The decline of America

[TyTass]

Wrong wrong wrong wrongety wrong wrong!

To which post are you referring, Doc?

[Bud]

 

Moderator Edit: Post removed for political content.

[russell_bynum]

Well, any leadership had better take a good look around at the long term consequences of where they'd like to lead us. I fear too many prefer to take the short term approach (scary shades of Cameron's "Avatar") and don't give a damn about cutting down the very last Truffula tree.

 

Haven't seen the movie, but I definitely agree that we need leadership...which involves long-term strategy rather than short-term knee-jerk feel-good "solutions".

 

Another symptom of the disease: complete lack of shame (let someone ELSE pay for the deficit--I'm gonna keep mine!).

 

Maybe I'm missing something...your link is about a tax evasion case with Deutsche Bank...what does that have to do with the deficit and people's attitudes about it? Regarding the deficit...I've been saying we're spending ourselves into oblivion for well over two decades now, so you won't get any argument from me about that.

 

And another symptom of the rate of progression of the disease: when 75 of your future leaders of the country don't even qualify to serve in the military you've got a VERY serious problem.

"If you can't get the people that you need, there's a potential for a decline in your readiness," said Barnett, who is part of the group Mission: Readiness, a coalition of retired military leaders working to bring awareness to the high ineligibility rates.

 

The report by The Education Trust found that 23 percent of recent high school graduates don't get the minimum score needed on the enlistment test to join any branch of the military. Questions are often basic, such as: "If 2 plus x equals 4, what is the value of x?"

 

The military exam results are also worrisome because the test is given to a limited pool of people: Pentagon data shows that 75 percent of those aged 17 to 24 don't even qualify to take the test because they are physically unfit, have a criminal record or didn't graduate high school.

 

I think you meant to say "75%", not "75". I saw that article the other day...very disturbing. What's even more disturbing is that we keep spending more and more on education and it seems like every dollar we spend makes the problem worse. I did a bit of googling and it looks like we've spent a shade over $600 Billion (That's $600,000,000,000) on the Federal Department of Education Budget since 2002. (I only went back to 2002 because I got tired of digging at that point. I'd love to see how much money we've pissed away into the ED budget since they started in 1980 if anyone has those numbers.) Is that money doing anything for us? Are our schools turning out better students as a result of that money? And...that's just the Federal budget...nevermind what we're spending at the state, local, and individual level. And for what??? Every report that we hear says that we're falling more and more behind.

 

We never seem to want to stop and look back at our expenses and say..."OK..we spent $X trying to accomplish Y. Here's what we actually accomplished. Was that a worthwhile expenditure? If not...why? Should we continue spending that money every year or should we cut our losses and try something else?"

[Bob Palin]

I think you meant to say "75%", not "75".

Ahem, 1 in 4 is 25% not 75% (rolls eyes!)

[russell_bynum]

I think you meant to say "75%", not "75".

Ahem, 1 in 4 is 25% not 75% (rolls eyes!)

 

I assumed he was talking about this quote:

 

The military exam results are also worrisome because the test is given to a limited pool of people: Pentagon data shows that 75 percent of those aged 17 to 24 don't even qualify to take the test because they are physically unfit, have a criminal record or didn't graduate high school.

 

So...75% aren't even eligible to take the test, and 25% of the ones that do take it, fail.

[Bob Palin]

Fair enough, that really is a discouraging stat.

[russell_bynum]

Fair enough, that really is a discouraging stat.

 

No kidding.

 

No offense to the military types (I have nothing by the highest respect), but it isn't like you've got to be a rocket scientist to get in. I'd be interesting to know...of that 75% who isn't even eligible to take the test...how many is because of criminal records vs. no high school diploma vs. not physically fit enough?

[Ken H.]

