Motorcycle feels sluggish at low RPM

[profbodryak]

Finally have more details to share. Went to Morton's BMW this past Saturday. I was able to again reproduce the issue and the mechanic recorded the video of me when it happened on the parking lot. I must also mention, that I took out a showroom R1250RT and it exhibited the same problem. This video was relayed to BMW of NA. Here's what's causing it: around 2020 BMW introduced the  Dynamic Braking Control which is intended to intervene in emergency stopping situations and prevent panic throttle application. 

In order to remove dynamic braking, it appears that Ride Modes Pro would have to go with it. Morton's BMW is trying to get BMW to investigate further and see if they can separate the two, and hopefully, there will be more to come. Interestingly, police R1250RT's don't have this feature because enough departments disliked it for this exact safety concern reason. 

 

(a portion of this post has been adopted from a text message by the Morton's BMW technician) 

[profbodryak]

Here it is. Page 158. 

[Hati]

3 hours ago, profbodryak said:

Here it is. Page 158. 

 

Ok, I get how it works, but how do you trigger it?  It needs emergency breaking as a condition. Surely you don't brake like that every time...

[Skywagon]

If you are riding and decelerate just using engine/gear, no brakes, does it have that symptom?

[profbodryak]

Hati, I can't call this emergency braking by any means. Feels that the threshold is very low for this to be actuated.

 

Skywagon, I haven't been able to reproduce it this way. It only happens for me when I come to a complete stop so need to apply brakes for it to happen.

[dirtrider]

10 minutes ago, profbodryak said:

Hati, I can't call this emergency braking by any means. Feels that the threshold is very low for this to be actuated.

 

Skywagon, I haven't been able to reproduce it this way. It only happens for me when I come to a complete stop so need to apply brakes for it to happen.

Morning profbodryak

 

Are you leaning the motorcycle with the brakes applied when it happens? I think the dynamic braking considers braking with a   motorcycle lean within their control parameter.   

[profbodryak]

Dirtrider, no leaning. Straight up. 

[TSConver]

1 hour ago, profbodryak said:

Hati, I can't call this emergency braking by any means. Feels that the threshold is very low for this to be actuated.

 

Skywagon, I haven't been able to reproduce it this way. It only happens for me when I come to a complete stop so need to apply brakes for it to happen.

 

There is no threshold.  If you are braking at any pressure then the throttle is greatly detuned.

 

On the GS(A) bikes it is called DBC (dynamic brake control) it can be turned off in Dynamic Pro and Enduro Pro.  Not sure if your bike has Dynamic Pro, if so you can try turning it off there.  Here is a good video explaining the modes for the GS(A) bikes.  

 

[profbodryak]

TSConver, if I brake more gently, throttle gives a response right away. On RT's there's a dynamic mode but no other options. Dynamic pro is not an option, the only other ones are rain, road and eco. 

[JCtx]

So now we have more facts; thank you very much for posting that. Okay, so that's the safety system that prevents applying the throttle while braking (many cars have that feature too); forgot that our bikes have that. And there's no reason to do that... unless you're doing a burn-out (which you shouldn't do anyway). So now the situation is this: Are TWO new bikes defective, or are you inadvertently opening the throttle grip while braking? Unfortunately, it's looking more like the latter. If that's the case, you could work to get rid of that 'bad' habit (similar to riding with boots under the levers in the twisties), and/or ride more defensively, to avoid having to use such aggressive action in the first place. And even if you can later disable DBC on your bike (like adding the 'Dyna PRO' riding mode), you don't want to keep doing what you're doing now, since it could dangerously extend your braking distance. Plus riding in Dyna PRO mode on the streets wouldn't be a good idea at all IMO, since it disables all nannies (except front ABS). Finally, yes, the system should reset quicker, but it is what it is, and the same thing happens on cars when TC/DTC intervenes: Seems to take forever to reset. So better learn how to prevent that from happening in the first place.

