imagine for a moment the power of that possibility. Then consider all the unecessary heated emotions so present in this thread.

 

I accept that Frank may indeed have PM'ed the offender ... but it doesn't appear so in his first post. Frank, feel free to correct me if I err.

[tallman]

Wanna pick & choose quotes? Here's three I picked;

 

A nation or civilization that continues to produce soft-minded men purchases its own spiritual death on an installment plan.

 

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

 

The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood.

 

 

All of the above were quotes from Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

And we all know the answer to what he would ride.

 

[Matts_12GS]

And we all know the answer to what he would ride.

 

 

[Bheckel169]

I've waited this long to read the posts and it just confirms my belief we all come into this world and are enculturated with a set of beliefs that will often dictate the way we see the world and the people within this world.

There will be some who are sensitive to the feelings of others; there will be some of us sensitive to others only if it doesn't affect their own personal world view. In either event, we are who we are and the broad response to Frank's comments only confirm or reject his feelings based on their own cultural context. So, Frank, thanks for the thread. It was enlightening. I doubt it will have changed too many of our feelings about how we should deal with the subject. I mean, this is a group of generally, middle agers, set in their ways, independent, often opinionated and what you see here is a wonderful representation of same. Doesn't mean it's bad, just different. That's the world according to... Bruce

[EffBee]

Frank, I had no idea you were a Jewish American Princess.

[EffBee]

As a gaijin I admit that I've occassionally referred to bikes manufactured by Japanese companies as Japanese bikes, abbreviating "Japanese," relating to their country of corporate origin, for the sake of conversational flow, nothing else intended. But I don't refer to people by their ethnic or cultural origins. I respect your request that you not be identified thusly. I believe you have the right to request it and it's not a difficult thing for me to honor. I've yet to hear from the motorcycles.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Just for reference, 'Cisco, gaijin is not exactly a term of endearment either, again, depending on context.

[Deadboy]

Wow, long thread...

 

First off let me say I see nothing wrong with someone pointing out that the term Japanese bike is offensive...

 

 

 

because

 

 

 

(drum roll please...)

 

 

 

It is....

 

 

The fact that some folks "didn't know" or "don't care" is simply a piss poor excuse at best....but the best post on this entire thread has to be Russell claiming he "didn't know" that saying that you were trying to "Jew them down" was offensive....you been living in a cave for the past couple of decades? My black friends often use a specific word to refer to each other that starts with the letter n, but somehow I figured out that my use of the word wasn't as likely to be appreciated...

 

Sorry folks but in my experience defending your right to be an insensitive ass (or an ignorant fool) only proves you are both...why not take this as an opportunity to learn something instead? I recently told a friend that the term “oriental” is in fact offensive and he thanked me for telling him….wonder how this thread would have changed if the first reply was along those lines instead….

 

Carry on……

[ChrisNYC]

Deadboy said ... the term “oriental” is in fact offensive ...

 

I honestly didn't know that. I thought it was the beautiful counterpart to 'occidental' ...

 

------------------

Chris (aka Tender Vittles )

Little '77 KZ400 in the Big Apple

Black '99 RT for Everywhere Else, such as ...

[EffBee]

gaijin is not exactly a term of endearment either, again, depending on context.

 

Exactly. Gaijin is a term used by the Japanese to refer to those who are not of their culture. I believe the translation is "outsider." Many believe the term to be derogatory, even insulting and racist. Yet I have not been offended by this term, even when in Japan, because that is in fact what I am to them, given their (relatively) closed culture. I am an outsider. That the term has a negative connotation, or can be taken as insulting, is of no concern to me. I accept it as how they view me and believe that they really do not mean it to be insulting. So I look at their intent, what's in their hearts, not at the word.

 

You see, one can say "Japanese" with a heart full of hate. One can say "Japanese" with admiration, as we often do when refering to motorcycles whose design/manufacturing origins are in Japan. I would respect someone's request who asked that s/he not be refered to by a name they find distasteful. However, I also would likely find that same person to be weak, thin-skinned and not worth much of my time if they didn't try to learn what's in my heart at the same time.

