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The decline of America


Bud

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James, my friend, quit thinking so myopically!

 

The fact is that some material things will always be needed, even if it's only the buses and trains used for public transit. James' issue (and mine, and a lot of people) is that if the material things we use in this country are made in other countries, then jobs and wealth continually get exported. I don't think we're specifically interested in having more material things made, but of the material things that get made, it would be beneficial to the US if more of them were made domestically.

 

Yes, thank you, Mitch! I am not about "success", you won't find that word in anything I have typed in this thread. Nor will you find a desire for material wealth -- beyond that which is necessary to educate one's family and maintain proper health. Yes, the issue is about ensuring our ability to put bread on our collective tables. Who cares about the new-fangled education system if we cannot afford to implement it?! All these programs and dreams and inventions and paradigms cost money. It costs money to implement and it costs money to benefit from it. No money? No education. No health. No food, shelter, or clothing. And if you think it hasn't come to this in the USA, then go and visit my home town of Detroit, MI. Who says more and more of our country isn't headed to the same fate as that which has overtaken Detroit, MI to the point where that becomes our country?

 

I have never been wealthy -- certainly not by this boards standards :smirk: And I am not at all opposed to seeing formerly impoverished countries rise from the ashes. I think it's a great thing that there are fewer children going to bed hungry at night in India and China. May their prosperity be long lasting and real. But I am concered that their miraculous growth is coming at the expense of our country's ability to put bread on it's collective table. For the common people among us, this is the issue of the day!

 

In short: I'm all for what you propose, Ken. But it still costs money to live, to learn, and to grow. Nothings free, and it probably never will be. I would bet that both India and China have incredibly marvelous ideas as to what it means to live a fulfilled life. I would bet that as much as we in the West have pushed the envelope of technology, they could push the envelope of a rich life, yet they still pursue material wealth, don't they? Because life ain't free, never has been and it never will be.

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Steve, no one is going to disagree with what you are saying, but the very desire to take care of our families is what fuels the unhappiness with what we see taking place in our country today.

 

I want my children to get a great education, but that's going to be difficult to see given the rise of college tuitions and the simultaneous decrease in salaries and wages. I want my family to have good health care, but again, that's made more and more difficult with the constant rise in costs. I want my children to get involved with school activities and community sports programs, but when budget cuts eliminate these programs there isn't a whole lot you can do to replace the opportunities while they are still young enough to participate in them. I would like to take my family on trips around the country and the world, but when massive layoffs hit the job and all manner of opportunities are offshored to other countries it makes spending any money beyond that which is absolutly necessary difficult to justify.

 

In short, being a great person is critical regardless of the nature of the society you live in, but that is not going to replace the benefits of opportunity, jobs, and eduation. Nor is it going to make up for a country that is falling apart because of massive unemployment, unfunded social costs (welfare, unemployment, health care, etc), and a war on 2 fronts. And that's what we're talking about here. You must have a healthy business community that creates opporunity and wealth for the society they reside in. Our healthy business community creates opportunity and wealth for Asian country's as much as it does for our own here in the west -- maybe even more so. And on top of this, people are now thinking that the sun has set on the West, which to me it clearly has not, and that Asian country's are somehow superior to my own, which I strongly dispute.

 

OK, what am I missing here? :confused:

 

James, what you are missing is that none of that stuff you quoted above really matters in the grand scheme of things. Our country began with not a lot of any of those things, yet they were created nonetheless. Understanding how they got there in the first place is the crucial lesson we all need to work on.

 

Look, I fully understand your frustrations with a lot of what is happening in our country today. Believe me, I get it. But, of all of the things you listed, how many are within your control to change? Probably not much. Is it a good expenditure of time to worry about things that we can't change? Or, is our time better spent working on things within our grasp? Maybe your kids can't get a world-class education from our education system, but they can get that world-class education from you. And, more importantly, they can learn the traits and characteristics which you have learned over a lifetime.

 

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Oh no, Steve. I learned from when I was a kid that if I just whine loudly enough I will eventually get my way :Cool:

 

Ok, good point. I am going to really think about this. Maybe this is what Ken has been trying to say all this time as well.

