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dirtrider

Throttle Body "MORE" cracked cable cams/pulleys

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aggieengineer

This is most interesting. It is reassuring to see the 2017 mold date. I was concerned that buying a set of these, they might have been in a warehouse since 2008, not aging gracefully. This thread should be monitored by every hexhead owner. The results will likely prove important, both from a safety and financial aspect!

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dirtrider
42 minutes ago, aggieengineer said:

This is most interesting. It is reassuring to see the 2017 mold date. I was concerned that buying a set of these, they might have been in a warehouse since 2008, not aging gracefully. This thread should be monitored by every hexhead owner. The results will likely prove important, both from a safety and financial aspect!

 

Evening aggieengineer

 

Yes, that current mold date is the good part, the bad part is I really can't see any difference or improvement in construction, plus the plastic material is still the same material.

 

By looking at the 3 shrinkage circle indentations it doesn't look like they did anything with the hole & 2 notches in the stop arm.

 

I would like to think that  Bing made some change in their process somewhere as they HAVE to know that there was a basic problem with the cams. 

 

Until we see (or don't see) a failed new version there is no way to tell if there were any changes to the die process that is hidden by the outer plastic, or possibly a temperature change at injection time, or maybe (hopefully) a better bonding agent between the metal arm & the plastic cam.

 

I went ahead & replaced the shafts/cams on both sides but  the R/H side ended up  a fair amount off on correct base idle screw setting  after the  shaft/cam install. So I just adjusted both side base idle screws  to the same 'pre-shaft install' screw/arm  clearance (there was  just too much difference between sides after the new shaft/cam installation was done if I left both base idle screws as factory set).

 

I haven't ridden the bike yet (doing other work while the plastic is removed) but the base idle was  real close on cross side balance  as installed (I'm happy with that but  don't know what my hot engine stepper courts are as a friend borrowed my GS-911 for the weekend).

 

The above idle balance was off (right to the end of my U tube height) so that tells me that the new cams are not perfectly matched (or possibly my originals were not perfectly matched?) Without a GS-911 I didn't have the ability to hold the steppers as for a stepper count cross side influence.

 

I really won't know the whole story until I ride the bike then get a GS-911 on it.

 

The idea behind this process was to see  if the shafts/cams CAN be replaced without a GS-911.

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aggieengineer

I've ridden mine through two full temperature cycles and haven't noticed any difference. The stepper motor counts remain close, with a difference of only about 7 at most. Maybe I got away lucky. 

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greiffster

Nice work, DR. Much appreciated. 

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Qball 16
On 5/1/2019 at 12:38 PM, dirtrider said:

 

The actual throttle body removal is fairly straight forward (IF) you have proper clamp ring removal pliers. The new Bing shaft with cam is not a difficult install (if all is marked & care is used in getting it back aligned properly).

 

 

D.R. - could you provide a name, type, description or link to an example of these particular pliers?  I'm having difficulty finding any definitive information about the actual pliers required here...  Also, I'm assuming that, with the proper pliers & a little care, the clamps are re-usable?

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Ponch
5 minutes ago, Qball 16 said:

 

D.R. - could you provide a name, type, description or link to an example of these particular pliers?  I'm having difficulty finding any definitive information about the actual pliers required here...  Also, I'm assuming that, with the proper pliers & a little care, the clamps are re-usable?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Clamp-Pliers-for-Oetikers-Low-Profile-Clamps-Product-Group-168/292957691552?hash=item4435a39ea0:g:E2AAAOSwmRFaT9C4

 

Yes they are reusable. 

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dirtrider

Progress report__ 2009-- 1200RT

 

Rode the bike late yesterday about 60 miles  (after both side TB shafts/cams were replaced), using no GS-911 or the long involved process.

 

No GS-911 confirmation data yet as I still don't have my GS-991 back from a friend.  But I did do a pre-ride & post-ride manometer, idle, 1500, 2500 RPM's cross side vacuum check .

 

I am extremely happy with the bike's cold starting, warm idle smoothness, &  road-load steady throttle performance. Actually I believe the engine runs better now than before the throttle shaft/cam install (no real difference in cold or warm starting, no difference that I could detect  in warm curb  idle,  or in steady road-load smoothness but the 2000rpm & 2500rpm  high gear  moderate throttle  roll-on was definitely smoother & less harsh.

 

I did do some other work like valve lash check (one exhaust valve was adjusted but the adjustment was more subjective than needed as it was basically within spec but I didn't like the feeler gage pull through so I tightened it a RCH).  (I do use the 1200RT-P valve adjustment spec of  .35mm vs .30mm  as I ride the pretty hard) 

 

I also replaced the air filter element but the old one wasn't real dirty (I was there with bike apart  so good time to do the air filter). I noted no difference in wide open throttle performance & THAT is where an air filter difference would show up first.

 

The only thing 'done' that c-o-u-l-d have effected the runability is I did do a new  post TB install TPS relearn as the TPS  had to be removed from the L/H throttle body to get the shaft in & out.  

 

(Or)- possibly it was the fuel in the fuel tank softening the part throttle low RPM roll-on as the tank was still mostly full of last fall's 90 octane non-alcohol winter storage fuel. It might have been running with a little more spark retard under roll-on load due to the lower octane fuel as more  spark retard will usually soften the firing pulses slightly. (time will tell on this one as I go back to higher octane E-10 summer fuel)   

 

My before check showed the cross side idle balance favored the L/H side by about 1.5" H2o (WELL within spec) & about where it use to be pre-shaft/cam install. Here's the  oddity, after the ride (post-ride re-check) is was dead even side to side (steppers evened it right out to perfect). I hardly ever find a 1200 (stepper controlled) engine with perfectly even idle balance. Might be fluke so I will check it a few more times  in the future (I have remote vacuum hoses running from the TB's to up under the seat then capped off there so it is a quick post ride check).

 

The 1500rpm  & 2500rpm was about like it used to be (pre-shaft/cam install)  as it would vary slightly & trade sides as per throttle position & throttle movement but never more than inch or two of H2o variance (again WELL within BMW spec).

 

So far so good & it seems like no issues-- only took about 20-30  minutes (per throttle body)  to install the new shafts/cams  ONCE the Tupperware was removed & throttle bodies were removed.       

