Pit Bull

[beemerman2k]

As for the comments about Pit Bulls being a breed worthy of elimination I suggest we put more energy into the eradication of the humans who seek to breed dogs who exhibit the will to kill.

 

How would we go about doing this? This kind of thing requires an endless budget and time period that we just don't have. For the same reason most districts do not permit the owning of a Lion or a Tiger in the household, and just like you cannot take your pet Leopard to Home Depot with you, and just like you might want to keep your pet alligator home next trip to McDonalds, so, too, no Pitt Bulls. Certain breed of dogs need to be under the same type of category as these other animal breeds.

 

For what it's worth, it's not that I feel there's something "wrong" with such life forms, there isn't. But they do not mix well with the general public in our society.

 

I suppose an allowance could be made so long as the pet was insured against damage to others. Your pet attacks? You get sued and your insurer pays out ungodly amounts of money. Can't get insurance? Can't get the pet.

[Ohio48]

Reasonable fear for a person's life or fear of great bodily harm is all that is usually required to justify the use of deadly force. You do NOT have to be bit, stabbed, or shot before you are allowed to defend yourself.

 

So anybody that wants to make a left hand turn in-front of me while I'm on two wheels better watch out!!!

[Ohio48]

I haven't ever read a report of a pit bull attack where the owner admitted the dog was dangerous. And therein lies the danger.

 

Like it or not, these dogs have been bred to kill. If you own one and want to tell me why I'm wrong, don't waste the bandwidth.

 

If I were King, there wouldn't be pit bulls in the US.

 

 

This is my view as well. Yes, were I king, they'd be gone! Tough.

 

Those who bred the dogs to kill??? or the poor dog brought up by the wrong person???

You sure don't want me being KING, that is for sure, dogs will not be the top thing on MY list.

[Ohio48]

This incident would have been completely avoided if people would quit thinking of their pets as people. They aren't. They crap every where, pee where they want. Most pet owners will not even clean up after them after a walk in the park. Why do they need to take 'em to the hardware store? Even more ridiculous is when they bring their pets to outdoor eating areas.

 

I feel the same about little kids!!!

[4wheeldog]

[quote=Kathy R A woman noticed a Pit Bull tied to a dock pole, treading water for it's life. She attempted to rescue the dog from it's plight, when a man jumped out of nowhere to yell, "Don't touch my property". Yeah, the dog was in training. Horrible, huh? It's not the breed. It's what the HUMAN ASSHAT is doing to the breed. Stop the human and you save the breed.

 

Your post reminded me of a situation I found myself in when I was working. We (The fellow I was working with and I) were sitting in the City truck, eating lunch, in the parking area of a marina. Tough guy (Wife beater, tattoos, including the teardrops indicative of time spent in stoney lonesome) was walking his Pit. Dog had a very heavy chain, with spikes, around his neck. Dumbass owner removes leash, throws tennis ball into the water for dog to fetch. Dog attempts retrieve, but chain is too heavy, dog sinks. Dumbass owner comes unglued, runs over to our (City) truck, and screams at us, demanding we "Save his dog!"

Of course we did not go in the water (Which was at least 10' deep where the dog disappeared) after the dog. Even if we had located it, the dog might have killed us.

Dumbass owner actually complained to the Mayor. Complaint didn't go very far.

 

 

[Mike]

This incident would have been completely avoided if people would quit thinking of their pets as people. They aren't. They crap every where, pee where they want. Most pet owners will not even clean up after them after a walk in the park. Why do they need to take 'em to the hardware store? Even more ridiculous is when they bring their pets to outdoor eating areas.

 

Dang! I do that all the time. The dog's a chick magnet . . . or is it because I'm devastatingly handsome? (BTW, keep this secret; my wife has no idea.)

[Mike]

What did I do wrong?

 

Easy......You live in Floriduh......Your neighbor was too old to move that fast.

 

Yeah. In Florida, the Tueller Rule is modified to half the height of the walker.

[Ohio48]

This incident would have been completely avoided if people would quit thinking of their pets as people. They aren't. They crap every where, pee where they want. Most pet owners will not even clean up after them after a walk in the park. Why do they need to take 'em to the hardware store? Even more ridiculous is when they bring their pets to outdoor eating areas.

 

Dang! I do that all the time. The dog's a chick magnet . . . or is it because I'm devastatingly handsome? (BTW, keep this secret; my wife has no idea.)

 

Pssst, Mike, it's the dog, same thing happens to me, and it's not my looks, but Rocky's!!!

[Ohio48]

What did I do wrong?

 

Easy......You live in Floriduh......Your neighbor was too old to move that fast.

 

Yeah. In Florida, the Tueller Rule is modified to half the height of the walker.

 

Unless that walker has tennis balls on the back legs, then watch out!!

[CarrotNC]

Dog defense 101: See dangerous dog running or walking towards you in threatening manner, remove shirt or jacket, wrap it over your hand, thrust into mouth of pouncing dog, choke it and kick it...

 

I've been attacked by a dog. Was visiting friends' house for first time, and they introduced me to their German shephard and I'd seemingly passed muster -- petted him for a bit, scratched head, etc. We (people) turned to walk toward the house and within five steps the dog hit me from behind at shoulder level knocking me down, and bit anything he could reach before the owners could pull him off. Multiple puncture wounds, and a slashing cut to face they had to stitch back together. And no, the dog had never done anything like that before.

