the asinine (?) price of gasoline; let's have a 2-3 day boycott!

[marcopolo]

A friend was in Canada (the largest supplier to the USA) recently and said he was paying $2.40 per LITER for gas.

 

/Hijack/ We do pay more for gas than you do, but your friend must have been at the point of a gun if he paid that. A litre of regular in our city will cost you anywhere from $1.00 to $1.10/litre today. And yes, we (Canada) are your largest foreign supplier of energy -- not just oil, but natural gas, electricity and uranium. /hijack/

[Bob Palin]

Folks with motorcycles have the option of selling the bike and saving the gas money.

How does that save gas money? Both my car and my truck use considerably more than my motorcycle.

[Bob Palin]

if we can simply produce our way out of the problem, why aren't we?

Because 'we' don't control the majority of the means of production. We have some supply but extensive expansion of production would quickly make it too expensive to extract. The companies/countries that are producing oil know that there is a finite supply and the way to get the most return out of it is to ration us, don't forget that they have a cartel.

 

$5-6 a gallon? - I thought inflation was supposed to be a bad thing for economies?

[velomoto]

The companies/countries that are producing oil know that there is a finite supply and the way to get the most return out of it is to ration us, don't forget that they have a cartel.

How come so many Americans just don't get this??? Is it THAT complicated???

 

$5-6 a gallon? - I thought inflation was supposed to be a bad thing for economies?

Inflation is bad for economies - but high prices are good for reducing our addiction to fossil fuel. Guess it's that Yin-Yang thing.

[steve.foote]

The part I don't get is that there is loads of oil right under our noses, and we somehow are not allowed to go get it. Why can't people understand that?

[Matts_12GS]

The part I don't get is that there is loads of oil right under our noses, and we somehow are not allowed to go get it. Why can't people understand that?

 

That's kind of my question, although I suppose Bob has a point (in at least the short term) about the increase of supply lowering prices enough to make it cost ineffective to get the oil. It seems to me that those costs would amortize over the years, after all, the Saudis haven't gone out of business because prices fell.

[steve.foote]

Not only that, Matt, but SA seems to be doing pretty well drilling for oil in their own backyard. Yet, we can't seem to bring our selves to do the same.

[smiller]

What fools we are.

[velomoto]

The part I don't get is that there is loads of oil right under our noses, and we somehow are not allowed to go get it. Why can't people understand that?

Let me answer your question with a question: If you were the CEO of an energy company, would you be more motivated to pump as much energy as possible to keep prices down or limit supply to let prices rise and make as much profit as possible? People claim it's the fault of the liberals that there have been no new refineries built in decades - yet many refineries have vast open land surrounding them which could be used to expand capacity. The refineries don't need to add capacity to increase profit - they simply let the supply tighten and then adjust prices.

 

 

We (Americans) have a few basic options:

 

1. We can continue to encourage our (America's) wasteful habits by keeping fuel prices as low as possible for as long as possible by drilling every possible reserve and subsidizing the drilling companies.

 

2. Allow the free market to do as it will and accept the results - remember the lines for gas in the 70's and wildly varying prices?

 

3. Increase prices now and subsidize alternative energy, mass transit and other infrastructure changes to make America more energy efficient.

 

We've been blessed with cheap fuel for decades - more than a half century in fact. But with China and other parts of the world developing and increasing their fuel consumption 30% to 50% annually, the reality is that crude prices will rise. It's that basic law of economics: supply and demand.

[velomoto]

The part I don't get is that there is loads of oil right under our noses, and we somehow are not allowed to go get it. Why can't people understand that?

 

That's kind of my question, although I suppose Bob has a point (in at least the short term) about the increase of supply lowering prices enough to make it cost ineffective to get the oil. It seems to me that those costs would amortize over the years, after all, the Saudis haven't gone out of business because prices fell.

Ummmm exactly which price fall were you thinking would have driven them out of business? When they pushed OPEC to increase production to ease the Asian economic crisis in '97-'98 timeframe?

 

The price of Saudi oil has nothing to do with the cost of production - they can pull it out of the ground for a small part of the $100+ per barrel it fetches on the market. Sure drilling for oil in the ocean or Arctic is more expensive than what it costs in the middle east, but both can be done profitably at prices far below the current prices.

[velomoto]

Not only that, Matt, but SA seems to be doing pretty well drilling for oil in their own backyard. Yet, we can't seem to bring our selves to do the same.

I think you're on to something, but I'm not sure SA will want us in their backyard!

