New RoadSmarts = Dropped Bike

[David]

What if you hit a patch of black ice on a turn? Do you think any amount of throttle control will help?

 

No, and neither will the condition of your tires.

[tallman]

David,

The kind of riding needed is, simply, riding.

Long enough to heat the tire, the tire compounds, then cool off, and heat again.

That would be ideal.

It truly has (w/modern tire compounds) nothing to do w/lean angles, scuffing,

or the like.

Again, this is based on conversations w/tire compound engineers, the MCN article, and other reading.

Then getting the tire to the "edge" is less adventurous.

Riding around in figure eights, taking a sander to the tires, neither will heat the trire in the manner the manufacturer states.

The Michelin link said 50k I think, others say similar things.

Essentially long enough to completely cure the compound.

Even then, there is a caustion about extreme lean angles.

Of course this is lawyer/conservative, but I've seen and heard of plenty of new bikes, under slow controlled throttles, having a tire slide.

It is the exception and not the rule, so there is no absolute here.

 

Best wishes.

 

[David]

David,

The kind of riding needed is, simply, riding.

Long enough to heat the tire, the tire compounds, then cool off, and heat again.

That would be ideal.

It truly has (w/modern tire compounds) nothing to do w/lean angles, scuffing,

or the like.

 

Tim, you'll have to show me some evidence before I believe that. I'm open to it, but it runs counter to the information I've seen.

[tallman]

Heading out shortly, if I can find my copy of the MCN testing I'll link it.

Did that previously on these threads.

Otherwise it'll be later...

[russell_bynum]

1) What kind of riding takes a STREET tire (not a track tire) into and out of a heat cycle? I'll answer that and say it has absolutely nothing to do with distance or acceleration or braking, which leaves cornering.

 

My understanding is that sidewall flex is what puts heat into the carcass (hence the reason that lower tire pressures generally result in a hotter tire). As such, it seems like acceleration and braking would do the best job.

 

 

[knight88]

+1 on the hundred mile scrub in. Maybe it's necessary; maybe it's not, but it certainly does no harm.

 

Robert

 

Why not make it 10,000 miles?

 

Probably not necessary, but certainly does no harm.

 

In my opinion if nothing else for the peace of mind of the rider it is well worth the 100 mile scrub-in irregardless if you need it or not. Many riders are not as good as you are on new tires, and feel a lot more comfortable scrubbing the tires for a 100 miles even if it isn't needed just to feel confident about their tire. You need to feel confident about your equiptment or you will never feel safe and I think it is the riders call, not anyone elses, so I say let them do it for 200 miles if that makes them feel more confident in their tire performance.

BTW I don't think the tires will make it to a 10,000 miles scrub in.

 

[Linz]

I still advocate washing the tires down after a good soaking with CT 18 Truck Wash overnight before going for a decent ride. It's worked for me.

 

I have a length of grippy mountain road that I use for progressive scrubbing in of the tires over a 25 mile run. If they're not scrubbed in after that, they aren't going to be.

 

I have a half hour freeway run to get to the road, that takes care of the centers. I only need to build up to the full edge of the tire by the end of the run. Done.

 

As my tire shop insists on giving a verbal warning to me with each fitting, I can only assume there is a real issue and some people ignore it.

 

Linz

[russell_bynum]

David,

The kind of riding needed is, simply, riding.

Long enough to heat the tire, the tire compounds, then cool off, and heat again.

That would be ideal.

It truly has (w/modern tire compounds) nothing to do w/lean angles, scuffing,

or the like.

Again, this is based on conversations w/tire compound engineers, the MCN article, and other reading.

Then getting the tire to the "edge" is less adventurous.

Riding around in figure eights, taking a sander to the tires, neither will heat the trire in the manner the manufacturer states.

The Michelin link said 50k I think, others say similar things.

Essentially long enough to completely cure the compound.

 

 

If heat cycles is what they want, then the 50km recommendation is woefully misleading. I could jump on my bike, ride 50km on the freeway to get to my favorite twisty location, and arrive assuming I was in good shape (after all...I've been the recommended 50km). If what they really want is for me to ride for a while to get the tire up to temp and then let it cool, then heat it up again, etc, then why wouldn't they say that?

 

Also...if failure to properly heat cycle the tire was the cause of the OP's accident, then why wouldn't that also be a problem for everyone else? i.e. The manufacturing process should be fairly consistent across the board, so if new tires are like riding on ice until you heat cycle them, that should be the case for all new tires. Clearly it isn't.

 

For that matter, if the problem was mold release or preservative applied during the manufacturing process, that should also be fairly consistent across the board. If the OP crashed because of mold release or preservative, then all (or at least most) new tires should be similarly slippery. Clearly, that isn't the case either.

 

 

To me, this all seems to point back to either something slippery that got picked up during installation (or even transportation/storage of the tire) and/or too much throttle/lean on cold tires.