[Ken H.]

However, I also would likely find that same person to be weak, thin-skinned and not worth much of my time if they didn't try to learn what's in my heart at the same time.

But Fernando, isn't that a rather gross oversimplification? Words do have implied unspoken meaning, and some of them an implied unspoken, but generally recognized as a negative/derogatory meaning.

 

To say (paraphrasing), "you should know what I mean/feel not what I say" is a rather tall, impossible actually, order. For effective communication we owe it to the receptor to choose the best possible words to communicate what we mean. To say the receptor who misinterpreted what we say as not understanding our heart, and is therefore 'thin-skinned' smacks of blaming the victim in my opinion.

[Matts_12GS]

"you should know what I mean/feel not what I say"

 

Oh, I don't know...

Ask any married man if he has learned to do this with his wife!

[beemerman2k]

So I look at their intent, what's in their hearts, not at the word...You see, one can say "Japanese" with a heart full of hate. One can say "Japanese" with admiration, as we often do when refering to motorcycles whose design/manufacturing origins are in Japan. I would respect someone's request who asked that s/he not be refered to by a name they find distasteful. However, I also would likely find that same person to be weak, thin-skinned and not worth much of my time if they didn't try to learn what's in my heart at the same time.

 

You know, it figures that Fernando Belair would openly admit, and then ask for forgiveness, for using a term that may be offensive to someone else. I have been on this board for 7+ years, and after a while, you get to know people. EffBee is among the most outstanding persons you're likely to encounter on this thread. I am not at all surprised at FB's humility on this issue, but it's still nice to see such excellent character displayed on this forum

 

OK, now to my other -- though related -- point. Speaking of the difference between the term and the intent behind the term, one of my favorite scenes in the movies is from that terribly un-PC movie, "Rush Hour", when Jackie Chan follows Chris Tucker into that black owned pool hall. Following Chris Tucker's lead, Jackie Chan says to the black bar tender, "What's up my n!&&@r" Oh my goodness!!! I fell on the floor in tears

 

His intent was quite friendly, open and sincere, but his choice of words failed to communicate that intent in that particular context. Classic

[EffBee]

However, I also would likely find that same person to be weak, thin-skinned and not worth much of my time if they didn't try to learn what's in my heart at the same time.

But Fernando, isn't that a rather gross oversimplification? Words do have implied unspoken meaning, and some of them an implied unspoken, but generally recognized as a negative/derogatory meaning.

 

To say (paraphrasing), "you should know what I mean/feel not what I say" is a rather tall, impossible actually, order. For effective communication we owe it to the receptor to choose the best possible words to communicate what we mean. To say the receptor who misinterpreted what we say as not understanding our heart, and is therefore 'thin-skinned' smacks of blaming the victim in my opinion.

 

Ken, rather than paraphrase to try and make the point YOU want to make, try discussing my words as they were written. To wit:

 

I would respect someone's request who asked that s/he not be refered to by a name they find distasteful. However, I also would likely find that same person to be weak, thin-skinned and not worth much of my time if they didn't try to learn what's in my heart at the same time.

 

So, what you have is my concern for and acquiescence to the sensitivity of someone else. But apparently that's not enough. On top of everything else, I have to consider them a "victim" (I can't tell you how much I dislike the professional victicrat argument) and LIKE them even if they make no attempt themselves to consider my intent and feelings? How one-sided do you think this needs to be? How much do we have to surrender to those who demand Political Correctness in all things?

 

NO!

 

I am a reasonable man and ask no more for myself and from others than they ask of me. If I am to be interested in, receptive to, and responsive to their sensitivities, then they are to do the same and offer understanding toward where I'm coming from and what's in my heart. Equality, Ken. No less. If someone cannot reciprocate, then I do not consider them equal in this instance, nor someone much worthy of my time.