 

I'm still a dog person, but recognize that while owners may be to blame for turning a dog mean, there's also the occasional dog that goes nuts. And unless you know, you'd better be prepared. Even now playing back that fateful day the only defense I can see is to have never turned my back. The approach AviP mentions above works if you see them coming. By the way, if no shirt is handy then can offer the dog a forearm held parallel to the ground, and after he takes hold the other arm is brought down on the neck and the bitten arm shoved backwards to break the neck. Will most likely not work on a heavy-necked dog like a pit bull or a rottweiler though.

 

Had a dog charge me when I was deer hunting one time. Stalking after a rain through property we'd hunted for past 20 years when a feral beagle trotted into view over the crest of a little rise about 40 feet away. I froze, he snarled/popped his teeth and charged, I dropped him at 3 feet with a rifle that'd been held at port-arms already -- that sucker was fast! No idea of what prompted the attack, although could tell he'd been in a few fights and wasn't fed well. Hated to shoot, as I'd grown up with beagles of my own.

 

Unrelated, but I've had rabies shots thanks to a cat. Still don't like cats. Sad part is they like me just fine.

[Kathy R]

As for the comments about Pit Bulls being a breed worthy of elimination I suggest we put more energy into the eradication of the humans who seek to breed dogs who exhibit the will to kill.

 

How would we go about doing this? This kind of thing requires an endless budget and time period that we just don't have. For the same reason most districts do not permit the owning of a Lion or a Tiger in the household, and just like you cannot take your pet Leopard to Home Depot with you, and just like you might want to keep your pet alligator home next trip to McDonalds, so, too, no Pitt Bulls. Certain breed of dogs need to be under the same type of category as these other animal breeds.

 

For what it's worth, it's not that I feel there's something "wrong" with such life forms, there isn't. But they do not mix well with the general public in our society.

 

I suppose an allowance could be made so long as the pet was insured against damage to others. Your pet attacks? You get sued and your insurer pays out ungodly amounts of money. Can't get insurance? Can't get the pet.

 

 

In my perfect world....

 

Getting to the root of a problem is the way to solve it. Educate the Human. Work to ensure the Human is mentally healthy and happy and you eliminate the Humans need to abuse the animal. Get Society involved. Change the culture. Enlist the help of volunteers.

 

Enforce existing laws.

 

People who fight dogs or cocks or who spear bulls are not doing it simply because it's a culturally accepted sport. Just what does it take to gain pleasure from the suffering and maiming of an animal?

 

Getting rid of the breed is moving the problem.

 

Let's get rid of motorcycles or limit their engines because they are dangerous vs let's educate riders and drivers. Same argument in my book.

 

 

[beemerman2k]

I haven't ever read a report of a pit bull attack where the owner admitted the dog was dangerous. And therein lies the danger.

 

Like it or not, these dogs have been bred to kill. If you own one and want to tell me why I'm wrong, don't waste the bandwidth.

 

If I were King, there wouldn't be pit bulls in the US.

 

This is my view as well. Yes, were I king, they'd be gone! Tough.

 

Those who bred the dogs to kill??? or the poor dog brought up by the wrong person???

 

 

The dogs (although, admittedly, it's the person who actually deserves the fate). My interest would not be to kill such dogs, but to simply reclassify them as we do lions and tigers and aligators. Then, maybe I as King, would accept a grandfather clause that all dogs so classified and who are currently alive can live out the rest of their days with their owners. But they cannot breed! As of a certain date, any dog in said category born from that point forward is literally dead meat. I suppose if one can show that their business is that of breeding such dogs for export, or for specialized purposes (military, security, etc) then that's fine.

 

Also, all dogs so classified MUST be insured by their owner for a certain amount to cover any and all damages and medical bills of the victims they harm. The only exception would be a person so harmed who was an ininvited guest into the owners home or place of business (a robber), or who the owner had reason to believe was attacking him/her.

 

As we're learning from events in Northern Africa, the last thing a King needs is an angry populace! So as King, I'd be gentle and understanding, but I would have an obligation to keep my kingdom safe, too.

[beemerman2k]

In my perfect world....

 

Getting to the root of a problem is the way to solve it. Educate the Human. Work to ensure the Human is mentally healthy and happy and you eliminate the Humans need to abuse the animal. Get Society involved. Change the culture. Enlist the help of volunteers.

 

OMG! Do you know how long that would take? Do you educate by force? Are people forced to take the classes? What do you teach? Whose philosophy will you call upon that has any evidence of success? Any societal models you care to point out that demonstrate that this approach actually would work?

 

Enforce existing laws.

 

People who fight dogs or cocks or who spear bulls are not doing it simply because it's a culturally accepted sport. Just what does it take to gain pleasure from the suffering and maiming of an animal?

 

:confused: And this "pleasure" can be learned out of them? Based upon what evidence (as opposed to ideology) do you think so?

 

Getting rid of the breed is moving the problem.

 

Let's get rid of motorcycles or limit their engines because they are dangerous vs let's educate riders and drivers. Same argument in my book.

