moshe_levy Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 All- A few weeks ago, we sold my wife's 2004 R1150R with almost 25,000 miles on it. It ran perfectly the whole time we've had it (since 2006 / 5,000 miles) and never gave us a lick of trouble. But my wife's pregnant, and giving up riding for awhile, so she decided to let the bike go to someone who could enjoy it. We sold it to a local enthusiast who himself had an R1150R in the past. He called me today to tell me the bike is running horribly, and is at the dealer awaiting service. Worse, his planned x-country trip is in jeopardy now as he needs to ship the bike to California to start, but now this service is throwing off his schedule. He tells me the bike was running perfectly for a few days, and then racket began that sounds like valvetrain out of whack. The low oil light began flickering, even though I changed the oil 1000 miles ago and according to him, the level in the sight glass shows a full tank of oil. It's hard for me to describe further since I'm just passing on what he told me, but I feel bad since I sold him what I consider to be a religiously maintained bike with no problems whatsoever. If anyone has any clues from the crude descriptions above, please let me know. Thanks. -MKL Link to comment
T__ Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 MKL, the oil light flickering is not good news at all.. If not for that that maybe just as simple as a stone caught in a TBI cam causing the cable to ride out of track & the TB to be way out of sync.. They will knock & carry on pretty good with a TBI way out of whack.. Hopefully the oil light is just from a very low idle speed.. That is one of the downsides of selling a used bike.. I always worry about something happening just like you describe.. No way of knowing but still makes you feel terrible about the sale.. Hopefully it will all work out OK with a small problem easily repaired & not something you could have foreseen.. Let us know how it all turns out.. Twisty Link to comment
philbytx Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Moshe, IMHO - It is what it is and so don't get your undies in a bundle. You know you looked after the bike, you know care for your equipment and it was running just fine in your possession. Now, since the purchase, he used the bike and you just don't know what he did with it once he left your premises. I assume you sold the bike "As tested, tried and approved with no warranty" aka As Is? Caveat Emptor and "Crap happens". Don't let any guilt get in your way. Stay sane... Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Twisty- Good suggestion, but (I neglected to mention earlier) this problem happens only at operating temp. The bike runs OK when cold, and as it warms runs worse and worse, until idle drops to ~800rpm and the oil light flickers (which I imagine is a function of low pressure at this reduced rpm). Phil, I'm not going to hang myself over it, but by the same token I take great pride in my bikes. I don't sell people faulty items, and I don't want a guy's trip ruined without trying to help, even though it's no longer mine. -MKL Link to comment
T__ Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 MKL, hopefully the service will find it quickly.. We could guess at things all night & maybe touch on it & maybe miss it by a mile.. OK cold & gets worse hot might be an 02 sensor,, or crankcase full of gasoline,, or sensor issue,, or none of the above.. Did the guy seem like he knew oilhead BMW’s,, no way he tried to smooth out the idle a bit by playing with BBS thinking they were idle mixture screws? Twisty Link to comment
Francis Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 You don't know what he did to the bike after purchasing it. Could be bad gas, he washed the bike in the wrong manner, loosened something etc. From your posts you seem to be very careful and thorough in your maintenance activities and care of your bikes. Who knows what happened and who did what. I hope we will see you this weekend at NE Tec Daze. Francis Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 29, 2009 Author Share Posted April 29, 2009 Hey Twisty- Yeah, you're right. Unless I'm there and see it for myself, I hate relaying info like this. Too many variables and not enough facts. He did have an R1150R in the past, but who knows how deep his knowledge is. A bad coil? A loose spark plug wire? Who knows. I'll know soon enough I guess, once he tells me. -MKL Link to comment
outpost22 Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 The only thing I will add MKL is that you do not know what he did with the bike after he bought it from you. Many mechanical things can happen in a very short period of time. Find out what the diagnosis is, and base your responses to him on that. Link to comment
OoPEZoO Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Sounds to me like you timed it perfect Link to comment
philbytx Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 Glad you said it........... Link to comment