 

 

 

 

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dirtrider
43 minutes ago, Qball 16 said:

 

D.R. - could you provide a name, type, description or link to an example of these particular pliers?  I'm having difficulty finding any definitive information about the actual pliers required here...  Also, I'm assuming that, with the proper pliers & a little care, the clamps are re-usable?

 

 

Morning Qball 16

 

The pliers that Ponch posted will definitely work.

 

The ones that I personally use are made by Blue Point  & are designed to remove/install low profile axle boot clamps on front wheel drive vehicles (look identical to the ones that Ponch posted).

 

Most auto parts stores will have them (some cheaper than others & some auto parts stores will even loan them out to customers to replace axle shaft low profile boots).

 

Probably a lot on E-Bay also but I'm guessing that most are probably listed for use on low profile axle boot clamps. (basically just a larger diameter version of the BMW clamps).  Low profile axle boot clamps engage & lock just like the BMW TB clamps. The 'non' low profile axle boot clamps  have the a different setup as they use a pliers that look more like tile cutters. 

 

While you are thinking of tools you will need a small external snap ring pliers to remove the little circlips from the ends of the throttle shafts (one under the cap on the R/H TB & one under the TPS of the L/H TB). I used a 90° snap ring pliers as it is easier  to see & work with the handle at a right angle, but you could get by with a straight snap ring pliers (they will have to be fairly small as the grooves in the circlip are close together). I don't believe that you want to try to pry the circlip apart/to/open as it doesn't fit the shaft very tight so you definitely don't want to bend or distort it in any way

 

8bVu18x.jpg

 

 

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greiffster
21 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Progress report__ 2009-- 1200RT

 

Rode the bike late yesterday about 60 miles  (after both side TB shafts/cams were replaced), using no GS-911 or the long involved process.

 

No GS-911 confirmation data yet as I still don't have my GS-991 back from a friend.  But I did do a pre-ride & post-ride manometer, idle, 1500, 2500 RPM's cross side vacuum check .

 

I am extremely happy with the bike's cold starting, warm idle smoothness, &  road-load steady throttle performance. Actually I believe the engine runs better now than before the throttle shaft/cam install (no real difference in cold or warm starting, no difference that I could detect  in warm curb  idle,  or in steady road-load smoothness but the 2000rpm & 2500rpm  high gear  moderate throttle  roll-on was definitely smoother & less harsh.

 

I did do some other work like valve lash check (one exhaust valve was adjusted but the adjustment was more subjective than needed as it was basically within spec but I didn't like the feeler gage pull through so I tightened it a RCH).  (I do use the 1200RT-P valve adjustment spec of  .35mm vs .30mm  as I ride the pretty hard) 

 

I also replaced the air filter element but the old one wasn't real dirty (I was there with bike apart  so good time to do the air filter). I noted no difference in wide open throttle performance & THAT is where an air filter difference would show up first.

 

The only thing 'done' that c-o-u-l-d have effected the runability is I did do a new  post TB install TPS relearn as the TPS  had to be removed from the L/H throttle body to get the shaft in & out.  

 

(Or)- possibly it was the fuel in the fuel tank softening the part throttle low RPM roll-on as the tank was still mostly full of last fall's 90 octane non-alcohol winter storage fuel. It might have been running with a little more spark retard under roll-on load due to the lower octane fuel as more  spark retard will usually soften the firing pulses slightly. (time will tell on this one as I go back to higher octane E-10 summer fuel)   

 

My before check showed the cross side idle balance favored the L/H side by about 1.5" H2o (WELL within spec) & about where it use to be pre-shaft/cam install. Here's the  oddity, after the ride (post-ride re-check) is was dead even side to side (steppers evened it right out to perfect). I hardly ever find a 1200 (stepper controlled) engine with perfectly even idle balance. Might be fluke so I will check it a few more times  in the future (I have remote vacuum hoses running from the TB's to up under the seat then capped off there so it is a quick post ride check).

 

The 1500rpm  & 2500rpm was about like it used to be (pre-shaft/cam install)  as it would vary slightly & trade sides as per throttle position & throttle movement but never more than inch or two of H2o variance (again WELL within BMW spec).

 

So far so good & it seems like no issues-- only took about 20-30  minutes (per throttle body)  to install the new shafts/cams  ONCE the Tupperware was removed & throttle bodies were removed.       

 

 

 

 

 

Sooooo, I've got cams and shafts arriving any day.  Is you method for setting the base idle screws ready for prime time?  Of perhaps you can give me the Beta test version and I can plot you a sample point?

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dirtrider
18 minutes ago, greiffster said:

 

Sooooo, I've got cams and shafts arriving any day.  Is you method for setting the base idle screws ready for prime time?  Of perhaps you can give me the Beta test version and I can plot you a sample point?

 

Morning Mike

 

Wellll, possibly.

 

So far I am fairly happy with the method-- BUT!--  I have only done it on a sample of one (well one left TB & one right TB).

 

As far as I can tell it worked really good on the TB's that I just did but they pre-measured out to be within a range that the process worked well on.

 

My simple procedure is based on pre-measurements using standard feeler gage stock as a FIXED & known position  'closed throttle plate opening'.

 

My TB's were in good shape with very little wear & both sides pre- measured out to be really close side to side.

 

My one big concern with this method is IF the closed throttle plate takes more than .002" to hold the throttle stop arm off of the base idle screw. Not that .003" or .004" would change the procedure BUT I have serious doubts that a .003" or thicker flat feeler gage stock would conform to the round throttle plate to round throttle bore.  

 

If a pre-install-check shows that a .002" or even a .0015" feeler stock will hold the stop arm off of the base idle screw then I have pretty good confidence that the procedure will work with decent accuracy.

 

Even IF the gage stock needs to be thicker than .002"  it should still work but it will probably require brass shim stock rather hardened steel feeler stock as the brass should more easily conform to the round plate to round throttle bore with thicker gage stock.  

 

The one primary thing that I learned on the set that I just did was___ If I just installed the new throttle shaft/cam without measuring or changing anything, or moving the base idle screw, then the L/H side TB would probably have come out pretty close (been usable as assembled). This assumes that  the throttle plate was marked & wiggled, massaged, fooled with to allow it to find it's most closed position before fully tightening the screws.