 

2 points: 1) are you also for people owning lions and tigers? If not, why not? Same thing for pit bulls.

 

2) if motorcycles are posing a danger to the general public, then yes, get rid of them! So far, it's only the rider and passenger who pays the price for any mistakes out there, thus no social outcry. But if motorcycles start becoming tools for terrorist bombs and bank robbers and sick, human torpedoes against the general public, then yes, we need to consider what it would mean to remove the tool -- unless it would easily be shown that another tool would be used that is equally as effective (bicycles, for instance).

[Mike]

It's actually kind of interesting what's happened with pit bulls over the years. Once considered the All-American family dog, they became a favorite of our nation's low-life: drug dealers, dog fight promoters, and similar vermin. Some of these dogs have probably been bred for aggression, but there's plenty of evidence that they're a more benign breed than the average dog.

 

It's all complicated by the propensity of the news media to pounce on every pit bull attack. Truthfully, can you remember the last time that you saw a TV news story about a poodle, labrador, or a beagle attacking someone?

 

I'll admit that I get edgy around pit bulls. I would admit to having been influenced by the news media I've disparaged, but I also am aware of the fact that these dogs are a favorite of our society's SOBs, and there may, therefore, be more to worry about.

 

I don't know, though, that eradicating the breed or requiring different treatment makes any sense. I'd rather eradicate the bastards who abuse them.

[beemerman2k]

I don't know, though, that eradicating the breed or requiring different treatment makes any sense. I'd rather eradicate the bastards who abuse them.

 

These are nice sentiments, but I am trying to nail down real world specifics here. How do you know about a "bad" pit bull until it actually attacks someone? If your point is: let's hang the owners of such dogs by their toes then, OK, that's a down to earth policy.

 

You can own any animal you want (pitt bull, lion, tiger, boa constrictor, cobra), but if that animal harms another, not only will that animal forfiet its life, but so will the owner!

 

That's the kind of thing I'm looking for. "We should get rid of bad people". What's not to like about that statement? "We need to reform the thinking of criminals". Nice, but not at all practical. "Anyone who commits a certain class of crime is dead meat -- no excuses". Now that's practical!

 

So who has a practical idea as to how we deal with the threat of certain breeds of dogs? I feel for families in the ghettos. Hard core knuckleheads enjoy a reign of terror over people with their pitbulls, dobermans, and the like. These families and kids need relief! I would give it to them NOW.

 

How would you deal with neighborhoods like this one? "Collect all the 'bad' owners and take their dogs". Who determines a 'bad' owner? A certain race of owner? Educational or income level? A certain tattoo? A type of dog collar? Whether their dog has attacked a child yet?

 

Without laying down something firm and practical, I don't see the proposed solutions as solutions!

[beemerman2k]

I am reminded of when I was a young teenager living in the poorest section of Springfield, MA (Winchester Square). I lived across the street from a home where these young men kept their dobermans. One day, a neighbor's young kitten wandered in front of their house and one of the dobermans ran out and quite easily mauled that kitten to pieces in no time flat.

 

I happen to like cats, so I was not happy about that event, much less the owner of that kitten. You can do what you want to the owner (and you should), but the dog has to be dealt with, too. That's a fact.

[Mike]

I happen to like cats, so I was not happy about that event, much less the owner of that kitten. You can do what you want to the owner (and you should), but the dog has to be dealt with, too. That's a fact.

 

You're right about that. Once a dog has proven to be a danger, I think that the answer, unfortunately, is that the dog should be euthanized. Heartbreaking, but, absent a huge infusion of time and money to "deprogram" vicious dogs, it's the only answer.

 

However, I disagree on the outlawing of breeds. In my recollection, German Shepherds, Dobies, and others have worn the mantle of "vicious dog." I don't know where or how you'd draw the line--does everything other than a golden retriever get euthanized?

[Dave McReynolds]

It's actually kind of interesting what's happened with pit bulls over the years. Once considered the All-American family dog, they became a favorite of our nation's low-life: drug dealers, dog fight promoters, and similar vermin. Some of these dogs have probably been bred for aggression, but there's plenty of evidence that they're a more benign breed than the average dog.

 

It's all complicated by the propensity of the news media to pounce on every pit bull attack. Truthfully, can you remember the last time that you saw a TV news story about a poodle, labrador, or a beagle attacking someone?

 

 

I assume there's a reason the low-lifes you mention picked pit bulls, just like there's a reason I picked a Lab to hunt ducks with. You might be able to teach a Lab to fight, and you might be able to teach a pit bull to hunt ducks, but it ain't gonna be easy!

[scout6]

In the mauled cat story, why was the cat allowed to roam?

[beemerman2k]

My attitude is greatly colored by the fact that I have lived as a prisoner of big, mean dogs many times in my youth.

 

Via Facebook, I reconnected with my first "girlfriend". I was an 8 year old kid living in Detroit, MI, and I fell in "like" with Sheila. One problem, Sheila's father owned a huge German Shepard named, "Duke". Duke was the terror of the block; once in a while Duke would break loose and maul some wandering dog while the rest of us ran for cover on top of cars or up a tree.

