Who is at fault?

[Ponch]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585

[Kathy R]

Makes me sick to my stomach

['99-RT Tony]

Mob mentality.

[russell_bynum]

Big mistake getting off the freeway and into the city where he could easily be boxed in.

[DiggerJim]

Big mistake getting off the freeway and into the city where he could easily be boxed in.

Yep - should have stuck on the highway with the wife calling 911 and reporting license plate numbers.

[russell_bynum]

Big mistake getting off the freeway and into the city where he could easily be boxed in.

Yep - should have stuck on the highway with the wife calling 911 and reporting license plate numbers.

 

Yup.

[60av8tor]

Makes me sick to my stomach

 

+1 . Buffoons – purely and simply. I love listening to the first 4 minutes – don’t think I’ve ever heard so many throttle blips!! Curious to know what transpired leading up to this incident. I have had a few instances with groups (much smaller) where one guy blocks the entire left lane so all 20 or so riders from the right can pass, etc. This very well may be a group riding “technique”, but I don’t like riding in large groups period for this reason – always feel like I’m disturbing other motorists. Only my opinion, but the fact that a bunch of folks are riding together on motorcycles doesn’t give license to impede the flow of other motorists.

Purely conjecture, but I can bet this guy got behind the group, got held up in one way or another, and, correct or not, maybe conducted some advanced driving maneuvers to get around them or some international sign language, etc. Who knows…

 

[DiggerJim]

I have had a few instances with groups (much smaller) where one guy blocks the entire left lane so all 20 or so riders from the right can pass, etc.

Last month had a bunch of sport bike riders (t-shirts, sneakers, etc) riding on the interstate here - 4 lanes wide and they were all doing about 10-20mph slowing everyone down behind them. Then when the front opened up they gunned the bikes & sped up before popping wheelies to ride down the highway on the back wheel. The traffic started to speed up and when it got to the bikes they dropped back onto 2 wheels and slowed down again to 10-20. State police said they didn't have anyone in the area & wouldn't be able to get there for 15 minutes or so (this was coincidentally enough not 5 miles from the state police headquarters! ). Bikers got tired of the game and were long gone before any cruiser showed up. Meanwhile a whole raft of people went home with a negative impression of motorcyclists.

[upflying]

Looks like it started with a biker brake checking the Range Rover. Fault biker. (but could be argued following too close)

Then Range Rover dude ran over biker while fleeing the initial attack. Fault Range Rover. (but could be argued self-defense)

Bikers physically assault and attack RR dude after boxing him in.

Fault bikers, false imprisonment, assault, vandalism.

Surprised bikers posted the incriminating video for insurance companies, lawyers, insurance companies and LEO's.

RR dude should have driven straight to a police station.

Never been to NYC, no plans to visit.

[Sil]

When I first saw this video I figured there had to be a lot more to the story, sadly we will never know. Regardless of the behavior of the squids, no one has a right to hurl 4500 lbs of vehicle at living human beings. Getting brake checked is not a form of violence. Two things about this are curious, one the driver did not contact the police. Why not? Second, if the squids were wrong, why on earth would they post the video? Sounds like a lot of stupidity to go around.

 

I wonder if behavior like this will become more prevalent as time goes on. Many folks in the riding community feel there is no justice when it comes to car/bike collisions. Oftentimes the perpetrator gets off with a ticket and the rider gets a coffin. I am not excusing the behavior, nor condoning vigilante justice, but Carl Koella had a highway named after him after he killed a rider.

[Ponch]

The bikers slashed the drivers throat and chest. In some places, the bikers would have had their ticket punched, deservedly so. A lot of the bikers didn't have license plates on their bikes too. I wonder why? Couldn't have been up to anything good as they didn't want to be traced.

[Sil]

Here is a news story covering the incident, I am not seeing anything about the driver getting his throat and face slashed. The lacerations were from the window getting broken.

[Ponch]

Here is a news story covering the incident, I am not seeing anything about the driver getting his throat and face slashed. The lacerations were from the window getting broken.

 

I took it from The Daily News. There hasn't been a retraction or update, so I take it for what it is. from reading both stories, your link is highly partisan, whereas the Daily News is more apt to be somewhat in the middle.

[Kathy R]

The bikers slashed the drivers throat and chest.

 

I read the Daily News article (not the greatest reputation for accuracy) and missed that detail? Ponch, where did you read that bit above? I read that the driver was released from the hospital after treatment for facial cuts.

[Sil]

Okay, here is another source. The initial collision where the driver of the Range Rover rear ended the motorcyclists resulted in a broken leg. Again nothing about the riders slashing his throat and face.

