Painful indictment against BMW after the IBR

[eakins]

Hey look, another FD thread with the same pontificators jumping all over it!

 

Jim

from your past posts you basicly are a true BMW diehard. bmw does no wrong and you love your bike to death. you've got your head in the sand. that's fine.

 

this however is a public forum. this thread is based on a statement that came out after the IBR and thus we're discussing that back and forth. that's what people do. i have my opnions and so do others. i have owned 2 bmws in the past and might own another if issues are sorted out with this company. i do like what bmw builds but i buy things are are done right.

 

we're all stating our opninions/facts/observations to gain clarity. your comment (and you like to do this in other posts i've read), on the other hand, basicly says you guys are wasting your time again with this useless chatter. i does nothing for the thread. my guess is you don't like people who don't agree with you.

[eakins]

I skimmed the posts, and it seems to get overlooked that 4 or the 5 top finishers were on BMW's including the winner on a R1200GSA. A Harley was the other top 5... also considered ot be unreliable. So the 2 least reliable makes, made up ALL of the top finishers. The Hondas and Yamahas were Also-rans further down the list.

 

Personally, I think that finishing in the top echelon of the IBR is 90% about the RIDER and 10% about the bike. Unless the bike completely craps out, of course.

i'd agree to that. it's an endurance exercise on the rider. it's also one for the bike, but the idea is with proper prep and having a good bike to start with, the bike becomes a means (a tool) for that rider to test his/her endurance. the failures are outside the riders control for that situation, but as a whole the rider does have control over which bike to chose for future IBR. it will be interesting to see the stats of the next IBR for bike usage compare to this years. IBR riders are very aware of what works and what doesn't.

[steve.foote]

The argument that BMW's are exotic machines and we ought to just concede that high failure rates are ok because we made the decision to buy them is just bunk. BMW's are not exotic machines. They were made for a world market and ought to serve that market or suffer the consequence in the market place.

 

Easy now, don't go putting words in my mouth. No where in my post did I say anything about it being OK for any product to have high failure rates. Nor did I acknowledge that there is such a high failure rate in this case.

 

My point was simple. BMW's are exotic motorcycles. Their world/national/regional sales numbers are comparatively small when stacked up against the major makes. With that decision to "go exotic" comes smaller R&D budgets, smaller manufacturing efforts, fewer dealers and a corresponding smaller support organization. It's simple math.

 

That's the tradeoff one has to consider when purchasing BMW (Ducati, Aprilia, Triumph, MV Agusta, etc. for that matter). The choice is the consumers and the consumers alone. You pay your money, you take your chances.

 

Or, you can buy a honda.

[steve.foote]

We temporarily interrupt the serial dissing of each other and our countries for this statement:

 

"I love my Suzondayamasaki and thinks this thread is going to keep me riding it despite some recent leanings toward a R12GS."

 

Please resume flogging this dead horse.

 

Let me 'splain something here, Matt. If your Suzondayamasaki ever gets close to the rear of my exotic KTM, it'll probably get mud splattered all over it.

 

[steve.foote]

It's not as if there's no issue here, but it seems like internet discussion boards must swing from one hot issue to the next. If a visitor dropped in here, you couldn't blame them for thinking that 86% of the final drives were failing.

 

David, I think this is just part of human nature. Just look to the papers for evidence of this. Their headlines are carefully focus-group tested to attract readers, which is why the headline, "Housing crisis deepens with third monthly decline" would be more likely than, "Housing market declines for third month in a row."

 

As a society, we seem to thrive on crisis and controversy. I doubt you will ever see the following headline blazoned on any major newspaper anytime soon, "No major news to report. All-in-all, it has been a very good day." Good news simply isn't interesting.

[tnmtnrider]

Everybody that knows somebody that works with news papers in your area should call the news paper and ask if they would be interested in placing an article in their paper. Hopefully front page with truth and exact facts. That will give BMW a lot of publicity. They might not like the type of publicity, but it will be the truth. BMW would want it in every paper in American and Canada if all of their bikes had finished without problems.