 

One fateful day, Duke got loose and chased me of all people down the alley. I was eventually cornered with Duke about to pounce on me. Apparently, I screamed out my sisters name (I was told that's what I screamed as I had no memory even then of what I said) and the gate I was leaning against broke under the pressure of my body and I fell on my back to the ground. Mercifully, Duke decided to leave me alone as that pounce never came. Anyhow, Sheila and I spoke over the phone a couple of weeks ago and I reminded her of her dog Duke. We both were able to laugh about it all these decades later (that was over 42 years ago!), but I know there's psychological damage inside me somewhere from that dog.

 

Then there was that house across the street in Springfield, MA with the 2 big ugly mean doberman dogs.

 

Living in terror of dogs as a child is not a fun experience, and it builds within you a huge dislike for the entire species. To this day, I am not a dog lover. I remember as a teen when another dog was hit by a car. Me and my friends were playing street football, so we saw it happen. We watched the dog slowly breath its last and everyone was sad. Except me. I felt absolutely nothing for that dog. One less in the world as far as I was concerned.

 

I think it's great to be a dog lover, but you also have to understand the fact that there are many people who live as prisoners of these animals and their senseless owners. Those people will grow up to be just like me and feel absolutely no kinship with dogs whatsoever. In fact, after much campaigning, my daughters convinced me to get them a Cocker Spaniel -- a breed of dog I do happen to like. Nonetheless, they are always asking me why I never pet the dog, pick her up, hug her, or anything like that. I haven't answered their question, but the truth is, that dog had better stay out of my way. I feed her and I'll join the girls in walking her, but that's it. I'd really rather that dog not be there truth be told.

[beemerman2k]

In the mauled cat story, why was the cat allowed to roam?

 

Wasn't my cat so I cannot say.

[4wheeldog]

It's all complicated by the propensity of the news media to pounce on every pit bull attack. Truthfully, can you remember the last time that you saw a TV news story about a poodle, labrador, or a beagle attacking someone?

 

The difference is that Pits kill, while other breeds (With the exception of Rottweilers) just bite and release. If Labs, beagles and poodles killed kids, they would certainly be in the news. Simple dog bites are not news.......Fatal dog bites are. Like I said earlier, the statistics are out there......You can look it up.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1979-1998-breeds-dogs-involved-in-fatal-human-attacks-us.pdf

 

[Kathy R]

In MY perfect world, not yours

 

In my perfect world....

 

Getting to the root of a problem is the way to solve it. Educate the Human. Work to ensure the Human is mentally healthy and happy and you eliminate the Humans need to abuse the animal. Get Society involved. Change the culture. Enlist the help of volunteers.

 

OMG! Do you know how long that would take? Do you educate by force? Are people forced to take the classes? What do you teach? Whose philosophy will you call upon that has any evidence of success? Any societal models you care to point out that demonstrate that this approach actually would work?

 

Yes, pray

A long time

If you don't go to school you are truant, so yes. And if you and I and people who care about animal welfare talked about how wrong it is to harm animals and got out and volunteered our time that might speed things up a bit. This is how civilized society works. It's a slow process. You don't turn an ocean liner on a dime.

 

Enforce existing laws.

 

People who fight dogs or cocks or who spear bulls are not doing it simply because it's a culturally accepted sport. Just what does it take to gain pleasure from the suffering and maiming of an animal?

 

:confused: And this "pleasure" can be learned out of them? Based upon what evidence (as opposed to ideology) do you think so?

I don't believe its an ideology. I think its a malfunction in behavior, similar to the act of committing rape. This behavior is based in how the person was raised or socialized. Garbage in. Garbage out.

 

Getting rid of the breed is moving the problem.

 

Let's get rid of motorcycles or limit their engines because they are dangerous vs let's educate riders and drivers. Same argument in my book.

 

2 points: 1) are you also for people owning lions and tigers? If not, why not? Same thing for pit bulls.

 

No

Domesticated dogs are not wild cats. In fact there is some question about the domesticity of cats in general.

 

2) if motorcycles are posing a danger to the general public, then yes, get rid of them! So far, it's only the rider and passenger who pays the price for any mistakes out there, thus no social outcry. But if motorcycles start becoming tools for terrorist bombs and bank robbers and sick, human torpedoes against the general public, then yes, we need to consider what it would mean to remove the tool -- unless it would easily be shown that another tool would be used that is equally as effective (bicycles, for instance).

 

Oh, I've heard plenty of non riders, who aren't educated about the sport, make comments that motorcycles shouldn't be allowed on the roads. "Lets ban them, as they make too much noise".

[Ron_B]

It's actually kind of interesting what's happened with pit bulls over the years. Once considered the All-American family dog...

 

 

Petey

[szurszewski]

 

However, I disagree on the outlawing of breeds. In my recollection, German Shepherds, Dobies, and others have worn the mantle of "vicious dog." I don't know where or how you'd draw the line--does everything other than a golden retriever get euthanized?

 

I don't think we could save the goldens - they're pretty high strung and often a bit bitey.

[szurszewski]

It's all complicated by the propensity of the news media to pounce on every pit bull attack. Truthfully, can you remember the last time that you saw a TV news story about a poodle, labrador, or a beagle attacking someone?

