Motorcycle feels sluggish at low RPM

[profbodryak]

On 8/20/2023 at 5:52 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning  profbodryak

 

But if the twist grip has a dip in it's output signal, wouldn't it then happen in all situations?--- That could depend on the situation. If you roll the throttle on just enough to pass the problem area then you probably wouldn't notice it, if you roll the throttle on just far enough to hit that dip then you would definitely notice it. In normal riding you might quickly pass right through a dip without noticing anything. 

 

I have seen this in TPS signals (we call it a hole in the signal) so it could happen to a twist grip output. Something like this should show up in GS-911 trapped data with the throttle position signal going flat or even dipping against other sensor data showing something different.   

 

Typically if a hardware issue then those are there almost all the time (not just on certain launches), it's those pesky firmware issues that are difficult to define & find. 

 

If things get too far out of expected then you would think that it would set a fault code, something like a quick open or quick short from the twist grip should definitely trap a fault   (so assuming your dealer checked for that then something like this doesn't seem likely)

 

You probably need to get your dealer more involved, & even get a BMW field rep involved.  Keep insisting it is a safety issue with loss of acceleration pulling into traffic & turning across on-coming traffic. Keep pestering them on the safety aspect as that draws way more concern than "I don't like it doing what it is doing". If they say it is normal then get that in writing, tell them you need that for future legal if you get hit making a turn or pulling into traffic. 

 

If they don't see your concern then tell them you are afraid to ride it as it is now & have them trailer it back to the dealer under warranty. If they have to haul it in a couple of times that usually gets their attention. 

 

A simple inconvenience or dislike seldom draws dealer or BMW concern. But typically safety issues get their attention. If it were me I would keep after your dealer until they get you an answer or make it right. 

 

The dealer just looked at it, worked on it, if it STILL isn't right then get right back to them & tell them it isn't repaired, is still acting up & is dangerous to ride in traffic.  

 

 

 

Thank you dirtrider. I agree on this being a safety issue. I must say that there hasn't been a time that Morton's BMW wouldn't make it right for me so I believe that this time it will work out as well. Yesterday this occurred when I was making a u-turn. I am close to having put 500 miles on it as instructed and the issue still persists of course, so I will be getting in touch with the dealer this week.

[profbodryak]

On 8/20/2023 at 12:32 PM, bimmers said:

Ok,

i have experienced the same a couple of times when taking off at traffic light change. I have just translated it into it requiring a little more gas (twist) but I could compare it to a stick shift 4 cylinder non turbo behavior compared to a 8 cylinder one. There it is a question of torque and clutch slip when starting. So don't let the clutch out so fast and you can smoothen the take off.

When changing lanes at 0 speed you still deal with same issue letting clutch go at too low rpms. The responsiveness of gas ie twist of handle is phenomenal compared to the 1200's i have and had. 

Since I ride both 1250 and 1200 RTs I have to be conscious about the differences in behavior wihich is massive. 

So I think it is "normal" and maybe not as on other bikes but one can get used to it and goosing it a little more. I may change my opinion after I drop it once so i am a realist but for now  I'm fine.

 

H

 

bimmers, agree on everything however I have no problem taking off from a stop light. It only happens when I slow down almost to a complete stop and then decide to take off again. Having come from riding three liquid cooled 1200RT's, this has never been an issue. There is a complete lack of response for almost 2 seconds.

[profbodryak]

20 hours ago, JCtx said:

Something that was never mentioned to the OP, a shaft-driven bike (and one with a single-sided swing-arm at that) besides being heavier, also has more friction on its drive-train than chain-drive. So you can expect a little lazier launching vs a lighter chain-driven bike. But yes, gearing plays a big part on that too. Having said that, my R1250R has exceptional torque, and have had zero issues with take-offs. But if you want to take off fast, you obviously need to get the revs a lot higher than a lazy take-off, which is what I do most of the time. Once you have the clutch fully out, you can apply throttle, and the bike responds immediately, and forcefully. And my new R is much smoother at lower rpm than my ex-2014 RT was. And it's nice not to have tingling hands (and feet) from my ex-4 cylinder bikes anymore:).

 

JCtx, wondering if your R has different engine settings/algorithm. But this issue only happens after slowing down to an almost complete stop and then trying to take off. If I am just sitting at a stop light, then the take off is instantaneous.