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Actually, I think that the Zero was a Persian/Arabian invention (Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Khwarizmi was born in Afghanistan and worked in northern Iran when he wrote about the use of a "sifr" to hold the place and keep the rows straight).

I was pretty sure zero came from India, because in Arabic, what we call "Arabic numerals" are called "Indian numerals."

 

The rules governing the use of zero appeared for the first time in Brahmagupta's book Brahmasputha Siddhanta (The Opening of the Universe), written in 628 AD. Here Brahmagupta considers not only zero, but negative numbers, and the algebraic rules for the elementary operations of arithmetic with such numbers.

The fact is, almost ALL inventors are standing on the shoulders of others, giants, even. The ability to carry knowledge forward via writing systems was one of the great human cultural advances, and I feel pretty comfortable in saying that there cannot be a civilization of any significance without written records.

 

Due to economic, scientific, and technological revolutions from the renaissance onward, Western European civilizations (in which I include the USA) leapfrogged ahead of existing cultures in other parts of the world, with colonial systems ensuring that things stayed that way. Countries like China and India are now catching up, and can be expected to make some significant new contributions to the knowledge store of mankind. Many of these countries are going through developmental surges right now, and while I doubt that they can continue to grow indefinitely at the rates of the past decade, at the present time, economically they are moving forward, relative to where they were, at a much faster pace than the "West," which is moving forward from a much higher starting point.

 

Unless you believe that the earth's resources are infinite, this leads to a situation where, as the relative economies of western and emerging countries converge, this is to some degree at the expense of the western countries.

 

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James' issue (and mine, and a lot of people) is that if the material things we use in this country are made in other countries, then jobs and wealth continually get exported.

...but of the material things that get made, it would be beneficial to the US if more of them were made domestically.

 

Aren't we the consumer ultimately in control where the things are made that we use?

If everyone from individuals to municipalities decided to mostly buy goods that are Made in U.S.A wouldn't that do it?

 

Apple, Walmart, GE, GAP, Home Depot, Everyone sells to us the stuff that makes those companies most profitable.

If Made in China stuff ends up sitting on the shelves while Made in U.S.A stuff can be sold a good premium, they will make and sell us the latter.

It's our choice.

 

I know, I know. It's actually getting pretty hard to find some items that are made here, but that's not an excuse not to try, and do chose the domestically produced one when ever possible.

 

I have actually always (since I moved here) been little surprised how little Americans in general value the Made in U.S.A aspect.

People TALK a lot about it but in reality it's way way down the priority list when it's time to spend the money.

I really do believe we are getting what bargained for.

 

--

Mikko

 

 

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Dave McReynolds

The biggest problem we face in this country is that there are a significant number of our people who have the potential to be useful and productive manual laborers, but who do not have the mental capabilities to compete for jobs requiring a high level of intellectual skills, for whom jobs are not available.

 

We have created this problem ourselves. We consume enough food and material goods that if the production of these items were done by US citizens, there would be no significant unemployment. Production of these items is done by non-citizens, either inside or outside of the United States, because we allow that condition to happen.

 

If, as Steve says, we have a loss of confidence or faith as a nation, I believe it is because people generally believe that we don't have competent leadership. For the leaders of any country, any time in history, to ignore the fact that the bulk of their population needs to be gainfully employed doing manual labor seems incredible on the face of it, but that is what we seem to have done. There are certainly places in the world where opportunities just don't exist for people to be gainfully employed, but that is not the case in the USA. We choose to have our crops harvested by migrant workers from other countries, and we choose to have our goods produced by workers in other countries.

 

Does anyone really believe that if there were no migrant workers to harvest our crops or goods available to be imported from other countries, that the crops would go unharvested in the fields or that we would not find ways to produce the items we need locally? You might not like the price you would have to pay for food, or be happy with the selection of other items available, but nobody would go hungry for lack of food, and nobody would go naked for lack of clothing.

