New RoadSmarts = Dropped Bike

[Perlova]

Just had a brand new set of Dunlop Roadsmarts put on my R11RT and the first corner I took, the bike slipped out from under me like I was on ice....went down like a ton of bricks.

 

Anyone had this happen to them on new tires? Did I hit the glue from the labels maybe?

 

 

 

 

[rob1100r]

OUCH! Maybe so, if you saw nothing on the road where you slid. Any 'tarsnakes'? I just put a rear RoadSmart on my R1100R and it has been great, no sliding for me

[Perlova]

Nothing on the road. Clean, dry asphalt. There was what looked like paper residue on the tire, which makes me suspect a label.

 

 

 

[GregB]

I thought the Roadsmarts were ready for "pushing it" faster than other tires. I had them put on and headed for the twisties 5 miles of surface streets and 5 miles of freeway away. I was very careful as always with new tires. They felt so good, so fast that I touched a peg in a corner within 15 miles into the twisties.

[philbytx]

New tires = Slippery, and more so if the weather & roads are cold!

 

Had the rear of a new set of D205's step out on me as I turned a tight corner on a well cambered road. Fortunately, I was going fairly slow

[OoPEZoO]

Anyone had this happen to them on new tires? Did I hit the glue from the labels maybe?

 

Paging Richard!

[Deadboy]

I always adhere to the 100 miles rule (i.e. treat em like they are very slipper for the first 100)....new tires are notoriously slippery, I have heard it is because of the releasing agent they use in the tire mold when manufacturing them but I have not proof that is actually the case.

 

Some folks say 25 miles is enough but 100 was how I was taught...

 

[nldaniel]

As mentioned above, new tires are slippery and will slide during normal cornering. Generally recommended is to ride carefully for about 50-80 miles to allow whatever is on the tire to wear away. Sorry you learned about this the hard way. I often change tires during a week when I need to drive a car(for work) all week. So I might have them changed, mount them and not ride the bike for a week. I always put a post it note on the speedo to remind myself.

 

Regards, Daniel

[Crackenback]

Just had a brand new set of Dunlop Roadsmarts put on my R11RT and the first corner I took, the bike slipped out from under me like I was on ice....went down like a ton of bricks.

 

 

 

Maybe they were sloppy with the tire lube and there was enough to cause a problem.

 

I have been riding for over 25 years and on occasion have had the bike slide around a little on brand new tires. But for the last couple of years I have not had any problems with new tires. I still take it a little easy for the first hundred miles or so just to play it safe but today's tires don't seem to be as slippery when new as they have been in the past.

 

 

Anyone had this happen to them on new tires? Did I hit the glue from the labels maybe?

 

 

 

 

One would think that left over glue on the tire surface would make them more sticky. Guess it would depend on the glue though...

[David]

The mold release agents really aren't much of an issue any more, though temperature certainly can be. I have regularly (like a dozen times) put street tires on a bike and been at full speed, knee down speed in 3-4 miles.

 

I think the smart thing to do is do some heavy swerving in gravel, or just counter-lean the bike in a parking lot, doing circles in both directions, running an increasingly tighter radius, for about 5 mins total.

 

More important than ANYTHING with new tires is good throttle control the first few miles.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

What David said, new tires are not slippery any more, at least not from mold release compound.

 

Cold tires, on the other hand, can be really slick. The good news is that a street design tire warms up fairly quickly and its optimal traction temperature is pretty low.

 

When you consider that the label is about 4" of about a 6 foot circumference, that idea goes out the window as well.

 

Likely what happened is you hit something slick on the road, ATF or coolant and the bike slid. I have been right to the edge of pretty new Roadsmarts with less than 12 miles on them and no slip or slide and that is on a bike with far better power to weight ratio than an RT.

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

Mold release is real and must be used when curing any rubber, cure in place, items. With the forming of tread, it becomes even more critical. More release = cheaper labor to extract. Better release i.e. more Silicone or Teflon = cheaper labor to extract. No release = stuck parts and maybe a damaged mold. My work involves designing and curing of rubber parts.