But I do love my RT,

[David]

Everybody that knows somebody that works with news papers in your area should call the news paper and ask if they would be interested in placing an article in their paper. Hopefully front page with truth and exact facts. That will give BMW a lot of publicity. They might not like the type of publicity, but it will be the truth. BMW would want it in every paper in American and Canada if all of their bikes had finished without problems.

But I do love my RT,

 

Geez. And what exactly IS the truth? I've not seen a succinct statement of it yet.

[Lone_RT_rider]

My point was simple. BMW's are exotic motorcycles. Their world/national/regional sales numbers are comparatively small when stacked up against the major makes. With that decision to "go exotic" comes smaller R&D budgets, smaller manufacturing efforts, fewer dealers and a corresponding smaller support organization. It's simple math.

 

I think you nailed it here Steve. Not a lot of people realize that with increased volumes (or sales per year) comes increased budgets for not only better parts in the assembly, but also better production and assembly processes that include more automation and therefore higher quality over-all.

 

If you are selling 10,000 final drives a year, there is no way in heck you can justify a 500,000 dollar automation device to either set carrier bearing depths or gear lash. I would almost bet that they are doing this by hand using hand held gages that don't take audit data on an hourly basis. There is LOTS of room for human error in a low volume process such as this.

 

Shawn

[smiller]

Perhaps in order to avoid these annoying recurring threads we should simply establish a forum rule that no topic regarding BMW reliability can be discussed until all the data is in and a final determination has been made.

[ghaverkamp]

Perhaps in order to avoid these annoying recurring threads we should simply establish a forum rule that no topic regarding BMW reliability can be discussed until all the data is in and a final determination has been made.

 

We ought to just establish a rule that no post may reference a manufacturer or specific model. A side benefit would be collapsing the 4 line-specific forums into 1.

[motoguy128]

I would almost bet that they are doing this by hand using hand held gages that don't take audit data on an hourly basis. There is LOTS of room for human error in a low volume process such as this.

 

Shawn

 

Interesting point. The German are stubborn and sometimes arrogant in their thinking, but not stupid. I'd expect they are fully aware for the statistics (they are afterall paying to replacing the FD under warrantly in most cases). They may have examined the issue and decided that the cost to correct the problem, is too expensive to be justified or the problem is more complicated than we think, with a mixture of supplier problems, economies of scale, and internal company politics.

[russell_bynum]

I would almost bet that they are doing this by hand using hand held gages that don't take audit data on an hourly basis. There is LOTS of room for human error in a low volume process such as this.

 

Shawn

 

Interesting point. The German are stubborn and sometimes arrogant in their thinking, but not stupid. I'd expect they are fully aware for the statistics (they are afterall paying to replacing the FD under warrantly in most cases). They may have examined the issue and decided that the cost to correct the problem, is too expensive to be justified or the problem is more complicated than we think, with a mixture of supplier problems, economies of scale, and internal company politics.

 

And their sales keep going up because enough people don't know or care about the problem...so they'd be stupid to spend any time/money fixing it.

[motoguy128]

Yup, it's probably all by the numbers. Until customer and dealer surveys indicate the problem is having an impact on sales, they weill do nothing. Unfortunately if they reach that point, it might be too late. Look at Home Depot and their problems.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

No comment on the OP's topic... I have nothign of value to add.

 

That's where BMW loses my loyalty as a BMW owner. Owners "invested" in BMW equipment in good faith; BMW has not responded to these well documented issues in good faith, and they probably never will.

 

I want to live where you do. I've never owned a vehicle that wasn't an expense.

[outpost22]

I expect that most modern motorcycles should be able to go 11,000 miles without self-destructing.

 

Am I naiive in assuming that maybe these bikes weren't new, but had many accumulated high stress miles already? Or,are these all brand new bikes?

[russell_bynum]

I expect that most modern motorcycles should be able to go 11,000 miles without self-destructing.

 

Am I naiive in assuming that maybe these bikes weren't new, but had many accumulated high stress miles already? Or,are these all brand new bikes?

 

Usually it is somewhere in between. Starting the IBR with a bike that already has 120,000 miles on it is probably a bit on the risky side. But...you also can't just buy a bike, throw your accessories on it, and head out.

