Who is at fault?

[Ponch]

Even better: http://nypost.com/2013/10/07/bike-cop-joined-in-on-suv-beatdown-video-reveals/

[Bud]

From CBS News

 

"Police arrested two of the alleged assailants over the weekend, and more arrests could be on the way. Police say the man seen pulling the Range Rover's door open is 35-year-old Robert Sims, of Brooklyn. And they say the man who later slammed his helmet against the driver's side window is Reginald Chance, 37, also from Brooklyn. Chance, CBS News has learned, already has 21 prior arrests on his record, including robbery and drug charges."

 

Not a member of MRN that is for sure.

[ratfink]

FOX news reports that outlaw bikers are better citizens than hooligan thug stunt riders.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/05/former-hells-angels-leader-slams-new-york-beating-after-motorcycle-chase/

[Rich06FJR1300]

i just wish the driver of the SUV had a gun and used it on those aholes!

[John in VA]

i just wish the driver of the SUV had a gun and used it on those aholes!

 

I have nothing against gun ownership (I'm a gun owner), and Wild West gunslingin' against road bandits sounds cool. But it's likely that plenty of those aholes with records a mile long were packin'. If the SUV driver were to whip out and brandish his piece, he'd likely "die a hero" in a hail of bullets and leave a widow and orphan -- assuming they or other hapless bystanders a block away didn't catch some flying lead in the forehead. Mother and baby and bystanders (and the driver) should be thankful the driver didn't have a gun and got away with a bloody nose.

[Ponch]

i just wish the driver of the SUV had a gun and used it on those aholes!

 

have nothing against gun ownership (I'm a gun owner), and Wild West gunslingin' against road bandits sounds cool. But it's likely that plenty of those aholes with records a mile long were packin'. If the SUV driver were to whip out and brandish his piece, he'd likely "die a hero" in a hail of bullets and leave a widow and orphan -- assuming they or other hapless bystanders a block away didn't catch some flying lead in the forehead. Mother and baby and bystanders (and the driver) should be thankful the driver didn't have a gun and got away with a bloody nose.

 

I lived in NY for 40 years and I can tell that it's hard to get a CCW permit and even then it's restricted. In NYC, it's even worse. Some say he's lucky he didn't, but hindsight is 20-20. The expectations that the bikers had were probably that people they terrorize aren't armed based on my statements above meaning where they live. If they were armed, it would be illegal. One thing I will say is that if someone arms themselves and practices, chances are they will be a better shot than the perps and may be some cops. What would have made it more so is that these idiots wouldn't expect it and if someone defended themselves and connected, I bet a lot if not all would have taken off. Again, they behaved that way because they believed they would get away with it because people in NY depend on the police for protection and since the cops were hands off, it's party time.

 

What is more troubling is that not only was there an undercover cop or two that watched and did nothing, there were also off duty cops that were running with these aholes and also chose to do nothing.

 

What's the saying? All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

 

Oh yeah, according to some reports, they slashed his face.

[John in VA]

I agree with all of your points and with the saying about good men. But a good man with a gun in that situation can do a lot of inadvertent damage to people who have nothing to do with the incident.

 

Not blaming the driver but he did run over a guy and he knew he did. Speaking of good men doing nothing... what if he'd gotten out to help the guy he ran over instead of speeding away? I'm not second guessing, I wasn't there.

 

It's a fine line is all I'm saying and a gun introduces a whole new risk of danger to innocent people.

[Ponch]

I agree with all of your points and with the saying about good men. But a good man with a gun in that situation can do a lot of inadvertent damage to people who have nothing to do with the incident.

 

Not blaming the driver but he did run over a guy and he knew he did. Speaking of good men doing nothing... what if he'd gotten out to help the guy he ran over instead of speeding away? I'm not second guessing, I wasn't there.

 

It's a fine line is all I'm saying and a gun introduces a whole new risk of danger to innocent people.

 

I disagree. Good men and women with guns save the day all the time. May be being from the DC area flavors your outlook, but being from NY didn't flavor mine in the expected way. Whatever the case, we disagree here.

