John844 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Richard, that's a great idea. Moshe, do you have a paypal account? Link to comment
Boone60 Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Richard, that's a great idea. Moshe, do you have a paypal account? +1 In Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 8, 2009 Author Share Posted May 8, 2009 Wow... Amazing. You guys are something else. I ought to have bad luck more often! After the other various financial bad news I received today unrelated to this whole ordeal, I ain't too proud to accept - my account is same as my e-mail, moshe_levy@yahoo.com I hope I'm not being a total a-hole by accepting this generous offer. I was never much good at this manners stuff. -MKL Link to comment
10ovr Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 They say the cheapest thing on a BMW is the rider,,You blow that myth away I think what you did was great,,I dont think you well ever have a problem selling a used bike after this,Hell I well be first in line, :thumbsup:I would have no problem pitching in... Money sent,Hope this helps,, Link to comment
Richard_D Posted May 8, 2009 Share Posted May 8, 2009 Check your pay-pal ! I hope this helps Moshe ! Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 9, 2009 Author Share Posted May 9, 2009 You guys are fantastic. If you ever have the undeserved misfortune of being around the NJ area, drinks are on me. -MKL Link to comment
Richard_D Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 If you ever come to Daytona Bike Week I'll take that drink ! Link to comment
Mark_Turner Posted May 9, 2009 Share Posted May 9, 2009 Sympathy donation has been made to your PayPal account! Link to comment
CT_Rider Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Well, since my bike looks a whole lot like yours... I'm in. Link to comment
DonW Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 This Board is so tremendously valualbe to me, and Moshe's contributions add enormouslty to that- $25 on its way... Don Link to comment
Mark K Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 This could soooo happen to me.......I need to start banking some good karma. I'm in Link to comment
tazplas Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Done - paid forward Cheers Steve Link to comment
ArthurKnowles Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Having been (OK still, but getting better) in a poor financial position I completely understand. And having won the BMW raffle so I don't have to pay the dealer to fix my 96, I'm going to kick in a few bucks too. Wich I could do more but I had to pay out of pocket for my new RT upgrade and still have to tax/title/plate it this week. Hope it helps... Art Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 Guys- I'm pretty speechless (a rare thing) at your outpouring of generosity. Thanks so much. The buyer just called me. Over the weekend, the dealer ripped apart the cases and found shards of metal at the bottom, and large gouges near the oil pump, which they suspect led to sudden drop in oil pressure and the resulting damage. I don't have further details yet, but clearly we're closer to a viable explanation now. So I offered the buyer to contact BMWNA on his behalf and see if they can be of assistance. Does anyone have a good point of contact there, or a number to call? Appreciate it. -MKL Link to comment
Richard_D Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I dealt with BMWNA in New Jersey when I had a problem bike. Good idea Moshe ! Link to comment
Richard_D Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Moshe, Have you contacted BMWNA ? Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 I did. Told them the story, and they said I had done all I could, and now they needed to talk to the buyer, and perhaps set up a visit to the dealer to check things out. So I then put the buyer in direct contact with the guy I spoke to at BMWNA yesterday afternoon. Haven't heard anything since. If NA gets involved and helps to defray some of these costs, all of you are getting your overly generous Paypal donations back. I've saved all the e-mails and am just waiting to hear back from someone as to what's going on. Will report back when I do. -MKL Link to comment
10ovr Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I think its like a rule or something that you cant give back gifts or donations,Sorry dude,Your stuck with it Link to comment
