Jump to content
IGNORED

New RoadSmarts = Dropped Bike


Perlova

Recommended Posts

At the start of each ride would imply a time that the tire cooled down.

I've searched our archives and one thread on this won't display (gone?)

and I haven't found my links yet.

 

This quote is from one of our posters who apparently used to think,

"They do want to be heat cycled a bit before they will return maximum traction. I good 20 mile ride on even a straight road will suffice."

No name to protect the innocent. :grin:

 

 

Link to comment

"Heavy swerving in gravel" and "smart" in the same sentence !

 

Ahh - my RT must be different - It has no concept of anything resembling control in gravel !!

Link to comment
russell_bynum
That's not at all what it says. A heat cycle is composed of two parts: an up and a down. This is talking about an up.

 

I agree. They say the new tires need to be abraided (scuffed).

 

Then they say you need to get the tires UP to operating temperature at the start of EACH ride in order to get maximum grip (on that ride).

 

That says nothing at all about heat cycles. It just says the tires have to warm up before you get grip.

Link to comment
russell_bynum
Cant we all just get along?

 

We're getting along fine, thanks.

 

Richard may give me a wedgie next time we see each other...but he was probably going to do that just as a matter of practice anyway. :grin:

Link to comment

Wow sorry I missed all the fun....

 

So most folks (and apparently more than a few manufacturers) have the idea that new tires are slick and ride as such and a few think they are good to go out of the box and ride as such....simple really.

 

I will stick with the 100 mile rule; I don't have enough patience for the 10,000 miles some have suggested....

 

Link to comment
russell_bynum
Wow sorry I missed all the fun....

 

So most folks (and apparently more than a few manufacturers) have the idea that new tires are slick and ride as such and a few think they are good to go out of the box and ride as such....simple really.

 

I will stick with the 100 mile rule; I don't have enough patience for the 10,000 miles some have suggested....

 

If the issue is scuffing the tires to the edge, then you can ride as far as you want and it isn't going to help unless you're gradually increasing lean angle.

 

If you're gradually increasing lean angle, then you can be good to go in very few miles.

 

 

Link to comment

If the issue is scuffing the tires to the edge, then you can ride as far as you want and it isn't going to help unless you're gradually increasing lean angle.

 

If you're gradually increasing lean angle, then you can be good to go in very few miles.

 

That is exactly how I do it....minimize lean for first few miles and then gradually increase it....do I need all 100? Probably not but what do I stand to gain by pushing it?

Link to comment
That's not at all what it says. A heat cycle is composed of two parts: an up and a down. This is talking about an up.

 

I agree. They say the new tires need to be abraided (scuffed).

 

Then they say you need to get the tires UP to operating temperature at the start of EACH ride in order to get maximum grip (on that ride).

 

That says nothing at all about heat cycles. It just says the tires have to warm up before you get grip.

 

Has anybody every wondered why racers use tire warmers? :grin:

 

Your ride, sometimes you fall down, your learn, your ride some more. Next.

Link to comment
russell_bynum

If the issue is scuffing the tires to the edge, then you can ride as far as you want and it isn't going to help unless you're gradually increasing lean angle.

 

If you're gradually increasing lean angle, then you can be good to go in very few miles.

 

That is exactly how I do it....minimize lean for first few miles and then gradually increase it....do I need all 100? Probably not but what do I stand to gain by pushing it?

 

Nothing at all.

 

But there's "here's the problem and here's how to prevent it or deal with it", and there's "here's the religious ritual that I do that seems to have worked so far." :grin:

 

If, for example, you told me I had to put 100 miles on my track tires before I got decent traction out of them, I'd have to find someone with a bigass empty parking lot and spend an entire Saturday riding back and forth across the parking lot to get to that 100 mile mark. I don't have that luxury....I want to know what the problem is and what I need to do to deal with it. It seems that "what I need to do to deal with it" is "go easy on the throttle, brakes and lean angle until the tire is scuffed to the edge."

 

I can work with that. At the track, that means about 2 laps unless it's really cold out.

 

Likewise on the street...my normal fun twisty "get away for a few hours on a Sunday afternoon" ride is only 150 miles total and the fun starts 8 miles of freeway from my door. I just take it easy and gradually increase lean/brake/throttle until I get to whatever pace I want to be riding.

 

You can do whatever you want...if you understand what you need to do (and why) and you decide to do more just because it makes you feel good...that's totally fine.