 

I'm willing to accept the idea that a few heat cycles might help cure the rubber an give you more grip, or better wear (I've heard both of those statements). But that's clearly not what the OP's problem was.

[David]

1) What kind of riding takes a STREET tire (not a track tire) into and out of a heat cycle? I'll answer that and say it has absolutely nothing to do with distance or acceleration or braking, which leaves cornering.

 

My understanding is that sidewall flex is what puts heat into the carcass (hence the reason that lower tire pressures generally result in a hotter tire). As such, it seems like acceleration and braking would do the best job.

 

I don't believe it's heat cycles that's needed--just some very mild scrubbing. My questions to Tim were hypothetical. I don't think they are on the right track.

[russell_bynum]

+1 on the hundred mile scrub in. Maybe it's necessary; maybe it's not, but it certainly does no harm.

 

Robert

 

Why not make it 10,000 miles?

 

Probably not necessary, but certainly does no harm.

 

In my opinion if nothing else for the peace of mind of the rider it is well worth the 100 mile scrub-in irregardless if you need it or not. Many riders are not as good as you are on new tires, and feel a lot more comfortable scrubbing the tires for a 100 miles even if it isn't needed just to feel confident about their tire. You need to feel confident about your equiptment or you will never feel safe and I think it is the riders call, not anyone elses, so I say let them do it for 200 miles if that makes them feel more confident in their tire performance.

BTW I don't think the tires will make it to a 10,000 miles scrub in.

 

Sure, absolutely.

 

But I thought what we were talking about here was actual facts. I'm not discounting the importance of rider confidence and I'm sure I do some strange things that aren't really necessary because they make me feel better. But if we're talking about the technical facts of new tires and traction (i.e. what is 'necessary'), then we should stick to facts.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

1) What kind of riding takes a STREET tire (not a track tire) into and out of a heat cycle? I'll answer that and say it has absolutely nothing to do with distance or acceleration or braking, which leaves cornering.

 

My understanding is that sidewall flex is what puts heat into the carcass (hence the reason that lower tire pressures generally result in a hotter tire). As such, it seems like acceleration and braking would do the best job.

 

I don't believe it's heat cycles that's needed--just some very mild scrubbing. My questions to Tim were hypothetical. I don't think they are on the right track.

 

I don't know if it (heat cycle) is necessary or not. It seems like if tires were really dangerous until they were heated/cooled a few times, the manufacturers would just include a baking/cooling time in the manufacturing process. That would (if heat cycles were what's needed to prevent the typical "new tire" crash) eliminate all of the liability from such crashes and it seems like that could quickly pay for the added expense of the process.

 

I was just responding to your statement that distance/braking/accelerating isn't the way to put heat into a tire. I think those are exactly how you'd put heat into a tire.

[David]

I don't know if it (heat cycle) is necessary or not. It seems like if tires were really dangerous until they were heated/cooled a few times, the manufacturers would just include a baking/cooling time in the manufacturing process. That would (if heat cycles were what's needed to prevent the typical "new tire" crash) eliminate all of the liability from such crashes and it seems like that could quickly pay for the added expense of the process.

 

That's my assumption, too. The reason they wouldn't do it on a street tire is because it's largely immune from heat cycles. It doesn't help or hurt a street tire. Even more, they operate in a very narrow range of temperature. Thus why I think scrubbing is the issue.

 

On a track tire, they essentially don't want to WASTE one of the limited heat cycles, since they are so few. The reason you use tire warmers is not to keep them warm--it's to keep them from cooling down and using up a heat/cool cycle.

 

I was just responding to your statement that distance/braking/accelerating isn't the way to put heat into a tire. I think those are exactly how you'd put heat into a tire.

 

Not on a street tire that's properly inflated. Distance won't do it at all. The sort of braking/accelerating that will do it to a properly inflated street tire would be so extreme that you'd be endangering people and property.

[russell_bynum]

 

That's my assumption, too. The reason they wouldn't do it on a street tire is because it's largely immune from heat cycles. It doesn't help or hurt a street tire. Even more, they operate in a very narrow range of temperature. Thus why I think scrubbing is the issue.

 

The more I think about it, the more that makes sense. A street tire is expected to endure thousands of heating/cooling cycles. If they were as impacted by heating/cooling as race tires, they'd be shot after a typical week of riding.

 

One thing, though...I think you have it backwards (or I misunderstood)...I think street tires operate (i.e. provide good traction without getting so hot they start to melt) across a much bigger temperature range than race tires. That's why tire pressure can be such a huge thing for race tires, but not such a big deal for street tires. Yes?

[David]

I meant that street tires themselves operate in a narrow temperature range. They function well in temperature extremes.

[russell_bynum]

I meant that street tires themselves operate in a narrow temperature range. They function well in temperature extremes.

 

OK, I gotcha.

