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The decline of America


Bud

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My generation, I'm 64, has lived thru one of the most prospers times in America's history. Also during that time we went from the undisputed superpower in the world to something less than. Our economy is currently under great pressure. We have deep divides between the two majority parties. There is anger among the citizens. The great divide between the rich and poor continues to grow. A large percentage of our citizens live at or below the poverty level. Children still go to bed hungry every night. Our infant mortality rate is pretty high for an industrialized country with some of the best medical care in the world. The disintegration of the the nuclear family continues. We have been engaged in the longest war in our history and the results are nebulous. Our national debt is mounting by hundreds of millions of dollars daily. The unemployment rate is very high and shows no signs of coming down very quickly. We continue to import more than export. 1% of our citizens are in jail.

 

Even when presented with a bi-partisan report which plainly states the measures we need to take now to prevent further financial collapse, Congress is unwilling or unable to take action.

 

This might lead one to decide that America is in a state of decline as a nation and will never again be what it was during the last half of the 20th century.

 

 

What say you?

 

 

 

 

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A prolonged growth spurt occurred here. America has promoted Democracy around the world for 60 years, now those maturing democracies and sorta-democracies, and now-capitalist-and-not-so-isolated dictatorships are experiencing that growth, and competing with us on all fronts.

 

Americans work hard, have good education, and will always be a first class, world class society.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I've been kind of waiting for this to show up here, and it will be interesting to see how long this thread goes before crossing the "political" line. I downloaded the initial "Co-Chairs' Proposal" when it became available last month. I thought their recommendations were pretty much on target with their call for shared national sacrifice, but I feared they had a snowball's chance in hell of success. So far, most politicians are not disappointing me.

 

James Fallows wrote an interesting piece earlier this year, "America Can Rise Again," which which was pretty well considered, as Fallows' writing often is. To some degree, "America is going to hell" has been a national theme for a long time. Fallows quotes Cullen Murphy, who published Are We Rome? in 2007:

 

“If you go back and pick any decade in American history, you are guaranteed to find the exact same worries we have now,” he said. “About our commercial capacities, about the education system, about whether immigrants are ruining our stock and not learning English, about what is happening to the ‘real’ values that built the country. Poke a stick into it, and you will get a gushing fount of commentary on the same subjects as now, in the same angry and despairing tone. It’s an amazingly consistent trait.

So no, I don't think the country is going to hell, any more than it ever has, but I am concerned that our government may be broken, and that our representatives lack the courage to take the steps required to put the national budget back together. Lacking such courage, I fear that a crisis (like as the Irish problem) will be required to knock people upside the head with a 2x4 and really get our attention.

 

Twenty-five years ago, Japan was thought to have all the answers, and I remember being lectured to at dinner by a particularly obnoxious Japanese businessman about what was wrong with America. Today, lots of people are looking to the Chinese model for leadership, and I'm willing to go out on a limb and predict that China will endure a major financial/political crisis of its own within the next five years. China is beginning to look a lot like "Japan, Inc." all over again.

 

I think we'll muddle through, and that things will work out, as they usually do.

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Americans work hard, have good education, and will always be a first class, world class society.

I am under the impression we lag well behind other developed countries in regards to education. High schools are drop out and diploma mills, not much to show for 12 years of education. I would reckon education in China, India and Japan far exceed our graduation standards.

Whether we work hard or not depends on the definition of "hard work". Is that manual labor or mental labor? Hard work to me is working with your hands in difficult environments. Farm work is an example or hard work, yet we Americans prefer not to do that kind of work.

I think many countries have a fairly low opinion of America and we will soon fall behind India and China as a first class, world society.

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I think that one of the main problems we have in this country, which is connected to all the other problems we have, is that we are constantly voting for or paying others to take care of out problems. We need to be more actively involved and not give the reins to every knuclehead that comes along and promises to make life better. We need to be more responsible and earn what we have rather than feel entitled to it.

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Americans work hard, have good education, and will always be a first class, world class society.

I am under the impression we lag well behind other developed countries in regards to education. High schools are drop out and diploma mills, not much to show for 12 years of education. I would reckon education in China, India and Japan far exceed our graduation standards.