 

As long as people understand that it's getting the tires scuffed out to their max lean angle (not necessarily the edge of the tire since most of us don't ever lean that far on the street) that's what is needed, then there's no issue. If people read this and think "Well...I'll just make sure I go 100 miles before I really push it." and they don't gradually work up to their lean angle in that 100 miles, then they're going to be badly surprised when, at mile 101 they pitch the bike into a corner expecting it to stick...and it doesn't.

Link to comment

Well Gentlemen:

 

You've all beat me into submission. I bow to your collective wisdom.

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

X2.....the smart guys win again....the idea that someone would go do 100 mile in a straight line and then dive into a corner at mile 101 is so absurd all I can say is bravo, you win.....

 

 

Link to comment
russell_bynum
Well Gentlemen:

 

You've all beat me into submission. I bow to your collective wisdom.

 

Caveat Emptor.

 

X2.....the smart guys win again....the idea that someone would go do 100 mile in a straight line and then dive into a corner at mile 101 is so absurd all I can say is bravo, you win.....

 

 

I'm not trying to "win", I'm trying to understand the problem and how to fix it.

 

I'd like to not crash my bike due to slippery new tires. If I've just been lucky so far, I'd like to know that. If I haven't crashed so far because my strategy and my understanding of the problem are sound, then I want to know that, too.

 

As to the last bit...when I was a newbie I got a new set of MEZ4's and then set out to Death Valley. My first real turn was ~150 miles later on S2 (The Glass Elevator). The dealership guys had warned me to "take it easy for the first few miles"...which I did. I'd been a whole bunch of miles since then, so I wasn't even thinking about it. When I tipped the bike in, the front pushed. Luckily (probably because there was already heat in the tire AND the center section was already scuffed from the last 150 miles) it caught again and I didn't go down.

 

That was very nearly a serious situation and it was caused by me not understanding the problem. I was told "take it easy for the first few miles"...I did that. Nobody said anything about scuffing the tires and since I was new to riding, I didn't know better.

Link to comment
New tyres do come with a warning on the label, but nothing substitutes for experience - especially the sliding down the road on yer backside type of experience.

 

I like how they managed both to spell it correctly, but also to misspell it in the same way you did.

 

399855396_qvuvX-X2.jpg

Link to comment
Wow sorry I missed all the fun....

 

So most folks (and apparently more than a few manufacturers) have the idea that new tires are slick and ride as such and a few think they are good to go out of the box and ride as such....simple really.

 

I will stick with the 100 mile rule; I don't have enough patience for the 10,000 miles some have suggested....

 

If the issue is scuffing the tires to the edge, then you can ride as far as you want and it isn't going to help unless you're gradually increasing lean angle.

 

If you're gradually increasing lean angle, then you can be good to go in very few miles.

 

 

Russell,

I will eventually find the links I've posted several times before.

"Scuffing" was part of the test they did.

I've posted that data too.'To the best of my recollection, they used a mechanical device to simulate scuffing.

The result, well, I'll post that with all of it, again, when I find it.

Perhaps someone will have better luck w/Search as I can find previous threads, but not the ones I linked in.

I think it was March, 2006 MCN issue, "how to Condition a Tire" (but this is conjecture at this point).

If it is "scuffing", how much is enough?

And, if it is, why do racers fall down?

And, why don't riders w/big chicken strips fall down when they finally scrape a peg?

And, yes, 100 miles in a straight line w/a cycle period, will allow you to corner aggressively.

Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday
...the idea that someone would go do 100 mile in a straight line and then dive into a corner at mile 101 is so absurd...

 

I gather you've never been to North Dakota.

 

Moreover, if you've got a brand new rider who has no idea what the deal is with new tires, and you simply tell him "go 100 miles before you take any hard corners," well, that might be a reasonably expected outcome, as Russell demonstrated.

 

Verbal communication is imperfect; that imperfection is enhanced by people who won't/can't take the time to express themselves as accurately as possible. When people do what they're [imperfectly] told, without understanding why they're doing it, the result is a wide variation in how it's done - and not everyone will get it done "right."

 

Doing something "right" means doing it in a way that accomplishes the primary objective, i.e. why the thing is being done. Communicating that objective (along with a suggested method) is likely to deliver better results than just trying to communicate a method. I run into this at Tech Daze events with oilhead valve adjustments. People want to know how closely they have to match valve clearances - left head with right head, and how much friction there should be on the feeler gauge. Instead of telling them "this closely" and "this much," I tell them:

 

A) their first goal is to get the engine running smoothly and surge-free; match left to right as closely as is needed to meet that objective. Adjust the valves, sync the throttles, take a ride and see what you think.

