Motorcycle feels sluggish at low RPM

[kon]

Hello friends. I just purchased a 2020 BMW R1250GS. It has 9000miles. I switched from Kawasaki Z900RS to the BMW R1250GS. I love the suspension, but the bike feels kind of sluggish at low RPM and from a dead stop. When I hit 4500 RPM then it is like a different bike. I can go over 90 miles in no time. Is this behavior normal? If it isn’t what could be a possible reason for it?

Thank you in advance.

Kon

[Steveyacht]

There are a couple of explanations for the difference in acceleration between your Kawasaki and the BMW.  First, the MBW weighs about 150lbs more than the Kawasaki.  Second, the gearing is most likely quite different, the BMW being geared taller for better touring performance. However, I believe that the weight difference is the biggest culprit, particularly when accelerating from a dead stop.  "A body at rest tends to stay at rest", Newton's law applies here.

[kon]

Your explanation makes sense. I like the bike, it feels very comfortable at high speeds and I am getting used to the slow start. Thank you very much for your reply.

 

 

[lkraus]

Generally, a boxer twin wants to be above ~3200 rpm, especially if you are using third gear or higher.  Coming from a 650 four cylinder, it took me a while to get used to the idea of staying in the lower gears to keep the revs up.  Once I figured it out, the bike began to feel a lot more quick and nimble, and my gas mileage also improved.  Sixth gear is now reserved for 60-65+ freeway cruising, fifth for long flat straight stretches.  Third and fourth are for fun...

[Twisties]

One other thing, somewhere around 4000-4500 rpm, the cam is shifting into high performance mode, IIUC. 

 

The old hexheads had exceptionally poor low rpm torque, but the shiftcams are much better.  Still, the shiftcams do need some rpms.  I'm not sure they need to be above 3200 rpm, but I would definitely apply some throttle when taking off from a stop.  I've only had hexhead and shiftcam, so can't comment on the other iterations of the engine.  

[DakarTimm]

Good morning .

 A good friend brought over his Z900RS and we swapped for the day . My impression was similar to yours . I do believe the bikes were intended for very differant riders .

That low rev in lower gears on the boxers is what makes them so good and walking speeds . I am very comfortable manuevering in at low speeds in low gears . 

I've yet to ride a boxer that was even remotely quick off the line . Not without feeling I was being harsh or abusive anyway..

[kon]

I very much appreciate all replies and great information!!!

[profbodryak]

I must say that having switched over from a '15 to a '23 RT it is a huge difference both at low and high RPMs. Unfortunately, at very low RPM's it's a lot easier to stall. While it may not be the case by numbers, it feels that the shiftcam boxer engine runs at lower RPM's at idle. When you rev up the engine, it takes a longer turn of the throttle to actually get to the higher RPM to get it going. Does anyone else have this issue? Since it's throttle by wire, I am assuming it cannot be adjusted.

[kon]

Today, I had the opportunity to ride five different new BMW motorcycle at Kissel Motorsports - thank you for organizing this event Kissel Motorsports!!! I rode 2023 R1250GS and it felt exactly the same way as my bike. That made me feel good knowing that there isn’t anything wrong with my motorcycle. On the way to the dealership and back (total of 4 hours ride), I realized that the GS is the best, most comfortable bike I’ve ever owned. My Kawasaki would have killed my back in less than an hour of riding. With the GS, I felt great after 4 hours of riding plus another 55 miles riding different demo bikes.

Thanks everyone for posting your thoughts. 

[Hosstage]

3 hours ago, profbodryak said:

I must say that having switched over from a '15 to a '23 RT it is a huge difference both at low and high RPMs. Unfortunately, at very low RPM's it's a lot easier to stall. While it may not be the case by numbers, it feels that the shiftcam boxer engine runs at lower RPM's at idle. When you rev up the engine, it takes a longer turn of the throttle to actually get to the higher RPM to get it going. Does anyone else have this issue? Since it's throttle by wire, I am assuming it cannot be adjusted.

I know that the throttle by wire can be adjusted on Harleys, I would think that it can be done on the BMWs.

[Twisties]

IIRC, the throttle response is altered in the various riding modes, and can be set in Dynamic Pro.  What riding mode are you in?  For performance, I use Dynamic Pro.  

Also, FWIW, I find the bike to incredibly responsive.

[9Mary7]

 

[profbodryak]

10 hours ago, Hosstage said:

I know that the throttle by wire can be adjusted on Harleys, I would think that it can be done on the BMWs.

I am going to Morton's BMW this coming Friday and will definitely ask them. This is the only one thing I don't enjoy as compared to the 1200 engines.