[Sil]

Here is the article Ponch is referring to.

[Sil]

Again, I am not condoning their actions, if the Daily News is right (which reads like the National Enquirer, is it a real paper?) then folks need to go to prison.

[philbytx]

 

Now THAT wouldn't happen around here !

 

 

[Kathy R]

Thanks for the link, but that one says the same thing; "slashed in the face". Just reading the Daily News reminds me why I don't read the Daily News.

[Ponch]

I don't read the Daily News much myself. The thing is, a lot of the bikers were arrested and a lot didn't have plates. That tells me that something is amiss with their behavior, as they don't want to be accountable for their actions.

 

This situation is a sticky wicket. It could be the driver did incite something, but so could the bikers. We may never know. Myself, when I see aholes that ride like hooligans, I give them wide berth and wish them well. If someone is going to get into it with me, they will have crossed the line first and then we'll see. I wish there was more data, but my guess is that a lot of people will need a lawyer before this is done.

[Kathy R]

The thing is, a lot of the bikers were arrested and a lot didn't have plates.

 

Hey, to clarify, they did not yet catch the folks that did this. The people arrested were not in the group who attacked the driver. According to the article you cited....

 

 

The commissioner said police were monitoring the ride — which is loosely organized by the group Hollywood Stuntz. He said the group caused chaos in Times Square when they suddenly showed up and disrupted traffic.

 

Police arrested 15 bikers during Sunday’s event, Kelly said, and several others were issued summonses.

 

Investigators were reviewing nearby surveillance cameras and social media to try and track down the people who attacked Lien, Kelly said.

 

 

Lien is the last name of the driver. The fellow who was attacked.

 

 

[Ponch]

The thing is, a lot of the bikers were arrested and a lot didn't have plates.

 

Hey, to clarify, they did not yet catch the folks that did this. The people arrested were not in the group who attacked the driver. According to the article you cited....

 

 

The commissioner said police were monitoring the ride — which is loosely organized by the group Hollywood Stuntz. He said the group caused chaos in Times Square when they suddenly showed up and disrupted traffic.

 

Police arrested 15 bikers during Sunday’s event, Kelly said, and several others were issued summonses.

 

Investigators were reviewing nearby surveillance cameras and social media to try and track down the people who attacked Lien, Kelly said.

 

 

Lien is the last name of the driver. The fellow who was attacked.

 

 

Right and they left the scene of an accident and if they had plates, the cops wouldn't be looking at social media to find out who they are, they'd be at their doorsteps. The fact they left, speaks volumes. If the driver of the car instigated this, you'd think they'd want to tell their side.

[Bud]

I posted this a while back. Same kind of idiots.

 

St Louis Ride of the Century stunt riders

 

Have no use nor tolerance of "stunt riding" on public highways.

 

PO's drivers, endangers others and is just plain "look at me, I'm an asshole" kind of riding.

 

Loose license, impound bike, jail time. Seems that may discourage some of them.

 

Not that I have strong feelings about this topic.

 

 

[Hookman]

These riders are lucky they didn't pull that stunt in Texas, someone could have been shot.

[russell_bynum]

Regardless of the behavior of the squids, no one has a right to hurl 4500 lbs of vehicle at living human beings. Getting brake checked is not a form of violence. Two things about this are curious, one the driver did not contact the police. Why not? Second, if the squids were wrong, why on earth would they post the video? Sounds like a lot of stupidity to go around.

 

The driver initially stopped after the collision (I'm not going to call it an accident because the dipstick on the bike clearly brake-checked him.) When the riders all swarmed him, he feared for his safety (and that of his family) and fled, running over some bikes in the process. I'd do the exact same thing. Sorry, but if it's my family or you, that's a pretty easy decision for me.

 

Why do you believe the driver didn't contact the police? It's entirely possible that his wife was on the phone to them during the pursuit (That's certainly what I would have done.)

 

The only thing that's a question to me is what happened before the video started. If the driver did something to provoke the aphid-brain on the bike to brake-check an SUV, then that changes the equation somewhat. (Though if you're stupid enough to brake check a car when you're on a motorcycle, you are obviously lacking any rational cognitive ability.)

[russell_bynum]

Loose license, impound bike, jail time. Seems that may discourage some of them.

 

Most of them are riding without a license or insurance anyway.

 

[Ponch]

And there's the rub. If they were "attacked" by the driver, stick around and tell their side of the story. Instead they fled. Not having license plates is a strong indication they don't want to be traced after breaking the law. They driver stuck around. In the police's eyes, that makes a big difference.