It is entirely possible that some mfr's do a wipe down on their tire to try to remove some residual release but, there's that cost thing again.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Of course it is real and the next time I decide to ride on a stainless steel road, I'll worry about the coefficient of it vs the rubber on concrete.

 

I do recommend taking it easy with new tires but that is more of a scuff in/heat cycle process than any residue left on the surface of the tread.

[David]

I didn't say it wasn't real--I said it's not nearly the factor it used to be. Do a little reading on motorcycle tire manufacturer websites and you'll see what I mean.

 

The idea that mold release is slathered all over a tire nowadays like it used to be makes as much sense as changing your oil every 3,000 miles.

[Perlova]

I'm sure that it was the slick surface of the tire that contributed to the slip. I hit the corner at only about 20mph. I checked the are where it started to slide and there was no residue on the road. I'll bet if I had gone even 1 mile without a sharp turn, the tire would have worked itself in.

 

Oh well, live and learn. At least there was only minor damage done....even though the bike slid on the valve cover for about 20 feet.

[upflying]

Green tires equal trouble. You got to burn them with some easy riding before you lean on them too much.

[russell_bynum]

As mentioned above, new tires are slippery and will slide during normal cornering. Generally recommended is to ride carefully for about 50-80 miles to allow whatever is on the tire to wear away. Sorry you learned about this the hard way. I often change tires during a week when I need to drive a car(for work) all week. So I might have them changed, mount them and not ride the bike for a week. I always put a post it note on the speedo to remind myself.

 

Regards, Daniel

 

Like David, I've been knee-down at the track on street tires within a couple of laps of mounting the tires. That's ~3 miles at most of the tracks we ride.

 

I always take it easy at first and build up to speed/lean gradually to allow the tire to come up to temp. I do that with old tires as well as new.

[Perlova]

There should be a big warning label on all new tires that warn about a 100 mile burn in.

 

Just like the labels they put on lawnmowers, that say "Do not pick this mower up to trim your hedges"

[David]

A "100-mile" warning label would be supreme overkill.

[Perlova]

A "100-mile" warning label would be supreme overkill.

 

Why?...in this litigious world that we live in, nobody takes responsibility for their own actions, choosing to sue at the drop of a hat. For that reason alone, you would think that a prudent company would put warning labels everywhere.

 

By the way, the lawnmower thing actually happened. Someone successfully sued the lawnmower manufacturer, because they explicitly did not preclude it's use as a hedge trimmer. Some doofus picked it up to even out the hedge row, and cut off his fingers.

[Prof. Robert]

+1 on the hundred mile scrub in. Maybe it's necessary; maybe it's not, but it certainly does no harm.

 

The day after I mounted and balanced my new RoadSmarts, I had the opportunity to ride in a light drizzle for about 45 minutes without experiencing walnut cracking slipping or sliding; in fact, the tires stuck pretty good not great but pretty good for new tires in the rain.

 

My 2 cents,

Robert

[SKYGZR]

Hint: Purchase a Scrubber Wheel (for paint stripping) Usually Black Heavy bristles aprx 4" dia. Will fit any standard hand drill chuck. Even if the dealer mounts the tires, one can take the time to use the wheel to scuff them up while they're on the machine. It's easier of course if one mounts/balances themselves. Works Wonders.

[russell_bynum]

+1 on the hundred mile scrub in. Maybe it's necessary; maybe it's not, but it certainly does no harm.

 

Robert

 

Why not make it 10,000 miles?

 

Probably not necessary, but certainly does no harm.