 

I do use dynamic pro 100% of the time too.

[Paddler]

I don't know why you say the 1250 GS is sluggish compared to 1200 GS. If you look at the horsepower and torque curves for the two engines, the 1250 outperforms the 1200 significantly at all RPMs.

[dirtrider]

On 8/13/2023 at 8:00 AM, profbodryak said:

I am going to Morton's BMW this coming Friday and will definitely ask them. This is the only one thing I don't enjoy as compared to the 1200 engines.

 

I do use dynamic pro 100% of the time too.

Morning profbodryak

 

Read your owners manual on the  "dynamic pro" setting, I don't have a 1250GS handy but I believe there is second menu under the  dynamic pro heading that allows you to make some engine performance changes under the  dynamic pro heading. 

 

Also try turning the traction control off as a test to see if that is limiting you throttle response. 

[Paddler]

3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning profbodryak

 

Read your owners manual on the  "dynamic pro" setting, I don't have a 1250GS handy but I believe there is second menu under the  dynamic pro heading that allows you to make some engine performance changes under the  dynamic pro heading. 

 

Also try turning the traction control off as a test to see if that is limiting you throttle response. 

Yes, there is, under Settings.  But it seems when you select Dynamic Pro riding mode the default engine setting is Dynamic.  You can also select Rain or Road, but it's not clear why you would.  Page 75 in the manual.

[wbw6cos]

Umm, Road is also for engine, a.k.a. Riding Mode.   Dynamic is Sporty, Road is middle, and Rain is less throttle response.   They also change the way Traction Control and ABS work together (or not.)

[Bernie]

Please don't get confused between RT and GS/GSA models. The Engine mode are different.

The original question was for a 2020 R1250GS, the controls and functions are different for the R1250RT.

But yes, until you get used to the bike, you will need to use a little more rev's to prevent stalling.

 

[wbw6cos]

Yeah, on the ride home I searched for the Pro portion of that riding mode on my RT and couldn't find it.        But, I did ride a '19 GS at the Performance Center for a day.   So I got that going for me, which is nice.

 

Thanks for keeping me straight, Bernie.  

[profbodryak]

11 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning profbodryak

 

Read your owners manual on the  "dynamic pro" setting, I don't have a 1250GS handy but I believe there is second menu under the  dynamic pro heading that allows you to make some engine performance changes under the  dynamic pro heading. 

 

Also try turning the traction control off as a test to see if that is limiting you throttle response. 

Good evening, dirtrider. Thank you. I set it to dynamic when I first got the bike at the dealer and didn't realize there may be another setting. Will give it a try tomorrow!

 

P. S. will do it on my way to DMV, they sent me an insurance lapse letter, probably because of a total loss on my '15 RT that may have still been listed under my name when I changed insurance companies.

[Hati]

6 hours ago, profbodryak said:

I set it to dynamic when I first got the bike at the dealer and didn't realize there may be another setting.

 

On the '21 and newer RTs the suspension modes are linked to the riding modes, but if you go into the bike setup menu (IIRC under assist, don't have the bike here ATM)), you can change the suspension from "road" to "dynamic"  and back. This change sticks, riding mode changes will not swap it back. Can be done on the go too, no need to stop or even release the throttel.

[Twisties]

[profbodryak]

On 8/14/2023 at 8:42 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning profbodryak

 

Read your owners manual on the  "dynamic pro" setting, I don't have a 1250GS handy but I believe there is second menu under the  dynamic pro heading that allows you to make some engine performance changes under the  dynamic pro heading. 

 

Also try turning the traction control off as a test to see if that is limiting you throttle response.

 

I looked and it appears that there isn't much setting to it other than selecting the dynamic mode. There are no submenus. 

[Hati]

4 hours ago, profbodryak said:

I looked and it appears that there isn't much setting to it other than selecting the dynamic mode. There are no submenus. 

 

That's because the model is different. It is a mistake to assume that because they share  the same shiftcam engine, everything else will be equal too. The GS menu items are quite a bit different, more options in particular than the RT.

 

About the first time I've seen dirtrider wrong on something :D

[Stiggy]

And perhaps a little perspective here as well for those who never ridden the Z900RS:

 

I "re-geared" my '20 900RS by changing the counter shaft sprocket from 16 tooth to 17 tooth just so I wouldn't have to shift into 2nd gear just to clear an intersection without having to upshift....:)

 

To say they are geared differently is an understatement. (I ended up trading that Kaw for my current RT last September.)

 

Different motorcycles serving different needs.