 

Sorry for not saying what you wanted to hear, but I'm sure you can now see what's the problem: You want a good safety system disabled, because of the way you ride. So you have 2 options: Work on that bad habit, be a safer rider, and enjoy your great bike. Or buy a different brand bike without that safety system, and keep doing what you're doing (which could potentially cause an accident in the future). I'm not judging, but for a lot of us, safety is our #1 priority, and since you bought a BMW, I'd guess safety is high on your list too. So I'd go with option #1 all day. You can eliminate that habit in no time. But I'd also leave 5 minutes earlier, so you can ride in a more relaxed manner. Just want to keep you safe, brother. Hope you don't take it the wrong way. And keep us posted on what you decide to do.

[profbodryak]

JCtx, I appreciate the sentiment but I don't have that habit and I don't apply brakes at the same time while opening the throttle. What I have described here in my several posts is an algorithm that kicks in when the timing between deceleration and take off is a split second. In an unfortunate situation on the road when you need the power, you just don't have any control over the 600 pound motorcycle. Sometimes you just can't plan for safety and people are really out there to get you. So you should have power in any situation whether you leave 5 or even 10 minutes early. What I failed to mention is that there is a police officer who experienced the same issue and who almost crashed as a result. This makes the two of us plus a total of three RT's one of which was an RT-P (which per my dealer is not even supposed to have this). This has now been escalated to the AG. Hoping for an option in the future to have this feature disabled. Besides, if what you said is true, then my braking distance should not be extended because the safety algorithm kicks in. Which exposes the rider to a complete loss of power and consequently exposing the rider to unnecessary danger. Not having power to get out of a situation is one of the worst. 

[JCtx]

I doubt that's the case, but it's always possible, I guess. Remember even a 1% throttle application before fully releasing the brakes would trigger that action, and you wouldn't even feel it. So you (and the other guys) might not have felt you didn't have the throttle fully closed. It has happened to me (on an S1000RR, but same system) when braking super aggressively at the track, and wanting to quick-downshift before I had the throttle fully closed (on its way there, but not at 0% yet), thinking I had it fully closed, but it wasn't, so the computer didn't let me downshift that first time. That's the kind of 'error' I'm talking about. But I've never experienced that behavior with my R bike, because I never put myself in a situation needing to do what you're describing either, but who knows. At any rate, hopefully BMW will be able (and willing) to disable that feature for you, since GS owners can do it via their 'Dyna PRO' riding mode. But without that feature, if you accidentally leave the throttle open while braking, your braking distance would increase, since the safety algorithm wouldn't be there. Best of luck. Hope you can keep your bike.

[dirtrider]

13 hours ago, profbodryak said:

JCtx, I appreciate the sentiment but I don't have that habit and I don't apply brakes at the same time while opening the throttle. What I have described here in my several posts is an algorithm that kicks in when the timing between deceleration and take off is a split second. In an unfortunate situation on the road when you need the power, you just don't have any control over the 600 pound motorcycle. Sometimes you just can't plan for safety and people are really out there to get you. So you should have power in any situation whether you leave 5 or even 10 minutes early. What I failed to mention is that there is a police officer who experienced the same issue and who almost crashed as a result. This makes the two of us plus a total of three RT's one of which was an RT-P (which per my dealer is not even supposed to have this). This has now been escalated to the AG. Hoping for an option in the future to have this feature disabled. Besides, if what you said is true, then my braking distance should not be extended because the safety algorithm kicks in. Which exposes the rider to a complete loss of power and consequently exposing the rider to unnecessary danger. Not having power to get out of a situation is one of the worst. 

Morning   profbodryak

 

ANY way you look at it the system as you describe it is very dangerous. At least for aggressive riders as there are many many occasions that I use both the throttle & braking at the same time. 

 

I ride late apex with late braking so most of the time pick the throttle back up prior to fully releasing the braking as that keeps the drivetrain & suspension loaded going into the late lean-in. 