 

B) their second goal is to ensure enough valve clearance so that a valve never gets held open. You could adjust the intakes with a 0.007" feeler gauge instead of 0.006" and everything would be fine (just a bit noisy). OTOH, the 0.006" spec incorporates a bit of safety margin too, so you could even adjust them a smidge tighter than this and be OK. So the exact amount of friction on the 0.006" feeler gauge doesn't matter a whole lot.

 

People ultimately develop their own standards and methods, but when they understand the problem - be it valve adjustment, tire scuff-in, torque wrenches, or hanging off in a turn - they're more likely to achieve the desired outcome.

 

Likewise, just telling someone "take it easy for the first few miles" occasionally results in things like Russell's front wheel slide at the Glass Elevator. Telling someone "you need to gradually scuff in the entire width of the tread to develop full traction before you ride hard" will still result in various ways of getting it done, but at least now everyone is thinking about the objective, so they're more likely to accomplish it. Some will ride 100 miles while going to greater and greater lean angles, some will do spirals in a parking lot for five minutes - but you're not likely to see anyone do 100 straightline miles and then dive into a turn anymore.

 

 

Link to comment

Lots of good information here. The one thing everyone must remember is the term "Slippery" here. Actually the word should be surfaced cured. When a tire casing and tread plies go into the mold at the factory, the rubber components are very soft and uncured. The collection of parts from bead wires to casing plies, tread plies and top compound or tread cap are subjected to pressure and temperature to vulcanize or melt all the pieces together into a tire. Compare it to a loaf of bread. The raw dough goes into the oven. After the baking, there is a hard crust on the surfeace and a softer inner texture. It's all the same dough but the outer surface is subject to the most direct contact with heat. Tires are the same way. There is a harder surface from the direct contact with the molds. Scrubbing in a set of tires will remove this hardened surface. Heat will make rubber more pliable as well. Heat softens rubber. This is why race teams heat tires before the start of a race. The tires will be soft and ready to corner hard at the drop of the green flag. Tires are a science indeed. My suggestion is to scrub in new tires and always warm up your tires on every ride before you think of any hard cornering.

 

Ride safe.

Link to comment

What I know about the problem after reading this thread, several other threads, and the manufacturer web sites:

 

1. It is possible that the tires might be a bit slick or maybe very slick when new, or perhaps they are a bit different than the old tires and I'm just not used to them. In at least a few cases it appears the tires have been very slick.

 

2. It might take some miles, or maybe some heat/cool cycles, or maybe some gradual scrubbing to fix them. Scrubbing may need to involve gradually increasing cornering severity, or might be accomplished mechanically before riding.

 

3. There doesn't seem to be any consensus amongst manufacturers or us as to the cause of the problem or proper procedures to mitigate it.

 

All in all, a very, very sad state of affairs.

 

My opinion, as I stated in Richard's thread before: Manufacturers should ship the tires ready to ride, whatever it takes. Failing that they should provide specific procedures to prep the tire before riding, so that once you are on the street, the tire is 100% of nominal performance. Anything else is a defective product, and warning or no warning is dangerous and wrong. After all, neither Richard or the OP of this thread was riding at what they perceived to be anything near 100% when they dumped. Look at the warning on the RoadSmart label. It warns against "maximum acceleration", "hard cornering", and "sudden braking". Neither of these riders was doing anything even remotely like that when they went down. How, in any event, can you avoid "sudden braking" if a car turns left in front of you? You can't. If the tire isn't up to that, it's defective for the purpose of street riding.

 

This situation that some of you promote or accept, of transfer of the manufacture's responsibility to provide a proper working tire to the rider offends my sensibilities.

 

Jan

Link to comment

Very confused here. A motorcycle is unique when it comes to contact patch for normal operation. A car/cager has a flat tread 100% of the time in contact with the street. A motorcycle has a contact patch about the size of a baseball at any given time and it changes constantly. One turn, you are using the left side of the tire and the next turn you are using the right side of the tire. It is very dymanic and changing. I am not putting blame on the OP or anyone else, but the immediate responsibility for safe operation does fall on the riders shoulders. I have cold tread slid my tires more than once and the fault was mine. New tires will always get a scrub in and warm up for at least 2 or 3 days before I push them. The manufacturers are responsible for defects in materials and workmanship. If this was the cause for going down without any rider negligence, you would have a good case for legal compensation. Lots of variables here.