 

Now the R/H side wasn't even close & if I just left the base idle screw at it's factory setting the throttle plate would have rubbed the throttle bore at completely closed  with very little air flow around the perimeter (no ring of light showing at all with new shaft/cam installed).  (this tells me that  the original R/H shaft/cam was a bit out of spec, or the replacement is a bit out of spec, or they both are slightly out of spec) --In any case they weren't exactly the same.  

 

I started writing up a procedure but it isn't an easy thing to put into words so that someone that hasn't done one before (or hadn't had a throttle body apart before)   could easily understand & follow.

 

The ONE BIG THING that I can caution on is to not get ahead or yourself & not take ANYTHING apart on the throttle body without precision marking the part or parts removed. Especially the TPS position (needs to be marked with upmost precision) & the throttle plate to throttle shaft position (this need to pretty exact to get the plate back in straight & back to exactly how it was originally clocked)

 

It actually didn't take me long to do the shaft/cam installs but it took a fair amount of time in figuring how I should best  mark things,  how to proceed, what are the pitfalls if I miss properly marking something.

 

I'm probably going to start a separate thread on the actual install procedure once I figure out how to write it up so it makes sense to someone doing it for the first time. 

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Ponch
51 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning Mike

 

Wellll, possibly.

 

So far I am fairly happy with the method-- BUT!--  I have only done it on a sample of one (well one left TB & one right TB).

 

As far as I can tell it worked really good on the TB's that I just did but they pre-measured out to be within a range that the process worked well on.

 

My simple procedure is based on pre-measurements using standard feeler gage stock as a FIXED & known position  'closed throttle plate opening'.

 

My TB's were in good shape with very little wear & both sides pre- measured out to be really close side to side.

 

My one big concern with this method is IF the closed throttle plate takes more than .002" to hold the throttle stop arm off of the base idle screw. Not that .003" or .004" would change the procedure BUT I have serious doubts that a .003" or thicker flat feeler gage stock would conform to the round throttle plate to round throttle bore.  

 

If a pre-install-check shows that a .002" or even a .0015" feeler stock will hold the stop arm off of the base idle screw then I have pretty good confidence that the procedure will work with decent accuracy.

 

Even IF the gage stock needs to be thicker than .002"  it should still work but it will probably require brass shim stock rather hardened steel feeler stock as the brass should more easily conform to the round plate to round throttle bore with thicker gage stock.  

 

The one primary thing that I learned on the set that I just did was___ If I just installed the new throttle shaft/cam without measuring or changing anything, or moving the base idle screw, then the L/H side TB would probably have come out pretty close (been usable as assembled). This assumes that  the throttle plate was marked & wiggled, massaged, fooled with to allow it to find it's most closed position before fully tightening the screws.

 

Now the R/H side wasn't even close & if I just left the base idle screw at it's factory setting the throttle plate would have rubbed the throttle bore at completely closed  with very little air flow around the perimeter (no ring of light showing at all with new shaft/cam installed).  (this tells me that  the original R/H shaft/cam was a bit out of spec, or the replacement is a bit out of spec, or they both are slightly out of spec) --In any case they weren't exactly the same.  

 

I started writing up a procedure but it isn't an easy thing to put into words so that someone that hasn't done one before (or hadn't had a throttle body apart before)   could easily understand & follow.

 

The ONE BIG THING that I can caution on is to not get ahead or yourself & not take ANYTHING apart on the throttle body without precision marking the part or parts removed. Especially the TPS position (needs to be marked with upmost precision) & the throttle plate to throttle shaft position (this need to pretty exact to get the plate back in straight & back to exactly how it was originally clocked)

 

It actually didn't take me long to do the shaft/cam installs but it took a fair amount of time in figuring how I should best  mark things,  how to proceed, what are the pitfalls if I miss properly marking something.

 

I'm probably going to start a separate thread on the actual install procedure once I figure out how to write it up so it makes sense to someone doing it for the first time. 

 

Maybe the metal cams are an easier install. Not as much to mess up with sensors and such. 

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Ponch
2 hours ago, Qball 16 said:

 

Thanks Ponch!

 

I did see Oetikers mentioned online somewhere, but when I looked them up all I found were the one-time use crush ring type hose clamps & pliers...

I couldn't find them locally, so I ordered them on ebay. They work fine and make it a lot easier to do. If  you lived in AZ I'd let you borrow mine. 

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Qball 16
52 minutes ago, Ponch said:

 

Maybe the metal cams are an easier install. Not as much to mess up with sensors and such. 

 

I'm REALLY hoping so (I just ordered them)...  Fantastic service from Beemer Bits!

 

 

51 minutes ago, Ponch said:

I couldn't find them locally, so I ordered them on ebay. They work fine and make it a lot easier to do. If  you lived in AZ I'd let you borrow mine. 

 

Thanks!  It'd be a long ride, and I have friends/family in the Phoenix area, but my cracked plastic cams would probably self destruct along the way :eek:

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greiffster
1 hour ago, Ponch said:

 

Maybe the metal cams are an easier install. Not as much to mess up with sensors and such. 

 

Easier?  I'm not sure.  I watched the video.  You still have to pull off the TBs.  Yeah, you won't have to worry about the base idle screw as the shaft and plates don't come out.  But now you've got to drill into the metal cam arm.  It does take a few other tools to install the thing.  It does look pretty darn permanent. 

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Ponch
7 minutes ago, greiffster said:

 

Easier?  I'm not sure.  I watched the video.  You still have to pull off the TBs.  Yeah, you won't have to worry about the base idle screw as the shaft and plates don't come out.  But now you've got to drill into the metal cam arm.  It does take a few other tools to install the thing.  It does look pretty darn permanent. 

Easier for me. I don't mind drilling, but in replacing the shafter, there's more to go wrong and you'll still have the plastic pulleys. I wish there was a way to call BMW to account on this stuff, but it happens with their cars. A dollar chasing a dime building them. 

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dirtrider
6 minutes ago, Ponch said:

Easier for me. I don't mind drilling, but in replacing the shafter, there's more to go wrong and you'll still have the plastic pulleys. I wish there was a way to call BMW to account on this stuff, but it happens with their cars. A dollar chasing a dime building them. 