 

If I had a throttle lag right at the point I positively NEEDED to pick the throttle up but was still trailing the braking into the apex I could easily slide over the fog line & onto gravel (or worse into the trees). 

 

Defeating this system would HAVE to be a top priority for me personally to ride that motorcycle. 

 

If the throttle system is that brain-dead then WHAT THE HECK was BMW thinking when they released that motorcycle to the public???  That system could kill an aggressive rider in a nano second. 

 

 

[Skywagon]

43 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

ANY way you look at it the system as you describe it is very dangerous

This^^*
 

BMW needs to fix this. Probably not to the degree of DR, but there ar times when I’m riding hard, I use power and braking at the same time. 
 

Cars… super dumb idea if you live and drive in hilly country. When I pull my boat up a steep ramp, reducing power before applying brakes or worse vice-versa would be a big mistake. The boat, 11,000 lbs, could and likely would drag my car in the water. 
 

JCtx… you said you’ve seen this in some cars. Which ones as I want to make sure I don’t buy one. 

[Hosstage]

I just see it as a terrible condition, whether on purpose or due to defect. Completely unacceptable. What problem is it trying to solve? Was someone complaining that their throttle was working properly, please make it questionable?

[dirtrider]

14 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

 

Cars… super dumb idea if you live and drive in hilly country. When I pull my boat up a steep ramp, reducing power before applying brakes or worse vice-versa would be a big mistake. The boat, 11,000 lbs, could and likely would drag my car in the water. 
 

Morning David

 

Same "super dumb idea" on a motorcycle as there are times that you are stopped on a steep incline then a car pulls right up on your rear fender.  You need to throttle up prior to brake release so you don't roll back into the car at brake release or stall the engine at a low RPM clutch engagement. 

 

 

[TSConver]

3 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

I just see it as a terrible condition, whether on purpose or due to defect. Completely unacceptable. What problem is it trying to solve? Was someone complaining that their throttle was working properly, please make it questionable?

 

It is to protect the newbies riding that brake and roll the throttle at the same time.  Guess I am lucky or fortunate that I can turn mine off with dynamic pro.  As said I trail brake with my middle finger and start rolling gently mid turn.

[Hosstage]

1 minute ago, TSConver said:

 

It is to protect the newbies riding that brake and roll the throttle at the same time.  Guess I am lucky or fortunate that I can turn mine off with dynamic pro.  As said I trail brake with my middle finger and start rolling gently mid turn.

So the throttle unexpectedly cuts out? Seems not conducive to a new rider's safety either.

If it happened to a copper while riding, about as trained and seasoned a rider as there is, what chance does a new rider have?

[TSConver]

1 minute ago, Hosstage said:

So the throttle unexpectedly cuts out? Seems not conducive to a new rider's safety either.

If it happened to a copper while riding, about as trained and seasoned a rider as there is, what chance does a new rider have?

 

Never tested it, went straight to dynamic pro.  I know in other modes it will not rev if you have the brake applied not sure what happens if you apply the brake with the throttle open.

[Skywagon]

6 minutes ago, TSConver said:

It is to protect the newbies

Maybe… but a newbie shouldn’t be buying a motorcycle of the power and weight of an RT, and a responsible dealer shouldn’t sell them one. I know the dealer will, but that is near suicidal. 

[TSConver]

1 minute ago, Skywagon said:

Maybe… but a newbie shouldn’t be buying a motorcycle of the power and weight of an RT, and a responsible dealer shouldn’t sell them one. I know the dealer will, but that is near suicidal. 

 

Coulda shoulda woulda. Dealer just wants to sell bikes and will sell them whatever they want.  Look how many new riders go out and get liter class sport bikes.

[dirtrider]

51 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

Maybe… but a newbie shouldn’t be buying a motorcycle of the power and weight of an RT, and a responsible dealer shouldn’t sell them one. I know the dealer will, but that is near suicidal. 

Morning David

 

It shouldn't even be an issue, BMW should have provided a defeat setting to make it a non issue to those that are seasoned enough to know they don't want or need  it. 

