Buyer's Remorse on 2004 R1150R - Please Help

[pjw73nh]

As an aside, I'm kind of surprised that the buyers did not ask for a bill of sale since most states charge sales tax on the transfer and one can run into a little trouble at the DMV if they have no way of documenting the sale price. Of course Texas just solved that problem, they now charge tax on what they think the vehicle should be worth, regardless of how much you actually paid.

 

NH has no sales tax. But has done something similar (like an excise tax) for the at least the last 29 yrs (as long as I have lived in the state). Surprisingly, they are quite fair about it. They take the MSRP of when it was new, and apply a "rate" based on each model year since. On a $40k brand new vehicle, tax is around $550. One year later it was around $400, then the next year around $250. After 5 or 6 years it bottoms out at around $30/year.

 

Paul.../NH

[NonComp]

Province of Ontario has done this since at least the 70's. If you paid less than the current blue book value, then you had to prove why it was less, or pay the difference.

[TimeToRide]

Did the bike shop check to see that the oil light was working?

 

We always put "as is where is" on a bill of sale, this made me feel uncomforable at first when talking to another enthusiest or just a good person but now I know why! In Alberta you can use the back of the registration, a commonly downloaded BOS or a piece of toilet paper but none of these has a disclaimer on it (haven't looked that closely at the TP though). The buyer needs a BOS to register the vehicle. There is no tax on the sale and nobody looks at the dollar amount, it means nothing to the province and the insurance company ends up using bluebook or replacemant cost.

 

Hope this all works out for you Moshe, common sence and Karma says it will.

[Eckhard Grohe]

In Quebec, Canada, we spread the joy around a bit and need an estimated value from a bike shop on which to base the sales tax. And, you probably guessed it buy now, it costs upwards of $20 for this estimate.

[awagnon]

Hey, Moshe. I've read this entire thread and don't recall everything. In Utah, all bikes are required to have a new safety inspection prior to getting a tag. Is that the case in NJ? If so, would a successful safety inspection imply the bike was running well when the buyer had it tagged?

[moshe_levy]

Al-

 

No, not at all. Here you get an inspection after registration and insurance. They check the lights and horn, that's about it.

 

-MKL

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Court's set for the 15th.

 

Well, today's the big day. If it ain't happened yet, best of luck to ya; once it's done (I assume judgment will be rendered today), let us know how it all went down.

[Mark K]

Yea, I can't wait to hear how it all shakes out. It's been a long time coming.....

[moshe_levy]

Well, it is over indeed. And the cynics amongst us were 100%, absolutely correct. Nice guys do finish last!

 

Buyer and I spent the whole day together shooting the breeze, as we were the very last case on the docket. From 9-4, we sat around in recess areas, even had lunch together. Hardly the war one can make this out to be from reading bits and pieces online, but I figured being civil was the least we could do.

 

Mediation failed so we went into court to watch the proceedings.

 

We were in the bleachers all day betting with each other as to who the judge would favor in each case, and as the day wore on, it became clear he liked the underdog types in jeans and T-shirts who could barely put a sentence together and had no paperwork. Deadbeats, bad tenants, non-payers. All treated like royalty. He didn't like people with facts and figures and organization. Lawyers were sneered at. People in suits who spoke well were admonished. I smiled at the buyer and jokingly admitted defeat hours before we went on.

 

 

And so when it came time to sit in front of the judge, I was clearly the more prepared of the two. I couldn't help it - it's how I am. Buyer failed to provide any documentation whatsoever, save for the final estimate and a (much) earlier e-mail exchange where I did indeed promise to pay half of the then-going estimate, which was $3500.00 at the time (that was before they dug into the bottom end). We both gave our sides of the story.

 

I gave my prepared response, and backed everything up with paperwork. Judge didn't want to look at all of it, but he did look at most. My confidence was plummeting as I compared our presentations internally and realized mine made more sense.

 

At the end, the Judge gave a 2 minute speech that essentially admonished the buyer (plaintiff) for the lawsuit and said he had absolutely failed to prove that I was responsible for the problems he encountered with the bike, or that the bike had any warranty.