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One of the big disconnects I am noticing in this thread is that many of the people on this forum claim to be free marketers, yet seem to be arguing against a free market on trade. Given two comparable products, the market says that, all other things being equal, people will buy the cheaper one. While there is certainly a lot of Chinese junk out there, they are also making some very high quality products (almost all of the world's computers, if you include Taiwan).

 

In some areas, we can compete, even dominate, by working smarter, but in others, the difference in labor input costs are so huge that buying domestic makes no sense. Imbalances of this sort are not permanent; this is going to continue to be the case until currencies adjust, and/or Chinese wages rise to a level where domestic production is again competitive. I'm not saying we should give up, just that we need to choose our battles, and compete in areas where it makes sense to do so -- with the awareness that this is an ever-shifting battleground.

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I'm not sure that faith might not be more of a symptom that things are going right rather than a cause. To follow your airplane example, ... Faith could be lost in a hurry if he took off his shoe and began banging on the instrument panel with it.

 

Or, referencing someone else's convictions here about appropriate dress, if the pilot were wearing cargo shorts, a Hooters T-shirt, and flip-flops. :rofl:

 

Pilgrim

 

 

 

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James' issue (and mine, and a lot of people) is that if the material things we use in this country are made in other countries, then jobs and wealth continually get exported. I don't think we're specifically interested in having more material things made, but of the material things that get made, it would be beneficial to the US if more of them were made domestically.

While I might agree with that philosophically on some short-sighted level, I think it’s a pipe dream.

 

Since man first put a rock on the end of a stick; someone else took the idea, made it better, and undoubtedly cheaper. "Hey Igor, what to trade this rock on a stick for 10 berries?" said Grog. "I’ll trade you mine (which I just made by looking at Igor’s) for 8 berries!" said Kroff.

 

True then, true today.

 

Indeed, exactly that is the vehicle by which man’s progress as a species has flourished. The spreading of and improvement on ideas. (Improvement including cheaper.) It's useless and a silly waste of resources, on all scales/levels, to try and fight it. The USA is never going to reverse what has been a characteristic (literally) of human evolution. Energy would be better spent on coming up with the next rock on a stick idea.

 

But hey, if the USA wants to go down the path of protectionism, the fact that I think it’s a folly is of course irrelevant. Have at it. Let us know how that works out for you!

 

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Who cares about the new-fangled education system if we cannot afford to implement it?!

You can't afford to implement it because you don't care about it. Or more accuratly, you can't afford not to implement it!

 

But the bottom line is the USA has backed itself into a corner that no one has an actual path out for. At least none beyond rhetoric. It’s the Kobiashi Maro. (sp?)

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Since man first put a rock on the end of a stick; someone else took the idea, made it better, and undoubtedly cheaper. "Hey Igor, what to trade this rock on a stick for 10 berries?" said Grog. "I’ll trade you mine (which I just made by looking at Igor’s) for 8 berries!" said Kroff.

 

True then, true today.

 

Indeed, exactly that is the vehicle by which man’s progress as a species has flourished. The spreading of and improvement on ideas. (Improvement including cheaper.) It's useless and a silly waste of resources, on all scales/levels, to try and fight it. The USA is never going to reverse what has been a characteristic (literally) of human evolution.

 

OK, I'm with you so far...

 

Energy would be better spent on coming up with the next rock on a stick idea.

 

Here's where I lose you. What possible good can come from inventing a new "rock on a stick" idea if the production of that new idea is yet again -- sent overseas? The net effect on the local economy is 0 -- to borrow an Indian concept :smirk: and so is the net effect of that innovation.

 

Can you see why I focus on the production issue? Yes? No?

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Maybe this is what Ken has been trying to say all this time as well.

That’s exactly what I’m trying to say.

 

Out of crisis comes opportunity. In this crisis the USA (and most of the Western world) has a historical opportunity to re-exam itself. Take a critical look at what it will mean in the future to be great. For most of the 19th and 20th century “great” meant great at creating material things. While the rest of the world, in particular 3rd world countries are off duplicating that, our opportunity is to say, "Been there, done that." 'Now then, what can we come up with to be great at in the next two centuries?'