[Matts_12GS]

Undercover officer arrested for participation

[upflying]

FOX news reports that outlaw bikers are better citizens than hooligan thug stunt riders.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/05/former-hells-angels-leader-slams-new-york-beating-after-motorcycle-chase/

 

Depends on definition of better citizens.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2013/07/22/gilroy-hells-angel-member-pleads-guilty-in-nevada-casino-shootout/

[RTJohn]

It seems there's another developement in this case. Gloria Allred has entered the fray...I know I know...I'm not a fan either...however, she seems to make some good points about this case. She points out a few things concerning the video that contradicts what others are saying. Things may not be as cut and dried as they seem. More to come...

[upflying]

It seems there's another developement in this case. Gloria Allred has entered the fray...I know I know...I'm not a fan either...however, she seems to make some good points about this case. She points out a few things concerning the video that contradicts what others are saying. Things may not be as cut and dried as they seem. More to come...

She's representing the guy who was run over and paralyzed, Edwin Mieses. Of course she is spinning information that makes her client look good, that's her job. Big bucks to be made in the eventual lawsuits.

[mickeym3]

You guys implying some jury could award the biker damages? If so another OJ's glove...

[russell_bynum]

I agree with all of your points and with the saying about good men. But a good man with a gun in that situation can do a lot of inadvertent damage to people who have nothing to do with the incident.

 

In theory, yes. But in practice...not all that likely if you look at the stats from states where CCW is allowed.

 

 

Not blaming the driver but he did run over a guy and he knew he did. Speaking of good men doing nothing... what if he'd gotten out to help the guy he ran over instead of speeding away? I'm not second guessing, I wasn't there.

 

The first crash...he hit a rider who pulled in front and brake-checked him. And he did stop at that point. When the riders started getting aggressive with him, he bolted. Which is exactly what I would have done (even if I'd been carrying at the time.)

 

It's a fine line is all I'm saying and a gun introduces a whole new risk of danger to innocent people.

 

Not really.

 

What it does do...is if the bikers were armed, then it may escalate the situation. Still...if I've exercise all of the other options available to me and it's down to literally a life or death decision, I'd rather have a fighting chance than not.

 

[John in VA]

May be being from the DC area flavors your outlook, but being from NY didn't flavor mine in the expected way. Whatever the case, we disagree here.

 

I have my own mind, thanks. I've lived all over the world, and I don't mean on vacations. Although my travels have educated me, my current geographic location doesn't "flavor" my outlook on this issue in the least and I wouldn't "expect" that anybody's location flavors theirs in any certain way.

 

Yes, on this subject you and I disagree.

 

Let's stipulate that at least we agree on our preferred motorcycle marque.

[Ponch]

May be being from the DC area flavors your outlook, but being from NY didn't flavor mine in the expected way. Whatever the case, we disagree here.

 

I have my own mind, thanks. I've lived all over the world, and I don't mean on vacations. Although my travels have educated me, my current geographic location doesn't "flavor" my outlook on this issue in the least and I wouldn't "expect" that anybody's location flavors theirs in any certain way.

 

Yes, on this subject you and I disagree.

 

Let's stipulate that at least we agree on our preferred motorcycle marque.

 

That might not even be so...

[John in VA]

The first crash...he hit a rider who pulled in front and brake-checked him. And he did stop at that point. When the riders started getting aggressive with him, he bolted. Which is exactly what I would have done (even if I'd been carrying at the time.)

 

The rider who pulled in front and was hit first claimed in an interview that he never applied his brakes, if that's what you mean by brake-checked, he only throttled back "by accident" when turning his head after he cut the SUV off and then the SUV hit his wheel. That rider's being charged with reckless driving, which makes sense.

 

If after I'd hit the rider's bike and injured him he or his buddies were directly threatening me or my family, like you I would have tried to drive away, but I sure wouldn't have bolted wildly and run over somebody (even if I'd been carrying).

[John in VA]

 

That might not even be so...

 

Ok then maybe not...