 

The difference is that Pits kill, while other breeds (With the exception of Rottweilers) just bite and release. If Labs, beagles and poodles killed kids, they would certainly be in the news. Simple dog bites are not news.......Fatal dog bites are. Like I said earlier, the statistics are out there......You can look it up.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1979-1998-breeds-dogs-involved-in-fatal-human-attacks-us.pdf

 

I'm not sure your logic is valid. After reading your post saying you'd never heard of a JRT killing anyone, I googled it. I'm not going to post a link, but I'm sure you could google it too if you wanted.

 

And I'm by no means trying to say anything about the breed - I think they're pretty neat dogs (though, I think that about most dogs - staffordshire terriers included), but dogs are dogs, domesticated though they may be, and canines are carnivores.

[beemerman2k]

Oh, I've heard plenty of non riders, who aren't educated about the sport, make comments that motorcycles shouldn't be allowed on the roads. "Lets ban them, as they make too much noise".

 

The subject here is the actual danger dogs, or motorcycles, pose to others. The OP didn't pull his weapon on the pitt bull because it was "making too much noise", but because it posed a physical thread to him.

 

If dogs posed a danger only to their owners just like motorcycles only tend to endanger their owners, this thread wouldn't exist. The public wouldn't care who owned a pitt bull; that's nobody's business but your own since as the owner, you're the only one who will suffer the consequences of your own decisions.

 

But that's not the case here, the problem is that others have to suffer the consequences of a bad owner's decisions, thus the existence of this thread.

 

I see no feasible comparison between dog ownership and motorcycle ownership.

[Husker Red]

It's all complicated by the propensity of the news media to pounce on every pit bull attack. Truthfully, can you remember the last time that you saw a TV news story about a poodle, labrador, or a beagle attacking someone?

 

The difference is that Pits kill, while other breeds (With the exception of Rottweilers) just bite and release. If Labs, beagles and poodles killed kids, they would certainly be in the news. Simple dog bites are not news.......Fatal dog bites are. Like I said earlier, the statistics are out there......You can look it up.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1979-1998-breeds-dogs-involved-in-fatal-human-attacks-us.pdf

 

+1. I'm a dog person, but I would never own several of the breeds mentioned here, particularly a pitbull for well documented reasons. Here around Atlanta pitbulls are very popular. Sadly, it's also common to see "Family pet mauls child" headlines in the newspaper. The owners are usually shocked that their loving dog would go viscious. I completely agree that many of the attacks come from dogs with bad owners - "tough guys" who like the image of a bad ass dog - but there are also too many formerly good dogs that went bezerk. And when a pit goes bezerk the consequences are horrible.

 

With all of the wonderful breeds of dogs available why take the chance on one that has a significant chance of randomly going off and killing somebody? You wouldn't own a gun that has a 1 in a million probability of randomly shooting your kids.

[doc47]

I am leery of pit bulls. My son's college roommate had one that was sweet and friendly and whom I eventually got fond of....and who eventually bit someone badly.

 

Breeding will tell...

 

They shouldn't be permitted. But then, here I am asking gov't to intervene?

[doc47]

Your post reminded me of a situation I found myself in when I was working. We (The fellow I was working with and I) were sitting in the City truck, eating lunch, in the parking area of a marina. Tough guy (Wife beater, tattoos, including the teardrops indicative of time spent in stoney lonesome) was walking his Pit. Dog had a very heavy chain, with spikes, around his neck. Dumbass owner removes leash, throws tennis ball into the water for dog to fetch. Dog attempts retrieve, but chain is too heavy, dog sinks. Dumbass owner comes unglued, runs over to our (City) truck, and screams at us, demanding we "Save his dog!"

Of course we did not go in the water (Which was at least 10' deep where the dog disappeared) after the dog. Even if we had located it, the dog might have killed us.

Dumbass owner actually complained to the Mayor. Complaint didn't go very far.

 

 

That's hilarious. Let's take up a collection to buy those collars for every pit bull!

[David13]

"In fact there is some question about the domesticity of cats in general."

 

Let us be cautious about the things we say here, ok?

dc

 

[beemerman2k]

"In fact there is some question about the domesticity of cats in general."

 

Let us be cautious about the things we say here, ok?

dc

 

One thing for sure, you have to define the terms you use. "Domesticity" means what? The likelihood of obeying a master's commands? The likelihood of actually harming another human? I think cats do very well on this measure. I suppose one can google "house cat attacks", but I don't think they're likely to attack unprovoked, except maybe playful kittens.

 

So once we define "domesticity", we can better measure just how "domestic" various breeds of dogs are. And to me, if lions and tigers are regarded as undomestic, even the ones that are practically born and raised in a domestic environment, that suggests something about their likelihood of those cats fatally attacking someone. And if we want to ban those animals on that basis, then we must continue that ban to all animals on that same basis -- except humans, of course :smirk:

[KLC]

Pit bulls are on the prohibited list in the UK. Even the ones deemed as family dogs can kill, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6226565.stm.

 

I am a dog owner and have had various breeds including a Jack Russel terrier which was used for hunting . He grew up with my kids and was very protective around them but i still wouldnt leave him unattended when the kids where about. He used to want to fight all the local dogs and no amount of training would stop him . I currently have a border collie all he wants to do is be made a fuss of.

Having been bitten numerous times by dogs as i was a telephone linesman going in and out of peoples property who always said "dont mind the dog he wont hurt you" i think you are justified in pulling a gun if you feel threatened by a dog that is out of control.