[Couchrocket]

I don't know if you're addressing me or Ed, but I really don't want this thread to get personal. That seems like a waste of energy.

 

I'm more interested in a useful discussion, so I'm going to pick my battles here.

 

Sorry to have gotten you riled up, Richard. That wasn't my intent.

 

I use my headlight modulator when I'm breaking in new tires. Since I've never fallen down on brand new tires, I know it is the headlight modulator. Throttle control? Pfffffh....

[AndyS]

There should be a big warning label on all new tires that warn about a 100 mile burn in.

 

Just like the labels they put on lawnmowers, that say "Do not pick this mower up to trim your hedges"

 

Sorry quick rant inbound!

How many other warning labels do you guys want!

I could write an ENDLESS list of precautions and warnings for use with a motorcycle.

User responsibility and sensitivity is what is needed, not labels.

The sooner courts stop this stupid litigation mentality the better. We all need to be more responsible for our own actions.

Ah, I feel much better for that!

Andy

 

[tomk99r11]

You get and AMEN to that Andy. In the US the majority of Congressmen and Representatives are lawyers. No wonder approval ratings are around 10%. But then I digress....

[Perlova]

Sorry quick rant inbound!

How many other warning labels do you guys want!

I could write an ENDLESS list of precautions and warnings for use with a motorcycle.

User responsibility and sensitivity is what is needed, not labels.

The sooner courts stop this stupid litigation mentality the better. We all need to be more responsible for our own actions.

Ah, I feel much better for that!

Andy

That's baloney. We are not talking about the risks associated with riding a bike. I know those and understand them. We are talking about product liability.

 

Suppose BMW made a front fork that arbitrarily failed at random intervals. Is that a risk that is something I should take responsibility for? No I assume that if BMW knows about this risk, they will fix it.

 

Then why should a tire manufacturer ship a tire that is known to be slippery for 100 miles? Is there any reason why they can't spin that tire at the end of the manufacturing process and completely remove the form release or whatever is making it slippery? The answer is NO!!! Can you imagine if the first time you put on a new set of tires on your passenger vehicle, you have to drive in a straight line for 100 miles to avoid spinning out? Sometimes it takes a kick to the wallet or to the bottom line for a manufacturer to do the right thing.

 

[Boffin]

We are not talking about the risks associated with riding a bike. I know those and understand them. We are talking about product liability

 

That's baloney. The tyres are shipped with warning labels.

This is a well known occurence. You have a responsibility to furnish yourself with all the facts about any given activity before you embark on it.

You fitted new tyres then crashed - so did I. the difference is I am not trying to blame anyone else - I screwed up - I payed to fix the damage and I added to my growing pool of experience.

 

 

Andy

 

[GregB]

Let's not forget that car tires ARE slippery also. The primary difference is that a car tire is flat and so all of the contact patch is getting "broken-in" by the road as soon as you start to move. A motorcycle tire is not using the edges until you start leaning it.

So the area of a tire is slightly slick until you use it a bit. The edges of the tire don't get used until you lean the bike. So you gradually use more and more angle so that you use virgin areas of the tire a small amount at a time.

Let's not forget that old tires are slicker than new, cold tires or very overheated ones are slicker than warm ones, and air pressure affects traction, etc. etc.

What's next, warning labels telling people that the painted signs on streets are slicker than asphalt? Perhaps every wet leaf should come with its own warning label. Guess we better get those genetic engineers busy developing trees that grow leaves with warning lables that require you to sign off on each one befoe you can ride past.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Suppose BMW made a front fork that arbitrarily failed at random intervals. Is that a risk that is something I should take responsibility for? No I assume that if BMW knows about this risk, they will fix it.

 

Random failures of critical components are indeed bad. They will happen from time to time, but as long as it's made to happen with only extreme rarity, that's all you can do. Example: a U-joint on the driveshaft in Eebie's RT disintegrated, rattling driveshaft nearly shattered the swingarm into two pieces. If this happened to 5 percent of RT's, you could imagine the NHTSA forcing BMW to step up and retrofit all RT's. But I've only heard (I think) of one other case.

 

Then why should a tire manufacturer ship a tire that is known to be slippery for 100 miles?

 

Because it's widely understood that new motorcycle tires are slippery for at first, and it's easier to just put out a warning. If a hazard is well-understood, you can either try to eliminate it, or develop an easier/cheaper workaround, like warning people to be gentle for the first XX miles. Virtually every motorcycle tire manufacturer has adopted the latter approach.

 

• Michelin suggests caution for only the first 30 miles.
  
• Bridgestone says be careful for 100 miles.
  
• Avon says 100 miles.
  
• Metzeler says 100-150 miles.