[Red]

For 2007 the big bad evil Exxon Mobil had a record return on total capital of 31.5% and a return on shareholder equity of 33.4%. It made front page and diner hour news. Compare that with Microsoft 45.2% on both return on capital and shareholder equity in 2007. I don't see the hungry masses clamoring to boycot the bill and Melinda cartel? I say shut down your PC's for a week. We'll really show them who has the power!

[steve.foote]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. SSDD.

[MikeRC]

A friend was in Canada (the largest supplier to the USA) recently and said he was paying $2.40 per LITER for gas. The last time I looked, people in Norway (#3 exporter, after Saudi Arabia and Russia) were paying about the same price.

 

Although Canada may be the largest single foreign supplier of crude and petroleum products to the US:

Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports 2007-08

 

it pales by comparison to the OPEC nations:

 

5000+ barrels/d for OPEC nations

1850 from Canada

1400+ from Mexico

1700+ from other nations

 

and 5000+ domestic production. Or 1/3 of the total daily consumption of the US.

 

It would seem fairly obvious that reducing reliance on imported oil would put some control back in the hands of the US. Since oil is a finite resource, and even the most generous estimates of frontier reserves always leave OPEC countries with more then 60% of the world reserves, they will always run the show.

 

Mike Cassidy

 

(who freely admits to living in a city and province with practically no unemployment, rampant home value inflation and a red hot economy because of North American reliance on fossil fuels)

[steve.foote]

2. Allow the free market to do as it will and accept the results - remember the lines for gas in the 70's and wildly varying prices?

 

BTW, what happened to gas prices and supply during the eighties, nineties and the first half of the 2000's?

 

Rut-row.

[steve.foote]

BTW, Congress is getting ready to take them to the woodshed tomorrow.

Oil execs to take heat from lawmakers Tuesday

 

It's about time. I'll bet our lawmakers give those scoundrals a stern lecture. Maybe even a pointed finger AND an angry look. WooooHoooooHooooo, I can feel the prices coming down already.

 

Yeah.

[velomoto]

2. Allow the free market to do as it will and accept the results - remember the lines for gas in the 70's and wildly varying prices?

 

BTW, what happened to gas prices and supply during the eighties, nineties and the first half of the 2000's?

 

Rut-row.

The debacle under Carter was just an example of the possible reaction of an unregulated supply/demand market. Post Carter we've enjoyed a long period (several decades) of plentiful supply but IMO this has ended as demand has caught up with current supply. For the sake of my children, I wish I were wrong about this. In any case, here are some historic charts showing inflation adjusted crude and gas prices:

 

Crude Prices: linky

 

Gas Prices: linky

 

One opinion on the economics of oil prices: linky

[velomoto]

BTW, Congress is getting ready to take them to the woodshed tomorrow.

Oil execs to take heat from lawmakers Tuesday

 

It's about time. I'll bet our lawmakers give those scoundrals a stern lecture. Maybe even a pointed finger AND an angry look. WooooHoooooHooooo, I can feel the prices coming down already.

 

Yeah.

One of the tabloids had a story about Congress wanting to spank the oil execs but I don't recall which members were going to take part...

[Selden]

Thanks for the correction -- when he told me this, I said "Are you sure?" I paid $1.00 - $1.10 from western Ontario to the Yukon in the summer of 2006, and couldn't believe it had gone up that much

[Matts_12GS]

The fact remains though, we can impact supply by drilling "locally" as relative as that may be. The issue is time and that this will require a fundamental shift of opinions and approach to the business models of the world's petroleum companies.

 

IF peak oil truly is at hand in middle east sources, then we better get hot about making inroads to getting that which we have been protecting for so many years.

 

At that point, we may be able to turn the tides on SA and the rest of the sand box for a few more decades and ultimately use radical Christianity to put Gideon bibles in all those fancy hotels in Dubai, etc.

 

At that point, we'll have "won."

 

either that or lets just invade Canada and get the oil sands. I figure we could be ready by the start of hockey season and then we'd own them!

[steve.foote]

Speaking of invading countries for oil, what happened to all that Iraqi oil we were supposedly going war for?

 

No need to answer, Guys. It was a rhetorical question.

[smiller]

Speaking of invading countries for oil, what happened to all that Iraqi oil we were supposedly going war for?

They screwed up so bad that we don't have it.

[MattS]

They screwed up...

Who is "they" and when did you move to Mexico?