[Mr. Frank]

In addition to the traction concerns with new tires you have the new handling characteristics. I mounted a new set of Roadsmarts a month ago, and I recall that the label said to take it easy for 100 miles to get used to the handling of the new tires. I noticed that compared to other tires, the Roadsmarts really fell into low speed corners in an almost scary way. A buddy with an ST1300 said he almost dropped his bike when he picked it up after getting a set of Roadsmarts mounted. Perhaps you ended up leaning way more than you intended.

 

I also noticed that when new the Roadsmarts were extremely sensitive to the slightest rider input, gusty winds, and truck turbulence. It was hard to go straight without really paying attention. After a few thousand miles the bike was much steadier. It was steady in high speed sweepers from the beginning.

[Tony_K]

First and foremost sorry about the spill. Those are never fun.

 

Everybody knows you need to take a acetylene torch to new tire! It's simple just get the rubber to bubble and you know they are ready to go. STICKY Don't let it catch fire though it's really hard to put it out.

 

As for warning stickers... Your riding a fricken motorcycle! 90% of the population already thinks you're a idiot. The motorcycle itself is a warning sticker.

 

[Perlova]

When I was looking for new tires. I searched this forum for hours and compared opinions on different brands.

 

I don't recall even once reading about the need to "season" a new tire before riding on it. And after getting one installed at the dealer, they did not express this concern to me either.

 

I hope that subsequent readers who do searches, will find this post and be alerted to the need to be careful.

[snod]

Several years ago, around 2001, I bought a new set of tires in Albany, NY. My wife and I had just finished a fall tour of New England. I made arrangements in advance with the local BMW dealer, and I stopped there after I dropped the wife off at the airport. They installed the new tires, and put a round 1.5" orange sticker in the middle of my tach. The sticker had a skull and cross bones in the center with the words NEW at the top and TIRES at the bottom. It was only half stuck on, so that it was easy to remove. I recall looking down and seeing the sticker just as I stared back onto the Interstate on ramp. It reminded me not to lean it over too far. A good idea I thought.

[ogjimbob]

http://www.pneus-online.co.uk/running-in-and-wear-advice.html

 

http://home.clara.net/survivalskills/new_tyres.htm

 

http://www.superbiketyres.com/faqs.htm

 

just a couple of seconds on google I have always been told to, and have always adehered to the 100 mile "rule" its no big deal, and if it stops me landing on my face on the tarmac then I'm happy

[David]

The best information comes from motorcycle tire manufacturers--none of those warnings are.

[upflying]

The local HD dealer used to do a quick smoky burnout on the police bikes when we had new tires mounted. Didn't help the front much though.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

When I was looking for new tires. I searched this forum for hours and compared opinions on different brands.

 

I don't recall even once reading about the need to "season" a new tire before riding on it. And after getting one installed at the dealer, they did not express this concern to me either.

 

I hope that subsequent readers who do searches, will find this post and be alerted to the need to be careful.

 

I also hope they will read beyond the title and realize that the reason you crashed was cold tires, not the Roadsmarts, which I have found to be exemplary under a wide variety of operating conditions.

[Perlova]

Several years ago, around 2001, I bought a new set of tires in Albany, NY. My wife and I had just finished a fall tour of New England. I made arrangements in advance with the local BMW dealer, and I stopped there after I dropped the wife off at the airport. They installed the new tires, and put a round 1.5" orange sticker in the middle of my tach. The sticker had a skull and cross bones in the center with the words NEW at the top and TIRES at the bottom. It was only half stuck on, so that it was easy to remove. I recall looking down and seeing the sticker just as I stared back onto the Interstate on ramp. It reminded me not to lean it over too far. A good idea I thought.

 

Now that's value added service. A good reason to go back to that dealer.

 

 

[Perlova]

 

I also hope they will read beyond the title and realize that the reason you crashed was cold tires, not the Roadsmarts, which I have found to be exemplary under a wide variety of operating conditions.

 

I'm still happy with the Roadsmarts. I did put the bike together and went for a nice ride (100 miles) and the tires performed very well.

I'm treating this episode as a learning experience. One down and hundreds to go. Hopefully not all will be so expensive.