[bimmers]

 I have not noticed that there would be a lag like a turbo lag I have on my Diesel. I may have noticed something when taking off from driveway when slowing down and then moving on 

Will try to check that on my next ride. It has not bothered me so that I would have reacted to it else than now after hearing this maybe it is weird. 

 

Will keep you posted of my finding.

 

H

[Hosstage]

My work van does something similar, if I brake to almost a full stop for a right turn, then let off the brake to go, the van falls on its face for a second. Doesn't happen if I stop completely, doesn't happen on left turns as far as I have found. It is not normal.

Two seconds of dead throttle is not normal on your motorcycle. Old days, carb cough or such was common, but efi should have no such problems.

[bimmers]

Went out to try th hesitating turn, start at light etc. I cannot detect anything else than a dead spot at the beginning of the throttle. It is not a "hesitancy" it is just that throttle is at zero for a few degrees of turning the handle/grip. Immediately after that dead spot the throttle is always on without any hesitancy. 

After this discussion I will of course pay more attention  to this phenomenon if there is one.

 

H

 

[dirtrider]

47 minutes ago, bimmers said:

Went out to try th hesitating turn, start at light etc. I cannot detect anything else than a dead spot at the beginning of the throttle. It is not a "hesitancy" it is just that throttle is at zero for a few degrees of turning the handle/grip. Immediately after that dead spot the throttle is always on without any hesitancy. 

After this discussion I will of course pay more attention  to this phenomenon if there is one.

 

H

 

Evening bimmers

 

I would sure like to see throttle graph data on your problem to see if it is a twist grip output deal or if the computer is getting a good clean throttle input signal but reacting slowly.   

[Hati]

8 hours ago, dirtrider said:

I would sure like to see throttle graph data on your problem

 

Yeah, me too. @bimmers any chance you can borrow a 911 device? You can use that to data log while on the move and look at various inputs, including the throttle position.

[bimmers]

I might buy a 911 for myself but i obviously need two plugs one for the 06 and one for the 21. Need to familiarize myself a little with the entire thing as I so far have only used a Carly and a regular OBD reader on the cars. Never logged output signals to chart them.

Anyway in my case the issue in itself seems mute as it doesn't bother me. 

 

Maybe the OP can check the graphs at his end. 

 

h

[dirtrider]

47 minutes ago, bimmers said:

I might buy a 911 for myself but i obviously need two plugs one for the 06 and one for the 21. Need to familiarize myself a little with the entire thing as I so far have only used a Carly and a regular OBD reader on the cars. Never logged output signals to chart them.

Anyway in my case the issue in itself seems mute as it doesn't bother me. 

 

Maybe the OP can check the graphs at his end. 

 

h

Morning Bimmers

 

The GS-911 to get is the WIFI (OBD-II) version, that will work great on the newer (OBD-II) bikes, then just get a OBD to 10 Pin Female Adapter to allow the  (OBD-II) version to work on the older 10 pin bikes. The   OBD to 10 Pin Female adapter cable is about $30.00 from HexCode but there are cheaper ones available & most work just fine.

 

 

I have a short Hex Code OBD to 10 Pin Female adapter cable that I use for most (general) & service work on older bikes but also have a longer 30" adapter cable that I re-worked the 10 pin end so I can use it with seat re-installed & the GS-911 remotely placed so I can trap system data while riding the motorcycle (this works great for some of those odd or difficult to find issues that only show up while riding the motorcycle).

 

If you want to trap data while riding (without a laptop & other associated problems)   then you need the GS-911 with internal data storage ability  (like the  WIFI (OBD-II) version) the GS-911 can be programed to turn itself off after a set time-out after key-off then it comes back on-line at next key-on & starts trapping data again (this is great feature as it can stay connected for a few days & many trips so it can trap data long enough to trap an intermittent or an (occasional occurring) issue).  

   

[Skywagon]

Bimmers....If you have a local BMW club, they likely have a GS 911 you can use.  We have one in Houston that is passed around and is brought to the monthly meetings.

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

Bimmers....If you have a local BMW club, they likely have a GS 911 you can use.  We have one in Houston that is passed around and is brought to the monthly meetings.