[smiller]

You are correct, the better pronoun would be 'we' (temporarily ignoring the fact that not everyone was in favor of the exercise.) The point remains the same, that is the fact that we don't have access to Iraqi oil is due to various strategic failures, not a lack of intention. At the outset of the war Iraqi oil was freely promoted as one of the factors that would lower the cost of the war (by helping pay for reconstruction.)

[MattS]

...we don't have access to Iraqi oil is due to various strategic failures...

Various strategic failures? You mean like sabotage?

[smiller]

No, I meant like incompetence. But I'm not going any further with this line for obvious reasons.

[Quinn]

At some price point, it will be cost effective to use biofuels and we can start complaining about farm subsidies instead of oil company subsidies.

 

Remember, it's not so much who has the most as it is who has it last.

[Ken H.]

The part I don't get is that there is loads of oil right under our noses, and we somehow are not allowed to go get it. Why can't people understand that?

Where? I've never seen anything that would indicate there are massive reserves under the North American continent.

[MattS]

I've never seen anything that would indicate there are massive reserves under the North American continent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Tar_Sands

[Ken H.]

Our problem is we American's have become intoxicated on V8 engines, full size pickup trucks, SUV's and single occupant commuting. Until Americans give up our addiction to excessive, per capita oil consumption, the oil companies will happily supply our nasty street corner habit.

Exactly. We've created the mess with our own addiction to personal vehicles as primarily a social status symbol. And then we complain bitterly about the situation we ourselves have created.

 

Moving people around one or two at a time is a dead end proposition at any cost. Until we are willing to embrace mass transit in the USA there can be no solution. IMHO of course.

[Mike]

The part I don't get is that there is loads of oil right under our noses, and we somehow are not allowed to go get it. Why can't people understand that?

Where? I've never seen anything that would indicate there are massive reserves under the North American continent.

 

He's perhaps referring to the large reserves of tar sands. The reserves are huge, but it's considerably more difficult to extract petroleum in this manner. Nonetheless, the methods of extraction have improved considerably in recent years. I suppose that, as the price of oil increases, these reserves will become an even more economically viable source.

 

There are also quite a few sources of petroleum elsewhere in North America that just could not be tapped as economically as those elsewhere (like the Middle East). It stands to reason that those sources may become more viable as prices increase. However, I don't believe it's likely that we will ever identify sufficient North American reserves to meet all our needs.

[MattS]

We've created the mess with our own addiction to personal vehicles as primarily a social status symbol.

Exactly. So when are you selling your bike (social status symbol that it is)?

[smiller]

However, I don't believe it's likely that we will ever identify sufficient North American reserves to meet all our needs.

Indeed, which is one of the main drivers behind trying to move away from a totally oil-dependant economy. Boosting supply (at even greater production costs) is a relatively short-term solution at best.

[Ken H.]

So when are you selling your bike (social status symbol that it is)?

Oh for cryin' out loud, for about the 100th GD time - My bike is my primary form of transportation. I put about 12K a year on my bike, about 2K on my car.

[smiller]

So why do you own the car? Why? WHY???

[Mike]

So when are you selling your bike (social status symbol that it is)?

Oh for cryin' out loud, for about the 100th GD time - My bike is my primary form of transportation. I put about 12K a year on my bike, about 2K on my car.

 

Aaah, so the car's the status symbol, eh?

 

[Rob_Mayes]

What would happen if everyone, on a specific 2-3 day period, refused to buy a drop of the stuff? Maybe even a week; I would go seven days, to make a point! Oil companies are making sinful levels of profits and politicians who are bought and paid for by the oil companies, refuse to help the consumers who are getting pounded.

 

Once our govenment let Exxon buy Mobil, Phillips 66 buy Connoco, British Petroleum buy Amoco, Chevron buy Texaco, etc...our goose was cooked. A boycott would only give them time to go out and raise the prices without any interference from the customer at the pumps. I wonder if the goverment pays the pump price.

[velomoto]

Oh for cryin' out loud, for about the 100th GD time - My bike is my primary form of transportation. I put about 12K a year on my bike, about 2K on my car.

Patience... some people are slooooow learners!

[steve.foote]

Alright, let me share a closely held secret with all of you conspiracy theorists out there.

 

The government, yep, YOUR government, doesn't believe fuel prices are going to stay high for very long. How do I know this? Simple, nothing stands between our beloved representatives and their drug of choice, OPM (properly pronounced o-pi-um). If they really believed that fuel prices would continue to rise, they would scrap the current "per gallon" tax and replace it with an "indexed" tax.

 

Trust me when I say, they are not missing an opportunity to vacuum some extra cabbage out of your wallets. You heard it here first.