Whether we work hard or not depends on the definition of "hard work". Is that manual labor or mental labor? Hard work to me is working with your hands in difficult environments. Farm work is an example or hard work, yet we Americans prefer not to do that kind of work.

I think many countries have a fairly low opinion of America and we will soon fall behind India and China as a first class, world society.

 

WRT education, comparing apples to apples isn't possible vis a vis Europe/Asia and the US.

They don't educate everyone. They have longer school year so a "high School" graduate in Europe has had an education comparable to a community college graduate.

I could go on and on wrt where we spend our education $$$ but don't want to sidetrack this thread.

Suffice it to say we still have plenty of bright students despite the obstacles we create.

If we could follow the model of some other countries, our kids would come out on top in every measure.

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I think that one of the main problems we have in this country, which is connected to all the other problems we have, is that we are constantly voting for or paying others to take care of out problems. We need to be more actively involved and not give the reins to every knuclehead that comes along and promises to make life better. We need to be more responsible and earn what we have rather than feel entitled to it.

 

+1 :thumbsup:

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John Ranalletta

They're getting pretty close to you. Maybe they're fans of Jackalopes and miniature Alamos. It could a chance for you to shorten your supply chain. :grin:

 

China’s state-owned oil company, CNOOC (CEO) has agreed to invest as much as $2.16 billion in Chesapeake Energy’s (CHK) Eagle Ford Shale oil and gas project in Texas.

 

CHRON-China-oil-650.jpg

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Does anyone know where I can get a book on how to speak Chinese?

When I was in high school, there was a saying that optimists studied Russian, while pessimists studied Chinese.

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My generation, I'm 64, has lived thru one of the most prospers times in America's history. Also during that time we went from the undisputed superpower in the world to something less than. Our economy is currently under great pressure. We have deep divides between the two majority parties. There is anger among the citizens. The great divide between the rich and poor continues to grow. A large percentage of our citizens live at or below the poverty level. Children still go to bed hungry every night. Our infant mortality rate is pretty high for an industrialized country with some of the best medical care in the world. The disintegration of the the nuclear family continues. We have been engaged in the longest war in our history and the results are nebulous. Our national debt is mounting by hundreds of millions of dollars daily. The unemployment rate is very high and shows no signs of coming down very quickly. We continue to import more than export. 1% of our citizens are in jail.

 

We're the undisputed military superpower. People from most other countries flock here or send their money for the investment opportunities and to go to school. The two major political parties have always hated each other, but US Senators have largely stopped beating each other on the floor of the Senate. Citizens have always been angry, to the point where they revolted against the British and started a war between the North and the South. There is a social safety net to keep people below the poverty line from living lives of abject poverty - so much so that many people complain that people on welfare have it too good. Fewer children go to bed hungry at night because of school lunch and WIC programs. The infant mortality is still too high but has dropped over the last 50 years. The "nuclear familty" is a myth, people have always lived in extended and complicated family groups. The unemployment rate is lower than it was during the Great Depression. We import more than we export because we have disposable income to buy stuff. Incarceration rates have skyrocketed because we want to have a War on Drugs; crime rates have dropped since the 1990s. The bi-partisan report is not as cut-and-dry good as conventional wisdom makes it out to be and, according to at least one Nobel-prize-winning economist, is full of really bad ideas

 

We're having difficult times, but every generation thinks that the world is going to hell in a handbasket. And that their kids' music is too loud and their clothes are weird.

 

There are those, of course, who want you to believe that America is a state of decline as a nation, and if only you drink their magic potion, everything will be all right again and we can get our old country back. The one we had in 1946, or 1928, or 1909, or 1880, or 1824, depending on how much progress you want to give up. Saying "y'know, things are kinda bad, but not all that bad" doesn't sell newspapers or get votes, however.

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Dave McReynolds

For a long time, we got used to each generation being a little better off than the preceeding generation. This perhaps reached its zenith in the 50's, when it wasn't that difficult for a middle-class family to support itself quite well with one wage earner, two cars in every garage, new interstate highways, and free public education through university level.