[bimmers]

How is it of you are trail braking with only rear brake? Even in a parking lot this could result in a dropping of the bike, just sayin........

 

 

[Hosstage]

It is automatically defeated for police models, due to safety concerns. I think that says everything regarding the issue.

[JCtx]

There's no justifiable reason to be braking and accelerating at the same time; it's NOT a proper riding technique. Just like drifting is not a proper driving technique either. Neither one makes you quicker at the track. Oh, and you can absolutely use brake and throttle at the same time with the clutch pulled in, like if you're taking off on an incline (and not using 'hill assist'). BMW has very talented test riders that are WAAAAY better than all of us; they don't do safety features half a$$, for what I've seen. So if one of the safety features is activated, you're most likely doing something wrong. They take into account all possible scenarios, and allow for the valid exceptions. So I don't buy for a minute the scenarios stated above, but that's just me, a moderately aggressive and smooth/cautious rider, more the type of Casey Stoner, instead of the crazy aggressive kind, like Valentino Rossi and Mark Marquez (and the above guys, I guess. Ha ha). But nothing wrong with any kind. I'm definitely taking way more risks than the more cautious riders here than never drag a peg, but unfortunately, that's not fun for me. However, I only ride mountain roads on weekdays, with zero traffic, so I'm probably taking less risks than commuters. Or about the same. I'm 61, so don't have that many years left of riding like that, but we'll see. I'm in excellent physical shape for riding, but have incurable cancer, so anything can happen to my body at any time after almost 9 years of chemos, and now a powerful daily ($700/pill) drug.

 

Anyway, the RT is not a race bike, so this argument sounds a little ridiculous to me on that bike; the great majority of RT riders will never touch a peg, so the safety systems are even more important than for more aggressive riders IMO. Heck, I don't have any issues with them, and I ride my bike to its limits... but in a 'safe' manner. And I put it in quotes because I know I'm taking risks just to be riding, let alone cornering aggressively, even with no traffic. I consider myself an above-average rider, but I also realize the value of rider aids (even pros make mistakes -and crash- all the time), so never turn them off. And if I need to change my riding habits to be faster/smoother/safer, of course that's exactly what I do (rather than disable them, to keep doing things the wrong way. Or pretending I'm better than I am), so I can enjoy this sport as long as possible, with the safety net of the nannies in place; that's why I sold my MT-10 and bought the R. The day I cannot SAFELY ride my bike aggressively in the twisties, that's the day I'll sell it. I don't like touring, commuting, or be on the bike if not having fun (or on the way to have fun). And there's no fun place to ride where I live less than 200 miles away, so the bike sits in my garage most of the time, except for the few trips a year I can make.

 

Finally, MANY vehicles don't allow you to brake and accelerate at the same time (brake-torque) to protect the transmission. Most automatic sports cars don't have that feature, and some even offer 'launch control', but a lot of the main-stream ones do. Again, you absolutely do NOT need to do that on a normal vehicle, and have never tried brake-torquing on one. But if it's that important to somebody, try it when test-driving a new car.

[Skywagon]

2 minutes ago, JCtx said:

Finally, MANY vehicles don't allow you to brake and accelerate at the same time

 

I would like to know which ones they are.  I can do both on my wifes Lexus, my Tahoe, former BMW car, former Ford Truck, and any car/truck I've ever had....and with my dad being a new car dealer growing up, I've had more cars (trade ins) than most people have.  I'm not doubting you, but I would like to know which ones so I can ask the mfg why.  I haven't burned a transmission or a torque converter since I was a teenager and that was a long long time ago.

[Hosstage]

Then why is it defeated from the factory on police bikes?

Edit: this in response to JCtx post.