[russell_bynum]

Makes me sick to my stomach

 

+1 . Buffoons – purely and simply. I love listening to the first 4 minutes – don’t think I’ve ever heard so many throttle blips!!

 

The throttle blips are one thing, but the thing that boggles my mind is the whole "pin the throttle and let the bike sit on the rev limiter stuff.

 

A few years ago, before the nascar guys took over AMA Roadracing and systematically killed it so that there's no longer a SoCal race, Lisa and I were at Fontana watching the races. We were up in the general admission grandstands at the start of the back straight. Between races, some stunters came out and put on a show. Now...most of it was a pretty impressive display of bike handling. Slow wheelies. Stoppies. Rolling burnouts. Incredible skill and a great show. But what got the biggest crowd reaction is when they would roll by in front of the stands at about 30mph with the rider just sitting on the bike normally and the throttle pinned so the bike was just bouncing off the rev limiter. The crowd went frickin nuts every time they did that.

 

And that's the mentality of these guys.

[ChrisNYC]

 

Packs of riders like these come up 1st Avenue in Manhattan every weekend in the summer, and no one stops them. There are pleny of other vids on youtube documenting these riders in NYC.

 

From what I've read, for the day of this "ride", the authorities started some checkpoints and confiscated some bikes earlier in the day. Some news bits suggest that this police action earlier in the day sent all the "splinter groups" off in different directions (apparently there's gang involvement that gets put aside on this annual ride and "all the riders come together" ... blah blah blah ..)

 

I'm hoping that this tragic event can put an end to this nonsense ...

 

------------------

Chris (aka Tender Vittles )

Little '77 KZ400 in the Big Apple

Black '99 RT for Everywhere Else, such as ...

 

[Kathy R]

I immediately thought of your safety, Chris, and that of Ray, Francis and the others who live and ride in the city. It only takes one sociopath to ruin your day.

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

These riders are lucky they didn't pull that stunt in Texas, someone could have been shot.

 

 

 

I love Texas!

[Bud]

One arrest today.

[lakemaker]

Guys... I just heard on the news that there we more than 200 calls to the police regarding this biker group before this incident.

[MacGruber]

Regardless of the behavior of the squids, no one has a right to hurl 4500 lbs of vehicle at living human beings. Getting brake checked is not a form of violence. Two things about this are curious, one the driver did not contact the police. Why not? Second, if the squids were wrong, why on earth would they post the video? Sounds like a lot of stupidity to go around.

 

The driver initially stopped after the collision (I'm not going to call it an accident because the dipstick on the bike clearly brake-checked him.) When the riders all swarmed him, he feared for his safety (and that of his family) and fled, running over some bikes in the process. I'd do the exact same thing. Sorry, but if it's my family or you, that's a pretty easy decision for me.

 

+1

[John Ranalletta]

Squidiots

[Sil]

The long nature of the video makes me wonder why he did not call the cops immediately. Is the response typically that slow?

[Sil]

Posted that before I read the thread through, now I understand the slow response. I am still not sure whether we know the truth. The sensationalized account in the first post reads very differently than the two accounts I cited. We do not know the truth and I am not going to assume either side is right. Having fought traffic on the streets of Washington, DC for a few years, I can tell you that there are too many times where cars hit my back tire, pushed their way into my space, or just generally endangered me. It is on your toes riding and the "I didn't see you man" excuse gets monotonous. Again I am not saying the groups reaction was appropriate, but if the Range Rover initiated this, and then struck a motorcycle breaking the riders leg, then ran over a group of motorcyclists, I think I understand their overreaction. I will say it again, if you are on a motorcycle, your life is considered less than valuable by many in cars. Squids are squids, but I get frustration.

[Kathy R]

I have little sympathy for these riders. I suspect the only thing the driver could have done to avoid this event was to have stayed at home. These riders were looking for what they got. The driver was not.

[russell_bynum]

Story on CNN

[BailyD]

I had one of these types of idiot riders flee from me today at 100+ mph on shoulder of surface street. Typical, the tag was hidden. I will continue to WAGE WAR on these riders when I return to work. If you HIDE YOUR TAG...you will get a $50 summons for your trouble.

 

20 years ONE custom/cruiser/tour has run from me. On average 6 to 7 Sport bikes flee every SEASON. 100% of the Sport bikes that have fled have had their plates OBSTRUCTED!

 

I have ZERO respect for riders like these guys!

[upflying]

This is getting national media exposure. As I predicted, bikers arrested for assault, no charges against SUV driver, his actions of running over the biker was deemed self-defense.

