The decline of America

[AdventurePoser]

I don't know what the Chinese are doing to motivate their students, but it seems to be working. OECD Program for International Student Assessment scores for 15-year olds in 33 countries:

 

Shanghai

Reading #1

Science #1

Math #1

 

USA

Reading #17 (slightly above average)

Science #23 (significantly below average)

Math #32 (out of 33)

 

This was the first year that Shanghai students took the tests.

 

Paradoxically, the Chinese are moving toward certain values of American education that are on the endangered list....where creativity was valued, encouraged and taught. American education is going where the Chinese are beginning to move AWAY, such as in high stakes testing, pedagogy being driven by bureaucrats and "policy makers," as opposed to educators, and curriculum based on a "one size fits all" model...

 

We have had a team of six high ranking school officials from Shanghai studying and living in our community for the past 8 weeks. Their goal is to return to their institutions bringing concepts they see as invaluable in the 21st century workplace: creativity, individualism, design, cooperation, and curriculum based on student need, not mandates from on high.

 

It is a very interesting shift. In fact, my wife, who teaches a design based curriculum may be invited to set up a model of her program in Shanghai this summer.

 

Steve

[AdventurePoser]

I don't know what the Chinese are doing to motivate their students, but it seems to be working. OECD Program for International Student Assessment scores for 15-year olds in 33 countries:

 

Shanghai

Reading #1

Science #1

Math #1

 

USA

Reading #17 (slightly above average)

Science #23 (significantly below average)

Math #32 (out of 33)

 

This was the first year that Shanghai students took the tests.

 

Paradoxically, the Chinese are moving toward certain values of American education that are on the endangered list....where creativity was valued, encouraged and taught. American education is going where the Chinese are beginning to move AWAY, such as in high stakes testing, pedagogy being driven by bureaucrats and "policy makers," as opposed to educators, and curriculum based on a "one size fits all" model...

 

We have had a team of six high ranking school officials from Shanghai studying and living in our community for the past 8 weeks. Their goal is to return to their institutions bringing concepts they see as invaluable in the 21st century workplace: creativity, individualism, design, cooperation, and curriculum based on student need, not mandates from on high.

 

It is a very interesting shift. In fact, my wife, who teaches a design based curriculum may be invited to set up a model of her program in Shanghai this summer.

 

Steve

[Dave McReynolds]

It takes hundreds, maybe thousands, of little individual decisions to fly an airplane. And, while each of those choices are important, they are insignificant if the pilot and passengers don't have faith that they will arrive at their destination successfully. Until we reaquire that faith in ourselves and each other, the details don't matter. In fact, it's pointless to even consider them. Focus on that which matters most and the details will take care of themselves. Do you believe that we can be better, do better?

 

I'm not sure that faith might not be more of a symptom that things are going right rather than a cause. To follow your airplane example, passengers walk onto an airplane with faith that it will arrive at its destination because they have experienced many other successful flights. They glance forward into the cockpit and notice that the pilot looks professional. He seems to be twiddeling the knobs and switches like he knows what he's doing, and he might smile confidently at the co-pilot or flight attendant. Faith could be lost in a hurry if he took off his shoe and began banging on the instrument panel with it.

[KMG_365]

It takes hundreds, maybe thousands, of little individual decisions to fly an airplane. And, while each of those choices are important, they are insignificant if the pilot and passengers don't have faith that they will arrive at their destination successfully. Until we reaquire that faith in ourselves and each other, the details don't matter. In fact, it's pointless to even consider them. Focus on that which matters most and the details will take care of themselves. Do you believe that we can be better, do better?

 

I'm not sure that faith might not be more of a symptom that things are going right rather than a cause. To follow your airplane example, passengers walk onto an airplane with faith that it will arrive at its destination because they have experienced many other successful flights. They glance forward into the cockpit and notice that the pilot looks professional. He seems to be twiddeling the knobs and switches like he knows what he's doing, and he might smile confidently at the co-pilot or flight attendant. Faith could be lost in a hurry if he took off his shoe and began banging on the instrument panel with it.

I was thinking of Prof. Harold Hill conning his little musicians to "not worry about the notes" and rather just use his "Think Method" to play Beethoven's Minuet in G . . . but yours is much funnier.

 

The preceding is not meant to belittle the point RightSpin is making. The taking of our collective eyes off the prize can certainly hasten our undoing . . . not that we can now get a few of those genies who I fear will ultimately be our undoing back in their bottles (most have been mentioned previously) . . . .