Ham Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I let my friend ride my bike and coicidentally, the sidestand springs broke on it. Do I blame him? Absolutely not. Do I expect him to pay for it? Nope. Things break and anything used is up to the buyer to fully inspect. I know if I bought something used and if it broke, tough on me. It's all part of the resale territory. It's nice that you're trying to be nice, but you really have no obligation to play Mr. Warranty. edit: You have diapers and formulas to buy now!!! Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Update: BMWNA conferred with the dealer, did not send anyone down there, and is trying to side step the issue. Unfortunately, the dealer is taking the line that the bike at some point was operated without oil or with extremely low oil. It's sadly a "cover your ass" line which puts the blame on the customer, and not on the product. I should think after owning 5 BMWs (plus 9 cars in the family), and the buyer owning 2 himself, that they would show a little more concern. Not to mention the fact that I write extensively (and usually quite favorably) about BMWs in a major national publication - I find it insulting to a degree that the dealer (where I've spent thousands) is now insinuating that I cannot properly perform an oil change or that the bike was somehow abused, which it was not. I've never even seen the oil light illuminated while riding on any BMW I've ever owned. I've asked the buyer to try again at NA, up the food chain. We'll see where this goes, but I fear this will eventually wind up in a confrontation with the dealership. They have much to lose if they choose to be unreasonable. -MKL Link to comment
AndyS Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Hi Moshe sorry to be disagreable with you in the text that follows below - for I sypathise with both you and your buyer. However, why should you expect BMWNA or your dealer to offer anything with a bike that is now almost 5 years old and of course (as far as they are concerned) an untraceable history. They are taking a line (which I think is not unreasonable) not unlike the other posters in this thread; that suggest however unfortunate it is for the new owner, it is not now either the legal (and arguably the moral)responsibility of the seller. And by seller I mean both BWM 1st time round, and you - 2nd time round. You finish by saying'They have much to lose if they choose to be unreasonable', what is that and why? Andy Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Actually, I have doubt that this problem could occur outside of the oil pump sucking wind. I believe you that the bike never ran without oil pressure while in your possession. But it is difficult to understand how symptoms of oil starvation can happen out of the blue without the pump becoming un-submerged. Sherlock Holmes famous line applies.......When you have eliminated the impossible, only the unlikely remains. I still suspect the new owner somehow ran the bike laying on its side. From the perspective of someone being objective, I have a hard time seeing how you, or BMWNA, is on the hook at all. You are just in too subjective a position to evaluate the evidence. YMMV. Good Luck. Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 The buyer just called me. Over the weekend, the dealer ripped apart the cases and found shards of metal at the bottom, and large gouges near the oil pump, which they suspect led to sudden drop in oil pressure and the resulting damage. If I read this right, you/they are saying the shards of metal and large gouges near the oil pump led to a loss of oil pressure. Some questions: How are those shards/gouges believed to have lead to a loss of oil pressure? What is the suspected original cause of those shards/gouges? Are they something that is believed to have happened at the factory or (somehow) within the original warranty period? Is that why you're trying to involve BMWNA? I find it insulting to a degree that the dealer (where I've spent thousands) is now insinuating that I cannot properly perform an oil change or that the bike was somehow abused, which it was not. You seem to be overlooking the last 100 miles, during which the bike was not under your care, control or ownership... Link to comment
Rich06FJR1300 Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 kind of in agreement with AndyS, also the fact that is why they have time limits on warranties. I kind of figured that BMW would react this way, i was the 2nd owner and they gave me no attention for some of the issues i had (so i sold the bike) but that is another story. Seems a lot of people here don't trust the buyer but if you look at moshe's site, he documents the R bikes maintenance history. He went approxmiately 9,000 miles between oil changes after a cross country trip. Could that cause the damage? who knows? This situation may wind up in the courts to get settled. Link to comment
smiller Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 You seem to be overlooking the last 100 miles, during which the bike was not under your care, control or ownership... Yes, they're not necessarily suggesting that you can't perform a proper oil change, just that someone can't... And as Mitch hints, the issue here is the chicken or the egg... was there a defect in materials or workmanship that caused a failure (at a very coincidental time), or was the damage due to some other cause? The answer will determine whether BMW has any responsibility here or not. Link to comment
Paul Mihalka Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 "The answer will determine whether BMW has any responsibility here or not." BMW has NO responsibility after the warranty period ended. Some times they help, and they call it "good will" warranty for a reason. Some times they don't. Link to comment