 

The reality is that we are now in a period where each generation will have to struggle harder than the preceeding generation to stay in the same place. The causes of this can be debated, but few would deny the reality of it. There will always be some individuals who succeed, just like stocks that go up in a down market, but they are going against the trend.

 

This situation causes a national malaise, and people naturally look for a cure. There is no cure, anymore than there is a cure for getting old and slow. It requires a different mindset to keep a positive attitude in a society that is no longer ascendant. Perhaps we should ask the British how they dealt with it in the aftermath of WWI.

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The bi-partisan report is not as cut-and-dry good as conventional wisdom makes it out to be and, according to at least one Nobel-prize-winning economist, is full of really bad ideas.

I don't expect ever to win a Nobel prize, let alone one in economics, but these aren't the most persuasive arguments Krugman has ever made.

 

That said, I worry that we're looking at the late 1930's all over again, and that poorly executed attempts to balance budgets will plunge the world into a second great depression. On the other hand, maybe the reforms of the current government in Britain are going to succeed. The only thing I am somewhat certain of is that the course we are on is unsustainable. Thoughts on how we got here would cross the "no politics" line, but in many areas we, as a nation, have been living beyond our means for some time. It's not just a governmental problem; Pogo got it right more than 50 years ago.

 

5343.jpg.1763fff17a6b3a40c33480e7f6f028bb.jpg

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What say you?

 

I say, "you are just now figuring this out?"

 

Now that you get it, what do you think would turn it around?

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Hi Steve.

:wave:

I think I first cited Pogo on tis forum back in '03.

 

We" may not want a War On Drugs.

Recent polls show a majority support some form of legalization of marijuana and an end to prosecution and incarceration cost associated with it.

That may or may not be the highwater mark of acceptance/change, time will tell.

 

One of the biggest problems, and at times a strength, is our ability to only see so far into the future with national planning whilst never forgetting the past.

Or, always forgetting the past and planning for an unrealistic future. :/

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My generation, I'm 64, has lived thru one of the most prospers times in America's history. Also during that time we went from the undisputed superpower in the world to something less than. Our economy is currently under great pressure. We have deep divides between the two majority parties. There is anger among the citizens. The great divide between the rich and poor continues to grow. A large percentage of our citizens live at or below the poverty level. Children still go to bed hungry every night. Our infant mortality rate is pretty high for an industrialized country with some of the best medical care in the world. The disintegration of the the nuclear family continues. We have been engaged in the longest war in our history and the results are nebulous. Our national debt is mounting by hundreds of millions of dollars daily. The unemployment rate is very high and shows no signs of coming down very quickly. We continue to import more than export. 1% of our citizens are in jail.

 

We're the undisputed military superpower. People from most other countries flock here or send their money for the investment opportunities and to go to school. The two major political parties have always hated each other, but US Senators have largely stopped beating each other on the floor of the Senate. Citizens have always been angry, to the point where they revolted against the British and started a war between the North and the South. There is a social safety net to keep people below the poverty line from living lives of abject poverty - so much so that many people complain that people on welfare have it too good. Fewer children go to bed hungry at night because of school lunch and WIC programs. The infant mortality is still too high but has dropped over the last 50 years. The "nuclear familty" is a myth, people have always lived in extended and complicated family groups. The unemployment rate is lower than it was during the Great Depression. We import more than we export because we have disposable income to buy stuff. Incarceration rates have skyrocketed because we want to have a War on Drugs; crime rates have dropped since the 1990s. The bi-partisan report is not as cut-and-dry good as conventional wisdom makes it out to be and, according to at least one Nobel-prize-winning economist, is full of really bad ideas

 

We're having difficult times, but every generation thinks that the world is going to hell in a handbasket. And that their kids' music is too loud and their clothes are weird.

 

There are those, of course, who want you to believe that America is a state of decline as a nation, and if only you drink their magic potion, everything will be all right again and we can get our old country back. The one we had in 1946, or 1928, or 1909, or 1880, or 1824, depending on how much progress you want to give up. Saying "y'know, things are kinda bad, but not all that bad" doesn't sell newspapers or get votes, however.