 

One of those is our military-industrial complex which has allowed us to become a world (and domestic) leader by force and domination. We are learning a very painful lesson in hubris in this new post 20th Century era of the art of war. Even George Washington warned us against it in his farewell address upon leaving office (excerpt):

 

While, then, every part of our country thus feels an immediate and particular interest in union, all the parts combined cannot fail to find in the united mass of means and efforts greater strength, greater resource, proportionably greater security from external danger, a less frequent interruption of their peace by foreign nations; and, what is of inestimable value, they must derive from union an exemption from those broils and wars between themselves, which so frequently afflict neighboring countries not tied together by the same governments, which their own rival ships alone would be sufficient to produce, but which opposite foreign alliances, attachments, and intrigues would stimulate and embitter. Hence, likewise, they will avoid the necessity of those overgrown military establishments which, under any form of government, are inauspicious to liberty, and which are to be regarded as particularly hostile to republican liberty. In this sense it is that your union ought to be considered as a main prop of your liberty, and that the love of the one ought to endear to you the preservation of the other.

 

I fear this nemesis will be our ultimate collapse as this battleship will run aground before we can effect a course change. I'm trying to shoot holes in Dmitry Orlov's collapse theories since reading his "Thriving in the age of collapse", but it's getting harder to ignore the writing on the wall.

 

Dmitry Orlov on Grist.

 

Dmitry Orlov on Wikipedia.

[Motodan]

I don't know what the Chinese are doing to motivate their students, but it seems to be working. OECD Program for International Student Assessment scores for 15-year olds in 33 countries:

 

Shanghai

Reading #1

Science #1

Math #1

 

USA

Reading #17 (slightly above average)

Science #23 (significantly below average)

Math #32 (out of 33)

 

This was the first year that Shanghai students took the tests.

 

Is there such a thing as brain cell doping? Or perhaps they are using young looking 18 year old students in place of legal 15 year old ones? You can never trust those communist countries....its just like the Olympics. At least they won't beat us to the moon, but they sure did to Walmart!

[Matts_12GS]

Is there such a thing as brain cell doping? Or perhaps they are using young looking 18 year old students in place of legal 15 year old ones? You can never trust those communist countries....its just like the Olympics. At least they won't beat us to the moon, but they sure did to Walmart!

 

Your tinfoil hat is in the corner on the table...

[beemerman2k]

I also question a lot of these educational achievement numbers. Not that the educated class in China or India aren't doing exceptionally well, but I would think they only make up a small portion of the overall student age population. I would bet that we educate a far greater percentage of our children than those countries do.

 

So here's a question: if you took every student in a given country, added up their total test scores (a non-score = 0), then divide that sum by the actual number of people of a given age group (all citizens between the ages of 5-18 for instance), and then use that number as a "national education index".

 

national education index = Σ(test scores) / # of 5-18 year olds in that particular nation

 

OK, so I wouldn't do so well on the math portion

 

I would bet that under these conditions, the USA's "national education index" would be off the charts by comparison.

 

Now the bad news:

 

China or India doesn't need every youth in their country to excel academically. They constitute such a large population that just a fraction of kids who excel would be enough to overwhelm the western nations. If all their kids excelled then it would be all but curtains for the future of innovation and continued technological leadership for the west.

[Motodan]

Is there such a thing as brain cell doping? Or perhaps they are using young looking 18 year old students in place of legal 15 year old ones? You can never trust those communist countries....its just like the Olympics. At least they won't beat us to the moon, but they sure did to Walmart!

 

Your tinfoil hat is in the corner on the table...

 

Hope its not Reynolds Wrap...that's made in America.

[tallman]

James,

You're on the right track.

We educate everyone.

We provide breakfast, lunch, day care, counselling, policies on dating, bullying, harrassment, etc.

"In loco parentis"?

Hell, we are the closest thing to parent's some of them have.

 

Steve,

Yes, when Society values norms of conformism the grass of individualism is greener over the septic tank.

They (China) may be close to maximizing return on their present method of resource allocation and are wisely looking for more options.

We, on the other hand, seem mired in a test the student to validate the teacher morass.

In Florida there is talk of linking teacher pay to student test performance.

Like ticket quotas for LEO's.

Creativity is enhanced with art/music etc.

Here we have Constitutional amendment that limits class size in core subjects.

Comply of face fines.

Some districts are choosing the fines because that is cheaper than hiring more staff.

Eventually this will lead to larger class loads in non-core subjects and/or the elimination of art/music/drama/sports et al to comply with the ConAmend restrictions which will dictate how resources are allocated.

These changes will do wonders for creativity and drive capable students from the public schools to seek alternatives.

That is another point in comparing testing results.

Did the results include public and private school students?

 

Also, ordinal rankings don't tell enough.

Was #2 performing at 95% competency and #26 @93% competency?

 

I'm worried more about the danger educators face from well intentioned legislators than I do about the Chinese.

[Ken H.]