SUV driver's troubles aren't over though, biker he ran over is paralyzed.

Let the lawsuits fly, bet videographer wishes he had not posted this.

[SWB]

I read through the discussion on this thread. As motorcyclists we've seen some of the really stupid things drivers do that put our lives at risk, so our knee jerk reaction is to suspect the driver.

 

However, after looking at the whole story, and putting myself in that situation hypothetically, if I bump into a bike when I'm surrounded by dozens or 100's of young motorcyclists riding and acting like wanton outlaws, I'd be kind of careful about stopping. Particularly so, if I was unarmed and I had my family with me. I'd LIKE to obey the law and stop, but those bikers had already created a situation too dangerous to stop by breaking the vehicle code. If we're all playing by Marquis-of-Queensberry good driving rules, the initial event probably doesn't happen.

 

When the wanton-outlaw-bikers decided to start pounding on my vehicle after initial contact, thereby threatening my family, I would go all George Zimmerman on them, with whatever weapons I had, until I felt safe. Their fists can be deadly weapons, and I'd have to assume that some were armed with more than that. Yes, in that case, a one ton SUV will suit my weapons needs handily. When a potential perp is in my face he's already 50-75 feet too close. When he and a dozen of his buddies are on top of my car, I'm not going to give them the benefit of the doubt (i.e. "they're selling girl scout cookies; just a bit over eager, that's all").

 

When they are that stupid they put me in that situation, that they force THAT "fight or flight" decision on me, bodies are going to fly, and as many of theirs as it takes. I would commit to being a high speed, evasive target, no matter how many crotch rockets go under, to prevent being knifed, shot, beaten, and possibly killed.

 

My son and his friends ride crotch rockets. Lots of the local Marines do also, and they stunt and such. The vast majority of riders are good kids, and I don't harbor any ill to any of them. However, I'm not going to allow a group of gangbangers to hurt my family, or put them at risk, just because they're young and on a motorcycle.

 

Those kids are darned lucky. I'm really sorry about the seriously injured biker. It's not clear that he was directly involved with the assault. Yes, it will be a legal mess.

 

- Scott

[Hookman]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/christopher-cruz_n_4023392.html?utm_hp_ref=new-york

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I'm really sorry about the seriously injured biker. It's not clear that he was directly involved with the assault.

 

It's a tragic outcome for him: he's reportedly paralyzed from the waist down. However, the fact that he was run over means that he was stopped in front of the SUV - which means he was deliberately attempting to block it from leaving while the rest of his crew terrorized the SUV's occupants. I'd regard that as direct involvement, and I wouldn't hold the SUV's driver at fault for going through him to effect his escape.

[upflying]

The sad part is the car insurance of the SUV driver probably won't defend or cover him in the inevitable lawsuits. Paralyzed biker was struck intentionally not accidentally.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The sad part is the car insurance of the SUV driver probably won't defend or cover him in the inevitable lawsuits. Paralyzed biker was struck intentionally not accidentally.

 

I suppose that'll be up to courtroom testimony. I would guess the rider was not struck with intent to harm, but instead as an inevitable outcome of a desperate attempt to escape the assault in progress.

[Kathy R]

As has been said, the paralyzed biker was struck as a result of his participation in a crime. If the driver needs money to fight the lawsuits I suspect the public outcry will result in a fund being set up.

[smiller]

Paralyzed biker was struck intentionally not accidentally.

I don't think that's at all clear. The driver was having his vehicle torn apart and was very reasonably in fear for his life so he attempted to drive away. It's quite possible that in all the confusion he didn't see the individual.

[upflying]

I had one of these types of idiot riders flee from me today at 100+ mph on shoulder of surface street. Typical, the tag was hidden. I will continue to WAGE WAR on these riders when I return to work. If you HIDE YOUR TAG...you will get a $50 summons for your trouble.

 

20 years ONE custom/cruiser/tour has run from me. On average 6 to 7 Sport bikes flee every SEASON. 100% of the Sport bikes that have fled have had their plates OBSTRUCTED!

 

I have ZERO respect for riders like these guys!

Typically these sport bikers have their plates mounted under the rear fender and in front of the rear tire. Besides fleeing when you attempt to pull them over, they enjoy a toll free pass across SF Bay Area bridges.

[upflying]

Paralyzed biker was struck intentionally not accidentally.

I don't think that's at all clear. The driver was having his vehicle torn apart and was very reasonably in fear for his life so he attempted to drive away. It's quite possible that in all the confusion he didn't see the individual.

You are right, all depends on the legal double talk in court.