Link to comment

My opinion, as I stated in Richard's thread before: Manufacturers should ship the tires ready to ride, whatever it takes. Failing that they should provide specific procedures to prep the tire before riding, so that once you are on the street, the tire is 100% of nominal performance. Anything else is a defective product, and warning or no warning is dangerous and wrong. After all, neither Richard or the OP of this thread was riding at what they perceived to be anything near 100% when they dumped. Look at the warning on the RoadSmart label. It warns against "maximum acceleration", "hard cornering", and "sudden braking". Neither of these riders was doing anything even remotely like that when they went down. How, in any event, can you avoid "sudden braking" if a car turns left in front of you? You can't. If the tire isn't up to that, it's defective for the purpose of street riding.

 

This situation that some of you promote or accept, of transfer of the manufacture's responsibility to provide a proper working tire to the rider offends my sensibilities.

 

It would appear that the only way (at the moment) to achieve this is to mount the tyres, scrub/cycle them then demount before selling. Tyres are already dam@@d expensive. I for one do not want to pay out even more because a smal minority of people (myself included) have dumped the bike on new tyres. Whatever the product, the buyer has responsibilities to educate themselves about the product before use. Its called personal responsibility.

 

Andy

Link to comment

 

My opinion, as I stated in Richard's thread before: Manufacturers should ship the tires ready to ride, whatever it takes. Failing that they should provide specific procedures to prep the tire before riding, so that once you are on the street, the tire is 100% of nominal performance. Anything else is a defective product, and warning or no warning is dangerous and wrong. After all, neither Richard or the OP of this thread was riding at what they perceived to be anything near 100% when they dumped. Look at the warning on the RoadSmart label. It warns against "maximum acceleration", "hard cornering", and "sudden braking". Neither of these riders was doing anything even remotely like that when they went down. How, in any event, can you avoid "sudden braking" if a car turns left in front of you? You can't. If the tire isn't up to that, it's defective for the purpose of street riding.

 

This situation that some of you promote or accept, of transfer of the manufacture's responsibility to provide a proper working tire to the rider offends my sensibilities.

 

Jan

 

Thank you for spelling this out so well. This was the point that I was trying to make but could not get across as well as you have.

 

Motorcycle riding is a risky venture and we all should take responsibility for our own safety. However, I have not heard any tire manufacturer say that it is impossible to make a tire that is ready to ride from the time it is mounted. If it is not impossible, then why are they not doing it? With these warning labels, they are admitting that their products are not ready to use as purchased.

 

I started this thread after I dumped my bike not because I want to blame someone else for my misfortune, but because I was shocked that a new tire performed the way that it did. And now I am even more shocked that this is by design.

 

What's even more troubling is that motorcycle riders are just living with this fact and are even making excuses for the tire manufacturers.

Link to comment
My opinion, as I stated in Richard's thread before: Manufacturers should ship the tires ready to ride, whatever it takes. Failing that they should provide specific procedures to prep the tire before riding, so that once you are on the street, the tire is 100% of nominal performance. Anything else is a defective product, and warning or no warning is dangerous and wrong. After all, neither Richard or the OP of this thread was riding at what they perceived to be anything near 100% when they dumped. Look at the warning on the RoadSmart label. It warns against "maximum acceleration", "hard cornering", and "sudden braking". Neither of these riders was doing anything even remotely like that when they went down. How, in any event, can you avoid "sudden braking" if a car turns left in front of you? You can't. If the tire isn't up to that, it's defective for the purpose of street riding.

 

This situation that some of you promote or accept, of transfer of the manufacture's responsibility to provide a proper working tire to the rider offends my sensibilities.

 

It would appear that the only way (at the moment) to achieve this is to mount the tyres, scrub/cycle them then demount before selling. Tyres are already dam@@d expensive. I for one do not want to pay out even more because a smal minority of people (myself included) have dumped the bike on new tyres. Whatever the product, the buyer has responsibilities to educate themselves about the product before use. Its called personal responsibility.

 

Andy

 

Sorry, could not disagree more. As I stated, there is no publicly stated consensus as to the cause of the problem, or it's mitigation by the tire manufacture's, their advice being as all over the map as is our own. Therefore the statement,

 

It would appear that the only way (at the moment) to achieve this is to mount the tyres, scrub/cycle them then demount before selling.