Selden Posted April 29, 2009 Share Posted April 29, 2009 I empathize with your concern over a bike you have parted with. Every time I have sold a bike, I have worried that the new owner will treat it well. A few weeks after I sold my Honda FT500 Ascot, I saw it in the shop, with a mirror broken off, and the transmission in need of repairs. Apparently the new owner had tried to stuff it in first gear at an inappropriate speed. It's painful to see an old friend mistreated. Knowing that you are a moto journalist, I sense the makings of a MCN story here. Link to comment
VinnyR11 Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 If I sold my bike 7 days ago I would have sold it honestly as "running perfectly". A couple of days ago the HES went. LOTS of problems, getting stuck, the whole shtick. The new owner would have been stuck, and pretty pissed, but there is nothing I could have done, nor is there anything you could have done regarding your bike. This stuff happens. That's the issue with selling, buying, or just owning used stuff. How could you possibly have known this was going to happen? You were totally honest when you sold your bike. Feel bad? Sure, I would too, but I think it's up to the new owner to figure out the problem. Link to comment
lvnvbiker Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I've had similar situations happen in the past, and hate to put it this way but an old sales saying holds true all to often "Buyers are Liars". Not knowing your exact situation I can't be totaly fair about it, but the buyer could have done anything to that bike since he picked it up. In one of the problems that I had the buyer was trying to get me to give money back after they wrecked the car I sold them claiming brake failure as the cause of thier teen rear ending someone. Like you I am VERY anal about maintianing my machines and I am an ASE certified mechanic so we can all figure out what the real deal was there. I would not put to much faith in the word of the buyer, unless you know them realy well. Hopefully it is nothing serious, and now that I think about it I had a bike that did something similar. Ran great cold than wham it went wacky on me. Turned out to be the ignition modual failing when warm, and a very easy fix. Best of luck to you Moshe. Oh,and don't feel bad you did everything you could to keep your bride safe and trouble free on that machine, what ever failed is realy not your problem. Link to comment
hANNAbONE Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Moshe, IMHO - It is what it is and so don't get your undies in a bundle. You know you looked after the bike, you know care for your equipment and it was running just fine in your possession. Now, since the purchase, he used the bike and you just don't know what he did with it once he left your premises. I assume you sold the bike "As tested, tried and approved with no warranty" aka As Is? Caveat Emptor and "Crap happens". Don't let any guilt get in your way. pERHAPS hE reached down and tightened those two brass screws that "were loose"?? on the TB's...''yup I cinched 'em down real good - even put some blue Loc-tite on 'em...'' Moshe - anything could of happened since the bike was in his possession...no bunched undies as Philby suggests... Link to comment
Matts_12GS Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 I had a similar thing selling a bike... It was a kid who bought the bike, came and got it and took it back across the state. I know the bike to have been in good condition, well maintained and ready to ride. I got an email about 10 days later that the fuel tank was rusted inside and the bike was so bad it wouldn't run and they wanted their money back. I reminded them that the bike was a) test ridden before purchase and b) 14+ days had elapsed after the purchase. As an act of good faith or karma, I sent him $75 to split the cost of having a mechanic Creem the tank after I got a copy of the invoice. Link to comment
NoHeat Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Twisty- this problem happens only at operating temp. The bike runs OK when cold, and as it warms runs worse and worse, until idle drops to ~800rpm and the oil light flickers (which I imagine is a function of low pressure at this reduced rpm). -MKL I'd guess it's a problem with the delivery of either fuel or air. Just curious, does the fuel injection mapping for this bike involve a temperature sensor? The buyer is parking the bike someplace where it hasn't been before -- is it possible that the airbox or snorkel has a mouse nest? Link to comment