I don't know what the Chinese are doing to motivate their students, but it seems to be working. OECD Program for International Student Assessment scores for 15-year olds in 33 countries:

 

Shanghai

Reading #1

Science #1

Math #1

 

USA

Reading #17 (slightly above average)

Science #23 (significantly below average)

Math #32 (out of 33)

 

This was the first year that Shanghai students took the tests.

And to me that’s the most important post in this whole thread so far. How are you going to create things the rest of the world wants if you don’t have the education to do so?

 

And I’ll throw in for good measure:

 

Canada

Reading #6

Science #8

Math #10

 

----------------------------

 

Forget all this talk about restoring the USA’s competitiveness on producing this or that by tariffs, currency adjustments, roll backs of labour or environmental laws, or whatever. That ship has sailed. It’s just idle ‘turn back the clock’ wishful thinking. Even if hypothetically all that stuff did happen and all the producer countries of today’s, well - everything, were suddenly, “on a level playing field”; some other spot in the world would pop up and undercut it all yet again. Anyone for a power toothbrush made in Qatar (just to pick a name) that cost $0.35 at Wally World? That's what would/will be next.

 

Nope. The answer is to go where no one has gone before. THAT’S what built the ‘first great USA.” And it’s the only thing that would/could build the second one. The USA used to be great at new ideas and innovation, creativity, pushing the envelope, taking risks, and having the knowhow to do so. Where did it all go? (Rhetorical question.)

 

[Ken H.]

I also question a lot of these educational achievement numbers. Not that the educated class in China or India aren't doing exceptionally well, but I would think they only make up a small portion of the overall student age population. I would bet that we educate a far greater percentage of our children than those countries do.

James,

You’re on the wrong track.

It matters little the percentages of a population educated to a certain level, what matters is who has people educated to the highest levels. 20% of excellence can beat the crap out of 70% of mediocrity.

 

[tallman]

Some might posit that going from 1 lawyer per 750 people, in 1900, to more than 1 lawyer per 300 people today has had a chilling effect.

[beemerman2k]

Ken, I would put our top 20% against China and India's top 20% combined anyday anytime.

 

Back in the 80's, I was working at MIT's Hayden Library's as a computer operator. Back then, the students were sore about the number of Chinese Nationals who attended the university there. So if China does indeed have elite minds, where were they educated? That's right, the USA.

 

C'mon folks, let's get real here. Where did the very computers and operating systems that you are using, let alone the very idea of the Internet that make this very conversation possible come from? China? India? No, the good ole USA. Not Canada, not Finland (unless you are using Linux -- Linus Torvalds and/or C++ -- Bjarne Stroustrup), not China, and not India. The USA.

 

Ken, tell me about a significant technological invention that you and I rely on that was invented in India or China. C'mon Buddy, they have the geniuses, so what are they? I'm waiting...

[Quinn]

Ken, tell me about a significant technological invention that you and I rely on that was invented in India or China. C'mon Buddy, they have the geniuses, so what are they? I'm waiting...

 

Gunpowder and pasta for China off the top of my head.

 

---

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Ken, tell me about a significant technological invention that you and I rely on that was invented in India or China. C'mon Buddy, they have the geniuses, so what are they? I'm waiting...

 

Gunpowder and pasta for China off the top of my head.

 

---

 

 

If we discuss inventions in general, then all bets are off (the wheel wasn't even invented here -- so far as we know). I'm addressing recent inventions that require a high degree of education and/or intelligence to design and develop.

 

How about the largest Internet properties? Facebook, MySpace, Intuit, DPReview (now :smirk: thanks England), NewEgg, Amazon, EBay, Google, Apple, Microsoft, Twitter, BMWST.COM, and I haven't even mentioned the porn sites , where were they all developed/based/incorporated/established?

 

U. S. A.

 

Our top 20% against the world. Any time, any day. As one of my favorite Americans would say,

 

Go ahead, make my day

[Bob Palin]

U. S. A.

 

Our top 20% against the world. Any time, any day.

Fanciful jingoism and arrogance, the US has aggressively recruited the best minds from around the world to work in its universities and research labs (public and private).

 

(and no, I don't include myself, although I did invent standard deviation)

[beemerman2k]

U. S. A.

 

Our top 20% against the world. Any time, any day.

Fanciful jingoism and arrogance, the US has aggressively recruited the best minds from around the world to work in its universities and research labs (public and private).

 

(and no, I don't include myself, although I did invent standard deviation)

 

Irrelevant, Bob. That is completely beside the point.

 

Any country was perfectly free to "invent" an iPhone, the Internet, the Macintosh computer, and iPod, a PC, an operating system, high volume websites like those I mentioned, Facebook, Amazon, EBay -- any country could have done that, including China and India!

 

But not "any country" did, did they?

[tallman]

Hey, they were all free agents.

If they wanted to play at Lappeenranta University of Technology or Oxford, they had their chances.

Recruitment is easy when you have the best playing field.