 

Do I think it will happen in this, a country/society that the whole concept of the importance of having material things, is so ingrained? Well if I was a bookie...

 

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Unless we can figure out a way to sustain ourselves without the production of goods in this society, we're going to have to "turn back the clock" so to speak. I see no alternative, unless we are flat out ready to live in a nation that looks like Detroit, MI.

 

What I suggest is that we evaluate our "national labor environments" -- the laws, the regulations, the benefits, the taxes, and all the issues that discourage business from setting up shop here.

 

I also wonder if the dreaded deflation issue is what will ultimately save us. We are living in a globally overpriced society in that everything we have and do costs more here than anywhere else, thus our compensation must be comparable to our cost of living. If that cost of living were to fall, so to would wages and other costs, and maybe then we'll be in a position to finally compete on a global level.

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Dave McReynolds

Out of crisis comes opportunity. In this crisis the USA (and most of the Western world) has a historical opportunity to re-exam itself. Take a critical look at what it will mean in the future to be great. For most of the 19th and 20th century “great” meant great at creating material things. While the rest of the world, in particular 3rd world countries are off duplicating that, our opportunity is to say, "Been there, done that." 'Now then, what can we come up with to be great at in the next two centuries?'

 

 

Ken, how, exactly, do you propose to employ the bulk of the population who are best suited to working with their hands, which I'm sure will continue to be the case during the next century, and on after that until basic human nature changes?

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OK, Ken, you seem to envision a "post tech" or "post commercial" society -- if I can put a term on what you describe. I think this is the idea in the "Star Trek" series; humans have learned to build societies that no longer rely on the age old manner of commercial and material life.

 

I do like the idea of one closed door means another open one somewhere else if you're willing to look for it. This is also the idea behind the book, "Who Moved my Cheese", a very good and quick read.

 

OK, then how about we toss around what that new vision might look like for our societies -- and how we will sustain ourselves on this planet of limited and expensive resources (heat, food, clothes, iPods :smirk:, and cable TV).

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What I suggest is that we evaluate our "national labor environments" -- the laws, the regulations, the benefits, the taxes, and all the issues that discourage business from setting up shop here.

 

Business setup a shop where ever it's most profitable for them to do so.

If we pay more for stuff that's made in shop we like, that's where the shop stays. That's how free markets work, right?

 

If we truly value our own and our fellow citizens well-being, let's put our money where our mouth is. It would certainly mean we'd have to get used to having bit less toys. But is that a bad thing?

 

Protectionism or racing the poorest countries of the world to bottom doesn't work. Never has, never will.

 

--

Mikko

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I also wonder if the dreaded deflation issue is what will ultimately save us. We are living in a globally overpriced society in that everything we have and do costs more here than anywhere else, thus our compensation must be comparable to our cost of living. If that cost of living were to fall, so to would wages and other costs, and maybe then we'll be in a position to finally compete on a global level.

The foreign tourists who descend on New York City to snap up the bargains might beg to differ you about overpriced. Nobody voluntarily embraces a decline in wages/cost of living; it's generally forced on people by forces outside their control -- as happened in the USA 1930-1940, and may happen in the future.

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Business[es] setup a shop where ever it's most profitable for them to do so. If we pay more for stuff that's made in shop we like, that's where the shop stays. That's how free markets work, right?

 

If we truly value our own and our fellow citizens well-being, let's put our money where our mouth is. It would certainly mean we'd have to get used to having bit less toys. But is that a bad thing?

 

Protectionism or racing the poorest countries of the world to bottom doesn't work. Never has, never will.

 

--

Mikko

Precisely on target. :thumbsup:

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Dave McReynolds

In agrarian societies, and hunter-gatherer societies, the need for manual labor and the availability of manual labor was more or less in balance. Ever since the industrial revolution, and increasing with time, there has been an excess capacity of manual labor for the amount of manual labor that needs to be done. Human capabilities don't change that fast, however, and there is still probably about the same mix of people best suited for manual labor as has been the case for thousands of years.

 

Given the negative effects on society of having idle people, it may be that in the future, society may consider it to be a more valuable use of its resources to keep its population employed doing manual labor rather than using its resources to consume items produced by others.