 

Is not supported by the facts. We have no idea what it would take to solve the problem. What if one euro per tire would fix the matter? How would you feel then? Given that you feel the need to pull out of a dealer lot that has limited visibility and requires at least a somewhat fast start, wouldn't you agree there is some value to a tire that is ready to go from the moment you ride on it? A simple 10 mile per hour rear wheel slide out cost my insurer $8000 on an '07 RT, so don't forget to look at both sides of the costs.

 

the buyer has responsibilities to educate themselves about the product before use. Its called personal responsibility.

 

Agreed, to a point. But with the apparent degradation from nominal performance being all over the map: Most experienced riders have never experienced anything they'd call a problem, others have tires slick as snot and not ready for even normal riding. Manufacture's advice being all over the map as well, causes being unsure, etc. I'm not sure what a rider can do to take that responsibility.

 

 

Link to comment
DaveTheAffable

Somewhere, in the warehouse of a tire distributor, the following event unfolds. It doesn't matter if it's a dealer, manufacturer, internet source, or retail outlet.

 

Boss - "Hey Charlie!, don't put that tire (insert here: on the shelf, in the box, on the bike) looking like that! Wipe the (dust / cobwebs / coffee stain) off of it first!

 

Charlie - "Oh... sorry boss." (Where upon Charlie grabs a shop towel that has tire cleaner, armour all, pledge, or something that makes the tire look all clean and fresh, and wipes it down thouroughly! Good job, Charlie.)

 

...and the manufacturer of the tire in the above scenario has nothing to do with it.

 

When it comes to riding safely, many on the board teach, "Presume that they will turn left in front of you. Presume that they will pull out in front of you. Presume they don't see you."

 

So, should people who take an extra abundance of caution with their new tires be looked at as odd, or overly cautious?

 

The internet is FULL of cases of riders falling after new tires were put on. Do a Google on "New Tires Motorcycle Scrub" and there are a bunch of hits. We (the motorcycling community) need to educate our friends, encourage tire installers to be more agressive in their warnings, and PRESUME that even if the manufacturer didn't leave mold release or something on it, that maybe some poor unknowing guy named Charlie put something slippery on your tires before you got them.

 

At a minimum, how about wiping tires down with detergent, and driving "carefully" for the first 50 - 100 miles?

Link to comment

Nah, winning an argument by posting a lot about how your experience is different and must be the correct one and how you ride with your knee down just after they come off the balancer is way more helpful.

 

And clearly whatever warning you tried to develop would be picked apart by the lawyers in training around here anyway. Better to just keep it to yourself lest your chosen method be criticized and all kind of scenarios that "could happen" are posted immediately....all those other riders were squids anyway....

 

Or you could rely on the good folks at SouthWest Moto Tires, not that any of us get our tires there....

 

Tire Run-In

 

New motorcycle tires require a "run-in" or "scuff" period to break in. New tires should not be subjected to maximum power, abrupt lean-over or hard cornering until a reasonable "run-in" distance of at least 100 miles has been covered.

 

http://swmototires.com/technical.htm

 

 

Sound familiar?

 

Link to comment

I contacted Dunlop as a result of my dropped bike incident and here was their bottom line answers.

 

I am not sure how to go about un-confusing you.

 

We are talking about two different things here, the first that you brought up in your original e-mail.

 

1) There are no release agents used in the production of a motorcycle tire. (at least at our facilities, I can't speak for any other companies) The tire did not slip out from under you due to a release agent or anything slippery that we put on the tire.

 

2) I still believe that my original assumption is correct. The tire was cold and did not generate the traction you required. Again the is typical of ALL tires, they do not generate maximum traction until warmed up to a normal operating temperature. This normally occurs within a few miles of riding.

 

3) The recommendation that riders take it easy for a few hundred miles on new tires is simply to allow the rider to get used to the "FEEL" of the new tires as they will handle considerably differently than the tires they just removed. Again, you will find that generally all motorcycle tire manufacturers offer similar suggestions.

 

I hope that helps answer all of your questions."

 

The representative from Dunlop is implying that the tires did not slip because they were new. They slipped because their handling characteristics were different from my old worn out Metzlers and I had not yet adapted to them.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
I contacted Dunlop as a result of my dropped bike incident and here was their bottom line answers.

 

I am not sure how to go about un-confusing you.

 

We are talking about two different things here, the first that you brought up in your original e-mail.

 

1) There are no release agents used in the production of a motorcycle tire. (at least at our facilities, I can't speak for any other companies) The tire did not slip out from under you due to a release agent or anything slippery that we put on the tire.