[dirtrider]

33 minutes ago, JCtx said:

There's no justifiable reason to be braking and accelerating at the same time; it's NOT a proper riding technique. Just like drifting is not a proper driving technique either. Neither one makes you quicker at the track. Oh, and you can absolutely use brake and throttle at the same time with the clutch pulled in, like if you're taking off on an incline (and not using 'hill assist'). BMW has very talented test riders that are WAAAAY better than all of us; they don't do safety features half a$$, for what I've seen. So if one of the safety features is activated, you're most likely doing something wrong. They take into account all possible scenarios, and allow for the valid exceptions. So I don't buy for a minute the scenarios stated above, but that's just me, a moderately aggressive and smooth/cautious rider, more the type of Casey Stoner, instead of the crazy aggressive kind, like Valentino Rossi and Mark Marquez (and the above guys, I guess. Ha ha). But nothing wrong with any kind. I'm definitely taking way more risks than the more cautious riders here than never drag a peg, but unfortunately, that's not fun for me. However, I only ride mountain roads on weekdays, with zero traffic, so I'm probably taking less risks than commuters. Or about the same. I'm 61, so don't have that many years left of riding. Might get a convertible sports car after the bike. Ha ha.

 

Anyway, the RT is not a race bike, so this argument sounds a little ridiculous to me on that bike; the great majority of RT riders will never touch a peg, so the safety systems are even more important than for more aggressive riders IMO. Heck, I don't have any issues with them, and I ride my bike to its limits... but in a 'safe' manner. And I put it in quotes because I know I'm taking risks just to be riding, let alone cornering aggressively, even with no traffic. I consider myself an above-average rider, but I also realize the value of rider aids (even pros make mistakes -and crash- all the time), so never turn them off. And if I need to change my riding habits to be faster/smoother/safer, of course that's exactly what I do (rather than disable them, to keep doing things the wrong way. Or pretending I'm better than I am), so I can enjoy this sport as long as possible, with the safety net of the nannies in place; that's why I sold my MT-10 and bought the R. The day I cannot SAFELY ride my bike aggressively in the twisties, that's the day I'll sell it. I don't like touring, commuting, or be on the bike if not having fun (or on the way to have fun). And there's no fun place to ride where I live less than 200 miles away, so the bike sits in my garage most of the time, except for the few trips a year I can make.

 

Finally, MANY vehicles don't allow you to brake and accelerate at the same time (brake-torque) to protect the transmission. Most automatic sports cars don't have that feature, and some even offer 'launch control', but a lot of the main-stream ones do. Again, you absolutely do NOT need to do that on a normal vehicle, and have never tried brake-torquing on one. But if it's that important to somebody, try it when test-driving a new car.

Evening JCtx

 

Maybe you don't use brake torquing but a LOT of us do, these newer small turbo engines  launch a lot faster if they are into the boost BEFORE launch. 

 

I use brake torque almost every time I go to town in my wife's turbo SUV as I need to make a left hand turn then get over 3 lanes to make a quick right. No one  seems to like to allow a vehicle in so I just hit the all wheel drive button,  then bring the boost up, then when the light turns green, like shot, I am out in front & zip over the 3 lanes & off to see the wizard.  

 

So don't say people don't do that, or don't need to do that, (I NEED TO DO THAT OFTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) 

 

 

[JCtx]

34 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Then why is it defeated from the factory on police bikes?

Probably for the same reason they don't wear full protective gear (including full-face helmets). My guess is reliability of both cop and motorcycle is probably more important than all-out safety (less crap to go wrong). But ask a police department if you want.

[JCtx]

21 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Do don't say people don't do that, or don't need to do that, (I NEED TO DO THAT OFTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) 

No offense, but you seem to ride and drive like a maniac. Ha ha. You're probably 1 in 1,000 (or maybe more). There will always be people like you, but that's the exception, not the norm. To do crap like that, you need a high-stall torque converter man, which no street vehicle has. Vehicle manufacturers will never cater to those extremes. You can wear out a vehicle in short order doing stuff like that. And what the heck does this have anything to do with the original subject? Guess some egos just can't admit they're not doing everything perfectly.

 

Anyway, this thread turned to crap, so I'm out of here. Hope you crazy dudes don't end up crashing. At least I tried to reason with you to change your ways. Good luck.