What's even more disturbing is that we keep spending more and more on education and it seems like every dollar we spend makes the problem worse. I did a bit of googling and it looks like we've spent a shade over $600 Billion (That's $600,000,000,000) on the Federal Department of Education Budget since 2002. (I only went back to 2002 because I got tired of digging at that point. I'd love to see how much money we've pissed away into the ED budget since they started in 1980 if anyone has those numbers.) Is that money doing anything for us? Are our schools turning out better students as a result of that money? And...that's just the Federal budget...nevermind what we're spending at the state, local, and individual level. And for what??? Every report that we hear says that we're falling more and more behind.

 

We never seem to want to stop and look back at our expenses and say..."OK..we spent $X trying to accomplish Y. Here's what we actually accomplished. Was that a worthwhile expenditure? If not...why? Should we continue spending that money every year or should we cut our losses and try something else?"

Yup, it’s my pet peeve on why the West in general, and the USA specifically, is in decline; the sad, sad state of the educational system.

 

For Bill Gate’s take on what it might take to turn it around, go here – Bill Gates on Education

 

(Interesting that this was a Canadian magazine interviewing him. Where’s the interest/outrage in the USA about the issue?)

 

[Matts_12GS]

Fair enough, that really is a discouraging stat.

 

No kidding.

 

No offense to the military types (I have nothing by the highest respect), but it isn't like you've got to be a rocket scientist to get in. I'd be interesting to know...of that 75% who isn't even eligible to take the test...how many is because of criminal records vs. no high school diploma vs. not physically fit enough?

 

Quite honestly, you don't need to have rocket surgeon to go find mines or catch bullets. You do need someone who can think through things when fixing airplanes and engines and great big expensive pieces. You can be fat and take the ASVAB, you just better be smart and willing to get skinny.

 

I did a couple tours of what is called HARP duty, going back to where I enlisted from and working with recruiters, speaking at high schools and the like. It is let kids see that guy who graduated a year or so before them who's home now and look at that cool uniform, etc.

 

It was pretty cool to do, but even back in the early 80s most kids were more focused on getting into college and finding a profession instead of joining the service and learning a trade of vocation. Even fewer of those that joined actually bridged one to the other.

[russell_bynum]

What's even more disturbing is that we keep spending more and more on education and it seems like every dollar we spend makes the problem worse. I did a bit of googling and it looks like we've spent a shade over $600 Billion (That's $600,000,000,000) on the Federal Department of Education Budget since 2002. (I only went back to 2002 because I got tired of digging at that point. I'd love to see how much money we've pissed away into the ED budget since they started in 1980 if anyone has those numbers.) Is that money doing anything for us? Are our schools turning out better students as a result of that money? And...that's just the Federal budget...nevermind what we're spending at the state, local, and individual level. And for what??? Every report that we hear says that we're falling more and more behind.

 

We never seem to want to stop and look back at our expenses and say..."OK..we spent $X trying to accomplish Y. Here's what we actually accomplished. Was that a worthwhile expenditure? If not...why? Should we continue spending that money every year or should we cut our losses and try something else?"

Yup, it’s my pet peeve on why the West in general, and the USA specifically, is in decline; the sad, sad state of the educational system.

 

For Bill Gate’s take on what it might take to turn it around, go here – Bill Gates on Education

 

(Interesting that this was a Canadian magazine interviewing him. Where’s the interest/outrage in the USA about the issue?)

 

Very interesting article.

 

I agree...everyone who does a job needs to have their performance evaluated and their compensation and advancement needs to be based on those evaluations rather than seniority and other meaningless things. IMO, this is probably the worst thing that unions have done.

 

But I wonder about other things like our obsession with standardized tests rather than learning how to think and function in the world.

[Bud]

My wife is a retired teacher and when the state tests were introduced in Illinois, the focus of teaching changed (3rd grade).

 

No Child Left Behind was something that had a lot of unintended consequences. Teaching to the test was one of them.

[Bud]

My apology to the forum members.

 

In a state of temporary brain fade, I posted a thread that was a clear violation of the no politics policy.

 

I apologize and vow to not let that happen again.

[beemerman2k]

What an excellent example of a member who cares more about the health of the community than having his own way around here.