[profbodryak]

This happened again today when I was turning left after a nearly complete stop. Had I not let off the clutch, I would have fallen. The engine never stalled but there's a point below which there's no torque. I have had many RTs but this has never been an issue. Will be at service tomorrow and will bring this up with them. 

[kon]

@profbodryakwould you please post more info after your service visit tomorrow. Thank you

 

[profbodryak]

1 minute ago, kon said:

@profbodryakwould you please post more info after your service visit tomorrow. Thank you

 

Of course. Can certainly post an update. 

[profbodryak]

Went to Morton's BMW this morning. There was an available software updated which was installed. During the test drive after, technician was able to reproduce the issue. He then rode another 1250RT from the showroom and said that it acted somewhat similar. Test drove mine again and said it wasn't as bad the second go round. I was instructed to ride additional 500 miles and ensure that the computer relearns the throttle/riding habits (it was reset). I was able to then reproduce this issue again about 3 times within the first half hour on the way back home. I do notice that it needs more throttle from idle compared with a 1200RT. I will probably put this many miles on it within the next week and will report back again. Something tells me that this is how they are.

 

Unfortunately, this morning I wanted to change lanes from an almost complete stop as the vehicle in front of me was making a turn and here I was with an open throttle and no power to the rear wheel for nearly two seconds. I do believe that the idling RPMs are simply not enough for it to adjust this quickly when I just released the throttle and while near a complete stop (during the situation I described, I was near a complete stop and my feet where not on the ground). I guess I shall see how it does in the next week or so. In my opinion, this is the way they are programmed and this really bothers me as I do have a habit of stopping and taking off without setting my feet on the ground.

[dirtrider]

9 minutes ago, profbodryak said:

Went to Morton's BMW this morning. There was an available software updated which was installed. During the test drive after, technician was able to reproduce the issue. He then rode another 1250RT from the showroom and said that it acted somewhat similar. Test drove mine again and said it wasn't as bad the second go round. I was instructed to ride additional 500 miles and ensure that the computer relearns the throttle/riding habits (it was reset). I was able to then reproduce this issue again about 3 times within the first half hour on the way back home. I do notice that it needs more throttle from idle compared with a 1200RT. I will probably put this many miles on it within the next week and will report back again. Something tells me that this is how they are.

 

Unfortunately, this morning I wanted to change lanes from an almost complete stop as the vehicle in front of me was making a turn and here I was with an open throttle and no power to the rear wheel for nearly two seconds. I do believe that the idling RPMs are simply not enough for it to adjust this quickly when I just released the throttle and while near a complete stop (during the situation I described, I was near a complete stop and my feet where not on the ground). I guess I shall see how it does in the next week or so. In my opinion, this is the way they are programmed and this really bothers me as I do have a habit of stopping and taking off without setting my feet on the ground.

Evening  profbodryak

 

If you haven't already tried it then you might try other ride modes, like  "Road" & "Dynamic" (not the pro), it might be something with the pro mode.

[Bernie]

1 minute ago, dirtrider said:

Evening  profbodryak

 

If you haven't already tried it then you might try other ride modes, like  "Road" & "Dynamic" (not the pro), it might be something with the pro mode.

I am sorry, but I don't think the R1250RT has "Pro" ride modes. I think @profbodryak is riding a R1250RT and not a GS.

How many miles are on this bike? And when was the last time the spark plugs have been changed?

 

[profbodryak]

dirtrider, thank you, I completely forgot to mention this. I was recommended to try road mode before I left but completely forgot. Will try it tomorrow.

 

Bernie, the invoice has ride modes pro on it and I have dynamic and road options (I think no rain option for whatever reason). Currently at 2100 miles. The only service completed so far was a 600 mile service, so I don't think spark plugs would have been replaced.

[profbodryak]

I can't imagine the flapper valve would have so much effect on performance? After all, it is throttle by wire and with throttle open at 50%, one should expect some increase in RPM's.

 

Btw, I still have the servo buddy from my '15 RT but on most websites it says that it is not compatible with a '23 RT. I am assuming not worth a try (just to disable it, not for the sake of the problem)?

[Skywagon]

Sounds like turbonormalizer lag… except it doesn’t have one. Something isn’t right. Don’t let the dealer tell you it’s normal. The 1250 is supposed to have more giddy up and torque than my 1200 wet. Mine has 0 lag unless in first gear, dynamic, with traction control on  if I go WOT from idle it will throttle back to keep from raising the front wheel. 
You have a great bike. Make them sort it out. 

[Bernie]

18 minutes ago, profbodryak said:

dirtrider, thank you, I completely forgot to mention this. I was recommended to try road mode before I left but completely forgot. Will try it tomorrow.