 

2) I still believe that my original assumption is correct. The tire was cold and did not generate the traction you required. Again the is typical of ALL tires, they do not generate maximum traction until warmed up to a normal operating temperature. This normally occurs within a few miles of riding.

 

3) The recommendation that riders take it easy for a few hundred miles on new tires is simply to allow the rider to get used to the "FEEL" of the new tires as they will handle considerably differently than the tires they just removed. Again, you will find that generally all motorcycle tire manufacturers offer similar suggestions.

 

I hope that helps answer all of your questions."

 

The representative from Dunlop is implying that the tires did not slip because they were new. They slipped because their handling characteristics were different from my old worn out Metzlers and I had not yet adapted to them.

 

 

 

 

Which is exactly what Dunlop says on their website, and one of the reasons I suggest that there is no consensus on the problem, it's causes, or it's mitigation. At some point though we have to confront the fact that you, and other experienced riders, who of necessity ride on a cold tire every time you start up for the day, have been surprised by unexpected behavior from new tires that doesn't seem to be explained by simply being unused to the feel of the tire, or normal cold tire behavior.

Link to comment

Somewhere, in the warehouse of a tire distributor, the following event unfolds. It doesn't matter if it's a dealer, manufacturer, internet source, or retail outlet.

 

Boss - "Hey Charlie!, don't put that tire (insert here: on the shelf, in the box, on the bike) looking like that! Wipe the (dust / cobwebs / coffee stain) off of it first!

 

Charlie - "Oh... sorry boss." (Where upon Charlie grabs a shop towel that has tire cleaner, armour all, pledge, or something that makes the tire look all clean and fresh, and wipes it down thouroughly! Good job, Charlie.)

 

...and the manufacturer of the tire in the above scenario has nothing to do with it.

 

How does the tire manufacture have nothing to do this? I would think they had everything to do with it.

Link to comment
Joe Frickin' Friday
How does the tire manufacture have nothing to do this? I would think they had everything to do with it.

 

Manufacturer != Distributor.

Link to comment
How does the tire manufacture have nothing to do this? I would think they had everything to do with it.

 

Manufacturer != Distributor.

 

Manufacturer sets the standards, designs the program, establishes the training requirements, selects the distributors, contracts with the distributors, and enforces the above to it's standards. The manufacturer establishes the installation procedures. If the manufacturer thinks a final wash, wire brushing, or sandpapering is appropriate, or a prohibition on using certain materials needs to be in place, it can do so. If it the manufacturer feels that certain procedures are necessary for safety, then it has a duty to audit to enforce such procedures.

 

 

Link to comment
How does the tire manufacture have nothing to do this? I would think they had everything to do with it.

 

Manufacturer != Distributor.

 

Manufacturer sets the standards, designs the program, establishes the training requirements, selects the distributors, contracts with the distributors, and enforces the above to it's standards. The manufacturer establishes the installation procedures. If the manufacturer thinks a final wash, wire brushing, or sandpapering is appropriate, or a prohibition on using certain materials needs to be in place, it can do so. If it the manufacturer feels that certain procedures are necessary for safety, then it has a duty to audit to enforce such procedures.

 

 

I can see why so many UK retailers and manufactureres refuse to sell stuff in the USA.

Link to comment
Nice n Easy Rider
How does the tire manufacture have nothing to do this? I would think they had everything to do with it.

 

Manufacturer != Distributor.

 

Manufacturer sets the standards, designs the program, establishes the training requirements, selects the distributors, contracts with the distributors, and enforces the above to it's standards. The manufacturer establishes the installation procedures. If the manufacturer thinks a final wash, wire brushing, or sandpapering is appropriate, or a prohibition on using certain materials needs to be in place, it can do so. If it the manufacturer feels that certain procedures are necessary for safety, then it has a duty to audit to enforce such procedures.

 

 

I can see why so many UK retailers and manufactureres refuse to sell stuff in the USA.

 

Hey, someone has to keep our attorneys (barristers) supported in the lifestyles they've gotten accustomed to! :/

Link to comment

I can see why so many UK retailers and manufactureres refuse to sell stuff in the USA.

 

Where do you think our products liability laws came from?

Link to comment
My opinion, as I stated in Richard's thread before: Manufacturers should ship the tires ready to ride, whatever it takes. Failing that they should provide specific procedures to prep the tire before riding, so that once you are on the street, the tire is 100% of nominal performance.