 

Afternoon Ponch

 

Yes, with the shaft/cam you still have the plastic cams but with those we have a somewhat known life cycle.

 

On the alloy cams we really have no long term lifecycle data. I know metal sounds better than plastic but those are alloy (aluminum) cams & I don't believe that they are anodized for outer wear toughness in the groove area.  You really don't see many aluminum throttle body or carburetor cams in a production & my bet is that the few that you do are heavily anodized.

 

We also don't know if   the alloy cams will stay tight for a full lifecycle (hopefully they will but that is no guarantee without a few full life long term  durability testing ).  

 

I'm not saying that the alloy cams are going to fail, just that we don't have much long term test data to prove their long term durability.  

 

The good part about the alloy cams is even if they don't wear very good, or don't stay tight, they probably won't suddenly fall apart &  fracture leaving the bike suddenly un-ridable.

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Ponch
21 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Afternoon Ponch

 

Yes, with the shaft/cam you still have the plastic cams but with those we have a somewhat known life cycle.

 

On the alloy cams we really have no long term lifecycle data. I know metal sounds better than plastic but those are alloy (aluminum) cams & I don't believe that they are anodized for outer wear toughness in the groove area.  You really don't see many aluminum throttle body or carburetor cams in a production & my bet is that the few that you do are heavily anodized.

 

We also don't know if   the alloy cams will stay tight for a full lifecycle (hopefully they will but that is no guarantee without a few full life long term  durability testing ).  

 

I'm not saying that the alloy cams are going to fail, just that we don't have much long term test data to prove their long term durability.  

 

The good part about the alloy cams is even if they don't wear very good, or don't stay tight, they probably won't suddenly fall apart &  fracture leaving the bike suddenly un-ridable.

 

...You don't have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind blows...Point is, I don't care about MTBF as if they are gambling money against reliability, we seem to come up second or third best. Seems that even if other companies use plastic pulleys, they aren't falling apart after 5 years. That's the galling thing with BMW. They have water pumps that leak when new, bad switch gear, fuel strips etc and it's stuff that everyone has figured out how to make reliable. It just baffles me. It's not that they aren't capable of making a reliable pulley here, it's they they refuse to, in a sense. My only thought is that they want to save a few pennies and if down the road, when it's out of warranty, money will be made with replacement parts or the person will just have enough and get a new bike, meaning built in obsolenscence. Maybe I am cynical, but it sure seems that's the way it is. There's a cultural/philosophical problem here more than a technical one. 

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dirtrider

Found another one__

 

Owner looked & wasn't sure so I removed clamps & rotated the throttle body  enough to expose the pulley.

 

With careful inspection it did show the start of cracking.  

 

Early 2009 1200RT, 37,000 miles, (only R/H side showed the beginning of cracking).

 

4OAsZB1.jpg

 

 

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Ponch

Mine went on 1/7/2015 with 29,843 miles. 

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Shane J.

I inspected mine today with a mirror and light and couldn't find any cracks. 66000 on a '07. Maybe it already happened and repaired, possibly with new throttle bodies. I have only had the bike a few months. The plastic cams didn't look aged at all.

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Qball 16

My 2 throttle bodies :(

 

The left side has a good size crack developing right at the end near the point where the cable attaches.  The right side has a crack so big you can see daylight through it, as well as 2 smaller ones...

 

While I wait for the Beemer Bits aluminum cam replacements to arrive (early this week), any DO'S or DONT'S for cleaning the throttle bodies while they're off the bike???  There's quite an accumulation of crud inside the throttle bodies themselves and on the throttle plates as well.

 

Cheers!

IMG_4842.jpg

IMG_4843.jpg

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dirtrider
33 minutes ago, Qball 16 said:

My 2 throttle bodies :(

 

The left side has a good size crack developing right at the end near the point where the cable attaches.  The right side has a crack so big you can see daylight through it, as well as 2 smaller ones...

 

While I wait for the Beemer Bits aluminum cam replacements to arrive (early this week), any DO'S or DONT'S for cleaning the throttle bodies while they're off the bike???  There's quite an accumulation of crud inside the throttle bodies themselves and on the throttle plates as well.

 

Cheers!

 

 

 

Evening Qball 16

 

You can clean them but you need to be careful of getting any cleaning solvent into the electrical pin areas of the TPS sensor & the electrical pin area of the steppers. Most crud can probably be wiped off with a rag with brake clean on it, then maybe some long Q tips to get around the edges of the throttle plate/throttle shaft area.

 

You also have to be careful to not get solvent into the pintal area of the steppers as the pintal threads are lubricated so you don't want to wash the lubrication out of those. (or just remove the stepper)

 

When reassembling make sure that the covers are on the cables BEFORE you hook the cables up, also make sure that the cables are fully in the cam tracks (double check this).

 

Make sure that the cables are fully snapped into the throttle body plastic bracket  (give them a tug to be sure that they are snapped in).

 

Lightly lubricate the fuel injector "O" rings before you push them back into the throttle bodies. (caution: don't use silicone grease as that can harm the o2 sensors) 

 

The Beemer Bits cams might be a bit tight on the inside so you might have to do some file work to get them to clear & have a bit of operating clearance (you can't leave them too tight or they can put a wearing side force on the throttle plates to throttle bore).

 

Go slowly & if something doesn't feel, look, or seem right then STOP & find out why.

 

 

 

 

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Qball 16
59 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Evening Qball 16

 

You can clean them but you need to be careful of getting any cleaning solvent into the electrical pin areas of the TPS sensor & the electrical pin area of the steppers. Most crud can probably be wiped off with a rag with brake clean on it, then maybe some long Q tips to get around the edges of the throttle plate/throttle shaft area.

 

You also have to be careful to not get solvent into the pintal area of the steppers as the pintal threads are lubricated so you don't want to wash the lubrication out of those. (or just remove the stepper)

 

When reassembling make sure that the covers are on the cables BEFORE you hook the cables up, also make sure that the cables are fully in the cam tracks (double check this).

 

Make sure that the cables are fully snapped into the throttle body plastic bracket  (give them a tug to be sure that they are snapped in).