[JohnBeaven]

 

This is what Michelin say about new tyres and breaking them in...

 

LINK

 

My tyre retailer always warns his customers to take it easy for the first 50km on new tyres. I find I take it easy for as long as it takes to forget I have new tyres.

[ogjimbob]

The best information comes from motorcycle tire manufacturers--none of those warnings are.

nitpicking wheres the harm in being safe? if I had known you wanted a manufacturers recomendation, I would have spent another 10-15 secs looking

[David]

If you're aiming for safe, don't ride a motorcycle.

 

The best antidote against falling on your ass after changing to new tires on a motorcycle is using your head (thinking) and your hand (throttle control).

 

The problem with aiming for "safe" is that you relax, thinking you've fixed something and no longer have to use as much head and hand.

 

I should probably just stay out of these threads, but I start to twitch when dogma is built on really imprecise thinking, like this. And why not just keep looking in Google instead of your response.

 

Do what you like. I'll put my 45th set of tires on next, do no scrubbing in other than around the block, but use my head and hand appropriately, and take off in a ride in the rain without any scrub in, as I've done quite a number of times. It's the false sense of security I'm cautioning against, as if it will make up for lack of attention.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

With tongue firmly in cheek;

 

Maybe more folks should acquaint themselves with bikes that can spin the rear tire on a corner regardless of pavement/tire condition. I'd suggest a GSXR 1000 or CBR1000RR or any of the larger Italian sports bikes.

 

You will learn throttle control in a great big hurry.

[Perlova]

With tongue firmly in cheek;

 

Maybe more folks should acquaint themselves with bikes that can spin the rear tire on a corner regardless of pavement/tire condition. I'd suggest a GSXR 1000 or CBR1000RR or any of the larger Italian sports bikes.

 

You will learn throttle control in a great big hurry.

 

This had nothing to do with throttle control or spinning tires. The tire slid out sideways. Nothing you can do but go down.

[Perlova]

The best information comes from motorcycle tire manufacturers--none of those warnings are.

nitpicking wheres the harm in being safe? if I had known you wanted a manufacturers recomendation, I would have spent another 10-15 secs looking

 

I hope this thread keeps expanding. A better chance that someone else will see it and know that you have to be careful with new tires.

[Perlova]

If you're aiming for safe, don't ride a motorcycle.

 

The best antidote against falling on your ass after changing to new tires on a motorcycle is using your head (thinking) and your hand (throttle control).

 

The problem with aiming for "safe" is that you relax, thinking you've fixed something and no longer have to use as much head and hand.

 

I should probably just stay out of these threads, but I start to twitch when dogma is built on really imprecise thinking, like this. And why not just keep looking in Google instead of your response.

 

Do what you like. I'll put my 45th set of tires on next, do no scrubbing in other than around the block, but use my head and hand appropriately, and take off in a ride in the rain without any scrub in, as I've done quite a number of times. It's the false sense of security I'm cautioning against, as if it will make up for lack of attention.

 

These are exactly the kind of arrogant replies that are not helpful at all. We know that you are a great rider and the rest of us shouldn't be on motorcycles. Just remember that arrogance can get you killed just as quickly as ignorance. The previous posts added something to this thread, and understanding of new tire characteristics and hopefully to others riding safely. Your post did nothing.....

[Boffin]

David's reply was accurate. If you do things by rote then you do not learn. If you think about each maneouvre, each addition to the bike, each situation you find yourself in, then you learn to adapt to all of them.

 

Yes, new tyres are slippery - usually the rear lets go when corner+throttle come at the same time. I once dropped my current bike right outside the dealer because I had got sidetracked whilst leaving, was about to go on a tour, and when I got on the bike I used too much right-wrist.

 

New tyres do come with a warning on the label, but nothing substitutes for experience - especially the sliding down the road on yer backside type of experience.

