Throttle Body "MORE" cracked cable cams/pulleys

[Ponch]

8 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Evening KDeline

 

No, I'm not totally sure what causes the failure but it seems that age & heat cycles seem to be a big contributor.

 

Just not a very good design as the plastic not only cracks, but due to the way the plastic is molded on once they crack the 3 pass through attachments to the lever  cause a camming effect to make them split off even easier. 

 

You do have the option to send your throttle bodies to Bing USA to have the cams or cams+shafts replaced but they don't do any measuring as they just take your money,  install the new parts, then pat you on the butt & send your TB's back.

 

There is also an aluminum cam deal that go on over you existing levers (once the old plastic is totally removed). You can do it yourself or send the TB's to the company & have them do it. Not cheap but a lot less $$$$  than new TB's.

 

This should be a recall deal as it is dangerous but so far nothing is being done, probably not enough riders have reported it as the same failure issue.

 

I reported it and there were 3-4 others. Thing is, when I approached BMW about it, it was the standard, first we heard of that, which is BS. I agree with the heat. I was an early adopter and I live in AZ now. I know I am butt hurt about this, but shame on BMW. I got used TBs and if these go, I still have the originals. 

[KDeline]

15 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Evening KDeline

 

No, I'm not totally sure what causes the failure but it seems that age & heat cycles seem to be a big contributor.

 

Just not a very good design as the plastic not only cracks, but due to the way the plastic is molded on once they crack the 3 pass through attachments to the lever  cause a camming effect to make them split off even easier. 

 

You do have the option to send your throttle bodies to Bing USA to have the cams or cams+shafts replaced but they don't do any measuring as they just take your money,  install the new parts, then pat you on the butt & send your TB's back.

 

There is also an aluminum cam deal that go on over you existing levers (once the old plastic is totally removed). You can do it yourself or send the TB's to the company & have them do it. Not cheap but a lot less $$$$  than new TB's. (you basically get what you get)

 

This should be a recall deal as it is dangerous but so far nothing is being done, probably not enough riders have reported it as the same type failure issue.

Meant to ask do you think the feeling of a slight miss or surge was caused by cracked cams? Wondering if they were badly cracked when purchased, and that is why I could never smooth it out. Since I have other 2009's would be nice to know if this is a warning symptom. 

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, KDeline said:

Meant to ask do you think the feeling of a slight miss or surge was caused by cracked cams? Wondering if they were badly cracked when purchased, and that is why I could never smooth it out. Since I have other 2009's would be nice to know if this is a warning symptom. 

Morning  KDeline

 

Not impossible but highly unlikely that slight miss or surge was caused by cracked cams. That 1200 miss is usually a lean fueling issue, on most it is usually more heard in the exhaust sound than actually felt by the rider. 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

16 hours ago, Ponch said:

I reported it and there were 3-4 others.

 

Seems like every one of us who has replaced cracked throttle cams (whether we got stranded or not) ought to be reporting this.

 

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

 

You can upload pictures directly with your report, or you can put them into a PowerPoint file, where you can add notes and arrows.  You can't upload a PowerPoint file, but you can convert it to a PDF file for free here, and then you can upload the PDF.

 

[Ponch]

2 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Seems like every one of us who has replaced cracked throttle cams (whether we got stranded or not) ought to be reporting this.

 

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

 

You can upload pictures directly with your report, or you can put them into a PowerPoint file, where you can add notes and arrows.  You can't upload a PowerPoint file, but you can convert it to a PDF file for free here, and then you can upload the PDF.

 

I reported mine, so I did my part. At the time, I couldn't get replacement cams and there wasn't the metal one's yet, so I bought a used set off a 20k mile salvage bike. BMW was like, have a dealer fix it and submit the receipt and we might do something. Or not. Right. At the time it was a $1400 repair. I did it for 235 and that was with buying the pliers. I didn't ride the bike for a while after fixing it though. I was that pissed. 

[wbw6cos]

When those fail while riding, does that mean the throttle body butterflies return to idle, or will they cause it to stick whatever the throttle position is at when the failure occurs?  Thanks.

[dirtrider]

51 minutes ago, wbw6cos said:

When those fail while riding, does that mean the throttle body butterflies return to idle, or will they cause it to stick whatever the throttle position is at when the failure occurs?  Thanks.