[dirtrider]

45 minutes ago, JCtx said:

No offense, but you seem to ride and drive like a maniac. Ha ha. You're probably 1 in 1,000 (or maybe more). There will always be people like you, but that's the exception, not the norm. To do crap like that, you need a high-stall torque converter man, which no street vehicle has. Vehicle manufacturers will never cater to those extremes. You wear out a vehicle in short order doing stuff like that.

 

Anyway, this thread turned to crap, so I'm out. Ride safe.

Evening JCtx

 

No offense, but you seem to ride and drive like a maniac. -- No not a maniac, a controlled dedicated rider. I Ride & drive HARD but always under control. Come ride off road with me sometime, 95 mph on  dirt or gravel road will make you take notice. 

 

You're probably 1 in 1,000 (or maybe more).-- Not in my area, there a lot of drivers that drive like me & a lot of riders that ride like me. Some don't have the vehicle control they should have but it doesn't stop them. 

 

There will always be people like you, but that's the exception, not the norm.-- No not the exception, not the main stream but definitely not an outlier.  

 

To do crap like that, you need a high-stall torque converter man, which no street vehicle has. Vehicle manufacturers will never cater to those extremes.-- Obviously not, as I do it often with a stock trans & stock converter  without any problems. As for  Vehicle manufacturers will never cater to those extremes.-- Maybe not be we sure do test for it before releasing a vehicle model for sale. (you ever seen a purple torque converter from heat?) I have a number of times (not on my personal vehicle but on our test vehicles) 

 

You wear out a vehicle in short order doing stuff like that.-- I don't seem to wear things out but I do go through tires fairly quickly on my motorcycles & personal vehicles. Doesn't matter anyhow I get my wife a new vehicle every year & pretty well ride everywhere that I can.   Pass the pile of tires please!

 

We all have out own idea of a maniac, to me entering a 35 mph curve at 70 mph is not even worth talking about (but it does take a precise line & good braking/throttle control skills)

 

To me personally I kind of rate this (link below) as "almost" a maniac (at least on a road with not a lot of side visibility past the ditches & trees). I would imagine his braking distance is measured in kilometers not in feet.  

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1ic1NHhQCs

 

   

[Hosstage]

2 hours ago, JCtx said:

But ask a police department if you want.

Not needed. They do it because it creates an unsafe condition for them.

[9Mary7]

8 hours ago, bimmers said:

How is it of you are trail braking with only rear brake? Even in a parking lot this could result in a dropping of the bike, just sayin........

 

 

There are certain times and situations........Ran into a couple last week at F.A.R.T.............

[9Mary7]

2 hours ago, JCtx said:

Guess some egos just can't admit they're not doing everything perfectly.

 

Anyway, this thread turned to crap, so I'm out of here.

Maybe not hi-jacking a thread to tell the OP(and the rest of us) he's doing it wrong would keep it from going too brown for you......

[profbodryak]

On 9/27/2023 at 8:23 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning   profbodryak

 

ANY way you look at it the system as you describe it is very dangerous. At least for aggressive riders as there are many many occasions that I use both the throttle & braking at the same time. 

 

I ride late apex with late braking so most of the time pick the throttle back up prior to fully releasing the braking as that keeps the drivetrain & suspension loaded going into the late lean-in. 

 

If I had a throttle lag right at the point I positively NEEDED to pick the throttle up but was still trailing the braking into the apex I could easily slide over the fog line & onto gravel (or worse into the trees). 

 

Defeating this system would HAVE to be a top priority for me personally to ride that motorcycle. 

 

If the throttle system is that brain-dead then WHAT THE HECK was BMW thinking when they released that motorcycle to the public???  That system could kill an aggressive rider in a nano second. 

 

 

I 100% agree on this being a major safety concern. Many people will say that there's too much electronics involved in vehicles these days. Personally, I think that there's at least gotta be a limit to where electronics makes a decision for you and there should be a possibility of disabling some of those features. My girlfriend has a 330i with all these drive assist features that I turn off every time I drive it.