 

The statement highlighted in red is simply not true. The number of children that are living with both of their biological parents who are still married to each other is certainly lower than it was 50 years ago. It used to be that was the norm. Births to single parents continue to rise. When my wife started teaching in the 70's, almost all of her 3rd grade students lived with their mother and father, who were married. By the time she retired in 2002, the majority were not, and she had one child that lived with neither biological parent but with a man who had been married to her mother and that mans new wife.

 

Without birth control and abortions, teen pregnancy rates would be even higher than they are now. I then we can all agree that teen pregnancy is not optimum. Children having children is not desirable for a society. Teen pregnancy rates by country.

This article about out of wedlock births includes these figures:

 

Other U.S. findings for 2007:

 

•60% of births to women ages 20-24 were non-marital, up from 52% in 2002.

 

•Almost one-third (32.2%) of births to women 25-29 were non-marital, up from one-quarter (25.3%) in 2002.

 

•Births to unmarried women totaled 1.7 million, 26% more than in 2002.

 

 

While a drop in infant mortality rates over 50 years is certainly a good thing, we have a long way to go.

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And closer to home, the Cubs probably won't win again this year, my furnace continues to get older with every passing season, cracks in the driveway seems to be getting bigger, cedar peak of the house needs painted again, recycling fees are going up, garage floor needs repainted, neighbors still have their boat parked on their property, which is a no-no and my R1200RT doesn't ride well in the snow.

 

However, my cardiologist remains hopeful, my urologist sees no recurrence, Orthopedic MD says my ACL is completely detached, but little pain, my hemachromatosis remains in check, though only the pacemaker stands between me and an iron induced sinus bradycardia of 33 and my ophthalmologist states no cataracts or glaucoma.

 

So come again on America's plight and what I can do to help?

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Dave McReynolds

Now that you get it, what do you think would turn it around?

 

It would take a level of cooperation between political extremes that we are unlikely to see. I'm sure that your plan would be radically different from my plan, but either plan would be better than the stalemate we find ourselves in.

 

Even then, if I were to decide to run a marathon, like I did 30 years ago, I know perfectly well how I would need to train to run it, and my body and mind could agree on a plan, but the old bod just wouldn't be able to hold up its end of the bargain.

 

We need to face the realities of our place in the new world. Living in the past is likely to destroy us.

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When you get down to where the rubber meets the road, our real overarching problem is we, as a nation, and all the politicians that control things, expect 90 day solutions to 20 year problems. You can do that for a while with smoke and mirrors, but for true solutions, you have to look way out in front.

 

Our politicians have not done that, because we the citizens want quick solutions........And politicians only worry about the next election.

 

If you always look 5' in front of your wheel, you will high side rather regularly. Our culture has the same tendency.

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Without birth control and abortions, teen pregnancy rates would be even higher than they are now. I then we can all agree that teen pregnancy is not optimum. Children having children is not desirable for a society.
I bet teen pregnancy in the period 1776-1900 was way higher than it is now, and since I mentioned 1776 that must be the proper situation - right? :/
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John Ranalletta
Without birth control and abortions, teen pregnancy rates would be even higher than they are now. I then we can all agree that teen pregnancy is not optimum. Children having children is not desirable for a society.
I bet teen pregnancy in the period 1776-1900 was way higher than it is now, and since I mentioned 1776 that must be the proper situation - right? :/
True but meaningless until set against the backdrop of a relatively short overall life expectancy. More informing would be data about teen pregnancies out of wedlock then vs. now; and, the influence of welfare programs on current rates.