 

[and now back to your regularly scheduled program]

[DavidEBSmith]

Oh for cryin' out loud, for about the 100th GD time - My bike is my primary form of transportation. I put about 12K a year on my bike, about 2K on my car.

 

You oughta get a program like I-Go car sharing running in Overland Park and then you wouldn't need to own that car.

[Matts_12GS]

Oh for cryin' out loud, for about the 100th GD time - My bike is my primary form of transportation. I put about 12K a year on my bike, about 2K on my car.

You oughta get a program like I-Go car sharing running in Overland Park and then you wouldn't need to own that car.

 

 

Or maybe move someplace with lower population density than KS where there's better mass transit allowing you to get rid of the bike also. A side benefit will be that your rented house could be bulldozed and returned to greenspace and help reduce the impact of human living on the planet...

 

It's gotta be close to earth day, my urge to run a two stroke engine is kicking in... Where's my leaf blower?

[Ken H.]

So why do you own the car? Why? WHY???

It's old (1995), paid for, cheap to keep and run, handy to have every once in a great while. Like when the bike's broke.

[Ken H.]

Aaah, so the car's the status symbol, eh?

 

Just for the record, that is NOT my car.

[Ken H.]

You oughta get a program like I-Go car sharing running in Overland Park and then you wouldn't need to own that car.

Yeah, there's a couple of those type of programs around the country. I think they are a GREAT idea! As is just renting one whenever you happen to need it. Actually I think vehicle sharing is rather common in some parts of the world. If I suddenly found myself cageless somehow, I'd seriously consider going that route.

[steve.foote]

You oughta get a program like I-Go car sharing running in Overland Park and then you wouldn't need to own that car.

Yeah, there's a couple of those type of programs around the country. I think they are a GREAT idea! As is just renting one whenever you happen to need it. Actually I think vehicle sharing is rather common in some parts of the world. If I suddenly found myself cageless somehow, I'd seriously consider going that route.

 

Come on, Dude. Do it for your country.

[velomoto]

You oughta get a program like I-Go car sharing running in Overland Park and then you wouldn't need to own that car.

Yeah, there's a couple of those type of programs around the country. I think they are a GREAT idea! As is just renting one whenever you happen to need it. Actually I think vehicle sharing is rather common in some parts of the world. If I suddenly found myself cageless somehow, I'd seriously consider going that route.

This has been successful with private jets and yachts. I've also seen it used with uber expensive sports cars such as Ferrari's and Lamborghini's.

[velomoto]

Alright, let me share a closely held secret with all of you conspiracy theorists out there.

 

The government, yep, YOUR government, doesn't believe fuel prices are going to stay high for very long. How do I know this? Simple, nothing stands between our beloved representatives and their drug of choice, OPM (properly pronounced o-pi-um). If they really believed that fuel prices would continue to rise, they would scrap the current "per gallon" tax and replace it with an "indexed" tax.

 

Trust me when I say, they are not missing an opportunity to vacuum some extra cabbage out of your wallets. You heard it here first.

 

[and now back to your regularly scheduled program]

Or one could believe that fuel (like a number of other items) is a sacred cow which must not be touched.

 

Just to confirm I'm understanding your post correctly - you believe the government knows what fuel prices will do???

[steve.foote]

Just to confirm I'm understanding your post correctly - you believe the government knows what fuel prices will do???

 

Nobody understands revenue like Congress.

[velomoto]

It's gotta be close to earth day, my urge to run a two stroke engine is kicking in... Where's my leaf blower?

Hopefully you've yourself got a nice green dualie for commuting! I'd also expect to find you tooling around on an H2 - no not the H2 Hummer, but the Kawasaki H2 triple from back in the early 70's. linky

With a well tuned expansion chamber, this baby will put your weed whacker to shame!

[Berkley]

Why do high fuel prices make it harder on the indie trucker than on the fleet trucker?

 

Nobody has answered this, and my knowledge of the trucking industry comes from listening to XM 171, but I believe the company truckers can get fuel from truck company depots or locations where the company has a fleet discount, or charge it to the company, but the independent truckers pay for fuel themselves so it comes out of their profit margin.

 

Or maybe this is the problem.

 

From what I've gleaned....

The independent truckers (90% of all truckers!!) are paid a set amount per route, NOT getting compensated for the increased fuel costs. Despite transport companies charging extra for the "fuel", they're not passing it on to the trucker. Only the company truckers who gas up on the company's dime are OK.