[profbodryak]

16 hours ago, JCtx said:

There's no justifiable reason to be braking and accelerating at the same time; it's NOT a proper riding technique. Just like drifting is not a proper driving technique either. Neither one makes you quicker at the track. Oh, and you can absolutely use brake and throttle at the same time with the clutch pulled in, like if you're taking off on an incline (and not using 'hill assist'). BMW has very talented test riders that are WAAAAY better than all of us; they don't do safety features half a$$, for what I've seen. So if one of the safety features is activated, you're most likely doing something wrong. They take into account all possible scenarios, and allow for the valid exceptions. So I don't buy for a minute the scenarios stated above, but that's just me, a moderately aggressive and smooth/cautious rider, more the type of Casey Stoner, instead of the crazy aggressive kind, like Valentino Rossi and Mark Marquez (and the above guys, I guess. Ha ha). But nothing wrong with any kind. I'm definitely taking way more risks than the more cautious riders here than never drag a peg, but unfortunately, that's not fun for me. However, I only ride mountain roads on weekdays, with zero traffic, so I'm probably taking less risks than commuters. Or about the same. I'm 61, so don't have that many years left of riding like that, but we'll see. I'm in excellent physical shape for riding, but have incurable cancer, so anything can happen to my body at any time after almost 9 years of chemos, and now a powerful daily ($700/pill) drug.

 

Anyway, the RT is not a race bike, so this argument sounds a little ridiculous to me on that bike; the great majority of RT riders will never touch a peg, so the safety systems are even more important than for more aggressive riders IMO. Heck, I don't have any issues with them, and I ride my bike to its limits... but in a 'safe' manner. And I put it in quotes because I know I'm taking risks just to be riding, let alone cornering aggressively, even with no traffic. I consider myself an above-average rider, but I also realize the value of rider aids (even pros make mistakes -and crash- all the time), so never turn them off. And if I need to change my riding habits to be faster/smoother/safer, of course that's exactly what I do (rather than disable them, to keep doing things the wrong way. Or pretending I'm better than I am), so I can enjoy this sport as long as possible, with the safety net of the nannies in place; that's why I sold my MT-10 and bought the R. The day I cannot SAFELY ride my bike aggressively in the twisties, that's the day I'll sell it. I don't like touring, commuting, or be on the bike if not having fun (or on the way to have fun). And there's no fun place to ride where I live less than 200 miles away, so the bike sits in my garage most of the time, except for the few trips a year I can make.

 

Finally, MANY vehicles don't allow you to brake and accelerate at the same time (brake-torque) to protect the transmission. Most automatic sports cars don't have that feature, and some even offer 'launch control', but a lot of the main-stream ones do. Again, you absolutely do NOT need to do that on a normal vehicle, and have never tried brake-torquing on one. But if it's that important to somebody, try it when test-driving a new car.

 

I commute every day all year round as I mentioned before and I don't take it to the race track, so my driving style is going to be completely different from yours. Not sure how else to explain to you that when this issue occurs, there is no simultaneous application of brakes and opening of the throttle.

[Toter]

The dynamic brake control is only activated by an emergency braking situation. This is defined as a quick, forceful activation of the front brake lever. If below emergency level threshold,  but still high braking pressure,  DBC will increase the rear wheel braking integration, to shorten braking distance. During either of these situations,  if >5% throttle is applied, DBC will ignore throttle application to ensure the braking event takes place. The only way the throttle input is ignored is when it happens during a forceful braking event. Trail braking into a corner and throttle application is not a qualifying event. Sounds to me like you are braking pretty forcefully, and jumping on throttle while the braking event is still happening,  causing the throttle to be ignored. I would deem it an improper riding technique that is caused by the original poster. Solution: Don't do that. Might end up saving your life, especially if you are making it occur on a brake hard, hammer it, and sudden lane change maneuver. Not a sustainable riding practice.