 

 

[4wheeldog]

It's all complicated by the propensity of the news media to pounce on every pit bull attack. Truthfully, can you remember the last time that you saw a TV news story about a poodle, labrador, or a beagle attacking someone?

 

The difference is that Pits kill, while other breeds (With the exception of Rottweilers) just bite and release. If Labs, beagles and poodles killed kids, they would certainly be in the news. Simple dog bites are not news.......Fatal dog bites are. Like I said earlier, the statistics are out there......You can look it up.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1979-1998-breeds-dogs-involved-in-fatal-human-attacks-us.pdf

 

I'm not sure your logic is valid. After reading your post saying you'd never heard of a JRT killing anyone, I googled it. I'm not going to post a link, but I'm sure you could google it too if you wanted.

 

And I'm by no means trying to say anything about the breed - I think they're pretty neat dogs (though, I think that about most dogs - staffordshire terriers included), but dogs are dogs, domesticated though they may be, and canines are carnivores.

 

Did you read the link I posted and you quoted? What percentage of fatal dog attacks are attributed to Pits? I guess I miss your point.....

[baggerchris]

google Jerry Yates pit bull.

 

He was a 69 year old ex marine who owned the Mountain Ranch Gas Station and was attacked by a friends two pit bulls on his property while he was under a car working on it. I rode with him many times. A real man, always armed outside his own property. A deputy told me from the evidence the fight went on and on and must have been something to see. They eventually bit a vital artery and they won. The trial is still being delayed.

 

I was advised in the CCW course I took many years ago here in KA., that if there was a way to escape without using your "carry" gun, you MUST take it. Otherwise known as "run". If the only way to preserve your life or someone else's life was to shoot, then shoot, otherwise don't. I would also extend that to rape, but that is just me.

[bayoubengal]

Being a dog lover and a right to bear arms supporter I have found this discussion fascinating. I own guns and dogs (Collie, Sheltie and a Cavalier King Charles). Great input and discussion from Kathy R and beemerman2k. I really enjoy the civility of this board. As far as the pit bulls I just don't get it. It is one of several breeds I would never own. And I very much like the idea of treating them like a lion or tiger...

[Kathy R]

"In fact there is some question about the domesticity of cats in general."

 

Let us be cautious about the things we say here, ok?

dc

 

One thing for sure, you have to define the terms you use. "Domesticity" means what? The likelihood of obeying a master's commands? The likelihood of actually harming another human? I think cats do very well on this measure. I suppose one can google "house cat attacks", but I don't think they're likely to attack unprovoked, except maybe playful kittens.

 

So once we define "domesticity", we can better measure just how "domestic" various breeds of dogs are. And to me, if lions and tigers are regarded as undomestic, even the ones that are practically born and raised in a domestic environment, that suggests something about their likelihood of those cats fatally attacking someone. And if we want to ban those animals on that basis, then we must continue that ban to all animals on that same basis -- except humans, of course :smirk:

 

Read THIS for more information about the domesticity, or not, of cats.

 

I'm very sorry that you had such horrible experiences as a child with dogs.

[Kathy R]

Oh, I've heard plenty of non riders, who aren't educated about the sport, make comments that motorcycles shouldn't be allowed on the roads. "Lets ban them, as they make too much noise".

 

The subject here is the actual danger dogs, or motorcycles, pose to others. The OP didn't pull his weapon on the pitt bull because it was "making too much noise", but because it posed a physical thread to him.

 

If dogs posed a danger only to their owners just like motorcycles only tend to endanger their owners, this thread wouldn't exist. The public wouldn't care who owned a pitt bull; that's nobody's business but your own since as the owner, you're the only one who will suffer the consequences of your own decisions.

 

But that's not the case here, the problem is that others have to suffer the consequences of a bad owner's decisions, thus the existence of this thread.

 

I see no feasible comparison between dog ownership and motorcycle ownership.

 

I think you missed my point. I responded to your comments.

 

People who are ill informed often make assumptions that were they better educated or were open minded about the topic may not hold that opinion. People who want to get rid of all motorcycles are not riders. But this is approaching the realm of off topic.

Back to the discussion about Pit Bulls

[beemerman2k]

Kathy, I'm sure that is a good book and all, but why don't you summarize the authors point for the purposes of this discussion? More specifically, what is the definition of "domesticity" as you use it? I am trying to see if we can all speak the same language here.

 

These are all just opinions and ideas. I'm not really the king, so my views carry no more weight than anyone else's At the end of the day we all have our own interpretation of the events that inspired this thread and that might not change for any of us. As I already admitted, I don't understand this love of dogs at all, so maybe I can learn what it is that people find so attractive in these animals -- especially pit bulls and Doberman's.

 

For instance, do dog owners consider their pets on equal footing as people? Should they? Who says that's right or wrong?

[Twisties]

One aspect that strikes me, which has only been barely touched upon, is that until one has been attacked, one is unlikely to prepare for an attack.

 

Everyone should know the basics:

 

A Decent Summary

 

In an HD I would have likely swept a shelf clear of merchandise into the dog's path, tried to grab something to use for him to latch on to, or tried to get a hold of something large to hold between me and the dog.