T__ Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Twisty- this problem happens only at operating temp. The bike runs OK when cold, and as it warms runs worse and worse, until idle drops to ~800rpm and the oil light flickers (which I imagine is a function of low pressure at this reduced rpm). -MKL I'd guess it's a problem with the delivery of either fuel or air. Just curious, does the fuel injection mapping for this bike involve a temperature sensor? The buyer is parking the bike someplace where it hasn't been before -- is it possible that the airbox or snorkel has a mouse nest? John, The TPS (throttle position sensor) & engine RPM are actually the basics for engine fueling & operation all the other sensors are just modifiers to that to define fuel & spark table correction.. It has 2 temp sensors.. The oil temp sensor is the main fueling input as far a fueling mapping goes with an air intake temp sensor that has a little effect on fueling but more effect on spark mapping.. IF, the engine can make it into closed loop then the 02 sensor is about the only fueling control at steady state throttle & idle but both the oil temp & intake temp have a fairly large input on spark mapping.. A failed air intake temp sensor (AIT) would hardly be noticeable as it only operates within certain parameters & if it falls outside those parameters the Fueling Computer just substitutes it’s own info based on other inputs.. If the oil temp sensor fails that usually causes a problem across the board from cold start to warm operation (but anything is possible on certain sensor malfunctions) Same with the TPS,, that is very important sensor will little back up as other sensors can’t be used to get that info.. But again that is usually across the board not just a warm engine thing.. If the motorcycle has an aftermarket fuel controller on it (like the early Techlusion) I would be W-A-Y more inclined to believe that as the problem as when those fail they allow great cold operation but very poor hot operation,, a very reduced hot idle,, & very probably fuel contamination in the engine oil.. At the worst a stall & no re-start hot but once it cools off a perfect re-start.. Twisty Link to comment
Andrew B Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Hasn't fitted a new battery has he? Link to comment
T__ Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Hasn't fitted a new battery has he? Andrew, why would that matter? If it about a computer re-learn that won't cause the low hot idle or the knocking.. Just a little uneven operation until it is started & run a few times.. Twisty Link to comment
AviP Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Moshe, you hoodwinked the poor guy! Your ebay rating has been updated. Are you going to the CT Tech Daze? Link to comment
Killintime Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 If the oil temp sensor fails that usually causes a problem across the board from cold start to warm operation (but anything is possible on certain sensor malfunctions) Twisty Twisty, I had an oil temp sensor failure that would only rear its head at full operating temperature. Sure made for some interesting riding. Link to comment
T__ Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 If the oil temp sensor fails that usually causes a problem across the board from cold start to warm operation (but anything is possible on certain sensor malfunctions) Twisty Twisty, I had an oil temp sensor failure that would only rear its head at full operating temperature. Sure made for some interesting riding. Killintime, that is a very unusually temperature sensor failure.. Like I said,, anything is possible when it comes to a sensor failure but quite unusual.. Did you do the repair yourself or have a shop do it? If done by a shop I would question the need for the sensor.. In a lot of cases a shop will guess at a sensor failure & install & new sensor then if that doesn’t fix the problem they will find the real problem but will leave the new sensor in as it is easier to sell the customer a new sensor than go back & re-install the old sensor (it depends on the shop & their work ethics but is very common in the auto industry) Twisty Link to comment
NoHeat Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 A few weeks ago, we sold my wife's 2004 R1150R ... his planned x-country trip is in jeopardy now as he needs to ship the bike to California to start I don't think I'd want to plan a trip across the whole country with a used bike that I bought only a few weeks earlier. Regardless of what the seller said about its condition. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted April 30, 2009 Author Share Posted April 30, 2009 All- Everything is stock so no Techlusion to blame. No new battery required either as I stuck a 12 year Enersys Genesis in there back in 2006. Who knows? Avi, when it CT Tech Daze? I only know about the Airhead tech days! -MKL Link to comment
Killintime Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Killintime, that is a very unusually temperature sensor failure.. Like I said,, anything is possible when it comes to a sensor failure but quite unusual.. Did you do the repair yourself or have a shop do it? If done by a shop I would question the need for the sensor.. In a lot of cases a shop will guess at a sensor failure & install & new sensor then if that doesn’t fix the problem they will find the real problem but will leave the new sensor in as it is easier to sell the customer a new sensor than go back & re-install the old sensor (it depends on the shop & their work ethics but is very common in the auto industry) Twisty I agree, it is rather unusual. As for the work I did it myself. I also observed an erratic reading on the RID at normal operating temperature when the symptom would present itself. Link to comment