 

Having been aware of the hazard since I started riding, I've never looked - but I suspect that the paper labels affixed to new tires probably contain those same warnings. (Anyone have a set of new tires lying around with labels they can check for this?????) If your dealer took the labels off, he probably ought to have delivered the warning verbally; many years ago the dealer changed my tires a couple of times, and I did in fact receive this verbal warning to take it easy for a few miles.

 

Is there any reason why they can't spin that tire at the end of the manufacturing process and completely remove the form release or whatever is making it slippery?

 

Cuz it costs money. You need a machine to spin the tires, floor space in the factory to devote to it, power to run it, and a worker to operate it. If your competitor is beating you on price, the last thing you (as a tire manufacturer) want is a more expensive manufacturing process.

 

Can you imagine if the first time you put on a new set of tires on your passenger vehicle, you have to drive in a straight line for 100 miles to avoid spinning out?

 

Car tires are probably slippery when new too. It's just that the whole tread surface scuffs in very quickly, like maybe within a half a mile (since the entire width of it is in contact with the road at all times), and it's impossible for the car to low-side during minor tire slippage.

[RPG]

100 miles of scrubbing in no matter what "the word on the street is". Have a new set of Smart's on my RT think they're phenomenal.

 

I didn't start pushing them until I got around 200 miles on them.

 

 

Sorry for your mishap but think you should have waited a bit to start diving into turns.

 

RPG

[Perlova]

Random failures of critical components are indeed bad. They will happen from time to time, but as long as it's made to happen with only extreme rarity, that's all you can do.

Exactly....Random failures are bad and are hard to avoid. However, every single tire coming off the assembly line is a risk? That's hardly random.

This is a known problem, that can easily be rectified by the manufacturing process.

 

Cuz it costs money. You need a machine to spin the tires, floor space in the factory to devote to it, power to run it, and a worker to operate it. If your competitor is beating you on price, the last thing you (as a tire manufacturer) want is a more expensive manufacturing process.

Too expensive of a problem to fix? That is a sad commentary on the emphasis placed on safety by these manufacturers.

 

If someone has not already been killed as a result of this, then it's only time before someone is.

I'm not advocating that we not take responsibility for our own actions, but if risk can be mitigated, should it not be?

 

[Tony_K]

Thie one is done.

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Well, Tony has nicely summmed up the state of affairs here, but I'll continue to play along...

 

This is a known problem, that can easily be rectified by the manufacturing process.

 

It can also be easily (and better yet, cheaply) rectified by telling riders to take it easy for the first 100 miles. Not clear why you have a problem with this approach.

 

Cuz it costs money.

Too expensive of a problem to fix? That is a sad commentary on the emphasis placed on safety by these manufacturers.

...

but if risk can be mitigated, should it not be?

 

It is mitigated...

 

 

 

 

...by telling rider to take it easy for the first 100 miles.

 

****EDIT****

I will note that Mr. Frank and Boffin have both indicated that new tires do, in fact, come with such a warning affixed to them - and that this was a feature you yourself were advocating earlier in this thread. What happened between then and now to change your mind?

[tallman]

If only those darn paint manufacturers would ship the paint already dried.

 

David/Russell,

Street/Sport Touring tires are subjected to tremendous acceleration and deceleration forces plus heat and cool down cycles.

Many more than a track tire is due to the life of the tire.

The heat cycles are not to prevent slipping in an initial ride, they are to complete the process of curing the rubber.

As I said before, the issue of throttle control can cause a bike to slide at any stage of tire wear.

But, when you combine the new tire and throttle poorly, a bad result can occur.

I'm waiting for a response from one of the manufacturers now.

Hope to hear from them by???

I would think that a tire that has 120 miles with 2 heat/cool cycles and no "scrubbing" leaning would perfrom as well in a technical section, or better, than tires that are scrubbed in with a few figure eights and then ridden over the same road.

The complexity of compounds used today is staggering compared to tires of the past and once the curing is finished repeated heat cycles won't change the compound.

But, common sense, under/over inflation can change wear characteristics and handling response.

I'll post when/if I get some answers from the techy's.

[Perlova]

I will note that Mr. Frank and Boffin have both indicated that new tires do, in fact, come with such a warning affixed to them - and that this was a feature you yourself were advocating earlier in this thread. What happened between then and now to change your mind?

What's changed my mind is that after thinking about it, this is an easy to fix problem by the manufacturer. That's called progress.....

 

 

[tomk99r11]

I do not intend to get in the middle of anything here but it appears to me that you like to argue. The responses to the topic I am guessing (debate that if you like) are from experienced riders who have mounted many tires. I am one of those with over 50 yrs riding experience and around 500K miles. Scuffing in a tire is no big deal and really is only common sense IMO.

[SageRider]

What's changed my mind is that after thinking about it, this is an easy to fix problem by the manufacturer

Easy? OK. What's the fix? What is the implementation cost and the per unit cost to perform the fix?

What exactly is the problem being fixed? How is it verified that the problem is fixed?