 

Bud, your attitude is very refreshing. Thank you

[Whip]

Wrong, all our advances have come from individuals doing what they believed, often against the collective.

Oh common, the individual can’t do anything individually!

 

The best and brightest individuals are good at getting others involved with making whatever they want to happen happen, but at that moment the success is no longer an individual one, it is a group, a collective, success. The individual may (inappropriately) take, or get all the credit, but in reality it isn’t true.

 

As a matter of fact a key component of what makes them great to start with is their recognition of the need to surround themselves with other great people.

 

Name one person recognized as ‘great’ that got there without a legion of support (at the very least) people.

 

BS....Do you know what a LEADER is???

 

Our country is all about being an individual.

 

We have lost that.....it is time to get back to looking in the mirror, for the answers.

 

The greatest innovations/inventions of all time were invented by individuals not groups.

 

Don't make me name em. We don't have enough bandwidth.

 

 

 

 

[plext]

Ousiders view here naturally so please bear with me or tell me to sod off as you please.

 

Looking at the USA from the outside in, it appears that this thread sums up entirely what the issue appears to be as it presents to those viewing from the sidelines.

 

Namely, there appears to be two idealogical camps who cannot or will not admit that anything of what the opposing side plans is of any merit whatsoever. The result is gridlock and generally no compromise positions at all, just more of the same largely.

 

What comes out of this is in essence this thread: reams of bickering and ideas tossed about, but nobody actually doing anything.

 

As stated, outsiders view so holds no weight whatever, but to use the vernacular; just sayin'.

[Dave McReynolds]

Namely, there appears to be two idealogical camps who cannot or will not admit that anything of what the opposing side plans is of any merit whatsoever. The result is gridlock and generally no compromise positions at all, just more of the same largely.

 

 

Exactly.

[Whip]

Ousiders view here naturally so please bear with me or tell me to sod off as you please.

 

Looking at the USA from the outside in, it appears that this thread sums up entirely what the issue appears to be as it presents to those viewing from the sidelines.

 

Namely, there appears to be two idealogical camps who cannot or will not admit that anything of what the opposing side plans is of any merit whatsoever. The result is gridlock and generally no compromise positions at all, just more of the same largely.

 

What comes out of this is in essence this thread: reams of bickering and ideas tossed about, but nobody actually doing anything.

 

As stated, outsiders view so holds no weight whatever, but to use the vernacular; just sayin'.

 

 

You may be right, but I think folks are doing things about it as individuals.

 

I invested in a new bidness because of the events of the last month.

 

Just remember some of the views in this thread are in the main stream of our country and some are not. I will leave it to you to decide which is which.

 

Please feel free to jump in and ask whatever you want, or comment on whatever you wish.

 

This thread does not represent our country proportionally. It only represents a small group of great folk's opinions.

 

 

 

 

 

[Whip]

Already am familiar with your link... read up on it years ago. BTW, you never answered the question from my previous post.

 

 

Based the budget to the previous years spending.

 

Payrol Tax Holiday.

 

Agreed not to raise taxes in 2011.

 

 

Easy and effective.

 

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

[The greatest innovations/inventions of all time were invented by individuals not groups.

Please name the individuals that invented

 

1) The internet (and I don't mean the web)

2) GPS

 

(picking those two for starters as they seem to be widely used by the inmates here)

 

And though the invention of the WWW is rightly credited to an individual he couldn't have done it without the financial and technical cooperation of CERN - a communal institution. He knew that communal effort was going to be needed to develop the web further and is director of the WWW Consortium a totally society supported organization.

[tallman]

Russell,

Not wanting to hijack this thread but the inclusion of No Child/stand testting/"everyone with a job needs to be evaluated" direction will get a response>

It would take months to scratch the surface, but evaluating a teacher based on a standardized test isn't always going to provide anything of value wrt effective teaching.

The new "Race to the Top" program from the FED's is an example.

Here's a taste.

High schools in Florida (which just qualified to "Race") may be penalized for any student who enters 8th grade and doesn't graduate from high school in 5 years.