 

In the developed countries, the fragmentary data that are available suggest that life expectancy at birth was around 35 to 40 years in the mid-1700s, that it rose to about 45 to 50 by the mid-1800s,
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I bet teen pregnancy in the period 1776-1900 was way higher than it is now, and since I mentioned 1776 that must be the proper situation - right? :/
True but meaningless until set against the backdrop of a relatively short overall life expectancy.
I really wasn't serious, teen pregnancies are a serious problem, in fact I think you should be 30 before you are allowed to breed. Conservatives everywhere are always glad to hear that I don't have any offspring...
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Dave, it really doesn't take cooporation between anyone or any special action on the part of the government. The United States has been a great country because it's people (or at least a significant number of them) persued greatness and did great things. If we are declining, then it can only be because fewer of our citizens are doing so. And, understanding why that is happening will lead to a real solution.

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What say you?

 

 

Yup. Doesn't take a rocket-surgeon to figure out. The golden age of the US of A has come and gone. We'll be a client-state of China in a very few years.

 

Or, someone will provoke us in a BIG way re resource acquisition or whatever vis-a-vis our entitlement mentality re our life style, and we'll pull the nuclear trigger.

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This might lead one to decide that America is in a state of decline as a nation

 

 

A lot of people said the same thing in 1860. And 1929.

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Whether we work hard or not depends on the definition of "hard work". Is that manual labor or mental labor? Hard work to me is working with your hands in difficult environments. Farm work is an example or hard work, yet we Americans prefer not to do that kind of work.

I think many countries have a fairly low opinion of America and we will soon fall behind India and China as a first class, world society.

 

I hate it when I hear people repeat that canard.

 

Nobody prefers to do that work, but millions of Americans (and in that, I include, always, our legal guests)have always done that work and still do.

 

I am reminded of a face-to-face I had with a senior aide to one of the Senators from Arizona a couple years ago. We were talking about the impact that illegal immigration has on youth employment. He said to me with a straight face, by way of an argument in favor of amnesty, "Nobody wants their kids to do that work." Dear Lord... the cultural divide bares its ugly face.

 

I guarantee that within a mile or two of where we sat were parents who do "that kind f work" and would gladly have their kids do that kind of work if they could get such a job. It might help the child find his way through college or trade school, or even help put food on the family table.

 

But no. This PhD from D.C. with his circumscribed batch of acquaintances could not imagine that somewhere might live people whose children did not have their own cars and La Coste polo shirts and who would not spend the summer by the pool at the country club. It apparently was simply beyond his imagination that there are Americans who don't live like that.

 

Dammit, you people! Wake up! Realize there is a strata of Americans who will do "that sort of work" simply because it is the only work that is available to them, and a job "like that" can be the beginning of a trip out poverty.

 

Pilgrim

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As I've said to others, we can fret and moan to no effect. How about simply appreciating the fact that we were here to witness the peak of "Western Civilization." Civilizations come and go. At least we saw the high point.

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Farm work? Really?

 

I know more than one person who has given away a "professional" career to go back to the land because that's what they grew up with and enjoy.

 

Not everybody likes latte.

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Francois_Dumas

It also greatly depends on 'what you are used to' or comparing things with.

 

Surely the situation of 30 or 40 years ago will not return? And people who lived then will remember.

 

But people who live NOW and were born say 20 or 30 years ago have no clue and will compare THEIR world with what THEY know NOW. Maybe they do NOT think that the US (or any other country for that matter) has declined so much.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is that such decline as we see today compared to 'earlier times' happened to many countries and a LONG time ago too.

Just take my own little spot on the earth, The Netherlands. There was a time when the Dutch Navy and Marines were a super power and could not be beat by ANY other country.

Together with another Micky Mouse nation (Portugal), Spain and England, we ruled the entire world.

 

Inventions were made, many people were rich (and STILL many were poor too!!) and we now call that period the Golden Age.

 

The good news for America, I guess, is that we're still here after an enormous decline in just about every aspect of life and state. And we're really not doing so bad ;)

 

I wouldn't worry on the long run. Yes, I do worry about tomorrow and my own little precious being. That's the 'human problem', isn't it?

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I agree with Francois, we won't be the first nation to go gently into that sweet night of decline, trailing clouds of past glory. Many formally great nations were smart enough to change and invest their money in ways that preserved power for at least a portion of their population. Others just thought they were right and continued down the slope.

 

I guess it doesn't really hit a nation how serious it is until one day the EU decides that English should be the official language instead of French. And England and America aren't even part of the EU or Europe.