 

Somehow despite all of our problems people from all over the world want to live here, work here, raise families here.

Go figure.

 

 

[Bob Palin]

U. S. A.

 

Our top 20% against the world. Any time, any day.

Fanciful jingoism and arrogance, the US has aggressively recruited the best minds from around the world to work in its universities and research labs (public and private).

 

(and no, I don't include myself, although I did invent standard deviation)

 

Irrelevant, Bob. That is completely beside the point.

 

Any country was perfectly free to "invent" an iPhone, the Internet, the Macintosh computer, and iPod, a PC, an operating system, high volume websites like those I mentioned, Facebook, Amazon, EBay -- any country could have done that, including China and India!

 

But not "any country" did, did they?

I bet you will find that a significant number of the people involved in all of those inventions did not receive their secondary education in the US (which is what we were talking about). I'm not demeaning the US, US people have done many great things.

 

And the thing we are using now, the WWW, was the invention of an Englishman.

[beemerman2k]

I am rather passionate about this issue because I am an American programmer, and not only have I seen countless programming jobs leave these shores for India and China, but I also see an attitude out there that promotes developers in those country's as somehow intellectually superior to developers in the USA.

 

So I sit back and survey the IT landscape and all I see are great technologies invented and developed by the west, and then farmed out to the east for manufacturing. So I have to wonder where this mindset that belittles the HUGE contributions -- the WORLD CHANGING contributions the American programmers have made to this field comes from? For the record, I wold be willing to expand my boundary to include all the western nations because in truth that's where I feel the seat of innovation belongs -- although you cannot ignore the SIGNIFICANT contributions made by American educated and American raised Americans!

 

So I see these sentiments and I say, "Show me". Enough with the rhetoric, where's the PROOF? What .COM can I go to that will silence my arrogance? What far east designed product can I buy to blanket my hubris? OK, nice flat screen televisions. I don't know that we can claim to have originated that technology. And gaming consoles for all I know. Good one. But that's Japan, isn't it? Where's China and India on this map of innovative thinking?

[Ken H.]

Ken, tell me about a significant technological invention that you and I rely on that was invented in India or China. C'mon Buddy, they have the geniuses, so what are they? I'm waiting...

James, A) You’re trying to stack the cards by limiting the ‘challenge’ to China and India only, and B) think outside of the technology box! There are lots of other aspects of human success and advancement beyond technology. For example - Forbes Info Link Or CIA Info Link

 

But if you insist on technology only, then I’ll name two: Japan – the Prius, France – High-speed Rail.

 

And on Nov. 14th China took over the spot of having the world’s fastest computer, Tianhe-1.

 

[beemerman2k]

And the thing we are using now, the WWW, was the invention of an Englishman.

 

Thank you, Bob. I rest my case. Tim Berners Lee. We owe him a huge debt of gratitude!

 

Last I looked Enland is not in China nor it is in India.

 

I'm still waiting on the China/India thing. Ken? You still there?

 

[beemerman2k]

Ken, tell me about a significant technological invention that you and I rely on that was invented in India or China. C'mon Buddy, they have the geniuses, so what are they? I'm waiting...

James, A) You’re trying to stack the cards by limiting the ‘challenge’ to China and India only, and B) think outside of the technology box! There are lots of other aspects of human success and advancement beyond technology.

 

 

And to you, the fact that China has managed to REPLICATE American techonology and make it go faster means their minds are superior to our piddly 20% brightest? Good for China! They have smart people who can do great things -- like copy American inventions

 

Do I actually care about or rely on that computer, though? Do you? Would anyone on this forum have even known about it if you didn't bring it up? How about the iPod, anybody here ever here of that? I'll ask the question again: What did they invent, relying on their superior intellect, that you and I rely on everyday -- at least as much as we rely on the world wide web and Facebook, but not even. WHAT?

 

And if you want to expand beyond technology, how about we go into human rights, social equality, individual freedoms, human dignity, fair trials for our criminals, our treatment of the poor -- you name it!

[tallman]

[beemerman2k]

James,

You’re on the wrong track.

It matters little the percentages of a population educated to a certain level, what matters is who has people educated to the highest levels. 20% of excellence can beat the crap out of 70% of mediocrity.

 

This is why I am limiting the discussion to China and India only. But if you'd like, point out that nation out there whose top 20% is beating the crap out of our 70%. Go for it! Still waiting...

[beemerman2k]

OK, my final argument this side of a rebuttal: I would make a STRONG case that the PRIMARY reason for the rise of India and China is the American sourced and led technological revolution. Take away American IT (OK, Bob, Western sourced IT, that's fine) and where would these countries be today? But a fraction of the nations they are now.