No retention or penalties.

Then, said student must complete a year of post-secondary education w/in time limit or the high school may be penalized.

No GED's allowed, high school penalized.

This despite the fact that a student could leave high school early, pass the GED, go to a Community College, earn 2 years of credit and head off to a 4 year college (all by the time thye would have graduated from high school) and yet, their high school will still be penalized.

Earn a scholarship out of state?

YOur high school may be penalzied.

Entire senior class earn scholarship to Harvard and goes there.

Yep, the high schoolmay be penalized.

 

So I'll leave it at that.

The "results" of testing the teacher via the student and the school based on certain criteria (that may be from Mars) yields headlines and not much else.

Yes, hundreds of billions have been spent, and in many ways it hasn't been to fight the good fight.

What can you do when you have a .45 and they keep sending you 9mm ammo?

I think you'll find a direct link to the "decline" of America and the gov's decision to standardize education and test to show that approach was working.

If that approach worked, students would have shown higher levels of critical thinking skills, problem solving skills, greater mastery of core subjects, an intrisic motivation to learn for the sake of learning and an appreciation for the sense of history that led America to become the greatest country on the planet.

Didn't happen and won't until we learn the error of this approach.

Best wishes.

[John Ranalletta]

I see the challenge in education somewhat differently and believe parents are more critical to student success than teachers. Good parenting supports good teachers and drives out bad. The link is to a pdf article written in 2006.

 

Educators in Crisis

[Whip]

[The greatest innovations/inventions of all time were invented by individuals not groups.

Please name the individuals that invented

 

1) The internet (and I don't mean the web)

2) GPS

 

(picking those two for starters as they seem to be widely used by the inmates here)

 

And though the invention of the WWW is rightly credited to an individual he couldn't have done it without the financial and technical cooperation of CERN - a communal institution. He knew that communal effort was going to be needed to develop the web further and is director of the WWW Consortium a totally society supported organization.

 

 

As usual your ain't even close to the answer to your own question.

 

Internet.... Vinton G. Cerf at Stanford University, Donald Davies (NPL), Paul Baran (RAND Corporation), and Leonard Kleinrock at MIT and at UCLA

 

or if ya wanna really go to the begining...James Clerk Maxwell, Heinrich Rudolf Hertz and Guglielmo Marconi.

 

 

 

GPS.... Ivan_A._Getting ... or if ya wanna go to the true father of Global Positioning... Galileo

 

..not to mention without Gates and Jobs we would not have ever met and you would still be in the dark on so many subjects.

 

Merry Christmas, Bob

 

BTW....Did I see a Christmas Tree in the house of an atheist.

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm????

[Boffin]

 

BTW....Did I see a Christmas Tree in the house of an atheist.

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm????

 

Why not? The evergreen tree is a symbol of fertility and forms a central part of midwinter celebrations that pre-date Christianity by millennia - the same applies to holly, ivy, the red of the blood and the green of the new fertility - all of the symbols associated with Christmas, with the exception of the crib, pre-date the Christian festival.

 

Andy

[Whip]

 

BTW....Did I see a Christmas Tree in the house of an atheist.

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm????

 

Why not? The evergreen tree is a symbol of fertility and forms a central part of midwinter celebrations that pre-date Christianity by millennia - the same applies to holly, ivy, the red of the blood and the green of the new fertility - all of the symbols associated with Christmas, with the exception of the crib, pre-date the Christian festival.

 

Andy

 

 

That all sounds good, but I know Janet made him do it.

 

 

[Boffin]

 

BTW....Did I see a Christmas Tree in the house of an atheist.

 

hmmmmmmmmmmmm????

 

Why not? The evergreen tree is a symbol of fertility and forms a central part of midwinter celebrations that pre-date Christianity by millennia - the same applies to holly, ivy, the red of the blood and the green of the new fertility - all of the symbols associated with Christmas, with the exception of the crib, pre-date the Christian festival.