 

Lightly lubricate the fuel injector "O" rings before you push them back into the throttle bodies. (caution: don't use silicone grease as that can harm the o2 sensors) 

 

The Beemer Bits cams might be a bit tight on the inside so you might have to do some file work to get them to clear & have a bit of operating clearance (you can't leave them too tight or they can put a wearing side force on the throttle plates to throttle bore).

 

Go slowly & if something doesn't feel, look, or seem right then STOP & find out why.

 

 

 

 

 

Awesome, thanks!!!!!!!

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Qball 16

Anyone have a procedure (BMW service manual?) for adjusting throttle cables both at the throttle end AND at the throttle body end???

 

My Haynes manual doesn't do a great job describing the process, the black & white pictures are almost undecipherable, and it only describes/shows one cable at the throttle while my 06RT has two :dontknow:

 

The Beemer Bits aluminum cam install was reasonably straight forward.  Syncing the throttle bodies has not gone well, however, and I've messed with all 4 ends of the throttle cable adjustment trying to get things balanced.  I'm basically chasing my tail at this point, and can't seem to get things back to square one.

 

Long story, short - I'm an idiot & need your help :ohboy:

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Qball 16 said:

Anyone have a procedure (BMW service manual?) for adjusting throttle cables both at the throttle end AND at the throttle body end???

 

My Haynes manual doesn't do a great job describing the process, the black & white pictures are almost undecipherable, and it only describes/shows one cable at the throttle while my 06RT has two :dontknow:

 

The Beemer Bits aluminum cam install was reasonably straight forward.  Syncing the throttle bodies has not gone well, however, and I've messed with all 4 ends of the throttle cable adjustment trying to get things balanced.  I'm basically chasing my tail at this point, and can't seem to get things back to square one.

 

Long story, short - I'm an idiot & need your help :ohboy:

 

Morning Qball 16

 

I will look for a procedure later today (not near my service manuals at the moment).

 

In the mean time make DARN sure that  both side throttle cables are PROPERY routed ALL the way around the throttle body cam tracks.

 

A friend of mine had his TB's removed & didn't get the cable back on (in) the cam tracks) correctly & he played around all day trying to get a TB balance.

 

You might also have to put a couple of fans blowing air on your engine then run it long enough to fully go into closed loop to allow the idle balance (computer controlled) to even itself out. Whatever the hot-engine cross side balance at hot idle  is will carry up into the above idle balance, SO, you either need to lock the steppers with a GS-911, OR, wait until the idle cross side balance is reasonable side to side to begin with.

 

The 1200 engines are difficult to balance unless the hot engine 'computer controlled' base idle balance is close side to side (or you will need to lock the steppers)

 

Also, might not hurt to do a new TPS re-learn just to eliminate that.

 

I wish you hadn't messed with the upper cables before asking here as NOW you have a lot more  work (if you have cruise control) as the cruise control cable adjustment (under fuel tank front) might be effecting  your base upper cable adjustment)

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Qball 16
22 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning Qball 16

 

I will look for a procedure later today (not near my service manuals at the moment).

 

In the mean time make DARN sure that  both side throttle cables are PROPERY routed ALL the way around the throttle body cam tracks.

 

A friend of mine had his TB's removed & didn't get the cable back on (in) the cam tracks) correctly & he played around all day trying to get a TB balance.

 

You might also have to put a couple of fans blowing air on your engine then run it long enough to fully go into closed loop to allow the idle balance (computer controlled) to even itself out. Whatever the hot-engine cross side balance at hot idle  is will carry up into the above idle balance, SO, you either need to lock the steppers with a GS-911, OR, wait until the idle cross side balance is reasonable side to side to begin with.

 

The 1200 engines are difficult to balance unless the hot engine 'computer controlled' base idle balance is close side to side (or you will need to lock the steppers)

 

Also, might not hurt to do a new TPS re-learn just to eliminate that.

 

I wish you hadn't messed with the upper cables before asking here as NOW you have a lot more  work (if you have cruise control) as the cruise control cable adjustment (under fuel tank front) might be effecting  your base upper cable adjustment)

 

Thanks D.R.

 

The cables are definitely in the cam tracks, now...  They popped out on both sides when I turned the cams manually (checking their rotation), but I caught it before moving on!

 

I do have a GS-911 and was attempting the sync procedure with the steppers locked.  That said, I did have it running for a good 20 minutes last night with fans blowing hard, so it was definitely at full/normal operating temperature (hot)!

 

Excuse my ignorance - is the TPS re-learn a GS-911 procedure, or the "key on & twist the throttle lock-to-lock twice" procedure?

 

I do have cruise control, and now regret messing around with the cables even MORE than I did last night...

 

:4607:

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dirtrider
5 hours ago, Qball 16 said:

 

Thanks D.R.

 

The cables are definitely in the cam tracks, now...  They popped out on both sides when I turned the cams manually (checking their rotation), but I caught it before moving on!

 

I do have a GS-911 and was attempting the sync procedure with the steppers locked.  That said, I did have it running for a good 20 minutes last night with fans blowing hard, so it was definitely at full/normal operating temperature (hot)!

 

Excuse my ignorance - is the TPS re-learn a GS-911 procedure, or the "key on & twist the throttle lock-to-lock twice" procedure?

 

I do have cruise control, and now regret messing around with the cables even MORE than I did last night...

 

 

 

Evening Qball 16

 

You can do it either way, GS-911 has the ability.

 

Or, you can do a battery (+) disconnect for about 2 minutes, then re-connect battery (+),  then turn key on (do not start engine) then fully open & close throttle twice. (make sure that the L/H side TB WILL fully open & close from twist grip).

 

Check your PM's as I sent you some screen dumps or of the BMW service manual.  

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Mike T

Good post on this issue. I just checked my cams and both sides are cracked. 2006 R1200RT with 36K miles.  Did not want to be a member of 'crack club' but here I am. Just ordered the replacement cam/shafts from Bing. Will pay close attention to these posts for procedure to install new ones and set idle stop screw. I do have a GS911 so that may help.  Appreciate all the great info here.  

