Pit Bull

[Skywagon]

Strange day...I was in a big box hardware store today. As I walked around the corner to look at some weedkiller in the garden center, a pitbull on a leash, held by a rather small lady started towards me in full growl. Instinctively I pulled my 45 and drew a bead. I was about a nano second from firing but was concerned I might hit the lady. I ducked a bit to the side and the dog hit the fertilizer bag. The boy was annoyed. The lady's husband came running over and grabbed him and of course the story goes...gosh he's never done that before he is very friendly.

 

Needless to say we had words. The manager came over and and said he thought he needed to call leo since the incidence involved a pitbull and a Kimber.

 

The leo came, nice that I knew him, and had animal care take the dog for evaulation. He asked me if I was still armed and did I have a CCW. Yes and Yes...He asked to see my paper and said he had no idea how I had the restraint to not shoot the dog. He reamed out the couple pretty good for bringing a pitbull into a public place. He then reamed the store manager for allowing the dog in the building ( even though he didn't know ). He told me to have a nice day. See ya.

[Lets_Play_Two]

In Florida you would have been locked up and lost your carry permit.

[Skywagon]

Bill...maybe so, but a carry permit that won't allow you to defend yourself isn't worth the paper it is written on.

[Lets_Play_Two]

Quite frankly I think your action was reckless and far from the self defense contemplated by concealed carry laws. Self-defense from a snarling dog on a leash? Do you really think you should be entitled to react to that circumstance with deadly force? I am glad your instincts kept you from doing something I think you would have regretted for a long, long time. The fact that you weren't even injured in this "attack" should prove to you that you over-reacted, because drawing your .45 was not what kept you safe by causing the dog to think twice.

 

I am sure you will disagree, but this is the opinion of someone looking at your facts and considering the outcome as would a jury.

[Twisties]

I wrote something long. I have deferred it until I calm down. Suffice it to say for now that I think each and every one of you was very far into the wrong.

 

...and one more thing... these stats are very sobering:

 

dog attack stats

 

We need not go back through the gun stats again so soon.

 

Wish me the restraint to refrain from commenting further on this thread until at least tomorrow.

[Lets_Play_Two]

Huh?

[elkroeger]

All I know is what my friend's dad, an attorney, told me: You'd better be damn sure that it's a life and death situation before you pull a gun. Anything less, even just a smidgen, and you're certain to spend a lot of time and money in court.

[Matts_12GS]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I guess that settles that then Jan...

 

[Dennis Andress]

Okay, maybe this really happened, maybe not. But I laughed my ass off. The part about the couple and the store manager getting reamed, and then the LEO telling you to have a nice day is rich.

[subvet]

Huh?

 

have you ever been bitten by a dog? I mean where the animal latchs on, shakes, and won't let go? (that's what they do)

 

I have to assume the OP's story is embellishment-free but after personally experiencing an attack by a "friendly" dog last October, it's easy to understand how one would shoot first and ask questions later.

[Mike O]

I'm still uncomfortable with the liberties some folks take in bringing their household pets into public retail establishments. It seems to be a trend that has been on the rise the last few years. Other than PetSmart (where they hold dog training classes), I'm always surprised/alarmed when I round the corner of an aisle and come across a pet (and hopefully the owner).

 

Lucky for you things turned out the way they did.

 

Mike O

[Lets_Play_Two]

it's easy to understand how one would shoot first and ask questions later.

 

In the described circumstances, that's pretty frightening.

[Ohio48]

I'm still uncomfortable with the liberties some folks take in bringing their household pets into public retail establishments. It seems to be a trend that has been on the rise the last few years. Other than PetSmart (where they hold dog training classes), I'm always surprised/alarmed when I round the corner of an aisle and come across a pet (and hopefully the owner).

 

I feel the same about small children, you know the little brats that are running around screaming and taking stuff of the shelf.