Afternoon   wbw6cos

 

The side that breaks returns to idle.     If that is the L/H side then you have no fueling on either side above idle. If the R/H side breaks then you will have a little power from the L/H cylinder but the R/H side will stay at idle (air flow wise) but over-fuel to the L/H side throttle position. (pretty well un-rideabel either way)   

[Ponch]

37 minutes ago, wbw6cos said:

When those fail while riding, does that mean the throttle body butterflies return to idle, or will they cause it to stick whatever the throttle position is at when the failure occurs?  Thanks.

Mine went to idle and I was on a road where it was 65mph speed limit. I had to call a tow. 

[wbw6cos]

I had a thought of those breaking and causing it to get stuck in WOT position.  Good to know.   Thanks!

[9Mary7]

Just filed a complaint for my 2005. I'll get my 2011 on the lift this week and have a look at it as well.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

4 hours ago, wbw6cos said:

I had a thought of those breaking and causing it to get stuck in WOT position.  Good to know.   Thanks!

 

That would be quite a bit worse, but the NHTSA still takes a dim view of failures that cause loss of power.  I had a car fixed under recall once because there was a potential for a sensor failure that could cause the engine to stall.  I'm a little surprised that there was never a recall for the HES failure that bedeviled the '96-'01 oilheads.  Maybe not enough people reported the issue at the time?

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

That would be quite a bit worse, but the NHTSA still takes a dim view of failures that cause loss of power.  I had a car fixed under recall once because there was a potential for a sensor failure that could cause the engine to stall.  I'm a little surprised that there was never a recall for the HES failure that bedeviled the '96-'01 oilheads.  Maybe not enough people reported the issue at the time?

Morning Mitch

 

In the past NHTSA hasn't given much importance to motorcycle problems. But even when they did take notice they had problems correlating reported issues into a single failure type.  That is partially due to NHTSA not having defined failure options but also due to BMW & BMW riders using different names for failed parts.

 

It could go a long way towards getting BMW motorcycle recalls started & monitored if major BMW groups like MOA etc would have a reporting forum that had a how-to-report & how-to-word the report so all similar safety related BMW failures would all be worded about the same & reported under the same heading to NHTSA.  

 

Just look at the BMW HES, most older BMW riders simply call it an HES, or Hall Effect Sensor, official BMW service manual  calls it a "magnetic gate", or "magnetic sensor", & the parts manual calls it an "ignition sensor".   

 

The other possibility  was, even with the number of HES failures most failed at next morning engine starting not while riding. A few did actually fail while riding but some of those didn't cause a total quit just a poor running engine acting like it was running out of gasoline.

 

These 1200 hexhead throttle cams are probably something NHTSA should be, or would be, interested in as they could easily cause a death if one should break pulling out in front of traffic, or  leaving the rider without engine power on a high speed freeway without a safe place to pull off. But how many broken 1200 throttle cams have actually been reported to NHTSA, then just as important, how many were reported in the same category, as the exact same failure, using the same name for failed parts, causing the same possible dangerous condition?   

 

Then how does NHTSA even track these throttle cam failures as most were replaced at home, or using used throttle bodies or as full new throttle bodies at a BMW dealer.  

 

It's starting to show but how many 1200 riders are now riding with cracked throttle cams with potential failure that don't even know they have the cracked cams?  If NHTSA would get involved they could force BMW to issue an inspection recall. BMW is just holding their breath hoping these 1200 bikes get old enough to die a natural death before they are forced into a recall situation.

 

You need to remember that automobiles are for senators daughters, their grandkids, & re-election voters so they get attention, but motorcycles are for crazies with a death wish so they get the blind eye.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[9Mary7]

Soooooo, got my Camhead on the lift and found cracked throttle cams, just like my '05 Hexhead. Will file a complaint today.

[Tech1]

Another pair; it looks like both have cracks on my 2005 RT, 32K miles.

 

es.

[9Mary7]

Please make sure you file a complaint with NHTSA

[Tech1]

NHTSA is done!  Not much hope because of the age, but maybe?  Still it may put some heat on BMW and Bing for this poor design choice.  Hopefully they learn.