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blalor

I did mine last week. Both were cracked but still functional. 2007 R1200RT with 52k miles.  Pretty straightforward, thanks to the tips in this thread. I wish I’d thought to heat the cap on the right one; instead I used a dremel and some brute force, leaving a few marks, but nothing substantive. Having the right circlip pliers makes a big difference: you need small (1.2mm?) tips, and I found a nice set at Northern Tool for $30 or $40 (expensive for pliers, but they aren’t throwaway). I balanced the throttle bodies and didn’t see much of a difference. I bought a full complement of spares from Bing, but I wish I’d gotten circlips because I kind of munged the first one (before I bought better pliers). I’m able to manipulate the Oteiker (sp?) clamps with needle nose and small channel lock pliers. 

9D863F10-FFFE-4DDE-868A-FBB6B2FA4423.jpeg

FFF1D184-C5C9-4781-9D8D-F0E7E09A09F3.jpeg

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ed may

Hi all,  I have just joined the crack club.  Both sides.  I'm surprised I don't see any recent activity on this thread, am I missing something?  I was expecting some refined procedures and a recommendation on the best way to go if repairing yourself.  I havedecidedI don'twanttospend$1000++ for new throttle bodies.   I have also ruled out pressing new cams onto the old shafts.  So I was somewhat convinced to go with cams with shafts for $130,  But, before I order, I am slightly confused on the metal cam option and if it's a good idea.   

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dirtrider
54 minutes ago, ed may said:

Hi all,  I have just joined the crack club.  Both sides.  I'm surprised I don't see any recent activity on this thread, am I missing something?  I was expecting some refined procedures and a recommendation on the best way to go if repairing yourself.  I havedecidedI don'twanttospend$1000++ for new throttle bodies.   I have also ruled out pressing new cams onto the old shafts.  So I was somewhat convinced to go with cams with shafts for $130,  But, before I order, I am slightly confused on the metal cam option and if it's a good idea.   

Morning Ed

 

I haven't installed the metal cams as I don't know of any long term usage reports plus the high price.  

 

I have had good luck in installing the Bing cams/with shafts, not extremely difficult but you REALLY need to pay attention to the small details & do the pre-disassembly markings & measurements so they go back together in proper idle screw to throttle plate alignment.  

 

See this thread I did on cam/shaft replacement a while back__ I have since done a number of BMW 1200 cam/shaft replacements using the below method & so far all have worked out good. 

 

 https://www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/92006-posted-to-see-how-a-tb-shaft-install-how-to-reads-in-a-full-thread/

 

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Ponch
41 minutes ago, ed may said:

Hi all,  I have just joined the crack club.  Both sides.  I'm surprised I don't see any recent activity on this thread, am I missing something?  I was expecting some refined procedures and a recommendation on the best way to go if repairing yourself.  I havedecidedI don'twanttospend$1000++ for new throttle bodies.   I have also ruled out pressing new cams onto the old shafts.  So I was somewhat convinced to go with cams with shafts for $130,  But, before I order, I am slightly confused on the metal cam option and if it's a good idea.   

 

I think the metal cam would be easier to do. They didn't exist when mine broke and neither did the replacements from Bing. This is really should be covered under a recall, but I digress...I found a set of used throttle bodies for something like 220 bucks or something like that. If I was doing it again, I'd probably go metal? IDK. Bing would be cheaper and I do have the old ones, so I could do that and then just swap. BMW and their horrific plastic. 

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TEDZ

Has this shown up as a Camhead issue?  Had a Hexhead and this always concerned me.  I've got a Camhead now, 2013.

Thanks

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ed may

HI all, I replaced both throttle cams/shafts on my 06 RT today.  Thanks to Dirtrider for all the tips.  I am going to give a bunch of feedback here, post repair.  If someone can benefit from it, great.  I will do multiple posts because of the picture size limit.  The first picture shows how I got the metal cover off the right side throttle body. It's really tough to get off, I couldn't pry it off.  I got a new one with my order from Bing, glad I did.  I used a dremel to cut a relief in the cap.  If you do this, you have to be REALLY careful not to cut into the throttle body housing.  Go a little at a time and inspect with a magnifying glass.  When it's close, you can break it off with a small screwdriver wedged under the cut and tapping it with a very small hammer.  The second picture shows cracks at 3 o clock on the top one and at 3 and 9 o clock on the bottom one.  The cracks did not go through to the other side as far as I could see.  The 3rd picture shows the band clamps used on the boots.  There are 2 sets of pinch points for the tool.   The TOP 2 pinch points are for RELEASING the band clamp.  The BOTTOM 2 points in my picture are for re connecting the clamp, you will hear it snap back into itself.  

 

20210311_143310.jpg

20210311_183447.jpg

20210311_135153.jpg

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ed may

Here we have the throttle cable release procedure.  It took me a minute to figure it out, I can see some people struggling with this or breaking it if you don't know how to do it.  You just have to pry the clip out a little to release the cable adjuster/base.  The clip catches that groove at the bottom of the adjuster base.  

20210311_140453.jpg

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ed may

Ok, well I can't upload more pictures, I guess the system adds them up from multiple posts.  I'll try to load more after someone responds to this, maybe it will let me do more then.  Anywho, I can explain some more things without pictures.  It may seem obvious, but you will need to take the ducts off the air box that go to the throttle bodies.  I thought for a second I could sneak the throttle bodies out without taking that duct off, but it would be tough.  It's a lot easier to just take them off.  The clips at the air box end are a little tricky because of the angle and the rear tupperware in the way.  I did take a few of the rear tupperware bolts out to be able to pry the tupperware out of the way a little by the clamp.   It's harder to get those pinch point pliers in there that have the points at the end that you use for the other clamps on the throttle bodies.  They are similar to the clamps on the throttle bodies, but slightly different.  I used a 45 degree long needle nose to squeeze them and release them.  When going back together, you have to make sure the 2 cutouts at the end of the clamp catch on the 2 raised triangles to grab it correctly.  You will most likely have to help them along a little to catch.  The ones on the throttle bodies snap right back to the locked position by themselves as long as you use the right pinch points.  

Next, I used .0015 feeler gauges at the top and bottom of my throttle plates, that was enough to raise the cam stop about  .0015 off the idle set screw.  This worked on both sides.  You will be inserting the feeler gauges into the larger side of the throttle body that goes to the airbox.  Be careful not to stick the feeler gauges into the bore too far, there is a lip about a 1/2" past the throttle plate, if you stick the feeler gauges in to far they will rest on that lip and most likely prevent the feeler gauge to bend correctly to the arc of the bore as it's pinched by the closed throttle plate.   When going back together you have to play with the throttle plate a little to keep it from binding in the bore as you are getting it into place, open the throttle cam/shaft ALL the way, this will help it go in smoother.  The .0015 feeler gauges on the plates and at the gap by the idle stop screw were consistent on reassembly on both sides.  