 

BUT, then he said that in his opinion, a bike failing within 100 miles of being ridden away was "very suspicious," and that our e-mail exchange where I did offer to pay half of the then-estimate ($3500) was, to him, a bona fide contract. He then turned to me, and told me that instead of ruling against me for the $1750, he would allow us to go out into the hallway and settle the $1750, thus avoiding a "judgment" on my record, plus allowing me to pay it off as we could agree to. This was a "favor" he said.

 

Were it not for that e-mail, which in all honesty was quite a STOOPID thing to agree to in writing, even for a nice guy like me, plaintiff's case would have been dismissed. The judge said this in no uncertain terms. But now, I’m going to send him a check for $200 a month until the $1750 is paid.

 

The lessons learned are obvious and expensive, and will be taken to heart in the future. Live and learn, but in the grand scheme of things, I certainly can’t complain about too much. At least now it's over and there's a way forward.

 

-MKL

[Antimatter]

Thanks for posting this. It has to sting, but I appreciate the lesson.

[eddd]

Bummer, but take some solace in the fact that you've helped others to know what to avoid when they sell in the futue.

[smiller]

Well sorry it worked out that way Moshe. But I have to say that the judge probably did what he legally had to do, both in ruling that there was no case for a warranty claim and also recognizing that you did agree to compensate the buyer (and he didn't ding you for any more than you had already agreed to pay.)

 

But still it's a shame that this is the way good intentions often end up.

[Tom R.]

Moshe:

 

I have followed this saga from the beginning, and become more cynical with each passing year as I see examples such as this. I'm sorry that your kind heartedness is being punished.

 

We have all learned from your experience. Thanks for posting.

 

Tom R.

[Richard_D]

The important thing is that your a nice guy Moshe and you should sleep good at night.

[BFish]

hell, at least it's over.

[Selden]

Having followed this from the beginning, I have to say that I would have no hesitation buying a used bike from Moshe in the future. Decent people are hard to find. Sorry it worked out this way, but we have all learned from your travails.

[NonComp]

The sad thing about this, is that it is one more small step (at least for me) into cynicism. It's the reason why people don't want to get involved when they see someone in trouble. It's the reason why you can't have a civil conversation with someone about a difference of opinion. Why you can't let your guard down for a minute. Its not about what is reasonable, but about creating an unintentional contract.

 

Moshe, I congratulate you on your lack of bitterness. You are a better human being then I am. I too, would buy a used motorcycle from you without hesitation.

 

 

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Please, please please please please PLEASE, write an article about your experiences for MCN. The lessons learned bear repeating until the cows come home.

[outpost22]

Please, please please please please PLEASE, write an article about your experiences for MCN. The lessons learned bear repeating until the cows come home.

 

Yes please do write it.

 

We on this forum know that you are a class act. The greatest testimony to this is the way you handled yourself before and during this incident. I'm sure you will also be the same person in the future...you know, the one with CLASS and INTEGRITY.

 

Best wishes, and I would buy a bike from you without hesitation.

 

Now if I only had some money....

 

 

[moshe_levy]

Such an article may be a possibility, though likely when you get past my experience it will really have to delve into local state regs to be useful. Bills of sale, implied warranties and contracts, etc. etc. Dry, dry, dry....

 

Ultimately, I'm not bitter because after spending all day yesterday with the buyer, I partially remembered why I wanted to help him in the first place. I just don't have that gut feeling that he did something to destroy this bike. We will never know the root cause of why the engine blew. We can speculate this it was a gradual thing that came out of my care, or less gradual out of his care, or some defect in the motor itself that was neither person's fault. But this is behind us now, and one must remember to walk in shoes besides his own.

 

Think about this: My wife got $6500 for that bike from him last April. Now, after I pay for this, we will have $4750 left to show for the sale. It hurts, but it's not the end of the world. She got plenty of good service and memories from that motorcycle. Took her across 25 states without complaint.