[Bob Palin]

I am rather passionate about this issue because I am an American programmer, and not only have I seen countless programming jobs leave these shores for India and China, but I also see an attitude out there that promotes developers in those country's as somehow intellectually superior to developers in the USA.

I don't think intellect is in any way limited or indicated by one's country of birth, too many other factors come into play to make that visible.

 

Although I'm not American (at least not United Statesian) I've spent almost my entire career as a software dweeb in the US and I've seen what James has too, in fact I was tasked with offshoring my own software department! I stalled and ignored and stalled some more until, for other reasons, the entire facility was shut down, I think they would have had to fire me because I wasn't going to write that plan. I've also hired many Asians and I've found them to be intelectually the equivalent of the US people I hired (a somewhat self selected group of course), what is different is their tendency to innovate, cultural Americans are much more likely to try something new where people from Asia tend to brilliantly do what they are told. It's both a curse and a benefit and I'm certain it is the result of nurture not nature.

[beemerman2k]

I've also hired many Asians and I've found them to be intelectually the equivalent of the US people I hired (a somewhat self selected group of course), what is different is their tendency to innovate, cultural Americans are much more likely to try something new where people from Asia tend to brilliantly do what they are told. It's both a curse and a benefit and I'm certain it is the result of nurture not nature.

 

No question. Given that Western cultures are comprised of people of all races, with a significant number of us being mixed race, there's no way I would ever attempt to suggest that our innovation is somehow race related. No, I believe it is cultural and speaks to our history of breeding curious and innovative thinkers. And while I'm on the subject of race, it breaks my heart that more black Americans have not engaged in the intellectual pursuits of pushing the technology envelope.

 

Are there absolutely brilliant people in Asia? Clearly! I am not arguing that there isn't, even though I, too, see what Bob sees in our culturally different values. I am only arguing that their set of geniuses are yet to show themselves on the world stage (where's the far eastern Tim Berners Lee?), and until they do, let's not depreciate the proven, world changing, boundary pushing, radical and unimaginably simple technology that we have clearly delivered on.

 

Will the eastern innovators ever rise on the world stage? Absolutely. But even here, it will be the influence of the west that will prompt the necessary changes in their culture to encourage such innovative thinking.

[philbytx]

sub-standard deviant more like

 

I am, of course, referring to anyone that supports Luton Town

[beemerman2k]

Nope. The answer is to go where no one has gone before. THAT’S what built the ‘first great USA.” And it’s the only thing that would/could build the second one. The USA used to be great at new ideas and innovation, creativity, pushing the envelope, taking risks, and having the knowhow to do so. Where did it all go? (Rhetorical question.)

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but again, innovation is alive and well in the USA. Maybe more so today than ever in our history. What isn't alive and well in the USA is the actual production of the innovations. And to me, that is our current economic problem, and the very reason India and China are on the economic map in the first place.

 

All our great and new innovations lead to new production lines in far eastern countries. Until we solve this problem, we will always have a major problem with our economy.

[Dave McReynolds]

Even if we were to grant that Americans have the edge in technological innovation, that really doesn't do much for the country as a whole. Given the current structure of the world's economy, a few Americans who innovate may become incredibly wealthy, aided and assisted by a few other Americans who understand American marketing and distribution, while whatever product they innovate is produced elsewhere. Can you spell M E X I C O (edit: not where the product is produced, but where I see us headed)?

 

Don't get me wrong; I'm happy that we have the edge in something other than basketball, and technological innovation is a good thing to have it in (assuming we still have it). But it doesn't do much to solve the problem that started this discussion: The decline of America, and in particular, the decline of the American middle class.

[beemerman2k]

Don't get me wrong; I'm happy that we have the edge in something other than basketball, and technological innovation is a good thing to have it in (assuming we still have it). But it doesn't do much to solve the problem that started this discussion: The decline of America, and in particular, the decline of the American middle class.

 

This is where we differ. To me, the problem with the so-called decline of America IS the decline of manufacturing jobs in America IS the decline of the middle class IS the decline of city, state, and federal tax revenues IS the decline of the abilities of middle class families to function IS the decline of the school systems IS...

 

In brief, this is how cities like Detroit, MI got to be the way they are today. And if we don't solve this problem, the rest of the country could very well look like Detroit, MI. But it isn't because we don't innovate. It's because whatever we innovate actually gets produced elsewhere. THAT is our core problem.

 

What can we possibly innovate and invent that cannot actually be produced elsewhere? Nothing I can think of. If we invent a product that makes traditional forms of energy obsolete, is clean, is cheap, is efficient -- so what if the miracle product is then actually produced elsewhere?

[FlyingFinn]

What can we possibly innovate and invent that cannot actually be produced elsewhere? Nothing I can think of.

 

Isn't big part of the problem that our recent innovations do create great wealth but they aren't really produced anywhere?