 

I will be ordering the pulley cams from Bing.  Is any of the other hardware they list needed, suggested, or "just in case"?

DirtRider, thanks for the excellent write up on the methods to keep things as close to the same as possible.

[dirtrider]

49 minutes ago, Tech1 said:

NHTSA is done!  Not much hope because of the age, but maybe?  Still it may put some heat on BMW and Bing for this poor design choice.  Hopefully they learn.

 

I will be ordering the pulley cams from Bing.  Is any of the other hardware they list needed, suggested, or "just in case"?

DirtRider, thanks for the excellent write up on the methods to keep things as close to the same as possible.

Afternoon Tech1

 

You might order that cap that goes over the R/H throttle  shaft open end, I haven't had a lot of problems getting that darn thing off but some have & it can surely fight you, so for the little cost might want to have a new one handy just in case.  

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

15 hours ago, Tech1 said:

I will be ordering the pulley cams from Bing.  Is any of the other hardware they list needed, suggested, or "just in case"?

 

 

The various other bits and pieces are low cost, so as long as you've got the throttle bodies apart, it's not a bad idea to have all new hardware on hand.  

 

15 hours ago, dirtrider said:

You might order that cap that goes over the R/H throttle  shaft open end, I haven't had a lot of problems getting that darn thing off but some have & it can surely fight you, so for the little cost might want to have a new one handy just in case.  

 

I tried briefly to pry my old one off, but I could see that the most likely outcome was to just hack up the aluminum throttle body.  Someone upthread used a Dremel to gingerly cut through their cap to free it up; I opted for a hand file to gradually grind my way through one side of my cap, allowing me to visually gauge progress and see when my file just started to get through the steel cap.  Dremel is certainly much faster, but man, you gotta be careful not to hack into the aluminum just under the cap.

[Tech1]

13 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

I tried briefly to pry my old one off, but I could see that the most likely outcome was to just hack up the aluminum throttle body.  Someone upthread used a Dremel to gingerly cut through their cap to free it up; I opted for a hand file to gradually grind my way through one side of my cap, allowing me to visually gauge progress and see when my file just started to get through the steel cap.  Dremel is certainly much faster, but man, you gotta be careful not to hack into the aluminum just under the cap.

 

Thanks, I think I may try prying with a small pry tool I have, then if it doesn't look easy, I will try the file.

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, Tech1 said:

 

Thanks, I think I may try prying with a small pry tool I have, then if it doesn't look easy, I will try the file.

Morning  Tech1

 

Those caps don't just slide off even with dedicated prying, you need to pry around the caps best you can by prying on alternate sides continually. The cap will usually work off in very/very small increments as you keep prying on alternate sides. Once you get it moving a little then it will start coming off easier.    

[The Rocketman]

At about 55,000 miles on my 2009 R1200RT I read this thread and think it's about time I check to see if my pulleys are cracked. Would you please tell me where and how to look once I have all the tupperware removed?  I've seen many photos of the pulleys & TBs, but none yet that answer my question so I can use the mirror and see them. Thanks.

[aggieengineer]

Here is a right side throttle body removed from the bike. Perhaps this will make sense when you look at yours. Hope it helps.

[9Mary7]

With the bodywork removed, the throttle cable cams are on the inside of the throttle bodies. Trace your throttle cables down to the plastic shield, this will slide up the cable so that a mirror placed up from under the TB's on the engine side will show you the plastic cams.

[The Rocketman]

Thanks. I'll have a look in there soon and see what's up.

[The Rocketman]

Well.....I pulled the right side plastic off my '09 RT this morning, and I guess there was no need to continue on to the left side......ugggh!

Would you suggest that if I don't want to get involved in base idle screws and any other adjustments, that I purchase the Bing unit with attached shaft, Bing unit without the shaft, or Beemer Bits alloy without the shaft? Assuming the originals lasted 12 years and 55,000 miles, plastic replacements would be sufficient.

Also, anyone here who has done this on their bike and lives within a couple of hours of Long Island up for doing this a second time? I'd be happy to make the road trip and will bring the parts with me, assuming its a one day repair and you have the time and desire. (Plus I've had my 2nd Covid shot, and I'm generally a pleasant person to hang with .)