Morning David

 

That is good for service reminder resets & a quick look for stored fault codes, & a general look-see, & some quick system tests but on things like long term riding data trapping the user needs to be pretty darn savvy & be very familiar with the set-up & settings to use it effectively (that usually takes owning one & using it frequently)   

 

 

[bimmers]

Got more curious about the throttle response so checked with bike standing still

1) in Neutral the response is immediate no free play before reaction

2) in gear same thing 

3) Feel of throttle when motor off is also solid, no play at the beginning

 

so my inclination is that it is more a feel than reality that there would be a delay but i also most of the time pull the clutch in if I am close to standing still even if I then go on. This may mitigate any "bigger" delay as well. 

 

I'm not going to do anything with this now except being a little more observant when riding.

 

H

[JCtx]

On 8/21/2023 at 11:06 AM, profbodryak said:

 

JCtx, wondering if your R has different engine settings/algorithm. But this issue only happens after slowing down to an almost complete stop and then trying to take off.

I see what you're saying. You know, it might be an intentional ECU torque-limiting delay, to avoid possible damage to the gears, depending what you're doing. I'm sure I've done what you're describing, and don't recall any issues. But I'm always very smooth with the throttle, and always in gear, so maybe that has something to do with it. So please describe VERY specifically what exactly you're doing that is causing the delay, and we can either try it (and tell you if it's normal or not), or immediately tell you that's a no-no. For example, tell us if you're coasting in 2nd gear, and down to, let's say, 20 mph, then you get back on the throttle... and how sudden/hard. Or if you had the clutch pulled in, I can tell you right now that's your problem. The clutch should only be disengaged when almost at zero mph, and to change gears; that's it. And finally, I can also tell you since your bike responds immediately to the tests you made, there's nothing wrong with it. So give us the details, and we'll solve your issue quickly. Ha ha. You might have to make a few riding style changes.

[profbodryak]

19 hours ago, JCtx said:

I see what you're saying. You know, it might be an intentional ECU torque-limiting delay, to avoid possible damage to the gears, depending what you're doing. I'm sure I've done what you're describing, and don't recall any issues. But I'm always very smooth with the throttle, and always in gear, so maybe that has something to do with it. So please describe VERY specifically what exactly you're doing that is causing the delay, and we can either try it (and tell you if it's normal or not), or immediately tell you that's a no-no. For example, tell us if you're coasting in 2nd gear, and down to, let's say, 20 mph, then you get back on the throttle... and how sudden/hard. Or if you had the clutch pulled in, I can tell you right now that's your problem. The clutch should only be disengaged when almost at zero mph, and to change gears; that's it. And finally, I can also tell you since your bike responds immediately to the tests you made, there's nothing wrong with it. So give us the details, and we'll solve your issue quickly. Ha ha. You might have to make a few riding style changes.

JCtx, I wish that it was that simple and (for that matter) that I was a beginner rider, then I could certainly blame myself. Think of it in the following way: as you are slowing down, you downshift to the first gear and as you are in the first gear you slow down to let's say about 8-10 mph. At that time you pull in the clutch. By now you are at about 2-3 mph but due to circumstances you need to accelerate. The time in which this change takes place is a second or two, not more than that. So essentially, you are trying to quickly change the deceleration from close to none to acceleration again. Within the first 1-2 seconds of opening the throttle (let's say 25%), there's no reaction. Once that small interval passes, the rpms are increased. Of note is that this change of momentum is close to instantaneous. Also of note is that none of my previous RT's of other generations did anything even remotely similar. 

 

I need to borrow my friend's camera or use my gopro to record this and post on here. I'll try to do it this Sunday for everyone to see. 

[Hosstage]

Definitely unacceptable and dangerous.

[JCtx]

On 8/25/2023 at 5:26 PM, profbodryak said:

you downshift to the first gear and as you are in the first gear you slow down to let's say about 8-10 mph. At that time you pull in the clutch. Within the first 1-2 seconds of opening the throttle (let's say 25%), there's no reaction.

Hey, first of all, never thought you were a rookie, or anything like that. It's simply that all of us may have (or have had) some 'bad' habits (like riding with boots under gearshift lever/rear brake pedal during cornering, etc), that until others point it out, we might not notice them (or we learn the hard way. Ha ha). Or simply try to change our riding style a little to be safer (like always covering clutch and brake), or to accommodate quirks our bikes have, which might be the case here. So please don't take offense; it wasn't my intention at all:). And please accept my apology if I offended you.