 

No need for a gun if you are mentally ready, and not locked into thinking of your gun as your first and only defense. I used a trash bag once when I was attacked while taking the trash out, worked beautifully. The dog would not come through it.

 

Of course, like Skywagon, the first time it happened to me I was completely unprepared. I reacted aggressively, e.g. turned to stare at it, and it went for my throat. Fortunately I was wearing winter attire and got my arm up. He got all coat. But the point is, then I sought info and learned.

 

The result being that this dog was saved. It's owners went to obedience school and learned to manage their pet. That's all that was needed. He is our neighbor still. I scratch his ears.

[beemerman2k]

When I was about 27 or so, I was walking down the street in Boston's Dorchester neighborhood. Dorchester (locally known as just "Dot") is a blue collar, Irish Catholic community full of some great people, history, and tradition. In any case, I was passing an auto mechanic shop, and a German Shepard saw me and was barking at me through a window. It then took off running, and sure enough, in front of me was a door from which the dog emerged.

 

Let me tell you what, I was not in the mood that day. So I thought to myself, "fine, you wanna go a few rounds with the champ, let's roll!" I hunched down, put up my fists, and got ready to rumble. That dog stopped just short of me, turned around, and went back inside. So I just continued walking to my destination.

 

My telling of my dog-riddled childhood was not to solicit sympathy for me. My point is that our nation is full of children who are living that nightmare even now at this very moment! Some of them don't have endless years to wait for society to engineer a solution; they need relief now! Unfortunately, they won't get it because I am not the king. Were I king...

[Danny caddyshack Noonan]

Long ago in a place far far away, similar situation as the OP, except in uniform and one of my more favorite stories.

The doper end, back corner, of a public park. Where the dopers hang out. Was on my way to make contact with them and about 50 yds out. One of them sent a black Lab-mix on me in a straight line from them to me...important point. Drew down on the dog, who stopped immediately once he saw my fairly aggressive stance.

 

Over the front blade I pleasantly watched all the dopers diving for cover as, where they had been was now the backstop. Those poor misunderstood individuals were offended that I had drawn down on their dog. In truth, perhaps I hadn't.

 

"It isn't the smart guy who gets hit in the jaw after being told he is going to be hit in the jaw."

 

"Hoot": This is my safety, sir.

[He holds up his index finger and bends motions as if squeezing a trigger and then walks off]

[Agent_Orange]

[doc47]

Beemerman,

 

By the authority vested in me, I now appoint you King!

 

Do you need a doctor's note?

[szurszewski]

It's all complicated by the propensity of the news media to pounce on every pit bull attack. Truthfully, can you remember the last time that you saw a TV news story about a poodle, labrador, or a beagle attacking someone?

 

The difference is that Pits kill, while other breeds (With the exception of Rottweilers) just bite and release. If Labs, beagles and poodles killed kids, they would certainly be in the news. Simple dog bites are not news.......Fatal dog bites are. Like I said earlier, the statistics are out there......You can look it up.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/1979-1998-breeds-dogs-involved-in-fatal-human-attacks-us.pdf

 

I'm not sure your logic is valid. After reading your post saying you'd never heard of a JRT killing anyone, I googled it. I'm not going to post a link, but I'm sure you could google it too if you wanted.

 

And I'm by no means trying to say anything about the breed - I think they're pretty neat dogs (though, I think that about most dogs - staffordshire terriers included), but dogs are dogs, domesticated though they may be, and canines are carnivores.

 

Did you read the link I posted and you quoted? What percentage of fatal dog attacks are attributed to Pits? I guess I miss your point.....

 

I did follow your link.

 

My point was, that if you google Jack Russell Terrier kills or fatal attack or some such, despite your never having hear of one killing someone, you can find accounts of such. I guess I had two points then, though the second was maybe just implied, and that is: how many attacks are ok per breed before we ban that breed?

[tallman]

Chris,

In Florida we no longer have a "duty" to retreat.

 

James,

Sorry that your experiences left such a bad impressiom.

 

As a counterpoint, I was bit numerous times as a child.

Not just threatened, but bit.

I have very large scars and punctures as souvenirs.

 

For some reason I nevered stopped loving dogs.

 

I did not provoke any bite.

 

I was playing sword fight

, probably 4 years old, with neighbors whose big dog came to their defense and ripped me a new one.

Trip to hospital.

Dove into a pool around age 7 when a huge German Shepherd leapt after me biting my thigh and making half dollar sized puncture, nearly drowning me in the pool.

Trip to hospital.

Playing football in the yard when a large GShep ran after me 9?) for whatever reason, large puncture right knee, trip to hospital.

There were several others of major nature and several minor (bleeding stopped/had a tetanus shot w/in x years/ ot I sewed it closed myself).

Never really blamed the dog.

 

Trained Dobermans.

Had a wonderful dog who was a constant companion for years.

She saved me from a robbery in Boston, a break in burlary in Miami,

and other attempted crimes.

Overall I've had many more positive experiences.

 

I'm leery of smaller dogs.

They bite more just don't generally have a fatal outcome.

 

I've seen so many wonderful Guide Dogs/Service Dogs et al. that I always marvel at the bond between human and canine whether that bond be a positive one, or like many have mentioned a negative one.