Next, I took a ride before tear down to get readings at operating temp.  The idle actuator positions were 88 and 76.  After the repair,  again at operating temp, they were at 36 and 18.  Big difference.  The only way I can explain that is that when you clean the bore, there will be a little buildup of gunk, restricting a smidge of air, causing a higher idle stepper adjustment, post repair/after the bore is clean, there will be a smidge more air getting past, which would require a lower idle stepper adjustment.  This is only a theory.  (I only used a damp cloth, this was enough to clean it out without using any chemical spray at all)  It ran perfect after the repair, so I'm not worried about the difference in numbers.  The idle steppers are there to make a fine adjustment for engine/ throttle body wear and gunk buildup.  as long as they are within a working range, (not bottomed out or at zero or at some {unkown} top limit).

I will also mention that I used the twinmax before and after the repair, and it was about the same both times at idle, 1500 and 2500 rpm.  

Well I guess that's all for now, if I think of anything else, I will post.

All in all, it's really not that difficult of a job.  I definitely felt better that I had the GS-911 to scan data before and after to view idle stepper values pre and post repair.  

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Hati

Thanks for making observations. I have a set in the mail for my '06, so I have been brushing up on DR's threads about this process.

 

One difference I found from the previous services I've done on this bike is that I had no trouble getting the TB out from the "grips' of the rubber ducts. Never felt the need to remove the top one from the air box. My usual way to remove them was to pinch the top duct and simply pull out the TB.

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Ponch
4 hours ago, Hati said:

Thanks for making observations. I have a set in the mail for my '06, so I have been brushing up on DR's threads about this process.

 

One difference I found from the previous services I've done on this bike is that I had no trouble getting the TB out from the "grips' of the rubber ducts. Never felt the need to remove the top one from the air box. My usual way to remove them was to pinch the top duct and simply pull out the TB.

 

You don't use a low profile oetiker clamp plier? It makes it a lot easier to remove the throttle bodies. 

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Hati
5 hours ago, Ponch said:

 

You don't use a low profile oetiker clamp plier? It makes it a lot easier to remove the throttle bodies. 

 

Yes I do, I was referring to removing the airbox to TB rubber duct first.

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ed may

FYI, I put a 100 miles on it today.  Runs perfect.  

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dirtrider
On 3/13/2021 at 7:18 PM, ed may said:

FYI, I put a 100 miles on it today.  Runs perfect.  

Morning Ed

 

After you get a few hundred miles on that bike can you do another hot engine  idle stepper position check (check right after the long ride before engine has a chance to cool off).

 

I'm curious to know where your commanded stepper counts end up after they settle in & re-learn.    

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Joe Frickin' Friday

Spotted this thread late last week, so today I pulled the tupperware off for a look.

 

2009 R1200RT, 49K miles.  Left pulley (viewed in mirror):

 

image.png.85f05996755cecd7e6b00a806a5ce679.png

 

Right pulley (also viewed through mirror):

 

image.thumb.png.da616c87fc52e44d0ace45e65e5b7713.png

 

Now I gotta study this thread to see how to go about this budget-friendly fix...

 

Biggest challenge so far?  Holding a flashlight, mirror and cell phone all at the same time and getting them lined up for favorable framing and lighting.  Took almost as long as removing the tupperware...

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9Mary7

Has anyone had this issue with a Camhead yet? My 05 Hexhead does, haven't checked the 2011 yet.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
On 5/6/2019 at 10:17 AM, Ponch said:

 

two years later, this ebay listing doesn't exist anymore.  "El Cheapo" pliers can be found here (and probably lots of other places):

 

https://www.amazon.com/TJ-Longda-Oetikers-Profile-Product/dp/B00GA8X2OC

 

Dirtrider, thanks for all your pioneering work to figure this stuff out.  Can you explain why recording and matching stepper motor counts before/after the repair is important?  Afterwards, as long as the steppers are able to find themselves a happy home within their range of possible movement, isn't that all we're looking for, even if it's not exactly the same as before the repair?

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dirtrider
1 hour ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

two years later, this ebay listing doesn't exist anymore.  "El Cheapo" pliers can be found here (and probably lots of other places):

 

https://www.amazon.com/TJ-Longda-Oetikers-Profile-Product/dp/B00GA8X2OC

 

Dirtrider, thanks for all your pioneering work to figure this stuff out.  Can you explain why recording and matching stepper motor counts before/after the repair is important?  Afterwards, as long as the steppers are able to find themselves a happy home within their range of possible movement, isn't that all we're looking for, even if it's not exactly the same as before the repair?

Morning Mitch

 

The stepper count before & after is just a verification that the throttle plates are re-installed fairly close to where they were before the work started. (confirms base idle throttle plate air-by-pass).

 

Remember, the steppers are used for a lot more than JUST hot engine idle control/

 

You sort of want the hot engine idle stepper count to be close to where it was if possible as the steppers are initially  commanded to a specific count for cold starting/cold fast idle. If they are way low or way high in their "happy range"  then that could effect cold starting (very cold morning), or allow a start/stall right after cold start if the after-work idle stepper count is a lot higher as that means the cold stepper commanded position  would not allow enough closed throttle air flow pre-start & just after cold start.

 

The steppers are also used  as a throttle follower (anti-stall dropped-throttle dash-pot)  so they can effect the above idle cross side balance if they are grossly different once locked & following the throttle movement.   

 

It's not the end of the world if the post shaft install stepper count is slightly different but the closer they are ( after to before ) then the better the thing will run when operating in non-active-controlled,   fixed stepper count conditions. 

 

I have done enough new shaft installs now to say that--__ IF the feeler stock is used precisely and with great care on the  before & after measurements, and the throttle plates are scribed with precision, then reinstalled exactly to the scribed lines,  and IF the shafts are centered correctly (so air doesn't by-pass the throttle plate ends),  then the stepper count should be pretty close on the finished job.  