Going back to your explanation, you failed to detail what exactly you're doing with the clutch and throttle when taking off, and THAT is precisely where the issue is. But there's another very important piece of information missing: What exactly are you doing? If you're merging a high-speed street at 90-deg, you might be activating traction control, and the same thing would happen on a car, especially RWD. You cannot get hard on the throttle while turning at the same time. In those instances, it's better to point the bike as straight as possible, and actually stop first, to make sure the front vehicle is gone. And that you can accelerate quickly almost at a straight angle. But please explain your situation first. And then explain what exactly you're doing with the clutch and rpm while trying to take off and experiencing the hesitation. Just trying to help:). Take care.

[profbodryak]

On 9/4/2023 at 6:26 PM, JCtx said:

Hey, first of all, never thought you were a rookie, or anything like that. It's simply that all of us may have (or have had) some 'bad' habits (like riding with boots under gearshift lever/rear brake pedal during cornering, etc), that until others point it out, we might not notice them (or we learn the hard way. Ha ha). Or simply try to change our riding style a little to be safer (like always covering clutch and brake), or to accommodate quirks our bikes have, which might be the case here. So please don't take offense; it wasn't my intention at all:). And please accept my apology if I offended you.

Going back to your explanation, you failed to detail what exactly you're doing with the clutch and throttle when taking off, and THAT is precisely where the issue is. But there's another very important piece of information missing: What exactly are you doing? If you're merging a high-speed street at 90-deg, you might be activating traction control, and the same thing would happen on a car, especially RWD. You cannot get hard on the throttle while turning at the same time. In those instances, it's better to point the bike as straight as possible, and actually stop first, to make sure the front vehicle is gone. And that you can accelerate quickly almost at a straight angle. But please explain your situation first. And then explain what exactly you're doing with the clutch and rpm while trying to take off and experiencing the hesitation. Just trying to help:). Take care.

 

JCtx, no offense taken at all and I didn't think that you were inferring that I am a rookie :) We are all here to exchange thoughts, ideas and experience!

 

So, for example, earlier today, I came to a complete stop at a stop sign. Clutch in all the way, rolled off the throttle and came to a complete stop. As I released the brakes, I started releasing the clutch and opening the throttle as I normally would to accelerate. This delay, before the RPM's begin to increase is very noticeable. Something tells me that I do this stop-and-go cycle at stop signs so quickly that the computer needs a bit of extra time to let the throttle increase because this happens so quickly and it is possible that it's either related to traction control or ABS. When it happened earlier today, I noticed a bit of pulsing on the rear pedal right before it happened. But this is just today, I don't normally notice the ABS pulsing when it happens. 

[Bernie]

2 hours ago, profbodryak said:

 

JCtx, no offense taken at all and I didn't think that you were inferring that I am a rookie :) We are all here to exchange thoughts, ideas and experience!

 

So, for example, earlier today, I came to a complete stop at a stop sign. Clutch in all the way, rolled off the throttle and came to a complete stop. As I released the brakes, I started releasing the clutch and opening the throttle as I normally would to accelerate. This delay, before the RPM's begin to increase is very noticeable. Something tells me that I do this stop-and-go cycle at stop signs so quickly that the computer needs a bit of extra time to let the throttle increase because this happens so quickly and it is possible that it's either related to traction control or ABS. When it happened earlier today, I noticed a bit of pulsing on the rear pedal right before it happened. But this is just today, I don't normally notice the ABS pulsing when it happens. 

Could it have anything to do with the Pro-Hill Stop feature? I am not very familiar with the newer version of this function. But on the older RT’s  it requires a lot of rpm’s to get it to release and normally causes the motor to stall for me. But I read that on the newer models, it will activate automatic if it detects a slight incline in the road.

[JCtx]

5 hours ago, profbodryak said:

I do this stop-and-go cycle at stop signs so quickly that the computer needs a bit of extra time to let the throttle increase because this happens so quickly and it is possible that it's either related to traction control or ABS.

It's entirely possible that's what happening, but why? May I ask you if your throttle responds instantly when blipping the throttle in N? If yes, then it's obviously something that is triggering the delay. If you're using a handful of throttle, I'd adjust my take-offs to use the minimum needed rpm for a smooth launch, then open the throttle more if needed once clutch is fully released. That also minimizes clutch wear. You could also temporarily turn off TC, and see if anything changes. But sounds to me that a simple change of launching technique should solve your problem. None of us seem to have the same issue, and your bike passed all tests, so it seems to be related to riding style.