[Toter]

On 9/27/2023 at 4:49 PM, Hosstage said:

Then why is it defeated from the factory on police bikes?

Edit: this in response to JCtx post.

Who knows? Maybe it impedes their ability to do their skill training courses and competitions.

[Hosstage]

2 minutes ago, Toter said:

Who knows? Maybe it impedes their ability to do their skill training courses and competitions.

As well as in daily riding. Which begs the question, why would it be acceptable for citizen bikes?

[Toter]

1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

As well as in daily riding. Which begs the question, why would it be acceptable for citizen bikes?

If you read the manual. It makes sense as a safety feature. It's only an issue when improper riding techniques are employed.

[Hosstage]

1 minute ago, Toter said:

If you read the manual. It makes sense as a safety feature. It's only an issue when improper riding techniques are employed.

So the coppers use improper riding techniques?

[Hosstage]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:28 AM, profbodryak said:

there is no simultaneous application of brakes and opening of the throttle.

 

For Toter,

It seems not to be a safety issue, but a programming issue.

[Toter]

1 minute ago, Hosstage said:

 

For Toter,

It seems not to be a safety issue, but a programming issue.

Well, that's what he says, but, if that were the case, it wouldn't ignore the throttle input. Never happens on my bike. But then, I don't brake heavily up to a stop sign, then gas it to jump across traffic.  I also don't brake heavily coming up behind a slowing lane,  then hammer it to make a quick lane change. His actions are causing the problem not the programming, or it would be a huge issue in the forums. 

[Hosstage]

8 minutes ago, Toter said:

Well, that's what he says, but, if that were the case, it wouldn't ignore the throttle input. Never happens on my bike. But then, I don't brake heavily up to a stop sign, then gas it to jump across traffic.  I also don't brake heavily coming up behind a slowing lane,  then hammer it to make a quick lane change. His actions are causing the problem not the programming, or it would be a huge issue in the forums. 

Or, it could just be that his motorcycle is not working right.

 

I do all those things you say you don't, rush up to a stop, hammer the brakes, and launch immediately, I've not had my motorcycle stall or cough. It is not normal, and if it is a safety feature, it seems dangerous if it is putting a rider in a dangerous situation, whether normal riding or not.

[profbodryak]

I am not going to point fingers on here but some people have this unique trait of attempting to teach others/blame the OP when it is completely unnecessary. Improper computer programming is when you don't have power to get out of a situation when something is coming at you. Having power is probably more essential than a mechanism that prevents panic throttle application when you are almost at a standstill. Feel the difference between the two?

 

If not, then watch the video below. Note how I am not even using the front brakes with a subsequent delay after I open the throttle. Does this look like emergency braking to anyone???

[profbodryak]

[Skywagon]

20 hours ago, Hosstage said:

his motorcycle is not working right.

 

I feel for you profbodryak... I know kind of drastic, but think I would take it back to the dealer show room and tell them to call me when it's fixed and loan me a bike until it is.  If not...might be time to get legal help.  Good luck...it's not right.

[Hosstage]

40 minutes ago, profbodryak said:

Watching that video, unacceptable. 

I agree with your assessment of laying blame. If you've been riding for years and not had such an issue before, to have the stall you are experiencing now is not user error. If it working as designed, the design sucks.

[Toter]

Doesn't even look like you used the front brake, but hard to tell. This does not look like it should activate DBC. It does appear you are rolling back into throttle while still stopping, but the braking does not appear emergency, or forceful as described in manual. I will have to try to get my 21 GS to do this.

[profbodryak]

38 minutes ago, Toter said:

Doesn't even look like you used the front brake, but hard to tell. This does not look like it should activate DBC. It does appear you are rolling back into throttle while still stopping, but the braking does not appear emergency, or forceful as described in manual. I will have to try to get my 21 GS to do this.

Correct, no front brakes applied and I'd be curious to see if you can do this to a GS as it has different ride mode settings.