[russell_bynum]

If after I'd hit the rider's bike and injured him he or his buddies were directly threatening me or my family, like you I would have tried to drive away, but I sure wouldn't have bolted wildly and run over somebody (even if I'd been carrying).

 

The only way he could drive away was by running over whatever was in the way...which in this case was the asshat bikers who boxed him in. For me...if I feel like my life and the lives of my family are in danger, I don't have any moral qualms about running over a motorcycle or one of the asshats who's boxed me in.

 

If the people boxing him in were just some random innocent bystanders, then that might change things, but that wasn't the case.

 

 

[Matts_12GS]

The only way he could drive away was by running over whatever was in the way...which in this case was the asshat bikers who boxed him in. For me...if I feel like my life and the lives of my family are in danger, I don't have any moral qualms about running over a motorcycle or one of the asshats who's boxed me in.

 

 

WINNER!!

[Ponch]

If after I'd hit the rider's bike and injured him he or his buddies were directly threatening me or my family, like you I would have tried to drive away, but I sure wouldn't have bolted wildly and run over somebody (even if I'd been carrying).

 

The only way he could drive away was by running over whatever was in the way...which in this case was the asshat bikers who boxed him in. For me...if I feel like my life and the lives of my family are in danger, I don't have any moral qualms about running over a motorcycle or one of the asshats who's boxed me in.

 

If the people boxing him in were just some random innocent bystanders, then that might change things, but that wasn't the case.

 

 

He could have put on his magic slippers and flown away.

[John in VA]

He could have put on his magic slippers and flown away.

 

Popcorn's extra salty tonight.

[Ponch]

He could have put on his magic slippers and flown away.

 

Popcorn's extra salty tonight.

 

Either that or lift a manhole cover and go underground.

[DiggerJim]

The rider who pulled in front and was hit first claimed in an interview that he never applied his brakes, if that's what you mean by brake-checked, he only throttled back "by accident" when turning his head after he cut the SUV off and then the SUV hit his wheel.

Unfortunately for him, watching the video in slo-mo you can see his brake light go on. Unless he accidentally hit the brake pedal while accidentally throttling back while looking over his shoulder at the guy he just cut off after having been crowding him in his lane inches from the guy's door he's lying.

 

I am interested in the injured biker's story - it seems he's still "may be paralyzed" and then only the family & lawyer are saying that. There's been no independent confirmation of that reported and it's been a week. I don't think we're getting the straight dope out of that camp - it's the same one who said he was going to the aid of a fellow biker down when he was in a coma & couldn't speak to anyone but his wife somehow knew what he was doing and why.

 

It's all posturing as far as I can tell and it will be a long time before the full story comes out.

[donbmw]

Today in our local paper they are saying that on of the cops help in smashing up the SUV.

[Rich06FJR1300]

yes, 'off duty' cops

[SWB]

Put 100 kids on bikes between the ages of perhaps 16 and 22, and this (video) is what you'll have.

 

The fellow in the hospital is 32.

 

What can I say, some folks never grow up. (Or, "once a punk, always a punk..").

[upflying]

Put 100 kids on bikes between the ages of perhaps 16 and 22, and this (video) is what you'll have.

 

The fellow in the hospital is 32.

 

What can I say, some folks never grow up. (Or, "once a punk, always a punk..").

 

True, "you can take the boy out of the hood but you can't take the hood out of the boy".

[SWB]

Think I was a little too subtle in (or poorly worded) my earlier post...to all those who think a handgun (and/or extra clip) would have yielded a better outcome for the driver do you think you could have stopped the whole mob before they succeeded in pulling you from the car and killing you, possibly harming your family for good measure? Don't get me wrong, I have a carry permit and I'm not afraid to use it but if it had been me in that situation I hope I would have had the common sense to leave my glock in the glove box. In the face of vastly superior numbers just take your beating and not try a 300 Spartans deal.

 

Not me. Some "Spartans" are gonna die. Some are gonna quickly come to their senses, and I guess the rest of us are going to fight to the death. Fire, maneuver, advance. Keep innocents out of your field of fire.