 

Andy

 

 

That all sounds good, but I know Janet made him do it.

 

 

 

 

[Bob Palin]

 

As usual your ain't even close to the answer to your own question.

 

Internet.... Vinton G. Cerf at Stanford University, Donald Davies (NPL), Paul Baran (RAND Corporation), and Leonard Kleinrock at MIT and at UCLA

 

or if ya wanna really go to the begining...James Clerk Maxwell, Heinrich Rudolf Hertz and Guglielmo Marconi.

 

 

 

GPS.... Ivan_A._Getting ... or if ya wanna go to the true father of Global Positioning... Galileo

 

..not to mention without Gates and Jobs we would not have ever met and you would still be in the dark on so many subjects.

 

BS, none of those people developed anything as an individual, they were part of, and/or leaders of, a group of people within large non-commercial organizations. On their own they couldn't have done anything. You might as well say that everything ever done was by an individual since no two brains have been fused into one skull as far as I know. You are just perverting my arguments, I'm not saying that brilliant people are not needed, just that they work better as a part of a team (like Gates & Jobs, Hewlett & Packard, Varian Brothers, deWolf and d'Arbiloff at Teradyne, etc etc etc)

[Ken H.]

Wrong, all our advances have come from individuals doing what they believed, often against the collective.

Oh common, the individual can’t do anything individually!

 

The best and brightest individuals are good at getting others involved with making whatever they want to happen happen, but at that moment the success is no longer an individual one, it is a group, a collective, success. The individual may (inappropriately) take, or get all the credit, but in reality it isn’t true.

 

As a matter of fact a key component of what makes them great to start with is their recognition of the need to surround themselves with other great people.

 

Name one person recognized as ‘great’ that got there without a legion of support (at the very least) people.

 

BS....Do you know what a LEADER is???

 

Our country is all about being an individual.

 

We have lost that.....it is time to get back to looking in the mirror, for the answers.

 

The greatest innovations/inventions of all time were invented by individuals not groups.

 

Don't make me name em. We don't have enough bandwidth.

The original idea/concept might have come from an individual, but its fruition, its success had to be a communal effort. The resources to execute an idea, no matter what it is, come from a preponderance of group efforts. The only thing the individual can do individually is sit and think about it.

 

Even your successful business (I don’t recall what it is) requires the effort of all the others that provide things like materials, buildings, advertizing, distribution, electricity, running water, heat, vehicles, and the list goes on and on…

 

 

Oh, and a Leader is not a leader unless (s)he is leading someone. So even THAT is a group effort of at least two.

 

Name one thing (besides body functions (at least for awhile)) a solitary individual can accomplish on his/her own. (Not much bandwidth needed to name one!)

 

[Whip]

BS, none of those people developed anything as an individual, they were part of, and/or leaders of, a group of people within large non-commercial organizations. On their own they couldn't have done anything. You might as well say that everything ever done was by an individual since no two brains have been fused into one skull as far as I know. You are just perverting my arguments, I'm not saying that brilliant people are not needed, just that they work better as a part of a team (like Gates & Jobs, Hewlett & Packard, Varian Brothers, deWolf and d'Arbiloff at Teradyne, etc etc etc)

 

Henry Ford didn't work on the assembly line...is that your argument?

 

 

I am the one that made the statement regarding individuals, why do you get to decide the premise of the argument. I do not accept you collective argument. Without these men it don't happen, that is my point.

 

Without leaders/individuals there is no innovation. The collective does not lead it self, it must be directed and focused on a goal. That is done by individuals/leaders. We need more of these ladies and gents. And they need to be rewarded, not castigated.

 

That is what made our country great!

 

[Ken H.]

[

Internet.... Vinton G. Cerf at Stanford University, Donald Davies (NPL), Paul Baran (RAND Corporation), and Leonard Kleinrock at MIT and at UCLA

You don’t seriously think one person constructed the mechanism that’s allowing you and me to carry on this conversation right now???

 

And the irony that you list four people to prop up your argument that it was an individual is poetic! An ‘individual of four' I guess!