 

3 hours ago, Bernie said:

Could it have anything to do with the Pro-Hill Stop feature?

That's a good question, but it only engages on up-hills, and I don't think that's the problem with our brother @Profbodryak... but he could confirm that, just in case. I'd be an easy fix. Ha ha. And newer bikes have the option of manual engagement (where I have mine), or auto. But the auto can catch you by surprise, which happened to me once, and I turned off immediately after that. Ha ha. And yes, it needs more throttle than I like to use to release, so I very seldom use it. I'm used to launching as mild as possible (yet smoothly), for least clutch wear. And you need more throttle than that, to release the auto hold without stalling the bike indeed.

[Skywagon]

I think is safe to say something is wrong with the Op’s bike. As long as he has been riding, I seriously doubt he doesn’t know how to feather a clutch

 

If auto hill start ( Bernie may be on to the cause if auto has some senor out of whack) and traction control turned off, then:

 

I would get back to the dealer, make the tech ride pillion, and make them fix your bike. 

[profbodryak]

21 hours ago, Bernie said:

Could it have anything to do with the Pro-Hill Stop feature? I am not very familiar with the newer version of this function. But on the older RT’s  it requires a lot of rpm’s to get it to release and normally causes the motor to stall for me. But I read that on the newer models, it will activate automatic if it detects a slight incline in the road.

Auto pro-hill feature is disabled. I used it quite a bit but in this situation I wouldn't even have enough time to actuate it.

[profbodryak]

11 hours ago, Skywagon said:

I think is safe to say something is wrong with the Op’s bike. As long as he has been riding, I seriously doubt he doesn’t know how to feather a clutch

 

If auto hill start ( Bernie may be on to the cause if auto has some senor out of whack) and traction control turned off, then:

 

I would get back to the dealer, make the tech ride pillion, and make them fix your bike. 

 

Got an appointment this Saturday first thing in the morning. I can't imagine that this would be my riding skills. Probably would have shown on my first liquid cooled RT. This is a first 1250RT for me though.

 

Something different happened yesterday. I decided to experiment a little and put it in neutral at about 15 miles an hour and then brought it to a complete stop and opened the throttle while in neutral. Same exact thing. It does start to feel that it may really be related to the ABS and when it's active, engine throttle is disabled temporarily. Possible? Not sure...

[Hati]

2 hours ago, profbodryak said:

It does start to feel that it may really be related to the ABS and when it's active, engine throttle is disabled temporarily. Possible? Not sure...

 

Please keep us updated. This is becoming the puzzle of the year. 

[JCtx]

3 hours ago, profbodryak said:

 

It does start to feel that it may really be related to the ABS and when it's active, engine throttle is disabled temporarily. Possible? Not sure...

If it's doing it in N, it's not going to be neither ABS, nor TC, since you weren't braking (were you?) or accelerating. The easiest test would be for you to ride another 1250RT, and see if it does it. But it's starting to sound like a possible throttle-by-wire issue to me. But you could also try staying in (1st) gear, without pulling the clutch lever, and see what happens. And calling what you might be doing part of your 'riding style' is probably the wrong way to describe it; it's simply something the bike doesn't like. The next step is to check if there's something wrong with your bike, or something you need to change. Good luck, and please keep us posted.

[profbodryak]

22 hours ago, JCtx said:

If it's doing it in N, it's not going to be neither ABS, nor TC, since you weren't braking (were you?) or accelerating. The easiest test would be for you to ride another 1250RT, and see if it does it. But it's starting to sound like a possible throttle-by-wire issue to me. But you could also try staying in (1st) gear, without pulling the clutch lever, and see what happens. And calling what you might be doing part of your 'riding style' is probably the wrong way to describe it; it's simply something the bike doesn't like. The next step is to check if there's something wrong with your bike, or something you need to change. Good luck, and please keep us posted.

I am breaking immediately before trying to accelerate. It could be the algorithm setting off throttle restriction as ABS was just activated. Feels like an intentional delay but I may be wrong. Will certainly test drive another 1250RT if there's one in the showroom this Saturday. Alternatively it could of course be the throttle by wire/handlebar issue but if that's the case then why is there always enough power under any other riding condition? 

[profbodryak]

23 hours ago, Hati said:

 

Please keep us updated. This is becoming the puzzle of the year. 

I am indeed puzzled myself 😀

[Hosstage]

Are you braking hard enough to activate the abs?