 

----

 

 

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I guess it doesn't really hit a nation how serious it is until one day the EU decides that English should be the official language instead of French. And England and America aren't even part of the EU or Europe.
The EU doesn't have an official language, all 23 languages are considered official. Three languages, including English, have recently been designated "relay languages" and speaches are now translated from some languages to one of those before being translated to the terminal language - it's all done live by a huge team of translators. England (as part of the UK) has been a member of the EU since the 1970s. English is probably the Lingua Franca of the EU, I have a Swedish friend who works at the EU HQ and deals with Croation matters, I'll ask her what language they use.
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I'd say that there is not much to do but VOTE for the ones you think represent your needs and then go for a ride on your motorcycle.

 

The rest is just just idle chatter. Better yet, the world according to Garp.

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My generation, I'm 64, has lived thru one of the most prospers times in America's history. Also during that time we went from the undisputed superpower in the world to something less than. Our economy is currently under great pressure. We have deep divides between the two majority parties. There is anger among the citizens. The great divide between the rich and poor continues to grow. A large percentage of our citizens live at or below the poverty level. Children still go to bed hungry every night. Our infant mortality rate is pretty high for an industrialized country with some of the best medical care in the world. The disintegration of the the nuclear family continues. We have been engaged in the longest war in our history and the results are nebulous. Our national debt is mounting by hundreds of millions of dollars daily. The unemployment rate is very high and shows no signs of coming down very quickly. We continue to import more than export. 1% of our citizens are in jail.

 

Even when presented with a bi-partisan report which plainly states the measures we need to take now to prevent further financial collapse, Congress is unwilling or unable to take action.

 

This might lead one to decide that America is in a state of decline as a nation and will never again be what it was during the last half of the 20th century.

 

 

What say you?

 

 

 

 

Bring on a civil war, I'm more then ready, and prepaired!!!

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My generation, I'm 64, has lived thru one of the most prospers times in America's history. Also during that time we went from the undisputed superpower in the world to something less than. Our economy is currently under great pressure. We have deep divides between the two majority parties. There is anger among the citizens. The great divide between the rich and poor continues to grow. A large percentage of our citizens live at or below the poverty level. Children still go to bed hungry every night. Our infant mortality rate is pretty high for an industrialized country with some of the best medical care in the world. The disintegration of the the nuclear family continues. We have been engaged in the longest war in our history and the results are nebulous. Our national debt is mounting by hundreds of millions of dollars daily. The unemployment rate is very high and shows no signs of coming down very quickly. We continue to import more than export. 1% of our citizens are in jail.

 

Even when presented with a bi-partisan report which plainly states the measures we need to take now to prevent further financial collapse, Congress is unwilling or unable to take action.

 

This might lead one to decide that America is in a state of decline as a nation and will never again be what it was during the last half of the 20th century.

 

 

What say you?

 

 

 

 

Bring on a civil war, I'm more then ready, and prepaired!!!

 

 

Please use spell check when you start issuing "Marching Orders".

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I spent nearly 6 months ( 3 summer of 2 months each) picking vegetable and fruit in South Florida.

I went home to a decent house but I was 14-16 yoa and the experiences were life lessons.

I learned that I would rather do something else, BUT I was very grateful for the job.

I learned that some people work really hard for very little money and some people don't work very hard for the income they receive.

My job history falls somewhere in between.

America is in decline using some measurements.

But I do believe in Newton and the Laws so we will come back.

Best wishes.

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Dave McReynolds
Dave, it really doesn't take cooporation between anyone or any special action on the part of the government. The United States has been a great country because it's people (or at least a significant number of them) persued greatness and did great things. If we are declining, then it can only be because fewer of our citizens are doing so. And, understanding why that is happening will lead to a real solution.

 

It took me a while to figure out why I was having a problem with this line of thought, but the problem I'm having is this:

 

I think we have as many people who are capable of pursuing greatness as we ever did, and I think they will continue to pursue greatness with about the same percentage achieving success as in the past. I think there are a "significant number" of people in this category, but the number probably amounts to one out of a thousand or so people in the population as a whole.