Best wishes.

[bayoubengal]

Beemerman,

 

By the authority vested in me, I now appoint you King!

 

Do you need a doctor's note?

 

That is just funny!

 

[4wheeldog]

 

I'm not sure your logic is valid. After reading your post saying you'd never heard of a JRT killing anyone, I googled it. I'm not going to post a link, but I'm sure you could google it too if you wanted.

 

Did you read the link I posted and you quoted? What percentage of fatal dog attacks are attributed to Pits? I guess I miss your point.....

 

I did follow your link.

 

My point was, that if you google Jack Russell Terrier kills or fatal attack or some such, despite your never having hear of one killing someone, you can find accounts of such. I guess I had two points then, though the second was maybe just implied, and that is: how many attacks are ok per breed before we ban that breed?

 

I actually did google, per your suggestion. I found a page full of references, that when actually read, did not implicate a Jack Russell in any fatal attack, rather just documented that one was present when a Pit killed someone, and was put down as a matter of course.

 

The only documented case where a JRT was implicated indirectly in the death of a human, it was an owner of multiple JRTs than interjected herself into a fight between the dogs, and died of infection sometime later. Can JRTs be nasty? You bet.....They just don't have a history of actually killing people on a regular basis.

 

Back to my original point, which you have handily sidestepped.....There is plenty of irrefutable documentation of Pits killing people. Other breeds........Not so much. If you wish to live in fear of JRTs, it is your right.......But I would suggest that concern about your family's safety around Pits is more logical.

[scout6]

Been reading, and noted the oft repeated arguments on both sides. No real new issues brought up, with one exception. Laughing as a dog drowned? This comment screams for someone in need of help. The death of this dog due to ignorance is not to be laughed at but pitied. Any living creature can be turned into a killer. The numbers quoted throughout the thread concerning one in a million guns, or one in a million dogs, fail to take into the discussion the greater than one in a million people who kill. The Pit Bull issue is a human one, as much as the killing with guns is.

Think about the number of children who readily kill when raised by war lords in countries around the world. Any advocates of mass killings to make us all safe?

Unless we are willing to address the issues of ignorance and hate that lead to many needless deaths, all of the other arguments merely dance around the edges of the problems.

Ban this, take away that, but do not address the main issues.

Am I a dog lover. Yup. Do I own two pit bulls. Yup, see my avatar. At 10 years old and 9, both were abused as puppies, and both have successfully become therapy dogs. Would I trust them around kids? Yup. Do I trust the kids around them. Nope. They did not work with my assigned group of children last year due to the children, not the dogs. I knew which group could be trusted and which could not.

Growing up south of the burn line in Detroit (Hi Beemerman2k), and surviving multiple combat tours, I believe my trust meter is pretty accurate at this point. Got the markings to show when I learned from my mistakes.

There are statistics to prove anything to those with time to dig and find them. Quote your favorites.

 

 

 

 

[szurszewski]

 

I'm not sure your logic is valid. After reading your post saying you'd never heard of a JRT killing anyone, I googled it. I'm not going to post a link, but I'm sure you could google it too if you wanted.

 

Did you read the link I posted and you quoted? What percentage of fatal dog attacks are attributed to Pits? I guess I miss your point.....

 

I did follow your link.

 

My point was, that if you google Jack Russell Terrier kills or fatal attack or some such, despite your never having hear of one killing someone, you can find accounts of such. I guess I had two points then, though the second was maybe just implied, and that is: how many attacks are ok per breed before we ban that breed?

 

quote 4wheeldog

I actually did google, per your suggestion. I found a page full of references, that when actually read, did not implicate a Jack Russell in any fatal attack, rather just documented that one was present when a Pit killed someone, and was put down as a matter of course.

 

The only documented case where a JRT was implicated indirectly in the death of a human, it was an owner of multiple JRTs than interjected herself into a fight between the dogs, and died of infection sometime later. Can JRTs be nasty? You bet.....They just don't have a history of actually killing people on a regular basis.

 

Back to my original point, which you have handily sidestepped.....There is plenty of irrefutable documentation of Pits killing people. Other breeds........Not so much. If you wish to live in fear of JRTs, it is your right.......But I would suggest that concern about your family's safety around Pits is more logical.

 

end quote 4wheeldog

 

Umm...live in fear of JRTs? As I said in my original reply to your post, I think they are neat dogs. My point is, regardless of whether you choose to believe it's possible, it is actually possible for a JRT to kill a person. I'm not going to bother arguing with you whether or not it's happened, because I don't see us coming to an agreement on that.

 

I'm not saying pit bulls don't kill people. I'm saying other dogs do to, as do other things - motorcycles included of course (and please don't tell me that motorcycles only kill their owners; certainly that's what happens most of the time, but it's not what happens ALL the time); I'm not ready to start imposing bans on things just because they kill people. Otherwise, I think we'd better get rid of cars first because they kill about 40,000 of us, just here in the US, every year.

 

Should people be careful with ALL dogs? Of course. Would I be particularly careful with a large, strong dog? Of course. Would I feel less bad if my JRT bit someone who later died of an infection (not the incident to which I was referring, but really irrelevant) than if my wolf-hybrid mauled someone who died more immediately? I kind of doubt it - the outcome is the same.