 

Bernie, the invoice has ride modes pro on it and I have dynamic and road options (I think no rain option for whatever reason). Currently at 2100 miles. The only service completed so far was a 600 mile service, so I don't think spark plugs would have been replaced.

Yes I know you have ride modes pro, so do I. But if you push your mode button, you can only select Rain, Road und Dynamic. You don’t have Dynamic Pro or Enduro Pro, because you said you have a RT!?

 

[Rinkydink]

Obviously something is amiss. Dealer should be able to sort it out. Good luck. 

[profbodryak]

13 hours ago, Skywagon said:

Sounds like turbonormalizer lag… except it doesn’t have one. Something isn’t right. Don’t let the dealer tell you it’s normal. The 1250 is supposed to have more giddy up and torque than my 1200 wet. Mine has 0 lag unless in first gear, dynamic, with traction control on  if I go WOT from idle it will throttle back to keep from raising the front wheel. 
You have a great bike. Make them sort it out. 

100% agree with you Skywagon and will keep trying to figure this out.

[profbodryak]

13 hours ago, Rinkydink said:

Obviously something is amiss. Dealer should be able to sort it out. Good luck. 

Yup, thank you.

[Bernie]

So when you twist the throttle grip, your rpm’s do not increase? I missed that in your earlier posts. It stays at idle rpm? Sounds like a bad throttle grip or a loose or pinched wire. 

[profbodryak]

On 8/17/2023 at 11:10 PM, kon said:

@profbodryak

 

9 minutes ago, Bernie said:

So when you twist the throttle grip, your rpm’s do not increase? I missed that in your earlier posts. It stays at idle rpm? Sounds like a bad throttle grip or a loose or pinched wire. 

 

Yes, that's exactly what happens and it takes about two seconds to get the rpms to start increasing. 

[Bernie]

I don’t think that is caused by any of the ride modes. I think it’s a communication issue between the twist grip and the fueling computer. Bad wire? Bad twist grip ? The GS911WIFI has a section where you can watch the results of the twist grip turning and it also has a procedure to reset the twist grip. I am sure you dealer has a similar procedure he can perform on the big BMW computer. 

[profbodryak]

On 8/17/2023 at 11:10 PM, kon said:

@profbodryak

I'll just say that compared to my '15 1200RT, my' 23 has less oomph when taking off. I've never lifted the front wheel on a motorcycle before but the dealer said he could lift the front wheel. If there was a pinched wire, wouldn't it affect throttle at all ranges? 

[dirtrider]

45 minutes ago, profbodryak said:

I'll just say that compared to my '15 1200RT, my' 23 has less oomph when taking off. I've never lifted the front wheel on a motorcycle before but the dealer said he could lift the front wheel. If there was a pinched wire, wouldn't it affect throttle at all ranges? 

Afternoon   profbodryak

 

A pinched wire doesn't mean much (it isn't a hose that can become restricted by a pinch), as long as the wire (or wires) are not shorted to ground or shorted to each other then that isn't the cause (if there was a short to ground, or shorted to each other, then the dealer would have picked that up as a stored fault code).

 

But it could have something to do with the how the fueling computer interprets the twist grip input as the computer has to condition the input signal then modify it based on other engine management functions & what ride mode you are in. 

 

It could be the twist grip output has a dip in it's output signal, not enough to trip a fault but just enough to delay throttle response, but if the dealer said a like-motorcycle did the same thing then it is probably something not right in the programming.

 

Or, possibly it is seeing false wheel speed signal so it triggers traction control. 

 

If more than one (like) motorcycle is doing the same thing then eventually BMW will probably have a firmware update to address it.

 

If you have access to a GS-911 then trap a full riding event until the problem shows then see if you can spot something in the trapped data. 

 

 

[Hati]

2 hours ago, profbodryak said:

I'll just say that compared to my '15 1200RT, my' 23 has less oomph when taking off.

 

That should definitely be the other way around. My '21 pulls like a steam train from 2k rpm in any gear. I agree with Bernie, your issues is likely a communication interruption between the throttle and ECU. Did your dealer check the throttle grip connection? It has very small connectors that are quite easy to dislodge or to not push together properly.

[profbodryak]

dirtrider, but if the twist grip has a dip in it's output signal, wouldn't it then happen in all situations? Or is it positional and just possibly happens just in the beginning of the turn? Something makes me think it needs to get escalated to BMW as it is hopefully just a poorly written software algorithm they will fix with an update. I tested it in road mode and same exact thing happened. 

 

Hati, I agree and my RT is like a rocket under any other circumstances but this is from idle at about 1100 rpms or so. And it's not just when the light turned green and I am taking off after waiting. It's when I just came to a complete stop and need to accelerate immediately right after. 