 

50 years ago, when this person hit a home run, he would hire another 10 or 1,000 or 10,000 Americans to design and build whatever it was that he came up with, and their boats would rise with his tide. Now, the home-run hitter will likely be just as successful, but he will be floating boats in the far east rather than here in the USA.

 

We can debate whether we should have opened our doors to globalization to the extent we did, but with most of our manufacturing now being done in the far east at high quality and low cost, it would be difficult or impossible to isolate ourselves and recreate our industries at home again.

 

So we still have the majority of the population willing and capable of working at middle class jobs that are no longer there. Most of them are not capable of being retrained to higher skilled jobs, and even if they were, there is a lot of competition for higher skilled jobs now too.

 

I don't believe our problems are caused by fewer people pursuing greatness; I believe our problems are caused by a lack of opportunities for those left behind.

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Hey, I'm a Cubs fan...never intended to be in first place. But always have a hell of a time as runner up. Now we will get to know what its like to be Canada or England. And I'm okay with that, as long as we don't have an official Queen....Oprah's doing just fine - unofficially.

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It took me a while to figure out why I was having a problem with this line of thought, but the problem I'm having is this:

 

I think we have as many people who are capable of pursuing greatness as we ever did, and I think they will continue to pursue greatness with about the same percentage achieving success as in the past. I think there are a "significant number" of people in this category, but the number probably amounts to one out of a thousand or so people in the population as a whole.

 

50 years ago, when this person hit a home run, he would hire another 10 or 1,000 or 10,000 Americans to design and build whatever it was that he came up with, and their boats would rise with his tide. Now, the home-run hitter will likely be just as successful, but he will be floating boats in the far east rather than here in the USA.

 

We can debate whether we should have opened our doors to globalization to the extent we did, but with most of our manufacturing now being done in the far east at high quality and low cost, it would be difficult or impossible to isolate ourselves and recreate our industries at home again.

 

So we still have the majority of the population willing and capable of working at middle class jobs that are no longer there. Most of them are not capable of being retrained to higher skilled jobs, and even if they were, there is a lot of competition for higher skilled jobs now too.

 

I don't believe our problems are caused by fewer people pursuing greatness; I believe our problems are caused by a lack of opportunities for those left behind.

 

Dave, that doesn't square with the history of the american people. Throughout their past, americans overcame enormous adversities to make each generation better than the previous. There are still plenty of opportunities for those who seek them. If it were limited opportunity which was causing this decline then more people would be living in abject poverty, which is obviously not the case.

 

Nope, there has to be something else at work here. What could it be? Maybe we should be thinking along the lines of what made the US great to begin with.

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Bring on a civil war, I'm more then ready, and prepaired!!!

 

 

Please use spell check when you start issuing "Marching Orders".

 

Don't mind Ohio48. He's just hankerin' for another Michigan/Ohio State football game. So far, the South has been kickin' the North's butt for the past 7 years straight! :cry:

 

It'd be easier to turn around the economy than it would be to turn around Michigan's football program :smirk:

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It took me a while to figure out why I was having a problem with this line of thought, but the problem I'm having is this:

 

I think we have as many people who are capable of pursuing greatness as we ever did, and I think they will continue to pursue greatness with about the same percentage achieving success as in the past. I think there are a "significant number" of people in this category, but the number probably amounts to one out of a thousand or so people in the population as a whole.

 

50 years ago, when this person hit a home run, he would hire another 10 or 1,000 or 10,000 Americans to design and build whatever it was that he came up with, and their boats would rise with his tide. Now, the home-run hitter will likely be just as successful, but he will be floating boats in the far east rather than here in the USA.

 

We can debate whether we should have opened our doors to globalization to the extent we did, but with most of our manufacturing now being done in the far east at high quality and low cost, it would be difficult or impossible to isolate ourselves and recreate our industries at home again.

 

So we still have the majority of the population willing and capable of working at middle class jobs that are no longer there. Most of them are not capable of being retrained to higher skilled jobs, and even if they were, there is a lot of competition for higher skilled jobs now too.