 

Google, Amazon, Facebook have created lot of wealth.

But there's nothing that needs to be produced, in the traditional sense, for each of the millions of users of those products.

Yes, there's bit of code that needs to be developed and bunch of servers that need to be maintained but that only employs a campus of "software dweebs" in Silicon Valley and another one in Bangalore.

Those IT innovations create no wealth for the American middle class. And it's not because "all the Facebook factories are in China" or something like that.

 

I have no answer how to remedy this situation. Just more questions in trying to see a way for a better future for us.

 

--

Mikko

[steve.foote]

Now that we can all agree that the United States was once a great nation, and that its greatness derived from its citizen's belief that it could be great, can we also agree that the nation might have declined due to the loss of that belief? What might have caused that?

[Dave McReynolds]

....its greatness derived from its citizen's belief that it could be great, can we also agree that the nation might have declined due to the loss of that belief?

 

Is it possible that we might have a chicken and egg problem here?

[Selden]

Ken, tell me about a significant technological invention that you and I rely on that was invented in India or China. C'mon Buddy, they have the geniuses, so what are they? I'm waiting...

China: Paper

India: The concept of zero

[Selden]

Now that we can all agree that the United States was once a great nation, and that its greatness derived from its citizen's belief that it could be great, can we also agree that the nation might have declined due to the loss of that belief? What might have caused that?

You're taking me back to my freshman humanities course (in Istanbul) and Gilbert Murray's "failure of nerve": http://rossmooratheists.info/AApages/Failure%20of%20Nerve%20Page.html

[beemerman2k]

Those IT innovations create no wealth for the American middle class. And it's not because "all the Facebook factories are in China" or something like that.

 

I have no answer how to remedy this situation. Just more questions in trying to see a way for a better future for us.

 

--

Mikko

 

There have been countless IT innovations that have and would continue to revolutionize our own economy if those products were produced here. Everything from the microcomputer to cell phones to iPads to iPhones to Macintosh's to tech components (monitors, hard disk drives, etc) to software (both corporate and commercial). Literally millions of Indians and Chinese people work for American firms producing these products and writing this code. In fact, walk into your local Best Buy and see if you can even find a product that they sell that is actually made in America! Same with Walmart, same with Home Depot, same with Nordstroms. Were all that work done by American companies actually located here our economies would be completely revolutionized, and we'd be talking about how strong American remains in the world today as the clear and lone global superpower.

 

So this is the point of the latest move by the Fed and their "quantitative easing" strategy. The hope is that it makes it cost effective for companies to locate their production facilities here rather than there.

[KMG_365]

Ken, tell me about a significant technological invention that you and I rely on that was invented in India or China. C'mon Buddy, they have the geniuses, so what are they? I'm waiting...

China: Paper

India: The concept of zero

Actually, I think that the Zero was a Persian/Arabian invention (Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Khwarizmi was born in Afghanistan and worked in northern Iran when he wrote about the use of a "sifr" to hold the place and keep the rows straight).

 

But there are many more significant inventions made by China than just paper (hint: the compass, gunpowder and printing may be a bit dated, but we would look MUCH different today without them).

 

And some might find the list of Indian contributions to the technological (and other) advancement of our species interesting.

 

Just as one culture waxes brilliant, another follows it's demise with it's own contribution. To date the Chinese probably ruled the longest (2133 years: 221 BCE-1912 CE), but there were many cycles within that "empire". So too, our growth-driven economy is destined for great swings and resets. We've been good at using our wits, creativity and drive for acquisition to exploit first the original inhabitants of this continent and then naturally it spread to the whole world. I'm as proud of the American Dream, this great experiment of a Democracy in a Republic as the next, but I'm not willing to whitewash it. It's my country, right or wrong: when it's right, keep it right, when it's wrong get it right again. We share this beautiful ball of dust with others and what we do to the least of our brethren we do to our Creator. I am reminded of a moving hymn set the beautiful music of Finlandia:

This is my song, oh God of all the nations,

a song of peace for lands afar and mine.

This is my home, the country where my heart is;

here are my hopes, my dreams, my holy shrine;

but other hearts in other lands are beating

with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine

 

My country's skies are bluer than the ocean,

and sunlight beams on clover leaf and pine.

But other lands have sunlight too and clover,

and skies are everywhere as blue as mine.

This is my song, thou God of all the nations;

a song of peace for their land and for mine.

 

Surely there must be a better solution to more universal prosperity than the dead end we're currently barreling down. I hope we can find it and I believe if any culture can it might just as likely be us. I fear we have to suffer a much greater wake-up call to distract us from our hedonistic materialism pushing us to the brink.