[Hati]

5 hours ago, profbodryak said:

it is hopefully just a poorly written software algorithm

 

I doubt that very much because if this was the case, you would get a lot of bikes, if not all, behaving the same way. In fact I think software is the part that can be ruled out, for the same reason.

 

Yours is I hardware problem, would be willing to put money on it if I was the gambling type.

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Hati said:

 

I doubt that very much because if this was the case, you would get a lot of bikes, if not all, behaving the same way. In fact I think software is the part that can be ruled out, for the same reason.

 

Yours is I hardware problem, would be willing to put money on it if I was the gambling type.

Morning Hati

 

 

See profbodryak's post above__ 

 

  "Went to Morton's BMW this morning. There was an available software updated which was installed. During the test drive after, technician was able to reproduce the issue. He then rode another 1250RT from the showroom and said that it acted somewhat similar".

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, profbodryak said:

dirtrider, but if the twist grip has a dip in it's output signal, wouldn't it then happen in all situations? Or is it positional and just possibly happens just in the beginning of the turn? Something makes me think it needs to get escalated to BMW as it is hopefully just a poorly written software algorithm they will fix with an update. I tested it in road mode and same exact thing happened. 

 

Morning  profbodryak

 

But if the twist grip has a dip in it's output signal, wouldn't it then happen in all situations?--- That could depend on the situation. If you roll the throttle on just enough to pass the problem area then you probably wouldn't notice it, if you roll the throttle on just far enough to hit that dip then you would definitely notice it. In normal riding you might quickly pass right through a dip without noticing anything. 

 

I have seen this in TPS signals (we call it a hole in the signal) so it could happen to a twist grip output. Something like this should show up in GS-911 trapped data with the throttle position signal going flat or even dipping against other sensor data showing something different.   

 

Typically if a hardware issue then those are there almost all the time (not just on certain launches), it's those pesky firmware issues that are difficult to define & find. 

 

If things get too far out of expected then you would think that it would set a fault code, something like a quick open or quick short from the twist grip should definitely trap a fault   (so assuming your dealer checked for that then something like this doesn't seem likely)

 

You probably need to get your dealer more involved, & even get a BMW field rep involved.  Keep insisting it is a safety issue with loss of acceleration pulling into traffic & turning across on-coming traffic. Keep pestering them on the safety aspect as that draws way more concern than "I don't like it doing what it is doing". If they say it is normal then get that in writing, tell them you need that for future legal if you get hit making a turn or pulling into traffic. 

 

If they don't see your concern then tell them you are afraid to ride it as it is now & have them trailer it back to the dealer under warranty. If they have to haul it in a couple of times that usually gets their attention. 

 

A simple inconvenience or dislike seldom draws dealer or BMW concern. But typically safety issues get their attention. If it were me I would keep after your dealer until they get you an answer or make it right. 

 

The dealer just looked at it, worked on it, if it STILL isn't right then get right back to them & tell them it isn't repaired, is still acting up & is dangerous to ride in traffic.  

 

 

[bimmers]

Ok,

i have experienced the same a couple of times when taking off at traffic light change. I have just translated it into it requiring a little more gas (twist) but I could compare it to a stick shift 4 cylinder non turbo behavior compared to a 8 cylinder one. There it is a question of torque and clutch slip when starting. So don't let the clutch out so fast and you can smoothen the take off.

When changing lanes at 0 speed you still deal with same issue letting clutch go at too low rpms. The responsiveness of gas ie twist of handle is phenomenal compared to the 1200's i have and had. 

Since I ride both 1250 and 1200 RTs I have to be conscious about the differences in behavior wihich is massive. 

So I think it is "normal" and maybe not as on other bikes but one can get used to it and goosing it a little more. I may change my opinion after I drop it once so i am a realist but for now  I'm fine.

 

H

[JCtx]

Something that was never mentioned to the OP, a shaft-driven bike (and one with a single-sided swing-arm at that) besides being heavier, also has more friction on its drive-train than chain-drive. So you can expect a little lazier launching vs a lighter chain-driven bike. But yes, gearing plays a big part on that too. Having said that, my R1250R has exceptional torque, and have had zero issues with take-offs. But if you want to take off fast, you obviously need to get the revs a lot higher than a lazy take-off, which is what I do most of the time. Once you have the clutch fully out, you can apply throttle, and the bike responds immediately, and forcefully. And my new R is much smoother at lower rpm than my ex-2014 RT was. And it's nice not to have tingling hands (and feet) from my ex-4 cylinder bikes anymore:).