 

[dirtrider]

26 minutes ago, The Rocketman said:

Well.....I pulled the right side plastic off my '09 RT this morning, and I guess there was no need to continue on to the left side......ugggh!

Would you suggest that if I don't want to get involved in base idle screws and any other adjustments, that I purchase the Bing unit with attached shaft, Bing unit without the shaft, or Beemer Bits alloy without the shaft? Assuming the originals lasted 12 years and 55,000 miles, plastic replacements would be sufficient.

Also, anyone here who has done this on their bike and lives within a couple of hours of Long Island up for doing this a second time? I'd be happy to make the road trip and will bring the parts with me, assuming its a one day repair and you have the time and desire. (Plus I've had my 2nd Covid shot, and I'm generally a pleasant person to hang with .)

 

Afternoon The Rocketman

 

Yep, those need attention pretty quickly. 

 

Both the Bing USA cams or Bing USA shaft/cams will need involvement in base idle measurements. 

 

The  "Beemer Bits alloy" get installed on your bare throttle arms after you remove the plastic outer cams so those don't mess with the base idle. 

 

 

[The Rocketman]

Thanks very much for the advice. Assuming I can’t find anyone to volunteer to assist, are there any detailed instructions on just how to remove the plastic outer cams, and can these be removed without removing the shafts?

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, The Rocketman said:

Thanks very much for the advice. Assuming I can’t find anyone to volunteer to assist, are there any detailed instructions on just how to remove the plastic outer cams, and can these be removed without removing the shafts?

Afternoon The Rocketman

 

If this in reference to installing the "Beemer Bits alloy" cams then you should be able to CAREFULLY & SLOWLY remove the plastic factory cams down to the bare levers. 

 

You will have to remove the throttle bodies to do that as the cams are on the back side of the throttle bodies.

[The Rocketman]

Got it. Thanks again.

[The Rocketman]

NHTSA complaint filed.

[wbw6cos]

Ouch!!

 

During the Wethead Tech Demo at START, Boxflyer had some throttle bodies with cracked pulleys on them.   One of the cracks was pretty small - hardly noticeable compared to yours, Larry.

 

Hope you get it sorted.   

[The Rocketman]

I will. I'm going to order the Beemer Bits alloy ones since they will most likely outlive me, and won't require any other adjustments afterwards. Will enlist the help of a friend who has a local bike repair shop and tools. I feel better having a second set of eyes doing this, unless I find someone here to assist first. Beemer Bits only has one set left in stock, as they said they just shipped 8 sets to Japan yesterday, but they should have more in a week or so.

I did a 325 mile ride last weekend not knowing about this. I've put maybe 40,000 miles on the bike since I got it, and don't know how long the cracks have been there. Now that I've seen it, I'm hesitant to ride the bike until its repaired. And I didn't even bother to look at the left side. Guess its a good thing I have a few bikes to pick from. As much as folks rag on our R1200C's with all their shortcomings, at least they don't have cheap, crap plastic throttle cable cams.

[Tech1]

After placing an order online with Bing for just the pulleys and the right side cap, they called me the next day suggesting I purchase the assembled pulleys and shafts.  They said they now get them assembled from Bing, with screws and washers to hold the pulleys in place instead of swedging.  They used to drill and tap the shafts themselves to add screws to hold the pulleys to the shafts, but now they get them already done from the factory.  Of course they also suggested new throttle plate screws and the clip just in case it is damaged.  I bit their suggestion and will receive them complete with all of the replacement parts.  Probably not necessary, but still a lot cheaper than some of the other options.

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, Tech1 said:

After placing an order online with Bing for just the pulleys and the right side cap, they called me the next day suggesting I purchase the assembled pulleys and shafts.  They said they now get them assembled from Bing, with screws and washers to hold the pulleys in place instead of swedging.  They used to drill and tap the shafts themselves to add screws to hold the pulleys to the shafts, but now they get them already done from the factory.  Of course they also suggested new throttle plate screws and the clip just in case it is damaged.  I bit their suggestion and will receive them complete with all of the replacement parts.  Probably not necessary, but still a lot cheaper than some of the other options.

Morning Tech1

 

Getting the shafts with cams already pre-installed is a good idea as it is very easy to slightly bend the old shafts removing or installing the new cams.  Bent shafts really complicate getting it back to where it was as far as idle air flow goes.