 

Now let's study it from his view for a minute. He bought this bike for $6,500.00. I saw the receipts yesterday, and he indeed paid the dealer about $1,100.00 to tear down the motor. He also paid another $200 or so to tow the carcass back and forth until he got it back home, in boxes, where it's been sitting since last spring. So that's $7,800.00 he's out for a bike that's good for an anchor at this point. We discussed it yesterday and he's decided to part it out rather than try to resurrect it and deal with more drama from used motors and more mechanics.

 

So now he's got to go downstairs and painstakingly disassemble everything, organize it, take pictures of all the parts, advertise them, pack and ship them, deal with the logistics, the inevitable payment issues, etc. etc. He's not a professional mechanic by a long shot, so that's going to be double digit hours plowed into this effort. At the end, what's he going to net not counting his time? $3500? $4000 at most? If so, this experience still cost him a helluva lot more than it cost me.

 

I appreciate the kind words and support everyone has shown me. I stay upbeat because I have learned the hard way that like attracts like. My wife works as a pediatric oncology nurse, and seeing her at work has truly transformed my outlook about what I have a right to get upset about. Stuff like this R1150R episode just happens, and in the grand scheme, is about as meaningful as a knat on the ass. It's just money, and I can go make more. Next time you feel upset about something on this level, go volunteer at your local children's hospital. You'll find you feel quite stupid about feeling upset in the first place.

 

-MKL

[Rich06FJR1300]

he's not even goign to attempt to get this bike back on the road? what ashame.

[SANTA]

Moshe;

 

you have my respect, not many of us here would have been as generous as you have been. This my friend comes under the category of "turning the other cheek". Hope to meet you at the UN and buy you a beer.

 

 

[moshe_levy]

he's not even goign to attempt to get this bike back on the road? what ashame.

 

Nope. He's had enough of the mechanics and the bills. What he wants now is to see some money coming in to make up some of what he's spent so far. That's his story - seems plausible.

 

It was a great, wonderful bike for us. My wife is sad as she only sold it so it wouldn't sit and rot here since she was pregnant and doesn't want to ride now that the baby's here. Now it just sitting and rotting somewhere else. Crappy end to its otherwise glorious life.

 

-MKL

[EffBee]

I appreciate the kind words and support everyone has shown me. I stay upbeat because I have learned the hard way that like attracts like. My wife works as a pediatric oncology nurse, and seeing her at work has truly transformed my outlook about what I have a right to get upset about. Stuff like this R1150R episode just happens, and in the grand scheme, is about as meaningful as a knat on the ass. It's just money, and I can go make more. Next time you feel upset about something on this level, go volunteer at your local children's hospital. You'll find you feel quite stupid about feeling upset in the first place.

 

-MKL

Moshe, that is EXACTLY why people like you live more peaceful lives. I, like everyone, have issues with certain things in life. But I volunteer at a mission. And even though they only need me once a month, when you see the plight of others, you realize what's really important. My paternal grandmother used to tell me, when I was very young, "I complained because I had no shoes. Until I met a man who had no feet." It was a story back then. It didn't sink in during my idealistic youth, when I thought nothing was my fault and someone else should have to pay for my failures. But later, when I began to have accountability for my actions and take personal responsibility for my life, and through that succeeded to where I could help others, I came to understand it. Now it's how I try and live (not always successfully, but when I falter I know how to cure that).

 

You have learned this lesson far earlier in life than I did. And you're far better off because of it.

[bmw_rider]

The buyer never 'accepted' your offer, nor was the any 'consideration' given therefore there was no contract, I believe your judge errored (guilted) you into a payment plan.

[JamesW]

The buyer never 'accepted' your offer, nor was the any 'consideration' given therefore there was no contract, I believe your judge errored (guilted) you into a payment plan.

 

I got to agree. I would have have stood right there and told that so-called judge just what he could do with his two bit half witted horse'sass opinion because that's just what it is! Furthermore, I would have flat refused to accept this and I dam sure wouldn't pay this moron a dime! There, I feel better now.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Such an article may be a possibility, though likely when you get past my experience it will really have to delve into local state regs to be useful. Bills of sale, implied warranties and contracts, etc. etc. Dry, dry, dry....