 

If I were doing it, I'd start with a slightly used bike (one of those that we always see in the classifieds..less than a year old 10,000 miles or less, and the owner is taking a financial bath on it.) and take a year developing the accessory systems and flushing out any problems on shorter shakedown rides like the Great Lakes Challenge, etc.

 

Disclaimer: That's just my opinion based on what I've seen. I'm not a distance rider. I don't have it in me to do it, and I don't enjoy that sort of thing anyway. My guess might be totally wrong.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I tried to stay out of this, I really tried, no go though.

 

I experienced a FD failure on my GS Adventure. 51K miles on it in 21 months. BMW replaced it, although it was well beyond warranty mileage, at no cost to me. They paid for everything. I was more than happy with their customer service and yes, I was on the road at the time. Between AAA+ RV and a very nice dealer, it cost me a couple of days of my trip. In all, no big deal.

 

The Iron Butt probably had nothing to do with the failures experienced. I know no details of the failures but I'd wager that it was not gears, not seals, not anything but a bearing failure. I'm working from memory here and don't really care to do the research with the limits of the search function here, but, just about every FD failure I can recall reading about has, in fact, been a failure of the crown gear carrier bearing. BMW has taken steps to remedy this problem. Change of the bearing specification sometime in '04, by which time the "new" FD was, I'm sure on the boards or computer screens in engineering.

 

The new drives seem to have a lower failure rate, overall, than the older design so we could consider that an improvement. I do think there is a flaw in the overall design of the single sided swingarm as implemented by BMW. I just think it is too small. Witness the Honda VFR with less weight and about the same power as a new RT. The carrier bearings are huge in comparison. I know, it is a chain drive but single sided none the less. The bearings are the size they are to handle the cornering loads. The BMW drive has to handle some minor thrust loads generated by the ring and pinion arrangement but, to my way of thinking, they could have used another method for that.

[Rob_______]

Have you cosidered size as an issue? I was just in Italy and most of the bikes I saw were 850 or smaller.

[Twisties]

Hey look, another FD thread with the same pontificators jumping all over it!

 

Jim

 

Just dying waiting to try out that flame suit aren't you

[Twisties]

A recall ain't likely to happen people. The best you can hope for is that BMW will replace a failed FD when it happens. Kawasaki did this with their Vulcan 1500 classics when they first came out in 96, 97 and I believe 98. Those model years used a plastic oil pump gear that was prone to failure at which time no oil was "pumped" resulting in some very nasty engine damage; seizures. If the gear failed, even if out of warranty, Kawasaki replaced it with a metal one and paid for any other damage associated with the failure; some received a total engine rebuild. Replacement of the oil pump gear was very labor intensive as the engine cases had to be split to replace the gear.

 

The Vulcan forum was all up in arms about it, exactly like what is happening here. I believe it was in 99 that Kawasaki changed to a metal oil pump gear in those models.

 

I believe that is the best we can expect. So just ride your bike, keep up on routine maintenance, and keep an eye on the FD.

 

As an aside: The K12R forums are all up in arms about trans failures......sometimes you just can't win!

 

I suspect that if BMW would acknowledge the problem, commit to replacement at the first sign of trouble instead of telling people to ride till it pukes, and officially extend the warranty we would all be crowing about how wonderful they are.

[2wheelterry]

I figure I have no control over BMW except how I spend my $. For me, another drivetrain related failure (one already) and I will purchase another brand. I plan to start my "next bike" savings fund in January. In the inerium I plan to ride the hell out of my bike, enjoy it and hopefully watch the savings fund accumulate.

[RBertalotto]

but like all things made by us humans they are prone to eventual failure

 

Suzuki V Stroms are made by God.....Six started, six finished with zero mechanical issues.......

 

It was stated that four of the top five finishers were BMW. I suggest this has nothing to do with the bikes. The top riders ARE top riders, regardless of what they are riding......Being they are TOP RIDERS, they choose BMW because they THINK they are superior...........

 

I also understand that that Harley was heavily modified and owned and supported by a Harley dealership?