 

GPS.... Ivan_A._Getting ... or if ya wanna go to the true father of Global Positioning... Galileo

Or think that one person wrote all the source code for today’s GPS navigation system do you???

 

 

[Ken H.]

Fixed it for ya -

 

Without leaders/individuals there is no innovation. Without the collective there is no realization.

 

It’s a symbiotic relationship that, without both; neither can succeed.

[Bob Palin]

Name one thing (besides body functions (at least for awhile)) a solitary individual can accomplish on his/her own. (Not much bandwidth needed to name one!)

Ken, I basically agree with you but I'm willing to accept an individual that while using the comforts and conveniences of society managed on his own to invent, develop and implement a major advance. They may exist, but are certainly a rarity and I can't think of one off hand.

 

Outside of society maybe the first 'guy' to pick up a branch and beat in the next guy's head to get his food was an individual contributor. Of course he probably wasn't a Homo Sapien.

[Whip]

[

Internet.... Vinton G. Cerf at Stanford University, Donald Davies (NPL), Paul Baran (RAND Corporation), and Leonard Kleinrock at MIT and at UCLA

You don’t seriously think one person constructed the mechanism that’s allowing you and me to carry on this conversation right now???

 

And the irony that you list four people to prop up your argument that it was an individual is poetic! An ‘individual of four' I guess!

 

GPS.... Ivan_A._Getting ... or if ya wanna go to the true father of Global Positioning... Galileo

Or think that one person wrote all the source code for today’s GPS navigation system do you???

 

 

 

Ken...as I said above.

 

Henry Ford didn't work on the assembly line either.

 

Patton never fired a shot.

 

 

 

Your collective argument is the problem not the solution to our country going forward.

 

We need more leaders willing to take risks.

 

 

The collective won't do that.....individuals will.

 

 

Too many companies have committees and consultants and not enough folks willing to lead and take the arrows. That is the problem.

 

 

We have lost all our generals....CYA is more important than

Get ur Done.

 

 

 

 

 

[Whip]

Fixed it for ya -

 

Without leaders/individuals there is no innovation. Without the collective there is no realization.

 

It’s a symbiotic relationship that, without both; neither can succeed.

 

 

The difference is there are only a few that can lead and the members of the collective can be infinite.

[Bob Palin]

I am the one that made the statement regarding individuals, why do you get to decide the premise of the argument. I do not accept you collective argument. Without these men it don't happen, that is my point.

Your statement was in reply to my contention that we would acheive more cooperating with each other.

[Bob Palin]

Nobody denies that leaders are needed, that would be absurd. But leaders are not individuals, they are part of a team.

[Whip]

Name one thing (besides body functions (at least for awhile)) a solitary individual can accomplish on his/her own. (Not much bandwidth needed to name one!)

Ken, I basically agree with you but I'm willing to accept an individual that while using the comforts and conveniences of society managed on his own to invent, develop and implement a major advance. They may exist, but are certainly a rarity and I can't think of one off hand.

 

Outside of society maybe the first 'guy' to pick up a branch and beat in the next guy's head to get his food was an individual contributor. Of course he probably wasn't a Homo Sapien.

 

 

New age gobbledegook or BS.

 

I will leave it to the individuals on this wonderful board to decide.

 

I am arguing with a Conservative Socialist....how can I win?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Whip]

I am the one that made the statement regarding individuals, why do you get to decide the premise of the argument. I do not accept you collective argument. Without these men it don't happen, that is my point.

Your statement was in reply to my contention that we would acheive more cooperating with each other.

 

Cooperating with each other for mutual benefit is not the same as the collective argument, sorry if it came out that way.

 

[Whip]

Nobody denies that leaders are needed, that would be absurd. But leaders are not individuals, they are part of a team.

 

 

"leaders are not idividuals" = the downfall of America.

 

Checkmate.

 

Bingo.

 

GOOOOOOALLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!

 

..I yield my remaining time to a Senator form the other 56 states.