 

I don't believe our problems are caused by fewer people pursuing greatness; I believe our problems are caused by a lack of opportunities for those left behind.

 

Dave, that doesn't square with the history of the american people. Throughout their past, americans overcame enormous adversities to make each generation better than the previous. There are still plenty of opportunities for those who seek them. If it were limited opportunity which was causing this decline then more people would be living in abject poverty, which is obviously not the case.

 

Nope, there has to be something else at work here. What could it be? Maybe we should be thinking along the lines of what made the US great to begin with.

 

I definitely see things the way Dave does. What also doesn't square with American history is the degree to which we have off-shored our "means of production". Unprecidented. That definitely benefits the few at the cost of the many; the nation as a whole is not better off from this practice -- not by a long shot.

 

What would have happened to our country if Henry Ford decided early on to locate his auto plants in China? :eek: Would have had a huge impact on our history and the quality of American life.

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I understand why you would think that is the cause, and though it might be a symptom, it's not the smoking gun. Again, I would take us back to why the US was great and what made it that way. From there we can work our way back to why it's declining.

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I understand why you would think that is the cause, and though it might be a symptom, it's not the smoking gun. Again, I would take us back to why the US was great and what made it that way. From there we can work our way back to why it's declining.

 

Well, I can think of many reasons our country rose above the rest at various points in time, but ultimately, whose to say what the reasons for it were?

 

For various reasons, much of the rest of the world was not in a position to compete with the American worker in the labor markets: Europe was picking itself up after the 2 world wars, and the Asian markets, economies, and infrastructure were not yet developed enough to carry any of the load. So we had the labor, service, and product markets virtually to ourselves. That's just not the case anymore.

 

The other issue was the "push" effect: we have pretty much priced ourselves out of the global marketplace. We implement all these labor laws that hike the cost of producing goods in this country, yet we do not extend those laws to products made overseas! Therefore, we effectively "punish" any company wanting to produce its goods here -- that's insane!!! We crush any incentive to want to produce anything in this country. We need to either elminate our laws so that the cost of doing business here mirrors the cost of doing business in the rest of the world OR bar any goods and services from being sold here that are not produced under the same conditions that would also be required were the good or service produced in this country. To me, that's just common sense.

 

What do you see as the "smoking gun" of the American economy?

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My generation, I'm 64, has lived thru one of the most prospers times in America's history. Also during that time we went from the undisputed superpower in the world to something less than. Our economy is currently under great pressure. We have deep divides between the two majority parties. There is anger among the citizens. The great divide between the rich and poor continues to grow. A large percentage of our citizens live at or below the poverty level. Children still go to bed hungry every night. Our infant mortality rate is pretty high for an industrialized country with some of the best medical care in the world. The disintegration of the the nuclear family continues. We have been engaged in the longest war in our history and the results are nebulous. Our national debt is mounting by hundreds of millions of dollars daily. The unemployment rate is very high and shows no signs of coming down very quickly. We continue to import more than export. 1% of our citizens are in jail.

 

Even when presented with a bi-partisan report which plainly states the measures we need to take now to prevent further financial collapse, Congress is unwilling or unable to take action.

 

This might lead one to decide that America is in a state of decline as a nation and will never again be what it was during the last half of the 20th century.

 

 

What say you?

 

 

 

 

Bring on a civil war, I'm more then ready, and prepaired!!!

 

 

Please use spell check when you start issuing "Marching Orders".

Sorry (prepared)!!!

I'm still ready by the way!!!

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Bring on a civil war, I'm more then ready, and prepaired!!!

 

 

Please use spell check when you start issuing "Marching Orders".

 

Don't mind Ohio48. He's just hankerin' for another Michigan/Ohio State football game. So far, the South has been kickin' the North's butt for the past 7 years straight! :cry:

 

It'd be easier to turn around the economy than it would be to turn around Michigan's football program :smirk:

not so much as the economy, but making the middle class strong once again.

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not so much as the economy, but making the middle class strong once again.

 

We're definitely on the same page there, that's for sure.

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