[pokorskij]

To Jay, generally I would agree with you. However there is the possiblity that while the preventive maintenance is being performed the item that causes the failure is being introduced into the system. In this case doing non-recommended preventive maintenance is the problem.

 

Just as an example, and I will exaggerate to make the point, and I am not claiming this is happening, just that it could. What if every reported FD failure happenend only after some type of maintenace was performed after the factory assembled the bike. It could be possible that a surface is unintentionally damaged, the incorrect type or quantity of fluid is used, the seal is improperly installed, dirt or other contamination is introduced, etc. So as the manufacturer you could decide that it is better not to recommend servicing the FD, because there are no reported failures until after service has been performed. Or that failure rates increase substantially after maintenance is performed.

 

Now this would lead me to investigate why this is happenning and that there could be a problem with the design that service cannot be performed correctly without causing an increase in failures.

 

Also, this would lead me to a different overall solution to correct the problem, then if the failure rate was not affected by maintenance.

 

Again, before I get blasted for making this point, I am not claiming this is happening only that without complete knowledge and understanding there are many possibilities that need to be considered. And these types of forums do not generally have access to the necessary information to determine the real cause, and correct solution.

[SWB]

Now I am not saying that I agree with a company that does not attend to a problem if there is one. But ultimately that is a matter of 'style', 'ethics' and 'customer focus'. Unfortunately in this day and age there are only very FEW companies that still know the meaning of these words, European, American or otherwise. Period.

 

Agreed!

[Rocket_Cowboy]

I also understand that that Harley was heavily modified and owned and supported by a Harley dealership?

 

To be fair, it was a Harley Sportster and not one of the big touring bikes that Brett road in the IBR. Yes, Brett is related to Donahue HD in Minnesota, but it was still just him doing the ride.

 

What's telling to me is that Brett's Sportster let him down in '05, and yet he brought it back out in '07 to prove a point. Likewise, Jim Owen was left on the side of the road on his way back to Denver after effectively winning the '05 IBR on his 1150RT, and came back in '07 on a new 1200RT.

 

You're right on though that the top 10 finished in the top 10 because of who they are ... not what they rode.

 

As for age of the IBR vehicles, I can only speak of the few that I know. Most of the BMWs were acquired over the winter, and have been setup for the IBR all year. They've been run in a few rallies throughout the year to test the setup, then brought to the big dance. By comparison, the two Honda STs that I'm aware of were both 2004s, had over 100K on the clock, and had no fatal failures.

[DavidEBSmith]

Am I naiive in assuming that maybe these bikes weren't new, but had many accumulated high stress miles already? Or,are these all brand new bikes?

 

It's my understanding that Rob Nye's bike had about 18,000 miles on it when the rear drive failed. That should be long enough to get past infant mortality, well short of wearing out.

 

On the other hand, the times I rode, my bike had 70K, 100K, and 130K miles and nothing disabling broke during the rally.

[Jim VonBaden]

Hey look, another FD thread with the same pontificators jumping all over it!

 

Jim

 

And I see you've added your incredibly valuable input as usual. Thank God for that.

 

Someone has to balance BS with BS!

 

Jim

[SWB]

...So are you saying that EU riders have more clout?

Yes. 2006 US Sales Report (courtesy MCN) all numbers rounded

 

HD 28% (265,433)

Honda 24% (231,669)

Yamaha 18% (175,303)

Suzuki 14% (138,850)

Kawasaki 8% (78,879)

KTM 2% (22,243)

BMW 1% (13,575)

 

And how many of the 13,575 are bikes with FD designs in question? Let's assume 80% were (and I think that number is high). That's 10,860 U.S Bikes. I'd say the U.S. has no clout (btw, that's only 4% of the bikes that HD sold last year!)

 

Mike O

if BMW wants to sell more bikes and make more $ (isn't that what corps want to do? make more $) you would think they would look at those sales numbers and say alot of bikes are sold as a whole in the US per year and we need more of those sales. how many bikes as a whole are sold in EU? my point is how can a corp ignore a market (when it sells to it in the first place) when there is so much potential?