[yabadabapal]

+1

I think we are only a little over 200 years old which makes us one of the younger countries. And as with all youngsters, as we get older, we get wiser and more stable. I don't believe for a minute that America is declining. We are more likely going through a much needed recalibration from top to bottom. Further good news is that we are resource abundant and with or without the help of other nations, we are capable of using the abundant resources we have and revitalizing our economy, our work force, our priorities, out politics, our family and moral values and responsibilities to ourselves and each other. The greatest threat to our democracy is not other nations but rather it is ourselves in so much that we should be under such an illusion that because we are a democracy we can do and have what ever we want. Freedom is not for free.

 

[Boffin]

Ken, I would put our top 20% against China and India's top 20% combined anyday anytime.

 

Back in the 80's, I was working at MIT's Hayden Library's as a computer operator. Back then, the students were sore about the number of Chinese Nationals who attended the university there. So if China does indeed have elite minds, where were they educated? That's right, the USA.

 

C'mon folks, let's get real here. Where did the very computers and operating systems that you are using, let alone the very idea of the Internet that make this very conversation possible come from? China? India? No, the good ole USA. Not Canada, not Finland (unless you are using Linux -- Linus Torvalds and/or C++ -- Bjarne Stroustrup), not China, and not India. The USA.

 

Ken, tell me about a significant technological invention that you and I rely on that was invented in India or China. C'mon Buddy, they have the geniuses, so what are they? I'm waiting...

 

It is not yesterday's innovations that you need to worry about - it is tomorrows. The kids in school today are the people who will be making them.

 

Andy

[Selden]

Patents by Country, December 2009

Total, U.S. And Foreign Origin

2007 182928

2008 185244

2009 191933

 

-- Subtotal -- U.S. Origin

2007 93690

2008 92001

2009 95037

 

-- Subtotal -- Foreign Origin

89238

93243

96896

 

Source: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/cst_all.htm

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Actually, I think that the Zero was a Persian/Arabian invention (Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Khwarizmi was born in Afghanistan and worked in northern Iran when he wrote about the use of a "sifr" to hold the place and keep the rows straight).

 

But there are many more significant inventions made by China than just paper (hint: the compass, gunpowder and printing may be a bit dated, but we would look MUCH different today without them).

 

I think "dated" is important. If other nations are centuries (or even millenia) old, and America is only 234 years old, it seems reasonable to take just a 234-year chunk of history from any other nation and compare it to ours. In fairness, it ought to be the most recent 234-year chunk of history.

 

So...what great inventions and achievements have come out of other countries in the past 234 years?

[steve.foote]

Surely there must be a better solution to more universal prosperity than the dead end we're currently barreling down. I hope we can find it and I believe if any culture can it might just as likely be us.

 

Jamie, there is a solution! Hebert said it correctly when he posted about taking better care of our family and friends. We worry about a lot of things these days. But it is our family and friends which matter most. If we invest our time being better people, taking better care of our friends and families then we are automatically taking care better of our country. We are our country.

 

I've lamented most of this thread about the lack of focus on that which matters most - our belief in ourselves, in what we can be and do. If America is declining, it can only be because WE are declining. So, instead of waiting for the rest of the country to "get it," we ought to instead get on with it ourselves.

 

Go out and do better, be better. Be part of what makes this country great.

[beemerman2k]

Steve, no one is going to disagree with what you are saying, but the very desire to take care of our families is what fuels the unhappiness with what we see taking place in our country today.

 

I want my children to get a great education, but that's going to be difficult to see given the rise of college tuitions and the simultaneous decrease in salaries and wages. I want my family to have good health care, but again, that's made more and more difficult with the constant rise in costs. I want my children to get involved with school activities and community sports programs, but when budget cuts eliminate these programs there isn't a whole lot you can do to replace the opportunities while they are still young enough to participate in them. I would like to take my family on trips around the country and the world, but when massive layoffs hit the job and all manner of opportunities are offshored to other countries it makes spending any money beyond that which is absolutly necessary difficult to justify.

 

In short, being a great person is critical regardless of the nature of the society you live in, but that is not going to replace the benefits of opportunity, jobs, and eduation. Nor is it going to make up for a country that is falling apart because of massive unemployment, unfunded social costs (welfare, unemployment, health care, etc), and a war on 2 fronts. And that's what we're talking about here. You must have a healthy business community that creates opporunity and wealth for the society they reside in. Our healthy business community creates opportunity and wealth for Asian country's as much as it does for our own here in the west -- maybe even more so. And on top of this, people are now thinking that the sun has set on the West, which to me it clearly has not, and that Asian country's are somehow superior to my own, which I strongly dispute.

 

OK, what am I missing here? :confused:

[Ken H.]

It is not yesterday's innovations that you need to worry about - it is tomorrows. The kids in school today are the people who will be making them.

Exactly.