[KDeline]

On 4/28/2021 at 4:16 PM, The Rocketman said:

NHTSA complaint filed.

Mine also....

 

[The Rocketman]

My new cams shipped out from Beemer Bits yesterday.

[The Rocketman]

In today's mail. I'll let you know how the install goes.

 

 

[The Rocketman]

Both my cracked plastic throttle cable cam/pulleys were replaced last week with the alloy ones from Beemer Bits. Couple of hour job and they work and look fine. Following the printed instructions that came with the cams, and watching the video first helped a lot. And a second set of hands does wonders, especially since drilling through the cam and throttle body plate thing needs to be pretty precise (especially the depth) and the TB is kind of awkward to hold while drilling. All in all, a fine product which will most likely outlive both me and my bike.

[9Mary7]

Good to hear, thanks for the update.

[KDeline]

 

 

My second motorcycles cams...... A few more to go. This is getting expensive. 

 

 

[KDeline]

Three for three. Third motorcycle, six broken or cracked cams. Two more to check/repair. This is the bike I’m taking next week to White Falls for the MOA rally. Was a disaster waiting to happen. Beyond pissed at this point. 

[Ponch]

BMW should step up on this one. It's ridiculous. 

[Tech1]

I sure agree about BMW stepping up.  Bing must supply other manufacturers, are they having trouble with this?

 

I had an issue after replacing mine, I must not have done a good job measuring and it was definitely out of sync at idle.  I didn't have access to a GS911 before I started, I wish I had so I would have had a baseline.  I was able to borrow one over the past weekend to help me fix it and boy did I get it right!  It now idles smoother than it ever has!  I tried something when warming it up to get it to idle better and it seemed to help; I connected the two throttle body hose connections together as a balance tube.  When warmed up, I did a quick rough check when I closed the throttle with a manometer and I needed to open the right throttle plate, closed the left a little, got real close on manometer and let it thoroughly warm up.  Checked the steppers and they were dropping as it warmed up.  I did play around a little with running it till hot, adjusting, let it cool, would check the stepper counts and repeat.  I got a bit nervous when the steppers were down in the single digits when hot, but they were equal, so I closed both idle stops a half a turn to bring the stepper counts back up some.  I shut it off, let it cool down, restarted and took it for a spin.  I immediately hooked it back up when back from a 15 minute ride, steppers were equal at about 60 and dropping as it got hotter running in the garage, it was only in the 60's while riding, it probably was loosening up as it got hotter.

I might have got lucky, but it starts good, idles great, and the cable sync is right on too.  I understand what they are doing with the fixed throttle stops and the steppers, but connecting the two hose connections between the two could also help balance the idle somewhat for minor discrepancies.  , I am surprised they don't do that.  The vapor cannister could tee into the balance tube also.

 

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, Tech1 said:

I sure agree about BMW stepping up.  Bing must supply other manufacturers, are they having trouble with this?

 

I had an issue after replacing mine, I must not have done a good job measuring and it was definitely out of sync at idle.  I didn't have access to a GS911 before I started, I wish I had so I would have had a baseline.  I was able to borrow one over the past weekend to help me fix it and boy did I get it right!  It now idles smoother than it ever has!  I tried something when warming it up to get it to idle better and it seemed to help; I connected the two throttle body hose connections together as a balance tube.  When warmed up, I did a quick rough check when I closed the throttle with a manometer and I needed to open the right throttle plate, closed the left a little, got real close on manometer and let it thoroughly warm up.  Checked the steppers and they were dropping as it warmed up.  I did play around a little with running it till hot, adjusting, let it cool, would check the stepper counts and repeat.  I got a bit nervous when the steppers were down in the single digits when hot, but they were equal, so I closed both idle stops a half a turn to bring the stepper counts back up some.  I shut it off, let it cool down, restarted and took it for a spin.  I immediately hooked it back up when back from a 15 minute ride, steppers were equal at about 60 and dropping as it got hotter running in the garage, it was only in the 60's while riding, it probably was loosening up as it got hotter.