[profbodryak]

While purposefully trying to reproduce this, definitely felt the vibration on the rear brake pedal a few times but not while riding normally. I must say that this only happens during a rather rapid change in momentum, from slowing down to trying to accelerate. 

[Hosstage]

It still sounds wrong, there should be no delay between rolling off and back on the throttle, or even slamming it shut and quickly twisting it back open, abs activation or not. It sounds like the old carb days with a bad accelerator pump.

[Skywagon]

Hosstage… you made me smile. I was thinking the same thing. I’ replaced countless accelerator pumps in GM carbs. I use to keep a spare with me. I think they were about $2.00 

Back to the OP. Bike should not have any delay ever especially with fly by wire. You may need to get BMWNA involved if dealer keeps punting. As DR Said a few post back, SAFETY ISSUE are key words. My experience with fly by wire in other (several) applications is they are super sensitive and super responsive, not less. 

[profbodryak]

I do agree with both of you and I do also think that this is a safety issue. Will post an update tomorrow afternoon!

[JCtx]

For me, it's becoming clear it's just something the bike doesn't like, which tells me you're not being as smooth as you can be. I'm always striving to ride smoother, but takes lots of focus and practice. Seems to me if you were doing that, you wouldn't have any trouble, so I wouldn't rule out being smoother. I see no reason for such a jerky transition. Also remember there's more free play on a shaft bike than a chain one, and you don't want to put a ton of torque instantly when the shaft changes from coasting to accelerating. But I think it's the aggressive braking that might be causing the delay. Even at the track, I never need to do such a thing; smoothness is what you want: Slowly releasing the brakes while slowly rolling on the throttle (and vice versa), even when the whole thing is actually done quickly. You never want abrupt changes because it unsettles the chassis. Pretend you're riding with a passenger (or riding with a cup of coffee), and never want to bang helmets (or spill coffee). Ask yourself if you'd bang helmets (or spill coffee) the way you're riding when your hesitation occurs. If the answer is yes, then you can probably eliminate that 'issue' by riding smoother. And/or simply don't put yourself in that situation, basically riding more defensively. Makes sense? I ride a little more aggressively than I should sometimes, but always defensively, and I can't remember ever having to do what you described. The only analogy I can think of is that you're braking really hard to stop at a traffic light, then realize you can make it (or not), and immediately gun it to make it out. We should NEVER put ourselves in a situation like that, period. Not saying you're doing that, but just that with safer riding behavior, we can eliminate a lot of hazardous situations needing aggressive (and potentially dangerous) maneuvers like that. It's not that you have a bad riding style, but you can always make it better, by being smoother, and safer. That's why I really enjoy both driving and riding; you never stop learning how to be smoother, how to read curves, better, etc. And yes, not driving or riding sport cars/bikes anymore, made me immediately a safer rider, since I feel more relaxed on a vehicle that I know doesn't belong on a track. Ha ha. And still ride quicker than I should in the twisties, but I follow the signature one of you guys have: 'Ride safely, but still fast enough to have fun', or something like that. Anyway, good luck, and let us know how it went.

[profbodryak]

13 hours ago, JCtx said:

For me, it's becoming clear it's just something the bike doesn't like, which tells me you're not being as smooth as you can be. I'm always striving to ride smoother, but takes lots of focus and practice. Seems to me if you were doing that, you wouldn't have any trouble, so I wouldn't rule out being smoother. I see no reason for such a jerky transition. Also remember there's more free play on a shaft bike than a chain one, and you don't want to put a ton of torque instantly when the shaft changes from coasting to accelerating. But I think it's the aggressive braking that might be causing the delay. Even at the track, I never need to do such a thing; smoothness is what you want: Slowly releasing the brakes while slowly rolling on the throttle (and vice versa), even when the whole thing is actually done quickly. You never want abrupt changes because it unsettles the chassis. Pretend you're riding with a passenger (or riding with a cup of coffee), and never want to bang helmets (or spill coffee). Ask yourself if you'd bang helmets (or spill coffee) the way you're riding when your hesitation occurs. If the answer is yes, then you can probably eliminate that 'issue' by riding smoother. And/or simply don't put yourself in that situation, basically riding more defensively. Makes sense? I ride a little more aggressively than I should sometimes, but always defensively, and I can't remember ever having to do what you described. The only analogy I can think of is that you're braking really hard to stop at a traffic light, then realize you can make it (or not), and immediately gun it to make it out. We should NEVER put ourselves in a situation like that, period. Not saying you're doing that, but just that with safer riding behavior, we can eliminate a lot of hazardous situations needing aggressive (and potentially dangerous) maneuvers like that. It's not that you have a bad riding style, but you can always make it better, by being smoother, and safer. That's why I really enjoy both driving and riding; you never stop learning how to be smoother, how to read curves, better, etc. And yes, not driving or riding sport cars/bikes anymore, made me immediately a safer rider, since I feel more relaxed on a vehicle that I know doesn't belong on a track. Ha ha. And still ride quicker than I should in the twisties, but I follow the signature one of you guys have: 'Ride safely, but still fast enough to have fun', or something like that. Anyway, good luck, and let us know how it went.