[beemerman2k]

I just received a PM that seemed to suggest I was comparing the "Rush Hour" scene with something Fernando may have done. I am making no such comparison! Fernando's heart and motives were sincere, pure, and totally above board.

 

OK, I guess in that sense, I am making a comparison in that Jackie Chan's motives were sincere, pure, and totally above board as well. And that's what made that scene in the movie so funny But I do not mean to suggest that Jackie Chan or Fernando were somehow in the wrong at all.

[russell_bynum]

It is....

 

Only to those who find it offensive.

 

 

Seriously....it is just a word. Some people might find it offensive (and that's OK). Some people might not (and that's OK too). Whether or not it is offensive depends on a whole slew of different variables.

 

In our quest to understand that there are differences in cultures, protocols, etc, we much not lose sight of the fact that there are differences in cultures and protocols.

 

the best post on this entire thread has to be Russell claiming he "didn't know" that saying that you were trying to "Jew them down" was offensive.

 

Why in the hell would that be offensive? It means you beat someone down on price to get the best deal on something. Like I said...I learned that term from Jewish people. I've used it with them and nobody seemed to get bothered.

 

My black friends often use a specific word to refer to each other that starts with the letter n, but somehow I figured out that my use of the word wasn't as likely to be appreciated...

 

Your friends are too uptight.

 

Growing up, I was one of very few white guys working in a Mexican restaurant. Racial slurs flowed in both directions there more freely than the margaritas did, and nobody got offended...most likely because we were all smart enough to understand that to offense was intended.

 

I recently told a friend that the term “oriental” i

 

WTF??? Since when? My best friend in High School was Japanese (his parents came to the US when he was knee-high to a grasshopper.....hopefully I didn't offend any grasshoppers with that statement) and the term "Oriental" flowed freely. There was nothing derogatory or offensive about it.

 

Do tell...why is "Oriental" now offensive? And what would the correct term-du-jour (hopefully I didn't offend any French people) be?

 

why not take this as an opportunity to learn something instead?

 

Yeah, wouldn't that be great?

 

 

[russell_bynum]

I am a reasonable man and ask no more for myself and from others than they ask of me. If I am to be interested in, receptive to, and responsive to their sensitivities, then they are to do the same and offer understanding toward where I'm coming from and what's in my heart. Equality, Ken. No less. If someone cannot reciprocate, then I do not consider them equal in this instance, nor someone much worthy of my time.

 

Very well said.

[onedae]

Wow - 7 pages and counting!!!

[russell_bynum]

Wow - 7 pages and counting!!!

 

Modify your preferences to view more posts per page...I'm only seeing 4 pages.

 

[Deadboy]

You sure you live in California?

 

"only to those who find it offensive"

 

Well no doubt...I think that is the real point....all of us can assure ourselves we are "one of the good ones" and it is "other people" who mean something offensive when they use a derogative term....but the rub on this entire thread is an Asian person has raised the point that a specific term is offensive to him, and instead of acknowledging that, many folks seem to think they can just assure him they "don't mean it" or that he should "grow up" and frankly that is something I find pathetic.

 

Growing up around a bunch of racist folks (of any ethnicity) and then trying to use that as a justification for continuing that type of behavior is equally baffling....my grandmother had another term for Brazil nuts that I will not post here, nor will I use it the next time I am at the store….but apparently that is all the justification needed for some of us....sad really....

[Lawman]

but the rub on this entire thread is an Asian person has raised the point that a specific term is offensive to him, and instead of acknowledging that, many folks seem to think they can just assure him they "don't mean it" or that he should "grow up"

 

Sounds good to me.

[Matts_12GS]

but the rub on this entire thread is an Asian person has raised the point that a specific term is offensive to him, and instead of acknowledging that, many folks seem to think they can just assure him they "don't mean it" or that he should "grow up"

 

Sounds good to me.

 

What he said!