[russell_bynum]

What's changed my mind is that after thinking about it, this is an easy to fix problem by the manufacturer

Easy? OK. What's the fix? What is the implementation cost and the per unit cost to perform the fix?

What exactly is the problem being fixed? How is it verified that the problem is fixed?

 

Exactly.

 

Most of this thread has been guesses and generalizations based on rumors.

 

I'd really like to get to the bottom of this so we can make intelligent decisions instead.

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Most of this thread has been guesses and generalizations based on rumors.

 

I'd really like to get to the bottom of this so we can make intelligent decisions instead.

 

Well, the practice with a demonstrable track record of success is...

 

...taking it easy for the first XX miles. Actual required distance may vary - my own policy is just to do progressively tighter parking-lot spirals with major counterbalancing for a couple of minutes to scuff in pretty much the entire tread - but the bottom line is that people seem to successfully not crash on new tires when they go easy on the gas/brakes/lean angles at first.

[KingBiscuit]

I put road smarts on my bike about 3K miles ago. Have not had any problems other than the outer portion of the tire seems to be wearing faster then the center. I believe you are supposed to scuff them for at least 100 miles before opening the throttle.

 

Found this on the Dunlop Web site:

 

"Replacements for worn, differently patterned or constructed tires will not react the same. When new tires are fitted, they should not be subjected to maximum power, abrupt lean-over or hard cornering until a reasonable run-in distance of approximately 100 miles has been covered. This will permit the rider to become accustomed to the feel of the new tires or tire combination, find the edge, and achieve optimum road grip for a range of speeds, acceleration and handling use. Check and adjust inflation pressure to recommended levels after tire cools for at least three (3) hours following run-in. Remember, new tires will have a very different contact patch and lean-over edge. New tires, mixing a new tire with a worn older tire, and mixing different pattern combinations require careful ride evaluation."

 

http://www.dunlopmotorcycle.com/infocenter_tiretips.asp?id=12#tip

 

 

Dan

[Perlova]

Well Gentlemen:

 

You've all beat me into submission. I bow to your collective wisdom.

 

Caveat Emptor.

[russell_bynum]

Most of this thread has been guesses and generalizations based on rumors.

 

I'd really like to get to the bottom of this so we can make intelligent decisions instead.

 

Well, the practice with a demonstrable track record of success is...

 

...taking it easy for the first XX miles. Actual required distance may vary - my own policy is just to do progressively tighter parking-lot spirals with major counterbalancing for a couple of minutes to scuff in pretty much the entire tread - but the bottom line is that people seem to successfully not crash on new tires when they go easy on the gas/brakes/lean angles at first.

 

That's certainly been my experience. At the track, taking 2 laps or so to come up to speed, that basically means I'm gradually working up to max lean over the course of ~25-30 turns. After that, I'm at full speed.

 

On the street, I generally take a while to get up to speed in the twisties. Add to that a few turns between home and the twisties and that probably works out about the same.

 

So....cases like what happened to the OP and to Richard...what happened? Hamfisted overexuberance? Something else on the tire (goo from mounting? Stuff on the road?) ??

 

And what about Tim's talk about putting a couple of heat cycles into the tire? Does that have any purpose and if so...what?

[Boffin]

Most of this thread has been guesses and generalizations based on rumors.

 

I'd really like to get to the bottom of this so we can make intelligent decisions instead.

 

Well, the practice with a demonstrable track record of success is...

 

...taking it easy for the first XX miles. Actual required distance may vary - my own policy is just to do progressively tighter parking-lot spirals with major counterbalancing for a couple of minutes to scuff in pretty much the entire tread - but the bottom line is that people seem to successfully not crash on new tires when they go easy on the gas/brakes/lean angles at first.

 

That's certainly been my experience. At the track, taking 2 laps or so to come up to speed, that basically means I'm gradually working up to max lean over the course of ~25-30 turns. After that, I'm at full speed.

 

On the street, I generally take a while to get up to speed in the twisties. Add to that a few turns between home and the twisties and that probably works out about the same.

 

So....cases like what happened to the OP and to Richard...what happened? Hamfisted overexuberance? Something else on the tire (goo from mounting? Stuff on the road?) ??

 

And what about Tim's talk about putting a couple of heat cycles into the tire? Does that have any purpose and if so...what?

 

When I dumped my bike leaving the dealer's lot it was due to 'brisk' but not hard acceleration, coupled with a bit of lean. There is a railway bridge about 150 yards up from the dealer and cars can appear quickly so I tend not to take to much time to get up to speed. Total distance travelled on the new tyres was about 30 yards.

 

Failure mechanism was rear-wheel spin but with a much more aggressive loss of traction than I have experienced with normal spinning up of the rear - no time to weight the outer peg and shift weight to control the slide - not even time to close the throttle.