 

Many bullies have never had someone try to stop them, and a lot of the wannabes have never been at risk.

 

Don't get me wrong, the first thing you do is try to keep your proximity clear, i.e. to keep distance between yourself and potential "bad guys". However, when you don't have a choice, you don't have a choice. If not you, then who? If they will attack you with a gun, or a police officer, those innocents unarmed, untrained, or unprepared have no chance. That's why you would fight, and not "take the beating".

[SWB]

The Post is reporting that NYPD officers have been told not to pursue biker gangs due to community-safety concerns. “The department also doesn’t have the manpower to police the rogue riders, who get together for pop-up outings and often use unregistered bikes.” This will not be reassuring to New Yorkers who have just watched one of their own take a beating from these bikers — particularly since Mr. Lien, with his Range Rover, his Columbia University education, and his job working for Credit Suisse, appears on the surface at least to be one of the “insulated” Manhattanites who have largely been sheltered from the city’s criminals since the beginning of the Giuliani administration.

 

While there are certainly sound reasons for a “no-pursuit” policy, and they have been discussed on TTAC in the past, offering a blanket policy exemption to motorcyclists engaged in intimidating or criminal behavior is likely to embolden people who, at least in a few cases, feel that it is completely justified to brutally assault a man in front of his two-year-old daughter. Slate, on the other hand, has taken this opportunity to shift some blame to the victim and argue that this was not a biker gang but rather a bunch of fun-loving stunt riders who should be handled lightly. Regardless of that rather nice distinction, the public is already demanding some effective action from the NYPD — and deciding to let bikers go as a matter of policy is unlikely to impress them.

 

New Jersey has similar State Attorney General guidelines. We are NOT allowed to pursue for the various motor vehicle violations. It has to be very serious and there has to be a reasonable expectation you can catch them and they won't harm others in the process.

 

The moment you try to stop one of these guys your Supervisor calls out "STOP" over the radio. We just watch them ride away, do what they want, into on-coming traffic, running red lights....etc...

 

I always wonder, if one of these lawless and/or witless perps broadsides the car and kills the family of the Chief of Police or the Major, if the pursuit policy would change. Probably not. However, I would think it serves the public better if a police officer put a few shottie rounds through the tires or window if necessary to end a pursuit quickly on a safe stretch of road, rather than allow the perp to spend hours putting 100's of citizens lives at risk running red lights at 100mph+. (Even in the case of the disturbed woman who was killed in Wash D.C. a week ago, the only problem I had with the officers opening fire was that the car was stopped and disabled, i.e. why shoot the poor woman AFTER her vehicle was no longer a threat. But I digress, from my digression ...).

 

Anyhow, I appreciate your service and that of the other LEO's on this form. Thanks a bunch, and hang in there.

[Ponch]

Think I was a little too subtle in (or poorly worded) my earlier post...to all those who think a handgun (and/or extra clip) would have yielded a better outcome for the driver do you think you could have stopped the whole mob before they succeeded in pulling you from the car and killing you, possibly harming your family for good measure? Don't get me wrong, I have a carry permit and I'm not afraid to use it but if it had been me in that situation I hope I would have had the common sense to leave my glock in the glove box. In the face of vastly superior numbers just take your beating and not try a 300 Spartans deal.

 

Not me. Some "Spartans" are gonna die. Some are gonna quickly come to their senses, and I guess the rest of us are going to fight to the death. Fire, maneuver, advance. Keep innocents out of your field of fire.

 

Many bullies have never had someone try to stop them, and a lot of the wannabes have never been at risk.

 

Don't get me wrong, the first thing you do is try to keep your proximity clear, i.e. to keep distance between yourself and potential "bad guys". However, when you don't have a choice, you don't have a choice. If not you, then who? If they will attack you with a gun, or a police officer, those innocents unarmed, untrained, or unprepared have no chance. That's why you would fight, and not "take the beating".

 

Only an idiot volunteers to take a beating.

[SWB]

It gets better: http://nypost.com/2013/10/04/undercover-cop-stood-by-as-bikers-beat-dad/

Interesting. But standing by and watching may be the only thing he could do. Exercising his LEO powers to stop the attack would only result in the bikers attacking him.