smiller Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 BMW has NO responsibility after the warranty period ended. Some times they help, and they call it "good will" warranty for a reason. Some times they don't. That's actually what I meant, didn't mean to imply that every out-of-warranty failure represents some prima facie responsibility from BMW. Really meant to say that only in the case of a manufacturing or materials defect should one even ask. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 I agree with you 100% Seth. I was and still am counting on some "good will" here IF (and only if) it can be somehow shown that whatever those "shards" of metal are were a) not a result of owner negligence but manufacturing defect and b) caused the resultant oil pump issues If these two points are met, I think it would be nice to see BMW help, as they have other owners I know whose bikes were out of warranty when they had failures. In this regard, I have good confidence in the company as I always have. My beef if any here is with the dealer, who is not taking an analytical view of the problem, but rather just saying "oil starvation" and that's it. No why, just what. Any idiot can tell you what's in front of him after the fact. I'd like to know why, which is why I urged the owner to take it to Tom Cutter, who at the very least could offer a (very respectable) opinion as to... why. Depending on where this goes I just may insist on that before I pay a dime. At least then I know the diagnosis and work is done right. Why in a very major way affects the degree of responsibility I take in this, despite what I am legally or not legally obligated to do. To me there's often no relation between law and justice anyway. That bears repeating to those who harp on that point. Two other points were raised, those being: 1) Yes, on our cross country trip of one month in May 2007, we went the entire way without an oil change - about 9,300 miles. That was about 5,000 miles ago on this R, and about 20,000 miles ago on my RT. Others in here have posted Blackstone reports showing oil is still good in that range, so I have my doubts that this is the culprit now, out of the blue. 2) What does the dealer have to lose? If I see them as being less than thorough, which is so far what I am seeing, they will lose my business. I have 4 BMW motorcycles, so for one owner this is a good amount of parts and maintenance. And they will lose the business of anyone I can convince accordingly. They already have a shaky rep for just this sort of thing, and I think it would behoove them to take a close look at the root cause of things rather than focus on simple parts replacement. We'll see where this goes. -MKL Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 He went approxmiately 9,000 miles between oil changes after a cross country trip. Could that cause the damage? who knows? A number of people here have had professional oil analyses done on their used motorcycle oil. I don't recall specifics, but I know that in at least some cases it was shown that the oil could be safely used to considerably more than 9K miles. I'd have reservations about buying a bike that had gone 100K+ miles on a series of 9K-mile oil changes, but based on what I've read here, I wouldn't expect a single 9K-mile oil change interval to cause problems. Link to comment
smiller Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Unfortunately short of some obvious mechanical failure of the oil pump it may be difficult to ever really know for sure. If the engine was run without oil and then oil put in it's kind of like an untraceable poison... the damage is done but it's just about impossible to prove what caused it. Link to comment
Andrew B Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Not a case of the oil level window blowing out unoticed is it? I would believe the chunks of metal are an effect, not a cause. By the way does anyone have a drawing of an exploded engine? Link to comment
georgeb Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Did anyone save a sample of the oil to send for analysis? That is a requirement for warranty claims for Amsoil and it sounds like something they would look into. Under the Magnussen Moss Warranty Act, vehicle manufacturers in the US, when denying a claim which would otherwise be covered under the warranty, are required to provide the consumer with a written reason for denial of warranty coverage, showing the reason for the failure. The oil analysis would likely substantiate that claim or nullify it by identifying any increase in common wear materials for that type of engine. Link to comment
smiller Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Did anyone save a sample of the oil to send for analysis? That is a requirement for warranty claims for Amsoil and it sounds like something they would look into. Under the Magnussen Moss Warranty Act, vehicle manufacturers in the US, when denying a claim which would otherwise be covered under the warranty, are required to provide the consumer with a written reason for denial of warranty coverage, showing the reason for the failure. The oil analysis would likely substantiate that claim or nullify it by identifying any increase in common wear materials for that type of engine. The bike isn't under warranty. And in the case of a catastrophic failure like this an oil analysis would show lots of wear metals in the oil but probably couldn't tell you much about the cause other than an insufficient oil supply, which we already know. Link to comment