 

I think it would still be a helpful article - both the details of your own experience, and pointing out where things might differ from one state to another.

[ratfink]

Moshe:

 

I think you were wise to settle the way you did. Having a judgement against you is a public record and has a negative impact on your credit score. While the judge was not your friend in this matter he did you a small favor.

[tallman]

I deleted a very long post when I first read the result.

Others have voiced what I felt at the time.

There was no contract.

But, and a big butt it is , when you're in a court like that, the judge's fiat is law.

 

Move on.

In the long run merely a bump in the road on the journey...

 

I do think an article that outlines basics of sales issues, what to do if the bike is damaged when sold, what to do if the "buyer" damages the bike on a test ride, how to avoid problems, etc. might be of benefit.

We've had long threads about test rides of personal bikes put up for sale.

[NonComp]

Conventional wisdom might point out that in cases like this, when neither party walks away completely happy, then the judge has done his job.

[JamesW]

I'll tell you what...you just tell this guy that you are like a freeking turnip and when is the last time anybody got blood out of a turnip?

 

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about my so called credit score because some things are just more important. There is such a thing as the court of common sense and I think that counts for a bunch. Pay this guy 200 bucks a month? No way no how! He bought the bike in as is condition and he knew that the day he took possession. Doesn't matter you didn't write in on a bill of sale. The dumb ass judge should have asked the guy if he thought there was any warranty expressed or emplied because the guy would have had to answer in the negative and that would have ended any further discussion. The judge didn't do his job. This kind of thing just encourages more of these bogus law suits.

 

I'm done.

[Uncle Beemer]

I'll tell you what...you just tell this guy that you are like a freeking turnip and when is the last time anybody got blood out of a turnip?

 

Oh, and I wouldn't worry about my so called credit score because some things are just more important. There is such a thing as the court of common sense and I think that counts for a bunch. Pay this guy 200 bucks a month? No way no how! He bought the bike in as is condition and he knew that the day he took possession. Doesn't matter you didn't write in on a bill of sale. The dumb ass judge should have asked the guy if he thought there was any warranty expressed or emplied because the guy would have had to answer in the negative and that would have ended any further discussion. The judge didn't do his job. This kind of thing just encourages more of these bogus law suits.

 

I'm done.

Moshe is not any worse off. He had already offered to pay the guy $1750.00. If he doesn't pay now, it's entirely possible for the new owner to go back to court. The judge is not going to like hearing this case again. Besides, Moshe has a reputation to defend. His reputation is worth more than a few bucks.

[Ken H.]

The sad thing about this, is that it is one more small step (at least for me) into cynicism.

Whiles there's some truth to that (not that I'm ever a cynic), the way Moshe has handled this should at least give evidence that there still is the other side. It may be dwindling to be sure, but at least it still exist!

[Whip]

How much ya think he wants for the bike as is?????

 

 

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Sadly, in many cases, the judges function is not to dispense justice, just to clear his case load and he will do it in the most expedient way. Sounds like this case was just such a one. "Y'all go out in the hall and work this out so that the party of the second part pays the party of the first part $1750." Bang of gavel, next case.

 

Pitiful!!

[moshe_levy]

How much ya think he wants for the bike as is?????

 

 

I dunno. Interested?

 

-MKL

[Whip]

How much ya think he wants for the bike as is?????

 

 

I dunno. Interested?

 

-MKL

 

Sure!!!

 

If the price is right, I bet I could find a motor and have a great bike.

 

 

[Jim Moore]

My paternal grandmother used to tell me, when I was very young, "I complained because I had no shoes. Until I met a man who had no feet."

 

My gramps told me the same thing. "I complained because I had no shoes. Until I met a man who had no feet. So I took his shoes. I mean, he wasn't using them. Right?"

[moshe_levy]

 

Sure!!!

 

If the price is right, I bet I could find a motor and have a great bike.

 

 

PM me and let me know what "price is right" means to you, and I'll find out what he is trying to get.

 

-MKL

[Bruce H]

When you all get ready I'v got a motor.