[Paul Mihalka]

Along those lines, after over 20 years in motorcycle sales, one of the worst things is parents or a dad alone coming to the shop with kids aged between 5 and 15 and leave them unattended. They want to climb over everything, push-pull everything, get on the bikes by themselves and go vroom-vroom. I love kids but I don't want to baby-sit them at the shop.

[Mike]

I live close to our town's downtown shopping area, and often take the dog for a walk there. A few months ago, I was tying my pup (a giant golden retriever) to the hitching post outside the Apple Store, when the manager came out and invited me to bring him in.

 

I've since done it a number of times, but I'm also mindful of the fact that it can cause some people to wig out. Nonetheless, I do it--he' a therapy dog and perfectly behaved. The problem, though, is that a lot of dogs are not so well-behaved and their owners refuse to account for that. At a minimum, it's rude to subject others to that; at worst, it can result it mayhem.

 

As far as Skywagon's encounter is concerned, I'm not so sure that I'd be critical.

[JayW]

...The boy was annoyed...

 

What boy???

[taters]

consider your self lucky if you lived in new york you would be doing 3 years in jail.. in new jersey you would also be posting this from jail...one of the many reasons im moving to florida

[Jack Herbst]

In Florida you would have been locked up and lost your carry permit.

 

Here in AZ no permit is required, conceled or not. You just assume everyone is packing. Keeps tempers in check and cuts down on road rage!

 

Jack

[tallman]

In Florida you would have been locked up and lost your carry permit.

 

Not so sure about that.

Plenty of stories in the press about communities banning certain dog breeds, LEO's defending themself from attack, plenty of stories of dogs mauling people and also other animals.

It may be reasonable for someone to be in fear of death or serious bodily harm and feel the need to defend themself from an animal that is aggressive and threatening.

I may have looked for something else to buffer an attack, but not being there I won't second guess the emotion he experienced.

 

I know we've been walking down the street minding our own business and Beth was attacked by a pit bull.

No provocation.

No contact.

We got no warning.

It just flew out from under a porch and bit her seriously in the leg.

It was difficult to remove the dog.

I wish I had another option at that time, and yes, I'm a dog lover with numerous dog rescues in our family (I think 5 right now).

I've been bit by German Shepherds numerous times, by Dobies a couple of times, and other assorted breeds at least once total of about 8 bites several leaving large scars and/or puncture wounds.

I don't know that your dog is immunized, will I have to get rabies shots if bitten?

There are many factors to consider.

YMMV.

Best wishes.

[g_frey]

As a sufferer from a pit bull attack on my leashed labrador let me say this. I could not get him off, the owner could not pull him off, the policeman could not beat him off with his nightstick after 15 minutes of trying, and the animal control guy had to choke him unconscience to make him let go about 25 minutes after the attack started. Again the owner went through the whole denial thing. Bone is exposed thru a 4" hole (not the only injury), my dog is crippled for life. $2000+ vet bills later the owner won't pay and leaves town. However the ass had a new pickup with a $3,000 sound system in it???? Your action was not reckless, but prudent. Please follow up and get this animal condemned.

[Antimatter]

Dogs, like people, often have reactions to things that have frightened them in the past or resemble things that make them uneasy.

 

As someone in the process of getting their carry permit I have to ask, what would have happened if the other party had drawn on you for drawing on their dog?

[Agent_Orange]

"what would have happened if the other party had drawn on you for drawing on their dog?"

 

Shots all around.

[tallman]

Make mine a double...

 

I didn't google/search, but when is the last time anyone heard of 2 CCW individuals drawing and firing in a public retail area?

 

[Antimatter]

Make mine a double...

 

I didn't google/search, but when is the last time anyone heard of 2 CCW individuals drawing and firing in a public retail area?

 

It does seem unlikely, but if I was the dog owner the other CCW guy would be looking at my gun.

[RT66Rider]

Make mine a double...