 

Any tire mounted on a rim (not even aired up and run on pavement) is considered a used tire. I worked product liability for Bridgestone Tires of America at the national level. This is why tire shops put a plastic fake rim insert in their displays. If it were mounted on a rim, it must be sold as used due to potential mounting and dismounted damage that may have occurred.

Link to comment
russell_bynum
Nah, winning an argument by posting a lot about how your experience is different and must be the correct one and how you ride with your knee down just after they come off the balancer is way more helpful.

 

This sort of pissy reply is a complete waste of everyone's time and not in the spirit of this forum

 

At no point did I ever state that my way "must be the correct one". In fact, I explicitly asked "Have I just been lucky?"

 

I know what I've done and it's worked...but that doesn't mean it's right...it may just mean I've been lucky.

 

That's why I'm participating in this conversation. I want to know what's actually going on and what I need to do to deal with the problem. I want to know the "why" and the "how" so that I can come up with the best course of action.

 

 

And clearly whatever warning you tried to develop would be picked apart by the lawyers in training around here anyway. Better to just keep it to yourself lest your chosen method be criticized and all kind of scenarios that "could happen" are posted immediately

 

Isn't that the flippin' point of this whole forum anyway. It's a DISCUSSION forum, not a "repeat back what you heard somewhere without understanding it" forum.

 

Of course..it could be taken to the point of absurdity, but we're not anywhere near that point yet. We're talking about everyday situations that we all encounter.

 

....all those other riders were squids anyway....

 

Nobody here ever said anything like that.

 

 

Or you could rely on the good folks at SouthWest Moto Tires, not that any of us get our tires there....

 

Tire Run-In

 

New motorcycle tires require a "run-in" or "scuff" period to break in. New tires should not be subjected to maximum power, abrupt lean-over or hard cornering until a reasonable "run-in" distance of at least 100 miles has been covered.

 

http://swmototires.com/technical.htm

 

 

Sound familiar?

 

Yes, that's very familiar. But it doesn't say why we need to do that. And it would suggest that it is pure luck that I haven't crashed on my track tires, which rarely see 100 miles in a day at the track and are pushed WAY harder than I would ever push the exact same tires on the street.

Link to comment

The squid comment was clearly implied as it has been stated on this thread that only someone with lesser throttle control skills has this happen to them....I have been fortunate enough to not go down but have defiantly experienced a slip or two and when riding on new tires….guess I need to work on the old TC...

 

So to recap many manufacturers and dealers say to take it easy on new tires (for whatever reason) and new tires do tend to be slippery (for whatever reason)....but some riders have had other experiences.....

 

Then again maybe everyone on ADV rider is a newbie also.... http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334332

 

 

 

Link to comment
russell_bynum
The squid comment was clearly implied as it has been stated on this thread that only someone with lesser throttle control skills has this happen to them....I have been fortunate enough to not go down but have defiantly experienced a slip or two and when riding on new tires….guess I need to work on the old TC...

 

Well...if you're overcoming the tire's available traction by applying too much throttle, then YES..that's exactly what the problem is. That doesn't mean you're a bad rider or a squid or whatever...just that you need to be more careful with the throttle in the future.

 

 

So to recap many manufacturers and dealers say to take it easy on new tires (for whatever reason) and new tires do tend to be slippery (for whatever reason)....but some riders have had other experiences.....

 

What "other experiences" are you talking about?

 

Has anyone here said you can get max traction out of a brand new tire right away?

 

That's not anything like what I said and it isn't what Ed, David, or anyone else said either.

Link to comment

Russell you clearly have a lot invested in being right about this (and most any issue that ever comes up on this website actually), so the answer is yes, you are right about each and every point you have made in this thread and any misunderstanding was mine alone....clearly new tires are not slippery, and plenty of traction is available (or at least knee down cornering levels) after a few break in turns. Since their is actually no mold release or other slippery stuff on new tires and every reported experience on the numerous threads, websites and manufacturer warnings cited are all in need of further explanation since you are not convinced as to what "caused" the slip but clearly it is rider error related due to cold tires or some other mystery error....

 

But remember this sort of pissy reply is a complete waste of everyone's time and not in the spirit of this forum…..