 

That’s what I find frustrating about these types of conversations. (In a lot of different venues.) They always seem to focus on going back. Bringing back what use to be. One of the better known pundent’s phrase is, ‘Let’s take America back.” Conversations are about restoring America, regaining our manufacturing capacity, etc. Turning the clock back, said different ways.

 

'You know, what the USA really needs to restore its greatness and superiority in the world is a darn good horse buggy. We could do it! We’ve got the educated people, the design, the resources, the workforce, the manufacturing capacity. Let’s restore America to its 19xx greatness!'

 

Now substitute the words “horse buggy” for anything we (the USA) ever created and the end results will be exactly the same.

 

It’s like the whole darn nation has become little old ladies in their rocking chairs at the nursing home, “I remember the days when...”

 

Where’s the conversations about new?

 

 

[beemerman2k]

Ken, the issue is the production of the new, not the new itself. American is constantly creating "new", but those new things only result in "new" production lines overseas.

 

What can American possibly invent that is "new" that cannot be offshored to China or India? If it can be offshored, it will be offshored. Why? Because Asians are smarter than we in the West? No! It's because they work for less money -- end of story.

 

So when people like me say:

 

'You know, what the USA really needs to restore its greatness and superiority in the world is a darn good horse buggy. We could do it! We’ve got the educated people, the design, the resources, the workforce, the manufacturing capacity. Let’s restore America to its 19xx greatness!'

 

What I mean is let's keep our means of production here and not put it there. If we don't keep it here, then any conversation about "new" is completely and totally senseless! A total waste of time as it will only result in "new" production lines in Asia, and no new jobs in America.

[Ken H.]

I've lamented most of this thread about the lack of focus on that which matters most - our belief in ourselves, in what we can be and do.

You’ve mentioned that a couple of times Steve and I’ve been contemplating it. I was going to reply once earlier, but I wasn’t entirely clear if you felt belief in ourselves was the singular shortcoming (which I would disagree with), or just a sub-component of why we no longer ‘have what it takes.’ E.g. a top notch, educational system, committed workforces, cohesive government, etc.

 

Or to phrase it as a question, do you think the USA is failing (or falling behind at any rate) just because of a lack of self confidence and all the other necessary pieces are still there? Or the necessary pieces are also gone because our self confidence, lack of belief in ourselves, has lead to the demise of the necessary hard components of success?

 

 

But regardless, I think you touch on a key point when you say, “If we invest our time being better people, taking better care of our friends and families then we are automatically taking care better of our country. We are our country.”

 

THAT’S the kind of new frontier of success where, IMHO, opportunity for the USA, indeed much of the Western world, lays. Just think of how envious the rest of the world would be if the USA figured out how to solve those issues. Not in inventing yet another i-something technology gadget that ultimately disappoints as yet again turning out to not be the key to happiness, contentment, relationships, love, that we were all excited about when we plunked down our $349.

[Ken H.]

Ken, the issue is the production of the new, not the new itself. American is constantly creating "new", but those new things only result in "new" production lines overseas.

 

What can American possibly invent that is "new" that cannot be offshored to China or India? If it can be offshored, it will be offshored. Why? Because Asians are smarter than we in the West? No! It's because they work for less money -- end of story.

James, my friend, quit thinking so myopically! Life, and success, is not just all about inanimate things you can hold in your hands. We as Western society has bought hook line and sinker into this concept that happiness, contentment, success, love even, is reliant on things. That the only way we seem to be able to define success, or decline, is by a measurement of ability to produce things.

 

But in the world that is today, that’s an end loosing game. There will always be some peoples somewhere that can and will do ‘things’ cheaper than us. It will happen to China and India too. You and I may not live to see it, but the day will come when some dirt poor peoples somewhere will be able to do better/cheaper what they do now. The poverty levels of many, many areas world absolutely guarantee that!

 

The progression, movement of the epicenter of the automobile production industry is a perfect example. From the USA to Japan, then Korea, then China/India, and eventually wherever is next down the chain.

 

Rather, as Steve alluded to, the real answer is to reinvent what the term ‘United States of America” means. To create a new paradigm that defines what ‘best on earth’ means.

 

Heck I’ll even through one out there – What if the USA invented an entirely new way to more rapidly and accurately educate our youth? Think of the possibilities from that...

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

James, my friend, quit thinking so myopically! Life, and success, is not just all about inanimate things you can hold in your hands. We as Western society has bought hook line and sinker into this concept that happiness, contentment, success, love even, is reliant on things. That the only way we seem to be able to define success, or decline, is by a measurement of ability to produce things.

 

The fact is that some material things will always be needed, even if it's only the buses and trains used for public transit. James' issue (and mine, and a lot of people) is that if the material things we use in this country are made in other countries, then jobs and wealth continually get exported. I don't think we're specifically interested in having more material things made, but of the material things that get made, it would be beneficial to the US if more of them were made domestically.