 

I didn't google/search, but when is the last time anyone heard of 2 CCW individuals drawing and firing in a public retail area?

 

It does seem unlikely, but if I was the dog owner the other CCW guy would be looking at my gun.

 

Are you are saying that the owner has the right to protect his dog with deadly force, even when it is posing a potentially lethal threat to an innocent human being ???

Or is it your opinion that the value of the dogs life is equal to that of the OP's ?

 

What if there had been a child involved, and the owner had not succeeded in harnessing the animal.

 

For me, it would have been shoot first, then ask questions.

[Agent_Orange]

" if I was the dog owner the other CCW guy would be looking at my gun."

 

Say what?? Your pit bull is attacking someone. He defends himself. And you are going to throw down on him?

 

We live in a truly wacky time and place. UFB!

[Mike]

 

It does seem unlikely, but if I was the dog owner the other CCW guy would be looking at my gun.

 

In most--in fact, I'd guess almost all--jurisdictions in the U.S. you would be committing a felony. The brandishing of a weapon and/or the use of deadly force against someone who is acting lawfully doesn't cut it.

[Bud]

I haven't ever read a report of a pit bull attack where the owner admitted the dog was dangerous. And therein lies the danger.

 

Like it or not, these dogs have been bred to kill. If you own one and want to tell me why I'm wrong, don't waste the bandwidth.

 

If I were King, there wouldn't be pit bulls in the US.

 

 

[tallman]

FWIW I have friends with the Bull and a couple are great dogs, friendly, playful etc.

They may or may not be atypical.

[4wheeldog]

In Florida you would have been locked up and lost your carry permit.

 

Bullsh!t. Defending one's self from an eminent threat is the entire point of having a CCW. A loaded pit bull is no different from any other self directed weapon. Just because the dog has an owner being dragged on the other end of a leash does not constitute "Under control".

 

In my tiny view of the world, no one should ride a bike that they can't get both feet on the ground, and no one should be in charge of a dog they cannot control. I can control my dogs by voice over a distance, but I would never own a pit bull, because I would never trust one. That can be sweet, but should never be allowed the opportunity to attack. That is just me.

 

I have been on the receiving end of a pit bull on the attack, and I would have happily shot it, if I had happened to be carrying. I had to resort to rocks instead. His LEO owner was upset at me for using rocks on his dog. He would not acknowledge that the dog was a problem, so animal control dealt with him (The owner).

 

You are not required to wait for actual injury before you take action. If you wait with a pit bull, you will lose your chance.......Maybe permanently.

[Bud]

I don't have any reason to disbelieve you.

 

But if they ever bite, your friends will say the same.

 

My son had a Jack Russell. Fantastic dog, but the reputable breeders will take back any that bites.

 

After several years of being a family pet it attacked a woman friend of ours, unprovoked. Son took him back to breeder. Dog then attacks a young girl. Breeder shot the dog.

 

With some breeds you never know and that is always the problem.

 

Glad it works out for your friends.

 

Doesn't change my mind about the breed.

[Marty Hill]

Skywagon, a +1 to your actions. You were fully justified!

[Paul Mihalka]

I am not a gun enthusiast, but if in Skywagon's situation you cannot legally use the gun, then what the heck are you carry it for?

[yabadabapal]

Well, at this point, I need to speak with the dog and get his side of the story.

[szurszewski]

I don't have any reason to disbelieve you.

 

But if they ever bite, your friends will say the same.

 

My son had a Jack Russell. Fantastic dog, but the reputable breeders will take back any that bites.

 

After several years of being a family pet it attacked a woman friend of ours, unprovoked. Son took him back to breeder. Dog then attacks a young girl. Breeder shot the dog.

 

With some breeds you never know and that is always the problem.

 

Glad it works out for your friends.

 

Doesn't change my mind about the breed.

 

So, then, as King, are you getting rid of Jack Russels as well? I guess both are terrier breeds, so maybe just eliminate all the terriers?