 

Andy

[BeniciaRT_GT]

What David said, new tires are not slippery any more, at least not from mold release compound.

 

Cold tires, on the other hand, can be really slick. The good news is that a street design tire warms up fairly quickly and its optimal traction temperature is pretty low.

 

When you consider that the label is about 4" of about a 6 foot circumference, that idea goes out the window as well.

 

Likely what happened is you hit something slick on the road, ATF or coolant and the bike slid. I have been right to the edge of pretty new Roadsmarts with less than 12 miles on them and no slip or slide and that is on a bike with far better power to weight ratio than an RT.

 

Okay, I've really become amused at some of the speculation from some of us here about what is or isn't "REALLY" happening.

 

Because it hasn't happened to you Ed, (or David/Russell/other "experts") doesn't mean it is not an issue. (Any tire seller will agree it is an issue.)

 

It isn't mold release any more, it is a preservative they put on the tires. (I get to speculate too )

 

Temperature can be ruled out as far as I'm concerned, since the tires are the exact same temperature each morning (well, ambient at least...)

 

And to answer the original poster:

 

Yes it has happened to many lesser riders. Throttle control, as David mentioned,seems to be the most evil of this issues, but asking for much traction at all is an issue on some tires. (Some more than others.)

 

For reference, I have been through about 11 sets of tires over the last 2 years, and 4 of the same brand (Michelin PR IIs) and only had even a problem with one set of the PR IIs. My thread is here... Sorry, but there is some silliness at first, so you have to scroll down a bit, or try this link: Individual post here.

[David]

Richard, I'm not an expert or even an "expert." I've never called myself that and never will. It leads to arrogance, and I don't need any more of that. I need to ride humbly, with real mental attention, and with as much skill as I can muster.

 

I have not gone down (dirt doesn't count, hopefully), but that's a combination of skill and dumb luck. I've certainly deserved to go down several times, and the fact that I haven't makes me grateful and a little teary eyed, not arrogant. It also gets me thinking about skill development.

 

I can't tell if you're ridiculing me or not, so I'll just leave it at that. I'm just a rider who likes to think and learn.

 

One reason I've jumped into this thread is because I think we're putting too much weight on the new tire and not enough on our heads (thinking) and hands (throttle control). For example, after reading all the good advice in this thread, the original poster just said this:

 

This had nothing to do with throttle control or spinning tires. The tire slid out sideways. Nothing you can do but go down.

 

I can't imagine a more incorrect statement than that. I presume he's saying it partly out of anger that we (or maybe just "I") are calling that idea into question, but it nevertheless is wrong.

 

I don't really give a damn, truth be told, except when it comes to me or someone I know personally going down, but it's hard to let this stuff just go by without comment.

 

Cheers.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I'm gonna just say I agree with David.

 

I too, am by no means an expert but do/did average about 40K miles a year over the last 5 or so years and get about 6K out of a set of tires, typically. You do the math.

 

I've slid tires before and not gone down and that includes tucking the front on new/cold tires. I've seen other riders lose the rear to one extent or another and save it. To say there is nothing you can do is just wrong.

 

Ask Laney about crossing that cattle grate up on the Bear Tooth Pass. The rear of her bike stepped out well over a foot and she barely noticed it.

[BeniciaRT_GT]

Well, I agree with David's earlier comment too: I should just stay out of these threads. I also agree with David in that it is hard for me to let these kind of comments go by...

 

Ed, I easily do as many miles as you do, and I know I ride as hard if not harder.

 

I'm not saying sliding the tires is an issue. I've recovered from some scary moments and giggled. However with this issue, in my case, and apparently many others', this was not a tire stepping out. This was not a slide. These tires were as slick as algae on a wet rock.

 

The thing I guess that seems to chap my butt is that I can only see the (very few) opinions as pure self righteous arrogance. It is that simple. Because it hasn't happened to you, we are all idiots/full of it/etc.