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There is value to new ideas even if they are manufactured overseas, there is the purchase price of the idea and/or the royalties from its manufacture. That money is available to go back into the local economy and should be targeted by US companies. Vacations, travel services and recreational activities come to mind, all need a working class to support them. Probably not enough to support the current economic deck of cards but I hope some companies out there are focusing on fleecing the rich :grin:

 

I also agree with the Finn that we need to think about where our stuff is made and sometimes sacrifice price (but NEVER quality) to buy local. I just bought a pair of Pointer Brand jeans which are made in the US, rather than my usual Asian made brands. Haven't got them yet, I'll let you know how they are. There are many Buy Local campaigns in place, we are even setting up one right here in Wayne County, Utah.

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For the record, this has been a fantastic conversation. I am throughly benefiting from this thread. Thanks all!

 

I'm not done yet, I still have more questions AND I think it is well worth exploring the issues raised by Steve, Ken, and Mikko.

 

I am very concerned for my children; what are they going to do to earn a living in the coming decades? That is the question I wrestle with every day.

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russell_bynum

I'm not sure that faith might not be more of a symptom that things are going right rather than a cause. To follow your airplane example, ... Faith could be lost in a hurry if he took off his shoe and began banging on the instrument panel with it.

 

Or, referencing someone else's convictions here about appropriate dress, if the pilot were wearing cargo shorts, a Hooters T-shirt, and flip-flops. :rofl:

 

Pilgrim

 

 

 

I'd be OK with all of that except the Flip-Flops...since flip flops and rudder pedals aren't a good mix.

 

these guys were wearing standard well-dressed pilot garb. So were These guys.

 

Their neckties didn't seem to help them with their unprofessional behavior. :smirk:

 

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russell_bynum

I also agree with the Finn that we need to think about where our stuff is made and sometimes sacrifice price (but NEVER quality) to buy local. I just bought a pair of Pointer Brand jeans which are made in the US, rather than my usual Asian made brands. Haven't got them yet, I'll let you know how they are. There are many Buy Local campaigns in place, we are even setting up one right here in Wayne County, Utah.

 

That's an easy thing for affluent people like us to do.

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All you can do is love and educate them :thumbsup:.

What they do with that and what happens next is, in most respects, up to them and beyond your (and their!) control :thumbsup:

 

Life is merely timing.....

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I also agree with the Finn that we need to think about where our stuff is made and sometimes sacrifice price (but NEVER quality) to buy local. I just bought a pair of Pointer Brand jeans which are made in the US, rather than my usual Asian made brands. Haven't got them yet, I'll let you know how they are. There are many Buy Local campaigns in place, we are even setting up one right here in Wayne County, Utah.

 

That's an easy thing for affluent people like us to do.

It is, and in doing so we trickle down some of our affluence to the working class, and isn't that what some above are saying needs to happen? By buying US made products, made from US made/grown materials, I'm helping both the filthy rich overlords gain their obscene profits which they can trickle down again and the lowly manual worker in the factory. Paypal and the gummint are of course taking their cut as well...
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Ken, how, exactly, do you propose to employ the bulk of the population who are best suited to working with their hands, which I'm sure will continue to be the case during the next century, and on after that until basic human nature changes?

 

Dave, you keep going back to this premise - that people need to be given jobs that they are suited for. We didn't become a great country by giving people jobs they are qualified to do. We became great by expecting more out of them. Throughout our history, if workers were really unable to adapt and grow their skills, we would still be taking our horses to the blacksmith.

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I just bought a pair of Pointer Brand jeans which are made in the US, rather than my usual Asian made brands.

That's an easy thing for affluent people like us to do.

 

Surprise, surprise! I just checked out the Pointer Brand website and their jeans are $35.05 a pair. $33.05 if you buy more than two :)

 

Doesn't take much of affluence to chose the Pointers over Levi's.

 

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I just bought a pair of Pointer Brand jeans which are made in the US, rather than my usual Asian made brands.

That's an easy thing for affluent people like us to do.