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Tim: I agree with all of that.

 

I still think that everyone needs to have their performance evaluated and their compensation/promotion/still having a job needs to be based on that evaluation.

 

If the evaluation criteria are bogus, you need different criteria.

 

This stuff happens in Business all the time. At my last job, one of my evaluation criteria was how many problem tickets I completed compared to my "peers" and also how well I did at meeting certain arbitrary time goals for each ticket.

 

The problem was that I didn't operate like most of my peers. I didn't take the day to day problem tickets that came in...I mostly dealt with more high-level stuff, so I would have a few tickets that would be really big things that took a long time to complete. So...my numbers made it look like I wasn't pulling my weight and was taking forever to do everything.

 

That is a perfect example of using the wrong evaluation criteria.

 

It doesn't mean that evaluating performance doesn't work...it just means that you have to be careful about how you do it and you have to tailor your evaluation criteria to the specific job.

[UA342]

I'd like to have a crystal ball and look ahead about 10 years. I doubt we will have changed much. We'll still have a massive debt and a dificit to match. My question is Europe. Greece and Ireland have already been backstopped. I'm curious to see how deep it will go and how the Euro will handle it. It's a small world and it will directly effect us.

IMHO the whole title of Superpower has become a sucker's bet. We get to believe we're numero uno but it comes with a price. Our defense budget is out of control and we are the default world cop. We can't afford it.

[Bud]

I'm reading and re-reading these posts trying to get my head around the individual/group discussion. It seems to me that they are two sides of the same coin.

 

There is no denying what can be accomplished by one individual with a vision. I've seen it happen over and over again.

 

Leadership doesn't mean you have to do it all by yourself. In fact, good leaders share their vision with others so the vision can mature to reality.

 

The real question is like this: Would there have been a Microsoft without Bill Gates? One of thousands of examples.

 

Merry White Christmas from snowy Southern Illinois to all of my friends here.

 

[Matts_12GS]

Nobody denies that leaders are needed, that would be absurd. But leaders are not individuals, they are part of a team.

 

Reminds me of the Will Rogers quote that "a camel is horse designed by committee"

 

I agree with Larry that leadership is the key element, not collectivism. I'll cede the point that unless someone is willing to go with the leader, there's not much going to happen. Who knows, had he been a better persuader, maybe Sisyphus might have gotten that rock up the hill.

 

Bud, I think you are close to the answer if not on it completely. Exactly what I'd expect of someone in Saluki country!

 

Merry Christmas to you as well

[Ken H.]

Bob, how do we argue with, convince a person(s) who (apparently) truly think they don’t need anybody else? It’s both symptomatic of, and the cause of, a failing society.

 

“Every man for himself!” is today’s mantra in the USA.

 

Idontknow, I think it’s a hopeless cause.

[Ken H.]

Looking at the USA from the outside in, it appears that this thread sums up entirely what the issue appears to be as it presents to those viewing from the sidelines.

 

Namely, there appears to be two idealogical camps who cannot or will not admit that anything of what the opposing side plans is of any merit whatsoever. The result is gridlock and generally no compromise positions at all, just more of the same largely.

 

What comes out of this is in essence this thread: reams of bickering and ideas tossed about, but nobody actually doing anything.

I think that’s pretty accurate. And frankly it was a big part of our deciding to move from the USA to Canada. At least here there is still some spirit of working together to a common good.

[Ken H.]

There is no denying what can be accomplished by one individual with a vision. I've seen it happen over and over again.

Yes, but can that individual with a vision accomplish the vision alone? Larry will argue yes, Bob and I say no.

 

Leadership doesn't mean you have to do it all by yourself. In fact, good leaders share their vision with others so the vision can mature to reality.

Leadership means you can’t do it all by yourself. Leading others, others = not alone, is the very definition of leadership.

 

The real question is like this: Would there have been a Microsoft without Bill Gates?

Nope. But nor would there have been a Microsoft without the collective efforts of the 1000s and 1000s of other members of Microsoft.