 

The salesman picked my bike up like a feather, whilst a customer checked me. One broken riders footrest, a bent EMP bracket, a scratched clutch lever and a scrached valve-cover. The bags were at home, packed ready for the tour we were about to set out on. Dealer swapped the footrest for one off of a bike on the floor, bent the EMP bracket back into shape and sent me on the way.

 

Andy

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

So....cases like what happened to the OP and to Richard...what happened? Hamfisted overexuberance? Something else on the tire (goo from mounting? Stuff on the road?) ??

 

Hamfisted overexuberance:

In the strictest sense, yes, the traction demand exceeded the traction capability of the tires. You would say the same of someone who slid (or couldn't stop in time) on a snowy road: driving too fast/hard for given conditions.

 

Something on tire/road:

Maybe they don't slather on mold-release agent like they used to, but I'm sure they still use some. And a sloppy tech may be spraying tire lube all over the place, including the tread surface (one more reason to change your own tires!). May or may not be stuff on road also, but these slide-outs seem to happen so often on brand-new bikes (or bikes with brand-new tires) that it would be a huge coincidence; it's got to be the tires.

 

And what about Tim's talk about putting a couple of heat cycles into the tire? Does that have any purpose and if so...what?

 

Tim has referred to some studies, but the mfrs have said absolutely nothing on their websites, or on their tire labels, about heat cycling. 100 miles of straightline cruise through Death Valley in late July at 70 MPH would certainly heat up the tires nicely; 50 km of puttering along at a mere 40 MPH outside of Fargo in March probably wouldn't. Yet the mfrs don't mention any of these details (ambient temp, speed, type of riding, etc.) that would be critically important for heat-cycling a tire; all they say, essentially, is to put some miles on it. They don't even distinguish between sport, sport-touring, or track/racing tires.

 

Talking about sport-touring tires, I'd venture a WAG that the available traction goes something like this:

 

twisty-hot tire, 100%

room-temperature tire, 85-90%

cold (~40F) tire, 70-75%

brand-new tire, 60%

 

within a couple of blocks of straightline riding on a new tire, the center of the tread is clean, and at that point you could reasonably expect straightline acceleration/braking performance of a room-temp tire. The edges of the tread, of course, would still be greasy.

[BeniciaRT_GT]

Well Gentlemen:

 

You've all beat me into submission. I bow to your collective wisdom.

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

Yea, they showed you just how wrong and ignorant you are didn't they?

 

I mean the whole point of the post was that ties are slippery when new, wasn't it? A question and warning to others...

 

And after all the beating and flogging I think everyone admits they are, but only an idiot and crappy rider would go down on them. You should pay attention at all times and if you get caught unawares, it was your fault.

 

I mean you get this:

 

Tim, new tires are certainly slippery. There's no doubting that.

 

Now that wasn't so hard was it?

 

But that isn't the issue anymore. How does it become a thread on what the label should say, what the manufacturer should do, or how bad the rider is.

 

Does anyone think that for just a second, that the tires do have most of the mold release cleaned off.

 

I will not submit to the few, and will again try to make them realize that there are things called "quality escapes" (oos, mistakes, etc.) from any process and that I've got a lot of miles, including more than pretty much all the ones who are making the most noise, with a lot of new tires along the way. I've had almost ALL of them be a little more slippery than after "run in" but not like the one set I had in the spring.

 

I attribute that to a rear that was way more slippery than a "normal" slippery new tire. I think that is what happened in several others' cases.

 

I never saw anyone saying they wanted to sue, just rhetoric from others about our sue happy society.

 

Scuffing in a tire is no big deal and really is only common sense IMO.

 

Tom, please keep in mind that "common sense" said the world was flat once.

 

This is a place for everyone to learn and share experiences, both good and bad. It is also for and amazingly wide audience, from someone who is not even a bike owner yet, to folks with a million miles.

 

I guess I should just let it go, but when someone asks a question, without attacking anyone, and then gets attacked it makes the board look very bad to the folks who are just watching and learning.

 

I don't know if you're addressing me or Ed, but I really don't want this thread to get personal. That seems like a waste of energy.

 

David, my rant wasn't directed solely at you, but at just 3 or 4 folks who refuse to have enough respect for others experiences to do no more than completely discount them and ignore them.

 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

And after all the beating and flogging I think everyone admits they are, but only an idiot and crappy rider would go down on them. You should pay attention at all times and if you get caught unawares, it was your fault.

By agreeing (in my previous post) with Russell's "hamfisted overexuberance" suggestion, I did not mean to imply that only bad riders will go down on new tires, and I'm sorry if that's how it came across. It doesn't take a knee-dragging throttle-blipper to drop a bike with new tires. As you discovered, it's damn easy if you're not on the ball.

 

 

But that isn't the issue anymore. How does it become a thread on what the label should say, what the manufacturer should do, or how bad the rider is.