 

Whether we are less skilled throttle turners, tire retailers, etc. we/they are all just ignorant, and should just know the facts as your superior selves see it.

 

I just can't see how you can be so right and so many others be so wrong... But I guess I just don't get it at all apparently.

 

And before I just ignore this thread completely, I do have one more question:

 

If this isn't an issue at all, when why bother carefully riding around the block even once? That certainly won't heat cycle the tires enough to make a difference.

[David]

I don't know if you're addressing me or Ed, but I really don't want this thread to get personal. That seems like a waste of energy.

 

I'm more interested in a useful discussion, so I'm going to pick my battles here.

 

Sorry to have gotten you riled up, Richard. That wasn't my intent.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Richard,

It has nothing to do with hard riding and I'm certainly not arrogant about my skills. Just as you have, I've had a lot of experience with new tires and have just never encountered this kind of thing.

 

Re-reading the OP's comment in the first post in this thread, he went down in the first corner after leaving the dealership with new tires mounted. He is also from Canada, where ambient temperatures may well be a good bit lower than S. Florida. My first turn on my then new Dunlop Roadsmarts was a right turn out of the dealer's lot and a U-turn about 50 feet later that I did in second gear and about at a 15 foot radius, I then went about 6 miles up the road mostly doing sharp weaves within my lane at about 30-35 mph. That was the last time I paid any attention to tire wear-in. It was also about 95 degrees out with a very strong sun shining on the pavement so temperature was not much of an issue.

 

I do inspect every new set of tires for snot like tire mounting fluid which is likely what got the OP. That or just some spill on the ground.

 

Just read your final analysis in the link you provided and think you are spot on.

[tallman]

Last time, or the time before, or the time before the time before, I forget, we had an engineer whoworks with rubber compounds chime in.

His commentss must have been accurate because they agree with me.

To finish/complete curing modern compounds used in motorcycle tires requires heat cycle(s).

 

You can lose traction w/old/new/hot/cold tires. Happens on racetracks w/w/out tire warmers

 

MCN did a huge study an published the result (I'm tired of searching and linking) which looked at "scrubbing", heat cycles, etc.

They too stated that heat cycles were required.

Now, just because someone can hop on a bike and push it after a few miles doesn't mean the tire is completely cured.

Nor does a series of heat cycles guarantee you can't lose traction.

But, the only studies I have seen, and not empirical anecdotal responses, have shown the need to run new street tires through heat cycle(s) to get them to their optimum condition.

 

We're discussing diffent items.

One, handling and throttle control which can cause probelms w/any tires.

The other is what effect new tires have, if any, on handling throttle control.

My anecdotal/empirical evidence is replete w/crashes where new tires were on the bikes and the riders had not gone very far.

One other esteemed board member picked up a new bike and left the dealership in Chicago and experienced first hand what new tires can lead to if you're not careful.

It happens.

It doesn't always happen, but why risk it?

Best wishes.

[Perlova]

As my last comment.

 

This thread started out about letting people know about the risks associated with new tires, that's it.

Throttle control and a riders abilities are one thing, but what if you hit a patch of black ice on a turn? What if you have never heard of such a thing as black ice? Do you think any amount of throttle control will help? If there is no traction you are done.

It's about identifying a risk and that's all.

 

Thanks to all that replied....

[David]

Tim, new tires are certainly slippery. There's no doubting that.

 

So here's a few questions for you:

 

1) What kind of riding takes a STREET tire (not a track tire) into and out of a heat cycle? I'll answer that and say it has absolutely nothing to do with distance or acceleration or braking, which leaves cornering.

 

2) How are you going to get that tire on the edge, to achieve the heat cycle, without falling down? The answer is with your head (thinking) and your hand (throttle control).

 

3) What's the difference between the thousands of riders every day who take off on new tires and stay up vs. those who go down? The same two things.

 

If I put new tires on and go down, it'll be because my head and hand did not account for the lesser traction of a new tire. It's me--not the tire.