Unhofliche_Gesundheit Posted April 30, 2009 Share Posted April 30, 2009 Moshe - i have to compliment you on your cunning and amazing planning on the the pregnancy as a ruse to sell the bike right before it went on the fritz. oh and next time when the purchaser comes back to complain - just point to the oil filter - non-BMW - warranty denied! Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 The saga continues. Guy took the bike down to the local dealer (Cross Country in Metuchen), who took the heads and cylinders off. I went down there myself to check it out this afternoon. Cylinders show some scoring, as do the pistons. The bearings are toast. The dealer wants to split the cases to look at the main bearings. Ugh.... It's clear that somehow or another there was some oil starvation going on, but why? We never ever saw the oil light came on when the bike was in our possession. It never burned a drop of oil, and the oil was always changed on time (except for our x-country trip, which was 9,300 miles long between changes - but only this one time). Odometer shows the guy only rode the bike 100 miles since taking it from us, so he's convinced we sold him a lemon. Yet I feel confident, having done all the oil changes myself and monitoring consumption from day 1, that this is not the case. For karma's sake, I offered him to pay half the bill once I see the estimate, which is very likely going to be north of $1500 parts and labor - this is not a bill I was expecting this month! I took the position that he should get it done at Tom Cutter's shop in PA, where at least I can trust the diagnosis and work 100% (while also saving $20 an hour) but he's adamant about having it done at the dealer for whatever reason. So that's the latest. I'm waiting to see now how he responds to my offer to pay half, and what the estimate comes out to. I understand these things happen, but I have a bad feeling that the dealer is happy to swap components without determining the root cause of why this happened in the first place. -MKL Link to comment
upflying Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 You are very generous to help pay for the repairs. Private party sales are always as-is and buyer beware. My hat is off to you. Link to comment
BFish Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Moshe...somewhere along life's road you will be repaid for this gesture. you are being very reasonable. look at the other side of the deal...probably a good thing you sold it. only paying for half the repair and still have some cash from the sale. Link to comment
Richard_D Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 He could have changed the oil after he bought it from you and did something wrong like forget to remove a stuck filter o-ring or something. Link to comment
Linz Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 No good deed goes unpunished. Moshe, a condition of paying half should be that it's done in a shop of *your* choice. Also, I can't help feeling that by offering to pay anything at all is (in a legal sense) an admission of some kind of responsibility. I'm not a lawyer but I'd get advice. I'd withdraw the offer unless it gets Rubber Chickened... Linz Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 6, 2009 Author Share Posted May 6, 2009 I got advice - I have no obligation to pay anything, legally. Karma is another matter entirely, so I'll go halfway. I would rather Tom do the work, but he himself is backed up now, the bike is at the dealer on the lift and the guy who bought the bike from me is comfortable there, so I'm just basically paying for this to go away with no hard feelings. Speaking of which, he took me up on my offer to pay for half, so I think soon enough this will be over. Richard, I looked at the filter - same Bosch I put in there 1000 miles ago along with 4 quarts of Amsoil's finest. I really have no clue what happened here - yet. -MKL Link to comment
Richard_D Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Good will come back to you if it allready hasn't your whole life ! Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 The worst thing I can put together with the symptoms is that he dropped it while it was running. These motors do not respond well to running on their side. It would explain both the noise and the low oil pressure. And the motor would be junk. Just sayin'. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 7, 2009 Author Share Posted May 7, 2009 Not likely. Valve covers were perfect, just as I left them. No sign of any dropping. -MKL Link to comment