 

Surprise, surprise! I just checked out the Pointer Brand website and their jeans are $35.05 a pair. $33.05 if you buy more than two :)

 

Doesn't take much of affluence to chose the Pointers over Levi's.

Nope, and with coupon code 1913 I saved another 10%
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russell_bynum

I just bought a pair of Pointer Brand jeans which are made in the US, rather than my usual Asian made brands.

That's an easy thing for affluent people like us to do.

 

Surprise, surprise! I just checked out the Pointer Brand website and their jeans are $35.05 a pair. $33.05 if you buy more than two :)

 

Doesn't take much of affluence to chose the Pointers over Levi's.

 

Sure. But what about the Costco-branded jeans for $10?

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Business setup a shop where ever it's most profitable for them to do so.

 

Right.

 

If we pay more for stuff that's made in shop we like, that's where the shop stays. That's how free markets work, right?

 

Wrong. That would be welfare for business and would result in the same outcome as our current welfare system. It would simply kill what is left of our free-market system.

 

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Sure. But what about the Costco-branded jeans for $10?
What's your point Russell? I know there are cheaper jeans than the ones I buy, but I've never bought them.
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If we pay more for stuff that's made in shop we like, that's where the shop stays. That's how free markets work, right?

 

Wrong. That would be welfare for business and would result in the same outcome as our current welfare system.

 

If I buy expensive hand-made shoes because I like them, it's welfare?

Buying consumables from my local BMW dealer instead of the cheapest on-line vendor is welfare? And this is bad how?

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russell_bynum
Sure. But what about the Costco-branded jeans for $10?
What's your point Russell? I know there are cheaper jeans than the ones I buy, but I've never bought them.

 

The argument was that if we all just bought US-made stuff at a higher price, then there would be manufacturing jobs here. I agree, but pointed out that this strategy can be hard for people who aren't as well-off as those of us here. Mikko pointed out that the US-made jeans you buy aren't really that much more expensive than non-US-made name brand jeans like Levis. I pointed out that there's much cheaper options that name-brand jeans.

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Dave McReynolds
Ken, how, exactly, do you propose to employ the bulk of the population who are best suited to working with their hands, which I'm sure will continue to be the case during the next century, and on after that until basic human nature changes?

 

Dave, you keep going back to this premise - that people need to be given jobs that they are suited for. We didn't become a great country by giving people jobs they are qualified to do. We became great by expecting more out of them. Throughout our history, if workers were really unable to adapt and grow their skills, we would still be taking our horses to the blacksmith.

 

The reality of the situation in today's world is that there are people competing for jobs at all levels. It is possible that you could train someone who is best suited to working in a factory to be a computer programmer, but I can guarantee you that there will be other people who are better suited to being computer programmers who will get the job, and what you will end up with is another unemployed computer programmer. Which is a shame, when there could be a factory job available for that person which we are giving away to someone in another country instead.

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Foreign Grants and credits 2000 to 2008

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1261.pdf

 

US Foreign Economic & Military Aid 1980 to 2007

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1262.pdf

 

There's more, but these sums would go a long way towards education/health goals if kept at home.

Shttp://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htmhould we?

 

 

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If I buy expensive hand-made shoes because I like them, it's welfare?

Buying consumables from my local BMW dealer instead of the cheapest on-line vendor is welfare? And this is bad how?

 

No, subsidizing a business for the sake of keeping people employeed is welfare. Business is in the business of attracting customers, not the other way around.

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The reality of the situation in today's world is that there are people competing for jobs at all levels. It is possible that you could train someone who is best suited to working in a factory to be a computer programmer, but I can guarantee you that there will be other people who are better suited to being computer programmers who will get the job, and what you will end up with is another unemployed computer programmer. Which is a shame, when there could be a factory job available for that person which we are giving away to someone in another country instead.

 

There are always people competing for jobs at every level. That's the nature of free enterprise.

 

But, again you keep coming back to giving people jobs (or in this case giving away jobs). I don't know if you realize it, but it is not the job of business to give anyone a job. It is the individual's responsiblity to find one for themselves.