You'll have to ask the OP. He was the one who was in favor of a warning label on new tires - and then, upon discovering that new tires are in fact so-labeled, he suggested that tires could be easily and cheaply cleaned/scuffed in by the manufacturer before ever hitting the road.

 

 

Does anyone think that for just a second, that the tires do have most of the mold release cleaned off.

I don't believe anyone has suggested that any release agent gets removed from the tires after the molding process.

 

 

I will not submit to the few, and will again try to make them realize that there are things called "quality escapes" (oos, mistakes, etc.) from any process and that I've got a lot of miles, including more than pretty much all the ones who are making the most noise, with a lot of new tires along the way. I've had almost ALL of them be a little more slippery than after "run in" but not like the one set I had in the spring.

I attribute that to a rear that was way more slippery than a "normal" slippery new tire. I think that is what happened in several others' cases.

Maybe that's the one the warning label was talking about.

 

OTOH, I noticed from your thread this spring that you usually clean and sandpaper your new tires prior to the first ride, but forgot on that particular occasion. If that's your standard procedure, then it makes sense that you would have expected more traction than a greasy-new tire could give.

 

You spoke there of adding throttle to offset a lean. With new tires, I really don't do any leaning (and certainly no accelerating while leaned) until I've gone a couple of blocks. For me, it's gently straight down the driveway, friction-zone the clutch at just a few MPH until I've got the bike pointed straight down the street, then gently ride off. Gentle wobbles until I get out of the neighborhood, then find a parking lot and do the spiral drill.

 

 

I never saw anyone saying they wanted to sue, just rhetoric from others about our sue happy society.

Agreed, no one indicated interest in a lawsuit - but it was suggested by the OP that the manufacturer was not doing enough to make the product safe, and that they had a responsibility to do more than simply affixing a warning label.

 

 

Scuffing in a tire is no big deal and really is only common sense IMO.

Tom, please keep in mind that "common sense" said the world was flat once.

Agreed. Someone new to motorcycling and without experience in a molding industry will have no awareness of why a new tire might be slippery. That's why warning labels are affixed to new tires. If a dealer removes these labels when installing new tires for a customer, I believe the dealer is/should be obligated to verbally communicate that warning to the customer.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

David, my rant wasn't directed solely at you, but at just 3 or 4 folks who refuse to have enough respect for others experiences to do no more than completely discount them and ignore them.

 

You're taking things way too personally.

 

Enough people have crashed doing "normal" things on new tires that it is impossible to ignore that SOMETHING is up.

 

I'd just like to understand WHAT the deal is and what we can do about it. i.e. Was your tire a "Friday" tire where they just slathered the mold release (or preservative, or whatever) on way more than on a normal tire? Were you just used to more traction since you normally clean and scuff your tires manually? If that's the case, then just how much less traction was available, and could that be overcome by being more cautious and gentle those first few miles?

 

I'm interested in understanding what's actually going on here. In your post, you indicated that you crashed because you didn't scuff and clean the tire before a ride like you normally do. But...I don't clean and scuff my new tires and I've never had the problem. So...have I just been really lucky, were you really unlucky, or is there something else to this?

 

I'm just after the facts and there's precious little facts in these "new tires are slippery" discussions.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

A little speculation.

 

Mold release or excessive mounting lube may not just be on the surface of the tire but also might collect in the grooves of the tread. It certainly will be there in the case of the mold release.

 

Now picture this scenario, new tires are mounted, either at the dealer or at home. The bike is rolled out of the service area and sits there while the owner either shows up to pick up the bike or finishes paying for the job or, if a home job, loads the bike for the run to come. Rarely will the bike be ridden instantly after the valve stem caps go on. This gives a bit of time for some goo to migrate outside the tread grooves and onto the surface of the tire. Add maybe a little sun heating to thin the release compound and you could have half the circumference of the tire newly coated with the stuff. Even if the technician wiped the tire off after removing it from the balance device.

 

I probably have been lucky and I certainly hope never to experience this. I do take it pretty gingerly very early in a tire's life, particularly with the throttle.

[philbytx]

Here a link to the Metzeler break in period information (number 14).

 

And this from Conti's Tire manual :

QUOTE

■ Breaking-in

New tyres have a smooth surface after the

production process, which gets abraded only

through the moderate breaking-in of the tyres.

Sudden braking and acceleration, and hard

cornering should be avoided until the breakingin

process has been completed. Only after the

surface of the tyre is sufficiently abraded is the

tyre able to build up its maximum grip level. The

tyre’s size/information sticker should be removed

before the first ride.

Every tyre needs a certain operating temperature

to ensure its optimal grip performance. To ensure

this, tyres should be warmed up by riding at a

moderate speed at the start of each ride.

UNQUOTE

 

Also, here is another link to Metzelers website where they mention using higher pressures in THEIR tires. Goes along with what some of us have been doing with the Metzelers on our RT's.