[pjw73nh]

Moshe,

 

I had a fairly lengthy email written and then decided rather than beat a dead horse, I would shorten it to this one. It was basically a reiteration of what many others here on the forum have said. You are man of principles, honor and integrity. You DESERVE to sleep well at night. I am also in agreement with many others that the judge did not do his job. He let his emotions interfere with justice. No contract was EVER created. Express or implied.

 

Moving forward, please, anyone selling a motor vehicle that they don't want to get a wedding ring from. Please be sure to at least include in the bill of sale (whether your state requires one or not) "THIS VEHICLE IS SOLD AS IS, WHERE IS AND WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES (EXPRESS OR IMPLIED) OR STIPULATIONS PERTAINING TO IT."

 

Moshe, I wish you the best... You are a gentleman.

 

Paul.../NH

[JamesW]

Hi Moshe, these guys that talk about how great you can sleep at night.....if I were you I would laugh at that. I wouldn't be sleeping well at all in fact I would be up all night sticking pins in my voodoo judge doll.

 

Here's a thought, be late on every single monthly payment as in REAL late. Also, if you pay this guy the 1.75K then maybe you ought to take a cut out of any bucks he makes when he sells or parts out the bike.

 

Sleep well at night, jeeeez...give me a break. You been wronged and that's all there is to it!

[bmw_rider]

And leave it at that, no post sale conversations regarding participating in repairs of any kind.

[Missouri Bob]

Moshe:

 

You have given me things to consider when I sell the R1200ST. In the Spring, I might just see what (if anything) the dealers in Denver will offer me for a straight sale.

 

Frankly, I admire how well you treated the buyer. If only everyone were as decent.

 

Bob

[Quinn]

Funny how noone has said "Gee, I'm sure glad I didn't buy that bike. Glad I don't know what it feels like to plunk down that much money only to have it turn into a money pit a hundred miles later." And after this nice guy tells me all about keeping up the maintence and never having any problems with it; suddenly the motor grinds itself to nothing. Wow, I'd be suspecting some funny business in this deal. At least when he called you after, he didn't hear, "Ha-ha, gottcha."

 

---

 

 

[4wheeldog]

Funny how noone has said "Gee, I'm sure glad I didn't buy that bike. Glad I don't know what it feels like to plunk down that much money only to have it turn into a money pit a hundred miles later." And after this nice guy tells me all about keeping up the maintence and never having any problems with it; suddenly the motor grinds itself to nothing. Wow, I'd be suspecting some funny business in this deal. At least when he called you after, he didn't hear, "Ha-ha, gottcha."

 

---

 

 

The other side of it is that there is every possibility that he new owner caused the damage.....Either by changing the oil and forgeting to fill it, or dropping it and letting it run laying on its side. Hard to imagine how you would know to sell a bike 100 miles before it turns to crap......Without some indication of trouble when the deal is made.

[tallman]

Quinn,

I don't believe the type of damage and failure reported was likely in a well maintained, running w/out any issues, boxer of that mileage.

There should have been signs.

Granted, anything is possible, but even worst case scenarion, for both, Moshe did what he said he did and bike was fine, buyer didn't do anything to cause it, stuff happens.

That is why the expressoin caveat emptor exists.

If a buyer wants protection on a used vehicle, buy it from a dealer w/warranty, or seek out a third party warranty (readily available) and put it in place before riding off with the bike.

I took a test ride in a brand new car, drove it 2 miles to my houose and 1.85 miles back to the dealership.

I went home to pick up my wife.

CCar died and was pushed back the last 7-800 feet by a cadre of salesmen.

Stuff happens.

How one chooses to protect yourself from that possibility is up to each individual.

If I was concerned I'd buy a thrid party warranty.

Easy enpough to do.

Test bike, trailer home, make phone call, send money, ride with peace of mind.

Best wishes.

[Slainte]

Moshe,

I've follwed this all the way. You are a clss act in the way you have handeled the situation. Glad you can move on with such a positive point of view. I'm not sure I'd be as insightful in your circumstance.

An article in MCN would be great, but I do understand the logistics involved.