 

Sorry - really not meaning to be offensive, and though I've been reading this thread I've been trying really hard - though obviously not hard enough - to not post - but I just want to make sure I'm understanding your position.

[4wheeldog]

I have 3 Jack Russells, as well as 2 more previously. They may or may not be as likely to bite as a Pit Bull, but the difference is, when a Pit bites, it is very likely to kill (Very often, the victim is a child). I have never heard of a JRT killing a person. Pits are way over represented in the fatal attack statistics. You can look it up.

 

 

[Lets_Play_Two]

Just to quote the OP:

 

"As I walked around the corner to look at some weedkiller in the garden center, a pitbull on a leash, held by a rather small lady started towards me in full growl."

 

There have been a lot of assumptions made in this tread about the threat. Quite frankly, based on this eye witness statement, I don't see a DEADLY threat.

 

Further:

 

"Instinctively I pulled my 45 and drew a bead. I was about a nano second from firing but was concerned I might hit the lady. I ducked a bit to the side and the dog hit the fertilizer bag."

 

Two observations. I don't know the exact distance but someone I am sure knows how close (far) away a human attacker can be when you don't have time to draw and aim. I can assume a dog would close a greater distance in a shorter time, so how far away was this leashed dog OR was his ability to attack restrained by that small lady holding the leash? By the OP's own statement he was simply able to step to the side "a bit" to avoid any contact by the dog.

 

IMHO, I do not see a threat that justifies coming within a "nano second" of using deadly force. Hence my feeling the action was reckless.

 

You can argue all you want about the dangers of pit bulls or whether they should be in stores, but I don't see that as the issue here.

[Skywagon]

I have read all the posts and recognize people will always have different views and that is ok...however there is no question in my mind it was justifiable. I'll help with the picture a bit.

 

Think of the image you have of the reputation of a pit bull, right or wrong, with or without prejudice. I'm walking down an aisle and as I reach an intersection a pit bull comes at me at full growl. He meant business and if had reached me it would have created great harm to me. What you can't tell from my first post is I don't see the lady or the leash as she is several paces away. As I am preparing to defend myself the leash takes hold and I see the picture. That is what stopped me firing. Understand the dog was within about 6-9 inches when he finished his lunge. The lady on the other end must have been a whopping 5'2" and all of about 100 lbs with a dog on a leash of at least 6-8 feet.

 

I obviously startled the dog as I entered his blind spot, and he certainly was an iminent threat to me. You can't judge that unless you were there.

 

I am very thankful it didn't escalate from there, however you may feel I respect it, however don't suggest it wasn't a very dangerous scenario the irresponsible dog owner allowed to happen.

 

As Forrest Gump said...thats all I have to say about that.

 

[AviP]

Dog defense 101: See dangerous dog running or walking towards you in threatening manner, remove shirt or jacket, wrap it over your hand, thrust into mouth of pouncing dog, choke it and kick it.

 

It worked for me! Twice!

[Agent_Orange]

What shirt or jacket???? This is Fla.

[taters]

Difference between a man and a dog

"if you find a dog on the street, take him home and make him prosperous, he will

Not bite you". Mark Twain

[MarkyP]

Reasonable fear for a person's life or fear of great bodily harm is all that is usually required to justify the use of deadly force. You do NOT have to be bit, stabbed, or shot before you are allowed to defend yourself.

[Quinn]

Two observations. I don't know the exact distance but someone I am sure knows how close (far) away a human attacker can be when you don't have time to draw and aim. I can assume a dog would close a greater distance in a shorter time, so how far away was this leashed dog OR was his ability to attack restrained by that small lady holding the leash?

 

For a human attacker, Seven yards. If they're within twenty one feet, they are an immediate threat and can be shot. Farther away and you should run, negotiate, warn, etc. Learned that in my concealed carry class.