I might have got lucky, but it starts good, idles great, and the cable sync is right on too.  I understand what they are doing with the fixed throttle stops and the steppers, but connecting the two hose connections between the two could also help balance the idle somewhat for minor discrepancies.  , I am surprised they don't do that.  The vapor cannister could tee into the balance tube also.

 

Morning Tech1

 

There is valid reason BMW dropped the common (combined) purge on the stepper controlled engines.

 

Just keep in mind that a cross-side balance tube only works correctly when the steppers are linked to the same commanded counts on each side.

 

When the steppers go independent a balance tube can allow the stepper side to side off-set to keep creeping apart as it slowly grabs air from the stepper on the opposite side. 

 

For a crossover tube to work correctly on an engine with independent stepper control they usually use a single central mounted stepper with large enough diameter tubing to allow the full stepper air flow through the tubing. 

 

Probably doesn't make a lot of difference on the 1200 hexhead  for most riders as the small diameter purge hose doesn't flow very much air (especially with very little negative pressure delta between sides), fairly long hosing, & the 360° firing engine causing opposite intake pulses at curb idle so they kind of deadhead the air flow inside the long tubing.  Plus the hexhead drops independent stepper control a lot during riding operation so they become linked that then allows any stepper offset grow-apart to start over. 

 

The 1200 motorcycles that could really suffer from a small diameter cross-over balance tube are ones that idle for long periods in independent stepper control (like police bikes that remain idling for long periods to keep the electrics alive).    

 

Hook a U tube manometer to both side throttle bodies, whatever the inches of H2o difference is between sides, that is the amount of negative pressure available to pull air through that long small diameter balance tube (hopefully not very much at all). 

 

Bottom line: 

 

In linked stepper control a balance tube can work OK.

 

In independent stepper control a balance tube is not something that you really want (at least for very long).

 

 

 

[KDeline]

Interesting observation. All of this fuss about how to perform the repair has stopped me from attempting it. Two dealers, Orlando and Barrington Illinois that have repaired mine simply pulled it apart. No checking, measuring, marking or anything that I can tell, was cleaned, slap the new parts in, center the flapper by eye and put it back together. Sync, reset adaptations and all three bikes run well right off. They tolerated me watching from a distance. Less then 3 hours including plastic removal. Makes me think I might try the next one. What could possible go wrong...........

[dirtrider]

10 minutes ago, KDeline said:

Interesting observation. All of this fuss about how to perform the repair has stopped me from attempting it. Two dealers, Orlando and Barrington Illinois that have repaired mine simply pulled it apart. No checking, measuring, marking or anything that I can tell, was cleaned, slap the new parts in, center the flapper by eye and put it back together. Sync, reset adaptations and all three bikes run well right off. They tolerated me watching from a distance. Less then 3 hours including plastic removal. Makes me think I might try the next one. What could possible go wrong...........

Morning  KDeline

 

The biggest thing that could go wrong is your calibrated eye verses a tec that has already done a number of them, been through all the pitfalls, & now has a good feel & calibrated eye to do them without measuring.  

 

I have done enough of them now that I could probably get them pretty close without measuring but it wasn't that way the first few times until I figured out all the got-ya's & subtle cheats. 

[Tech1]

Thanks for the heads up on the balance tube.  Still surprised they didn't go in that direction, maybe with larger ports for the reasons you mention.  I work as an engineering tech at a large marine manufacturer (I'll leave it at that!) and although I primarily work with the drivetrain, I do on occasion get involved with engines and the calibration techs.  Anyways, we do have a few past models that use stepper style "IAC" (idle air control) and they can even use multiples IAC's, in which case they are controlled together.  Typically we set the idle stop screw(s) to a specific count on the IAC, although there are some other details in the exact procedure.  I think they have a rough stop screw setting and they can lock timing.  Sure wish there was a similar official procedure from BMW.

 

This morning I found out that I may have overstated how well I got it.  It isn't "perfect", but I will probably leave well enough alone.  I found a situation where something is probably not quite correct.  I believe they are very well balanced, but what the exact opening should be is a bit off.  This morning I started it up, no issue, straddled it back out of the garage and forgot to put up the side stand when I put it in gear.  It was still "cold", probably only running a minute, if that.  Well, it didn't restart well after kicking the side stand up.  It took a couple of tries when normally in the same situation it would pop right off.  Other than that, it seems fine.  After the ride home this evening, I did the same thing while it was warm, no issue.  Initial cold start ok, restart cold has an issue, hot start good.  Maybe if I can borrow the GS911 again and have the tupperware off for another reason, I will try to recreate it and see if something stands out.  Not a show stopper.