But waiting 3 days to report the incident is very bad. He should have remained at the scene to immediately report what he saw to responding on-duty leo's.

BTW, I am member of a motorcycle gang known as the Blue Knights.

http://www.blueknights.org/

 

Picking up his cell phone, calling 911 or his precinct and yelling "assault in progress by dozens of suspects, off-duty officer needs assistance, civilian down" wouldn't have resulted in NYPD sending help pretty quickly? I don't think there's anything that will save this officer from dismissal, let along, possible criminal charges (since the NYPD apparently has his participation in the assault on tape). We should certainly wait until all the facts are in before reflexively condemning this officer. It will be interesting.

 

Regards .. Scott

[SWB]

i just wish the driver of the SUV had a gun and used it on those aholes!

 

I have nothing against gun ownership (I'm a gun owner), and Wild West gunslingin' against road bandits sounds cool. But it's likely that plenty of those aholes with records a mile long were packin'. If the SUV driver were to whip out and brandish his piece, he'd likely "die a hero" in a hail of bullets and leave a widow and orphan -- assuming they or other hapless bystanders a block away didn't catch some flying lead in the forehead. Mother and baby and bystanders (and the driver) should be thankful the driver didn't have a gun and got away with a bloody nose.

 

If you were in the victim's situation, and suddenly had a guy hand you a gun to defend yourself, you'd want the gun, even if you weren't sure you could use it effectively. Even if you remained true to your principles, and refused the gun, at some point when the blows were raining down, and when they started in on your wife and child, YOU'D WANT THAT GUN. Guaranteed.

[upflying]

If the victim used a gun to defend himself, the media would blow it up into another Trayvon Martin incident.

[DiggerJim]

I would think it serves the public better if a police officer put a few shottie rounds through the tires or window if necessary to end a pursuit quickly on a safe stretch of road, rather than allow the perp to spend hours putting 100's of citizens lives at risk running red lights at 100mph+.

Most police shootings have a targeted hit rate of less than 50% from standing (or at least fixed, non-moving) positions. The likelihood that the average police officer could put a few rounds thru the tire of a speeding car or motorcycle are pretty damn slim regardless of what the movies show. Infinitely small if he's in or on a moving vehicle as well.

[Ponch]

I would think it serves the public better if a police officer put a few shottie rounds through the tires or window if necessary to end a pursuit quickly on a safe stretch of road, rather than allow the perp to spend hours putting 100's of citizens lives at risk running red lights at 100mph+.

Most police shootings have a targeted hit rate of less than 50% from standing (or at least fixed, non-moving) positions. The likelihood that the average police officer could put a few rounds thru the tire of a speeding car or motorcycle are pretty damn slim regardless of what the movies show. Infinitely small if he's in or on a moving vehicle as well.

 

You mean hit rate with the intended target. Last year a couple of NYC cops shot at a perp 16 times. They killed him alright, but injured 9 civilians too. Stunads.

[russell_bynum]

If the victim used a gun to defend himself, the media would blow it up into another Trayvon Martin incident.

 

But the key bit of info there is that Zimmerman is alive to deal with the aftermath.

 

[Ponch]

If the victim used a gun to defend himself, the media would blow it up into another Trayvon Martin incident.

 

But the key bit of info there is that Zimmerman is alive to deal with the aftermath.

 

Alive and proving what a moron he is.

[russell_bynum]

If the victim used a gun to defend himself, the media would blow it up into another Trayvon Martin incident.

 

But the key bit of info there is that Zimmerman is alive to deal with the aftermath.

 

Alive and proving what a moron he is.

 

Well yes, but that's a different issue.

[Matts_12GS]

If the victim used a gun to defend himself, the media would blow it up into another Trayvon Martin incident.

 

But the key bit of info there is that Zimmerman is alive to deal with the aftermath.

 

Alive and proving what a moron he is.

 

Well yes, but that's a different issue.

 

And for better or worse, that ain't illegal.

 

Yet.