 

JCtx, there are at least as many riding styles as there are riders. I have brought so many coffees home in a top case rack, where a small cup fits just perfectly and can do so without spilling it every time. My driving is not aggressive but rather active. I do not sit at a stop sign or a stop light more than I need to, so when my path is clear, I will take off immediately. Possibly, partly because of my personality of wanting to get things done faster and a busy lifestyle with two jobs in a hospital, studying for the mcats and many other responsibilities, I want to get home quickly. Weekend rides is a different story but I commute on my RT every day all year-round and have done this for 11 years. But I have never had this issue, even on two of the previously owned 1150RT's that very notably had a lot less torque.

[profbodryak]

Update: went to Morton's BMW this morning. They were as always on top of their game - the mechanic took the RT on a test ride first thing and was able to reproduce the issue. This was escalated to BMW and the response was a request to record a video of when the symptom occurs. Because of the timing and what could potentially follow as a resolution, I returned home with a loaner RT and I am scheduled to return next Saturday. BMW's preliminary response was that it may be related to the cams. There are no other details at this time and I will know more next week.

[Bernie]

How is the loaner? Same model year?

[profbodryak]

It's a 15 RT in ebony black metallic. Interesting you asked, Bernie, because it feels that it has more pick up from a start. Now I am really wondering what may be wrong with my RT or maybe it's just more output on lower-end RPMs on 1200 LC boxer engines?

[Bernie]

I read somewhere last week that there was a problem with the damson (camshaft) the 1250 motors. I think it had something to do with the bolt and washer that is holding on the sprocket to the cam shaft. BMW did an update and changed to a different bolt design to eliminate this problem. Maybe your bike has something similar going on. Well at least it acted up at the dealer and you have a very good dealer. Hopefully they get it figured out. I don’t think this is a common problem with the 1250 and I also think the 1250 has more torque then the 1200, through out the rpm range. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Bernie
Typo Camshaft

[profbodryak]

6 minutes ago, Bernie said:

I read somewhere last week that there was a problem with the damson the 1250 motors. I think it had something to do with the bolt and washer that is holding on the sprocket to the cam shaft. BMW did an update and changed to a different bolt design to eliminate this problem. Maybe your bike has something similar going on. Well at least it acted up at the dealer and you have a very good dealer. Hopefully they get it figured out. I don’t think this is a common problem with the 1250 and I also think the 1250 has more torque then the 1200, through out the rpm range. 

 

Really hope you are right and that they can get this figured out. What is a damson?

[Bernie]

22 minutes ago, profbodryak said:

 

What is a damson?

Sorry a typo. Camshaft

[profbodryak]

Ah ok, thank you. I think I found the article you read. My issue never threw the check engine light but who knows.

 

https://forums.bmwmoa.org/showthread.php?104687-2019-R1250RT-with-DTC-P2614-(3A1B62)-Solved&p=1310561

[Bernie]

Yes, that is it. Maybe yours is halfway between good and bad, if there is such a thing. Looks like the ol bolt design can provide some play between the camshaft and the sprocket.  

[MikeB60]

4 hours ago, profbodryak said:

It's a 15 RT in ebony black metallic. Interesting you asked, Bernie, because it feels that it has more pick up from a start. Now I am really wondering what may be wrong with my RT or maybe it's just more output on lower-end RPMs on 1200 LC boxer engines?

I've owned both definitely not more output on the 1200 vs 1250.