 

----

 

 

[beemerman2k]

I haven't ever read a report of a pit bull attack where the owner admitted the dog was dangerous. And therein lies the danger.

 

Like it or not, these dogs have been bred to kill. If you own one and want to tell me why I'm wrong, don't waste the bandwidth.

 

If I were King, there wouldn't be pit bulls in the US.

 

 

This is my view as well. Yes, were I king, they'd be gone! Tough.

[Uncle Beemer]

This incident would have been completely avoided if people would quit thinking of their pets as people. They aren't. They crap every where, pee where they want. Most pet owners will not even clean up after them after a walk in the park. Why do they need to take 'em to the hardware store? Even more ridiculous is when they bring their pets to outdoor eating areas.

[AviP]

Two observations. I don't know the exact distance but someone I am sure knows how close (far) away a human attacker can be when you don't have time to draw and aim. I can assume a dog would close a greater distance in a shorter time, so how far away was this leashed dog OR was his ability to attack restrained by that small lady holding the leash?

 

For a human attacker, Seven yards. If they're within twenty one feet, they are an immediate threat and can be shot. Farther away and you should run, negotiate, warn, etc. Learned that in my concealed carry class.

 

----

 

I don't think those numbers have anything to do with the threat factor. They seem more related to the 'general' aim factor of the person being threatened. I don't understand how 7 yards can be a thumb rule for being threatened. That's the next room in most houses. Generalizations like this are meaningless.

[Mike]

I don't think those numbers have anything to do with the threat factor. They seem more related to the 'general' aim factor of the person being threatened. I don't understand how 7 yards can be a thumb rule for being threatened. That's the next room in most houses. Generalizations like this are meaningless.

 

It's actually far from meaningless. The seven-yard rule comes from a study by Sgt Dennis Tueller of the Salt Lake City P.D. in the 1980s, in an attempt to determine how much distance an attacker with a knife could cover in 1.5 seconds, the average time it takes an officer to draw and fire on a known threat. Tueller determined that anyone with seven yards--21 feet--posed an immediate threat, one that likely could not be defused in the time it takes to unholster and shoot a gun.

 

The "Tueller Drill," meant to illustrate and train for this scenario is widely taught in law enforcement training academies in the United States. The whole concept is virtually universally accepted among law enforcement agencies and most individual police officers. However, it's a little hard for the average guy or gal to conceive of this, having not been through the training.

[tallman]

I tried that today with my neighbor.

Gave him an axe and put him 18 1/2 feet away.

 

 

 

 

 

Ooops, I need a new training partner.

 

What did I do wrong?

[4wheeldog]

What did I do wrong?

 

Easy......You live in Floriduh......Your neighbor was too old to move that fast.

[Kathy R]

I tried that today with my neighbor.

Gave him an axe and put him 18 1/2 feet away.

 

 

 

 

 

Ooops, I need a new training partner.

 

What did I do wrong?

 

 

 

Skywagon, I have no doubt that you knew what you were doing. I'm grateful that you and every being involved came out of it without a scratch.

 

As for the comments about Pit Bulls being a breed worthy of elimination I suggest we put more energy into the eradication of the humans who seek to breed dogs who exhibit the will to kill.

 

I just returned from Tortola, where all the dogs resembled the Pit Bull breed. The sport of fighting dogs is a socially acceptable, somewhat hidden, pastime in the BVI. A woman noticed a Pit Bull tied to a dock pole, treading water for it's life. She attempted to rescue the dog from it's plight, when a man jumped out of nowhere to yell, "Don't touch my property". Yeah, the dog was in training. Horrible, huh? It's not the breed. It's what the HUMAN ASSHAT is doing to the breed. Stop the human and you save the breed. Don't get me started on people who breed dogs with snouts so short that they have great difficulty breathing...

 

If I were in Skywagon's same shoes, with his training and equipment, I have no doubt that I'd have drawn my gun. The bite of an unknown Pit Bull is not to be underestimated.