 

As I said earlier it is symbiotic. Leaders require followers, followers require leaders. Neither is more important than the other. Without both; neither can succeed.

 

Merry White Christmas from snowy Southern Illinois to all of my friends here.

You too!

 

[Dave McReynolds]

If the evaluation criteria are bogus, you need different criteria.

 

Or, you need to re-evaluate the evaluation process.

 

We turn to an evaluation process in schools and businesses because we feel that allowing principals and supervisors to make personal decisions about the performance of teachers or subordinates introduces personal bias and favoritism into the process, and that basing performance on standardized tests or some other objective process is more fair. Underlying this is the assumption that an objective process will necessarily improve the performance of the organization in accomplishing its mission.

 

However, this is not necessarily the case. Some of the most successful organizations, including educational organizations, in history were run by individuals making performance, retention, and promotion decisions based on their own personal observations and biases. An objective system is not necessarily an improvement on that system. No doubt anyone who has ever been fired arbitrarily or passed over for promotion in favor of the boss's crony would argue with that, and while those are examples of unfairness, they are not necessarily examples of organization inefficiency or ineffectiveness.

[John Ranalletta]

Nobody denies that leaders are needed, that would be absurd. But leaders are not individuals, they are part of a team.

Colin Powell and George Patton were both generals. One led by command; the other more collaboratively. Both worked well because the situations in which they found themselves required their particular, individual styles. Trying to define an umbrella leadership style that is universally successful is fruitless. Patton needed to slap cowards and Powell needed to build coalitions.

[Bud]

The real question is like this: Would there have been a Microsoft without Bill Gates?

Nope. But nor would there have been a Microsoft without the collective efforts of the 1000s and 1000s of other members of Microsoft.

 

 

In every case, the leader has to come first. With no vision, there is nothing to follow or work towards. And perhaps that is the crux of Whip's argument?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ford realize he had to pay decent wages so his workers would be able to afford the very product they are making?

 

Of course, the most efficient form of government is a benevolent dictatorship. Don't need to get others to agree but you have the best interest of those under you at heart.

 

 

[tallman]

Russell and Dave,

Yes, eval is often needed.

But, how well you "educate" someone is beyond immediate analysis in most cases, IMO.

I'm not talking about hooking up 4 plug wires so it fires correctly or recalling dates.

Education is a scaffolding process, yes I can "teach" you 2x = 6 and test to see if you answer x = 3.

However, many areas of study don't lend themself to that type of evluation.

To then use evaluation to hire/fire introduces the potential for bias or cheating.

Since we are still learning about how the brain works, how we learn and retain information, the effect of nature and nurture, etc. I feel that in the area of education it will always be a difficult thing to fairly evaluate the contribution made by a specific teacher.

Perhaps this is "on topic" as I see this movement (evaluate the teacher by administering standardized tests to students {and don't even go down the road of fairness wrt standardized tests and gender, socio-economic opportunity, etc.} as a part of our overall decline.

The teachers who taught the "Greatest Generation" had fewer high school graduates, fewer resources to work with, no subsidized federal programs for meals, and yet somehow managed to "educate" those students who became the entrepreneurs and leaders for the period where America was in ascension.

Those teachers would be failures by today's evaluation methodology due to the low rate of high school graduation and the low percentage of students going on to college.

If Jobs/Gates/Ford/et al were students today I wonder how they would fare in a classroom...

[Pilgrim]

The only true definition of defeat is when you stop trying.

 

That's easy to say when you're working for someone else and don't have your own ass on the proverbial line, meeting payroll, paying suppliers, making big market decisions, etc.

 

 

+1. It's easy for someone to make inane statements like that when the most serious personal financial decisions he ever made was whether to round off to the nearest buck in his checkbook balance.

 

Money prefers not to gamble, or when necessary, to deal with a predictable set of risks. The current climate makes a reasonable estimation of risks an impossibility. That's why I keep all my money tied up in debt; that way, somebody else has to worry about it.

 

Pilgrim