[JCtx]

The good news is a tech noticed something not quite right, so that was a start. But wish you had a chance to test-ride a shift-cam there (preferably a '23, like yours), or at least got one as a loaner (2019+, I think), so you could compare it to yours. Oh well. Anyway, I owned a '14 RT, and even though my current '20 R is not exactly the same, the 1250 motor feels immensely better in every respect; much more than the paltry extra 50cc suggest. Hey, you're a brave man to commute on a bike (ha ha); I just ride for the twisties, so bike sits in my garage for weeks or months. But I get what you said. You're probably riding less aggressively than I interpreted, and if not riding at the threshold of ABS/TC activation, there's no reason for your bike not to take off without delay. Did you try not using the clutch (in 1st), and see what happened? Curious if using the clutch is part of the problem or not. I expect problems with a new engine the first year or two, but not freaking 5 years later. Oh well. Best of luck, and keep us posted.

[profbodryak]

18 hours ago, JCtx said:

The good news is a tech noticed something not quite right, so that was a start. But wish you had a chance to test-ride a shift-cam there (preferably a '23, like yours), or at least got one as a loaner (2019+, I think), so you could compare it to yours. Oh well. Anyway, I owned a '14 RT, and even though my current '20 R is not exactly the same, the 1250 motor feels immensely better in every respect; much more than the paltry extra 50cc suggest. Hey, you're a brave man to commute on a bike (ha ha); I just ride for the twisties, so bike sits in my garage for weeks or months. But I get what you said. You're probably riding less aggressively than I interpreted, and if not riding at the threshold of ABS/TC activation, there's no reason for your bike not to take off without delay. Did you try not using the clutch (in 1st), and see what happened? Curious if using the clutch is part of the problem or not. I expect problems with a new engine the first year or two, but not freaking 5 years later. Oh well. Best of luck, and keep us posted.

 

I actually tried it in neutral and it does the same exact thing. So stopping and then immediately opening the throttle produces no power for the first couple of seconds. Interestingly enough, the RPMs are right at idle before they eventually increase. 

[JCtx]

Seems like an issue with the throttle-by-wire, but it could also be an engine sensor, or even something else. With so much electronics, you never know. If a tech can duplicate the issue with a data-logger hooked to your bike, he should be able to see what's triggering the delay. Hopefully something easy to fix. Please keep us posted. I'm really curious what it could be. Take care.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, profbodryak said:

 

I actually tried it in neutral and it does the same exact thing. So stopping and then immediately opening the throttle produces no power for the first couple of seconds. Interestingly enough, the RPMs are right at idle before they eventually increase. 

Afternoon  profbodryak

 

Did the dealer do a throttle value reset? They should have with a complaint like yours. 

 

In any case without a GS-911 (and expertise to use it for engine data value comparison) then you are at the mercy of your dealer & BMW involvement.

 

You need to get your dealer more involved or they will just dust you off again. This might take getting BMW or the BMW  rep to take interest in your problem. 

 

That delay in throttle response from idle is not right & needs to be found & repaired. 

 

You need to do something to get your dealer seriously involved (whatever that takes).  

 

You are probably not going to find this by guessing so it needs an interested technician with diagnostic equipment, experience, time, & a reason to solve it. 

 

You need to KEEP hitting your dealer with this heavily impressing on them that it is a very dangerous problem & a BIG safety issue. 

 

Take it back a few times then if they don't take interest then go after the Lemon-Law side of it. If you have a couple of seconds of throttle delay THAT CAN GET YOU KILLED!

[profbodryak]

Hi dirtrider. Yes, certainly agree on a safety concern there. They seem to be willing to help me and I will keep at it as well. During my first visit with this issue, the throttle was reset but not sure if anything else was done. Lemon law would be the last resort and honestly I'd much rather keep the RT, hoping this issue would be resolved. But will know more this week. Will keep posting updates when I know more. 

[profbodryak]

6 hours ago, JCtx said:

Seems like an issue with the throttle-by-wire, but it could also be an engine sensor, or even something else. With so much electronics, you never know. If a tech can duplicate the issue with a data-logger hooked to your bike, he should be able to see what's triggering the delay. Hopefully something easy to fix. Please keep us posted. I'm really curious what it could be. Take care.

 

Thanks JCtx. Will certainly close the loop as to what this turns out to be. Take care.

[profbodryak]

The first finding (no results of a test drive just yet) is that all 4 cams were out of timing from the factory. Both intake ones were off to where the cam timing tool wouldn't fit over them. Exhaust ones are also out of timing but not as bad as the intake ones.