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Joe Frickin' Friday
52 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

I have done enough new shaft installs now to say that--__ IF the feeler stock is used precisely and with great care on the  before & after measurements, and the throttle plates are scribed with precision, then reinstalled exactly to the scribed lines,  and IF the shafts are centered correctly (so air doesn't by-pass the throttle plate ends),  then the stepper count should be pretty close on the finished job.  

 

OK, thanks for the clarification.  

 

You expressed concern upthread about the ability of thicker feeler gauges to adequately conform to the curvature of the throttle bore.  Stacking multiple thin gauges (e.g. a pair of 0.0015" gauges to measure a 0.003" clearance) would facilitate better conformance, but is there some reason not to do this?  I mean maybe we get stackup error if we're trying to come up with an absolute measurement (as e.g. for valve clearance checks), but in this case we just need the same relative measurement before/after the spindle/cam swap, so wouldn't a stack of thin feeler gauges be OK here?

 

Am I correct in understanding that the TPS does not need to be removed from the left TB for this whole job?

 

On 5/1/2019 at 6:27 PM, dirtrider said:

Last one that I did I used my etched lines on the throttle plate to align the throttle plate clocking orientation then used a couple of lengths of .001" shim stock on each side of the closed throttle plate to hold/force plate centering while snugging down the screws.

 

If we're going to use shim stock to ultimately center the plate in the bore, then do we really need the lines on the plate?  I guess we're just using the lines to establish the correct angular orientation of the plate (with respect to the spindle), and we're using the shim stock to establish correct radial position?

 

So the basic procedure I'm gleaning from this thread is this:

 

  1. GS-911, record both stepper motor positions for hot-idle.
  2. Remove left TB from bike, scratch spindle reference lines on throttle plate.
  3. Insert feeler gauges at top and bottom of throttle plate, whatever's needed to almost lift throttle off of idle set screw.  Note required thicknesses.  Also note brightness of flashlight through gap at edge of throttle plate (maybe take a picture?).
  4. Remove throttle plate, swap out spindle/cam assembly.
  5. Install throttle plate, with screws not quite snug.
  6. Adjust rotation of throttle plate (around throttle bore axis) so reference lines are visibly parallel with spindle.
  7. Insert same feeler gauges from step 3, tighten throttle plate screws.  (Loctite?  Approx. torque spec?).  Maybe take flashlight pic again, compare to pic from step 3.
  8. Put left TB back on bike.
  9. Forget/relearn TPS min/max.  
  10. GS-911,  check stepper motor positions for hot-idle; should be very close to step one.   If they're not...:dontknow:
  11. Repeat steps 2-11 for right TB.

Does all of that sound about right?  

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dirtrider

Morning Mitch

 

You expressed concern upthread about the ability of thicker feeler gauges to adequately conform to the curvature of the throttle bore.  Stacking multiple thin gauges (e.g. a pair of 0.0015" gauges to measure a 0.003" clearance) would facilitate better conformance, but is there some reason not to do this?  I mean maybe we get stackup error if we're trying to come up with an absolute measurement (as e.g. for valve clearance checks), but in this case we just need the same relative measurement before/after the spindle/cam swap, so wouldn't a stack of thin feeler gauges be OK here?-- Yes it might work with a stack  but you need to be pretty darn precise so any unseen, or unfelt, air gap in the center of the curved stack could REALLY effect getting precise results.  So far .0015" has been working for most but if an outlier job requires thicker then the end result could depend on feeler stock conformity. 

 

Am I correct in understanding that the TPS does not need to be removed from the left TB for this whole job?--- It does need to be removed so it -- ALSO has to be precisely scribed

 

 

If we're going to use shim stock to ultimately center the plate in the bore, then do we really need the lines on the plate? -- In a word, YES!!

 

I guess we're just using the lines to establish the correct angular orientation of the plate (with respect to the spindle), and we're using the shim stock to establish correct radial position?-- Probably so with a perfectly round throttle plate but keep in mind that throttle plates are slightly oval so they properly seal when closed at an angle. You REALLY want those plates back in EXACTLY how they were before removal. Color the area then do scribe them. Also keep in mind that the throttle plate screw holes are larger than the retaining screws so there is a lot or room for clocking error if not pre-scribed.

 

So the basic procedure I'm gleaning from this thread is this:

 

  1. GS-911, record both stepper motor positions for hot-idle.
  2. Remove left TB from bike, scratch spindle reference lines on throttle plate.
  3. Insert feeler gauges at top and bottom of throttle plate, whatever's needed to almost lift throttle off of idle set screw.  Note required thicknesses.  Also note brightness of flashlight through gap at edge of throttle plate (maybe take a picture?).
  4. Remove throttle plate, swap out spindle/cam assembly.
  5. Install throttle plate, with screws not quite snug.
  6. Adjust rotation of throttle plate (around throttle bore axis) so reference lines are visibly parallel with spindle.
  7. Insert same feeler gauges from step 3, tighten throttle plate screws.  (Loctite?  Approx. torque spec?).  Maybe take flashlight pic again, compare to pic from step 3.
  8. Put left TB back on bike.
  9. Forget/relearn TPS min/max.  
  10. GS-911,  check stepper motor positions for hot-idle; should be very close to step one.   If they're not...:dontknow:
  11. Repeat steps 2-11 for right TB.

Does all of that sound about right?  All but adding of pre-scribing then removing the TPS sensor from the L/H side.  

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Ponch
3 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

two years later, this ebay listing doesn't exist anymore.  "El Cheapo" pliers can be found here (and probably lots of other places):

 

https://www.amazon.com/TJ-Longda-Oetikers-Profile-Product/dp/B00GA8X2OC

 

Dirtrider, thanks for all your pioneering work to figure this stuff out.  Can you explain why recording and matching stepper motor counts before/after the repair is important?  Afterwards, as long as the steppers are able to find themselves a happy home within their range of possible movement, isn't that all we're looking for, even if it's not exactly the same as before the repair?

 

Mine are similar. They work and are better than using some other ersatz plier. 

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Indy Dave
13 minutes ago, Ponch said:

 

Mine are similar. They work and are better than using some other ersatz plier. 

 Which pair are you using, Ponch?

 

EDIT: NEVERMIND! I see you were referring to your earlier post that Mitch cited about the ebay listing.

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