 

 

 

Link to comment
Russell you clearly have a lot invested in being right about this (and most any issue that ever comes up on this website actually), so the answer is yes, you are right about each and every point you have made in this thread and any misunderstanding was mine alone....clearly new tires are not slippery, and plenty of traction is available (or at least knee down cornering levels) after a few break in turns. Since their is actually no mold release or other slippery stuff on new tires and every reported experience on the numerous threads, websites and manufacturer warnings cited are all in need of further explanation since you are not convinced as to what "caused" the slip but clearly it is rider error related due to cold tires or some other mystery error....

 

But remember this sort of pissy reply is a complete waste of everyone's time and not in the spirit of this forum…..

 

Would it be possible to take this offline via email or pm so that the rest of us can participate in an excellent discussion without the "whose dick is longer" part? This is the sort of response that gets threads locked.

Link to comment

Excellent discussion? Point me to that part....All I have seen is a few people who think they ride farther, faster, on newer tires, more often than everyone else insisting they know best....

Link to comment
Excellent discussion? Point me to that part....All I have seen is a few people who think they ride farther, faster, on newer tires, more often than everyone else insisting they know best....

 

Then maybe just not join the discussion, if it's not helpful?

 

It's been a good discussion in my mind, challenging some of the things I've thought and read.

Link to comment

Actually I joined this thread specifically to share my experiences as both a rider and as someone who worked in a dealership and has mounted many tires over the years and was basically told I was wrong and that new tires are fine after a few quick turns and it is all rider error/throttle control not any sort of slippery surface issue....and the fact that at least one other longtime member had similar experiences was all but dismissed out of hand.

Link to comment

Well, don't give up then. And certainly don't resort to personal insults. You're above that, and you have good stuff to share. I'd like to hear input from all places. All I'm interested in is the truth.

 

Everything I've shared so far from my own personal experience is the truth, and I presume other feedback has been, too. So we've got to somehow weave a fabric together that accounts for it.

 

My experience (other than just reading) comes from:

 

1) Riding on the street.

 

2) Riding on the track.

 

3) Changing tires as part of the crew for the Superbike School, where every three days we put new tires on every bike, scrubbed them in for about 2 mins apiece (street tires), and then people zoomed off on them.

 

Anyway, let's keep the thread open so we can learn. :thumbsup:

Link to comment
ShovelStrokeEd

Sigh!!

No one is insisting that they know best. We are relating our own experiences with new tires. I'm one of the ones who has never gone down on a new tire. Had a couple of moments, sure, I even posted about them in other threads.

 

Russell has repeated stated that he is trying to determine why a new tire should be slippery and why his experience with them has been contrary to that allegation. He has repeatedly mentioned that he works up to the knee down thing over the course of a couple of laps which would indicate that a gradual scuffing is, indeed, important.

 

Another point to ponder here is that typically, a tire destined for track use probably has far less pressure than one intended for street use and thus may come up to temperature more quickly, whatever one considers to be up to temperature and whether or not one considers that important in the overall slip equation. Certainly it will impact how soft the rubber gets and certainly again, it will impact whatever goo is on the tire.

Link to comment
russell_bynum
Another point to ponder here is that typically, a tire destined for track use probably has far less pressure than one intended for street use and thus may come up to temperature more quickly, whatever one considers to be up to temperature and whether or not one considers that important in the overall slip equation. Certainly it will impact how soft the rubber gets and certainly again, it will impact whatever goo is on the tire.

 

Currently I run race tires on the track and street tires on the street. So any comparison there would not be relevant. But...that was new for me in 2008.

 

Before that, I ran Pilot Powers on the Street (Tuono) and Pilot Powers on the track (CBR600RR). I ran the same pressure (~32psi) regardless.

Link to comment

It's a beautiful day in this neighborhood,

A beautiful day for a neighbor.

Would you be mine?

Could you be mine?...

 

It's a neighborly day in this beauty wood,

A neighborly day for a beauty.

Would you be mine?

Could you be mine?...

 

I've always wanted to have a neighbor just like you.

I've always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.

 

So, let's make the most of this beautiful day.

Since we're together we might as well say:

Would you be mine?

Could you be mine?

Won't you be my neighbor?

Won't you please,

Won't you please?

Please won't you be my neighbor?

 

Link to comment
I think the real cause is synthetic oil seeping passed the seals and getting on the tires. :lurk:

 

Is that the Castrol or the Amsoil or the Motul or the Mobil or.... :dopeslap:

Link to comment

Please won't you be my neighbor?

_________________________

Jacqueline Lucenti

 

Thanks Jacqueline - We really need to remember who we are!

 

Notice that I have totally stayed out of this thread! Way too little factual information for my taste!

 

Stan

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...