DaveTheAffable Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Sorry it's late... but another "gift" is on it's way. Be Well! Link to comment
Rich06FJR1300 Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 any updates on the situation? Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 21, 2009 Author Share Posted May 21, 2009 Nothing since my last update on May 15. I'm keeping my ears peeled but I haven't heard a word. Like I said before, if this somehow "goes away" I've saved every single e-mail from every person was was kind enough to offer help, and everyone will get every cent back. I still can't believe the generosity of this group! -MKL Link to comment
Richard_D Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 Don't send my money back. I'd rather have a large BMW t-shirt from your part of the country or donate it to this site. Link to comment
Ewell D. Posted May 21, 2009 Share Posted May 21, 2009 +1 If you find you have money left over I am for donating my contribution to this site. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 22, 2009 Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 All- That's fine by me. If this blows over, it's your money, and if you all want to donate it here I'll do so, and kick in some myself to boot. Let's give it a little while and see what happens. With interest rates where they are, we're not exactly losing anything by waiting... -MKL Link to comment
tallman Posted May 22, 2009 Share Posted May 22, 2009 Moshe, I just boought a used truck. Two factors were mileage and tires. WEnt w/lower miles that also happened to have great looking tires on it. Should've gone 30-40k no problem. 600 miles later, one of the tires separates. One never knows. I replaced the remaining tires too although this was a cost not factored into the purchase based on inspection and appearance. Stuff happens. Good luck. Link to comment
oze Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 caveat emptor Having said that - you seem sincere ... unless or course you have faked sincerity in which case you have it made :-) ... and naturally you feel bad. Whoever bought the bike should be asking people here for advice not you. if it happens at operating temperature I tend to agree with an earlier comment that it could be fuel line related or electronics rather than mechanical. Link to comment
moshe_levy Posted May 27, 2009 Author Share Posted May 27, 2009 All- Today I received another e-mail from the buyer, with an ultimatum - refund him the full purchase price of the bike, or he goes to a lawyer. The dealer, meanwhile, stands by the assertion that the engine repair (parts & labor) is now hovering around $6,000.00. I patiently explained the following to the buyer: 1) An engine with similar mileage can be had from Beemer Boneyard or some other source for about $1k. Give a good wrench the job to install it, and you're still nowhere near $6k. Often times, repairs are quoted high as an inducement to getting the customer to just junk the old machine and buy new. 2) When lawyers are involved in anything, all that happens is they get rich and the clients get zilch. Up until this point, he's had my full cooperation. I've gone to the dealer for him, made inquiries for him, worked to find solutions, called BMWNA, etc. But once someone mentions "lawyer" I automatically cringe at this person's capacity to work together towards a just solution everyone can deal with. We'll see where this goes - I'm still willing to help, but not to pay for the mess he's made of the bike so far, or to pay this dealer the blue book value of this bike (in perfect shape) for an engine rebuild. -MKL Link to comment
Tony_K Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Your states small claims court max limit is 3,000. So if he wants more he's going to need to take it to a higer power at much more expense. He's full of chit. The sale was for a used as is vehicle. You went above and beyond on your part. No good deed goes unpunished. Link to comment
MrHondamatic Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Sounds like its time to circle the wagons and hire an attorney of your own. If you sold the bike as-is with no warranty, implied or otherwise, he is pretty much on his own. You have done more than you ever legally should have. Remember, nice guys finish last. Link to comment
10ovr Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Find out what he law is in your state,If you are within the law,Tell him to stick it up his a$$,,,You dont need a attorney,,,You have no clue what he did too that bike after he bought it ..It just dose not pay to be nice these days,,, Link to comment
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