Rich06FJR1300 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 kind of have mixed feelings about this. For one, its understood with a private sale there are no warranties expressed or implied. Not sure how much of a break you gave him off your asking price if any and your not in the business of selling bikes which should be understood. Half the time i say yeah, its a nice thing you did but the other half tells me hey, that's the risk you take when making a private sale. You want a warranty? buy it from a dealer. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 $3,500.00. That's the estimate. New tops end, new bearings, split the cases.... Ouch. So now, being a man of my word, I'm out $1,750.00, which is more than my wife paid for her entire 1971 R60/5 - for a repair on a bike that isn't even mine. Karma's expensive! -MKL Link to comment
T__ Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 MKL, probably be quicker & cheaper to install a good used engine.. Even after repairs on the original you don’t know what happened to make that failure so no guarantee it won’t return unless EVERY involved piece is removed & inspected.. That’s a lot of money to put into a used 04 R bike.. Twisty Link to comment
MrHondamatic Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 I've been following the thread, and have come to the conclusion that if the new owner was as honest and decent as you are Moshe, you would not be paying anything for his screw up. You sir are a better man than I. I'll take a wild guess he gently laid it over in the soft grass while stopped and running, and that's why you are not seeing any damage. Link to comment
themagicone Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 There is no way I would pay that for a repair. He bought it as-is and it ran when he picked it up. There is WAY too many variables between when it got it to when it broke, even if it was only 100 miles. Link to comment
smiller Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 I have no idea what happened but the odds of something in the engine oiling chain (normally a very reliable system) failing totally of its own accord within 100 miles after purchase is vanishingly small. Whether anyone is admitting it or not there is more to this story than random chance. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 You all make good points. For all I know, maybe he did lay it over in grass. I'll never really know for sure. The dealer is warrantying the work, which gives him comfort. He has no time to even consider other options, used engines and so on, because he had planned a cross country journey months ago and departure time is coming up very fast. I know 2 things for certain: First, the bike never gave us a lick of trouble, and second, we sold it in what was to us perfect shape. However, I too am very troubled that in 100 miles we're looking at total engine failure. I'll chalk this one up to bad luck on both sides, and hope that what comes around goes around someday. Hopefully this retires the story. -MKL Link to comment
smiller Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Well one thing that I always do after purchasing a used vehicle is change the oil... if you catch my drift... Anyway, as you say, case closed at this point as far as you're concerned. Link to comment
themagicone Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Or so you hope... Hopefully the dealership is 100% certain this is going sole ALL the issues, $3500 is a lot to spend if they cant give you that. Link to comment
Unhofliche_Gesundheit Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 moshe - did you do the math on the scenario whereby you give him his money back and you get the bike back? you then either fix it (used engine) or break it for parts? might be better financially for you. Link to comment
Ken H. Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 I'll chalk this one up to bad luck on both sides, and hope that what comes around goes around someday. Hopefully this retires the story. Well I for one salute you. I’m a believer in the concept of "paying foreword." Some day, in some way, this gesture will return to reward you. Probably X10. Link to comment
smiller Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Well I for one salute you. I’m a believer in the concept of "paying foreword." Some day, in some way, this gesture will return to reward you. Probably X10. Yes, maybe someday you'll be able to wreck a bike and get the seller to pay for repairs. (OK, I know I'm bad...) Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 Ouch... Hey take it easy, or you'll get me to reconsider!! Yes, I thought about taking the bike back, but it's really not in the cards for me right now. I've got a baby coming, work is crazy, and I don't have a minute of spare time. Last thing I need is another bike project to delve into. -MKL Link to comment
Richard_D Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 If you take up a collection here maybe we can raise some money for the most outstanding , honest decent member of our BMW motorcycle community. I'll chip in $20 if you post your address. I'm proud to be a member of the same group as you. Link to comment
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