 

Thanks DR for your informed and experienced input.

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, Tech1 said:

Thanks for the heads up on the balance tube.  Still surprised they didn't go in that direction, maybe with larger ports for the reasons you mention.  I work as an engineering tech at a large marine manufacturer (I'll leave it at that!) and although I primarily work with the drivetrain, I do on occasion get involved with engines and the calibration techs.  Anyways, we do have a few past models that use stepper style "IAC" (idle air control) and they can even use multiples IAC's, in which case they are controlled together.  Typically we set the idle stop screw(s) to a specific count on the IAC, although there are some other details in the exact procedure.  I think they have a rough stop screw setting and they can lock timing.  Sure wish there was a similar official procedure from BMW.

 

This morning I found out that I may have overstated how well I got it.  It isn't "perfect", but I will probably leave well enough alone.  I found a situation where something is probably not quite correct.  I believe they are very well balanced, but what the exact opening should be is a bit off.  This morning I started it up, no issue, straddled it back out of the garage and forgot to put up the side stand when I put it in gear.  It was still "cold", probably only running a minute, if that.  Well, it didn't restart well after kicking the side stand up.  It took a couple of tries when normally in the same situation it would pop right off.  Other than that, it seems fine.  After the ride home this evening, I did the same thing while it was warm, no issue.  Initial cold start ok, restart cold has an issue, hot start good.  Maybe if I can borrow the GS911 again and have the tupperware off for another reason, I will try to recreate it and see if something stands out.  Not a show stopper.

 

Thanks DR for your informed and experienced input.

Morning  Tech1

 

Next time you get a cold stall like you did you might  try turning the key completely off, then back on, that will re-home the steppers & usually allows a better cold re-start. Or, just try holding the twist grip at about 1/8- 1/4 throttle for the restart. 

 

On wishing for a larger balance tube with a central single stepper. You don't want that if you can avoid it. 

 

What BMW uses on the hexhead 1200RT works great, doesn't cause many problems, & allows both cylinders to have independent idle control.  With proper independent stepper control a balance tube is not only not needed but makes the system work incorrectly when operating independently. 

 

The older BMW 700 & 800  bikes have a single central idle air control stepper with larger diameter air passages. That system can be a pain in the A$$ as the remote single stepper cokes up then the idle gets ratty, and/or engine stalling, so it needs to be accessed (not easy) then cleaned.  

 

When the hexhead 1200 stepper system is working correctly, & the base curb idle screws are not messed with, those things just work as each side can independently control it's own idle. About the only problems are when the steppers get some wear on the pintle screw, then get lost, so you then get an engine stall after a long high speed run. But a key-off then back on usually re-sets the steppers so it doesn't usually cause any problems until the next long high speed run. 

 

 

[The Rocketman]

We should have saved all our broken plastic cams and mailed them back to BMW corporate one after another until somebody there figured out (or at least admitted) there's a problem. I suppose if one of the BMW execs broke down far from home with a cracked cam, they might actually understand how a cheap, cheesy piece of plastic could cause a major problem. I'm sure its all about cost and profit, but really if they made these out of a more durable material right from the beginning, and raised the price of the bike a few bucks to cover it, nobody would even know or care. I guess if a rear wheel can fly off, they issue a wheel flange recall. But if the bike just dies due to lack of throttle and nobody crashes because its just an "inconvenience" rather than a "life safety issue" it doesn't get the same treatment.

And you know if we know about it, and the folks on ADVRider know about it, and the folks on the BMWMOA forum know about it, you can bet that BMW dealers and corporate know about it, and are ignoring it, as there's more money in trying to sell and install complete throttle bodies, than fixing a sub-assemby. Maybe they think ignoring it will make it go away, and as these affected bikes age out, the problem will some day just vanish.

[KDeline]

Well my latest dealer told me they had never heard of it and mine was the first......They were pretty arrogant until it was pulled apart, then the attitude changed to disbelief.