 

[David]

That (and earlier posts) confirms what I was saying: it's about scuffing, not heat cycles.

[philbytx]

But this one is.....from Metzeler

QUOTE

14. How long is the run in period for motorcycle tires?

In order for the new tires to provide optimum performance, all new tires must be ridden very cautiously for the first 100-200 kms.

Immediately after new tires are mounted, sudden acceleration, heavy breaking, and hard cornering must be avoided until the 100-200 kms run in period is completed.

UNQUOTE

 

Some Mfrs actually specify distances with others just simple prudence when new. I spose the wording is really dependent upon the anality of their lawyers

[philbytx]

Yup! It's all about scuffing...as far as most of their wording goes - note the wording "optimum performance". Maybe it's just because they don't want to get too technical about the subject and throw the whole heat cycling and molecular changes stuff into the mix !

 

Obviously they aren't aware of the anality and pickyness of the folks on this board

 

And I proudly count myself as one of them :grin:

[SK_in_AB]

I just put roadsmarts on - they were the 1st new bike tires I've ever bought. My dealer walked me through the slippery tire spiel, and had me sign a form saying I understood that a 100km breakin including gentle corners (to scrub the sidewalls) was needed. I thought the form was CYA overkill for legal reasons but I appreciated the briefing. I was not aware of the issue and could have ended up sliding - not a nice outcome

 

I hope others reading this thread take notice of the issue. It should be up to the retailer to ensure his customers are well informed as to a common but perhaps not commonly known risk

[russell_bynum]

That (and earlier posts) confirms what I was saying: it's about scuffing, not heat cycles.

 

That would certainly match my experience. And it would agree with my feeling that it doesn't matter if you've got 1 mile on the tires or 1,000...the issue is about scuffing. So...with gentle throttle and gradually increasing lean angle, I get to the edge of my tires (on the track) within a couple of laps (~3 miles). On the street, I start out easy on the gas and easy on the lean until my tires and my brain have warmed up. By the time that's done, my tires have been gradually scuffed out as far as they need to go (not to the edges since I don't lean the bike that far on the street).

 

 

And it would explain Richard's crash from the spring...he normally scuffs his tires manually but this time he didn't. It suggests that his riding style/habits ask for more traction than a brand new (unscuffed) tire has to offer. Using Mitch's WAG numbers, maybe Richard's typical departure from the driveway asks for 75% of the tire's maximum. When the tire is scuffed, but cold, that's fine. When it is cold and unscuffed, with only 60% of max traction to work with, it's too much and he went down. He either needed to adjust his riding style so that he didn't ask as much from his tires right away, or he needed to scuff the tires manually like he usually does.

 

 

So...that takes me back to my earlier question (which Mitch took a WAG at, but I'd love to see real data)...just exactly how much less traction is there on an average unscuffed tire vs one that has been scuffed? How does the tire's temperature affect things? (I know that's vastly different for street tires vs. sport tires vs. race tires.) And then back to Tim's statement about heat cycles (which he doesn't claim are necessary to prevent the OP and Richard's crash, but are somehow necessary to complete the curing of the rubber)...what's that about? (More overall grip potential? If so, how much more?

[tallman]

Here a link to the Metzeler break in period information (number 14).

 

And this from Conti's Tire manual :

QUOTE

■ Breaking-in

New tyres have a smooth surface after the

production process, which gets abraded only

through the moderate breaking-in of the tyres.

Sudden braking and acceleration, and hard

cornering should be avoided until the breakingin

process has been completed. Only after the

surface of the tyre is sufficiently abraded is the

tyre able to build up its maximum grip level. The

tyre’s size/information sticker should be removed

before the first ride.

Every tyre needs a certain operating temperature

to ensure its optimal grip performance. To ensure

this, tyres should be warmed up by riding at a

moderate speed at the start of each ride.

UNQUOTE

 

Also, here is another link to Metzelers website where they mention using higher pressures in THEIR tires. Goes along with what some of us have been doing with the Metzelers on our RT's.

 

That's funny, I read this to say heating the tire, and then checking tire pressure after cooling off to mean the heat cycles are important to achieve "optimal grip performance".

[David]

That's not at all what it says. A heat cycle is composed of two parts: an up and a down. This is talking about an up.

[StuGotz]

I'll jump in here, for what its worth. ( Which may be nothing at all)

 

I've got lots of miles on tires and bikes...I leave it to others to argue who has more, or who has the most experience, who's been on track, and who hasn't.

 

But what I will tell you, is that Ed hits the nail on the head again.

 

My bad experiences with tires were always with slick residues. I ALWAYS wash the tires with mild detergent after mounting. I use a green scuffer pad on the tread area rubber. And the last set I installed on the KRS were Roadsmarts......love 'em.

 

And yes, take it easy the first few miles.

 

MB>