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I don't know if you realize it, but it is not the job of business to give anyone a job. It is the individual's responsiblity to find one for themselves.
That may be your philosophy but it's not mine, we are not allowed to discuss this here so I ask you to stop stating philosophical/political views in this thread.
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Joe Frickin' Friday
...we are not allowed to discuss this here so I ask you to stop stating philosophical/political views in this thread.

 

If you can leave politicians, political parties and semi-political adjectives (such as "liberal" and "conservative") out of the discussion, you're welcome to talk philosphy all day long here.

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Here's where I lose you. What possible good can come from inventing a new "rock on a stick" idea if the production of that new idea is yet again -- sent overseas? The net effect on the local economy is 0 -- to borrow an Indian concept :smirk: and so is the net effect of that innovation.

The point is that it will always continue, but, and it's a big “but” if you/we/the USA wants to prosper it/us has to always stay one step ahead. Yes, what ever the next idea is will indeed follow the same path around the globe, as will the one after it, and the one after that. You/we loose the number one spot, top of the chain, when we stop having the new good ideas.

 

The net effect (to the local/county's) economy is never 0 because of the lag. Duplication, improvement, economization takes time. 1000s of years ago it took 1000s of years. Two centuries ago it took a decade, now it takes days, or even in some cases minutes. But none of that changes the basic idea that to get/stay on top you have to always be one step ahead. If the next new great idea for the world only take seconds for someone/somewhere else to better you at, then your ‘window of opportunity’ is only micro-seconds. But it’s still opportunity.

 

But in reality the situation is not that dire. Going back to my earlier example – a wonderful new way that makes it faster and more effective, heck even throw in cheaper way to educate. It would take a fairly significant time for that to propagate through out humanity. And in that is the opportunity to lead, succeed.

 

Can you see why I focus on the production issue? Yes? No?

Oh I can see why you focus on the production issue. I just think it’s a) impossible to fix, that horse has left the gate, and b) it’s short-sighted with respect to ‘restoring America to it’s greatness.” Or even, to use the original subject of this thread, reversing it’s decline.

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Dave McReynolds

I wonder what the cost to our society has been of unemployment and welfare benefits, broken families, drug and alcohol addiction, lost tax revenues, crime, etc., from jobs lost due to outsourcing. I wonder what the future cost to our society will be from the loss of "faith" in our system of those unable to find jobs and their families.

 

Do you suppose if those costs were measured and divvied up among the products we import, they would still be a bargain?

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I am very concerned for my children; what are they going to do to earn a living in the coming decades? That is the question I wrestle with every day.

Let me suggest you frame it in a different way. Instead, “I am very concerned for my children; what life they going to live in the coming decades?”

 

Those are two very different things.

 

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I just bought a pair of Pointer Brand jeans which are made in the US,

 

Best jeans I have ever owned. The carpenter ones are my favs.

 

I hope you like em.

 

 

 

 

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But, again you keep coming back to giving people jobs (or in this case giving away jobs). I don't know if you realize it, but it is not the job of business to give anyone a job. It is the individual's responsiblity to find one for themselves.
I disagree, it is the responsibility of all parts of a society to support the society as a whole. A society can only survive through cooperation, it will not survive if businesses do not fulfil their proper role of creating jobs for the members of the society that supports them.
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But, again you keep coming back to giving people jobs (or in this case giving away jobs). I don't know if you realize it, but it is not the job of business to give anyone a job. It is the individual's responsiblity to find one for themselves.
I disagree, it is the responsibility of all parts of a society to support the society as a whole. A society can only survive through cooperation, it will not survive if businesses do not fulfil their proper role of creating jobs for the members of the society that supports them.

 

That is an amazing statement. I understand how you feel, and I respect it. But in my mind this is exactly what has caused our decline.

 

Sorry my man, I have found the problem and he lives in Torrey.

 

:rofl:

 

 

 

 

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That is an amazing statement. I understand how you feel, and I respect it. But in my mind this is exactly what has caused our decline.
And I think exactly the opposite, and your actions follow my philosophy.
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