 

Well, it goes back to my comment about German's "not thinking like American's" (and Francis, I did not mean it as any kind of insult about "Euro-centric"). An American company with 1% penetration into a market would create whole new divisions, whole new product lines, and hire local nationals in marketing and management, all in an effort to improve their dismal showing (e.g. think "Ford").

 

Does anyone sense any particular sort of "angst" at BMW at the poor showing in the USA market? Their share could drop to 0% and BMW executives wouldn't lose a nights sleep (or one of six weeks vacation) worrying about it. I know this first hand working with a German software company. While Gates and Ellison were pledging high growth rates and tearing each other's hearts over margin, this German CEO said "we feel a stable 16% growth rate is a rational approach to the market; we don't see high growth rates as conducive to quality or stable products...". I was screaming with my jaw open, but no noise came out (i.e. the *@#$@$# IDIOT!).

 

Bill Gates and Larry Ellison grew and this German company became nothing.

 

Yeah, the Germans CAN and WILL ignore their US market share, the plight of the poor dealer owners who've invested a small fortune in marketing BMW, and the desires of a incredibly loyal group of enthusiasts who like the BMW product in general. That's who they are, and that's what they do.

 

I still love Beemers, but I'm not kidding myself. The solution to the FD problem is to buy another FD or have it rebuilt by an expert who can prevent a recurrence. The solution to a transmission spline problem are new splines. The solution to the probable metallurgical failure in my intermediate gear for my R1100RT was a transmission rebuild.

 

Now, I've paid the price, so I get to grip. THAT'S America. And now I'm going to go ride it, as soon as my @#$#@^ broken ankle is strong enough to support a 600 lb bike.

[Jim VonBaden]

Hey look, another FD thread with the same pontificators jumping all over it!

 

Jim

from your past posts you basicly are a true BMW diehard. bmw does no wrong and you love your bike to death. you've got your head in the sand. that's fine.

 

this however is a public forum. this thread is based on a statement that came out after the IBR and thus we're discussing that back and forth. that's what people do. i have my opnions and so do others. i have owned 2 bmws in the past and might own another if issues are sorted out with this company. i do like what bmw builds but i buy things are are done right.

 

we're all stating our opninions/facts/observations to gain clarity. your comment (and you like to do this in other posts i've read), on the other hand, basicly says you guys are wasting your time again with this useless chatter. i does nothing for the thread. my guess is you don't like people who don't agree with you.

 

I honestly couldn't care less if you, or the other pontificators agree with me, and I certainly don't bury my head in the sand, but I also don't barage the site with dozens of posts saying almost exactly the same thing on as many different threads as possible.

 

Does BMW have a problem? Most likely. Does pissing and moaning constantly on an internet forum fix it? Hardly.

 

You and Russell, and the others who seem to thrill at jumping at every single oportunity to add yet more useless whinning about the way overdone FD issue sure do seem threatened by me rolling my eyes at you!

 

I like my bike, and IF it breaks I fix my bike, and I certainly hope that the FD issue get's resolved, but whinning constantly about it on the internet sure isn't going to help any. Feel free to continue if it makes you feel better, but don't get all pissy on me if you don't like me adding MY two cents that disagree with you.

 

 

Jim

[riding4work]

but like all things made by us humans they are prone to eventual failure

 

Suzuki V Stroms are made by God.....Six started, six finished with zero mechanical issues.......

 

I DON'T NEED A NEW BIKE!

 

I DON'T NEED A NEW BIKE!

 

I DON'T NEED A NEW BIKE!

 

I DON'T NEED A NEW BIKE!

 

Anyone know of a good Suzuki dealer in So Cal?

[velomoto]

I DON'T NEED A NEW BIKE!

 

Anyone know of a good Suzuki dealer in So Cal?

Hmmmmm... Craigslist!!!

[Francois_Dumas]

(and Francis, I did not mean it as any kind of insult about "Euro-centric").

 

Scott, don't worry, no offense taken. I worked in a US company the last 20 years of my corporate career, and know what you mean. Just wanted to emphasize that no matter our experience and learning from each other, there still ARE huge differences in 'thinking' (and generalizing is always dangerous, I know) between US companies, and the rest of the world, AND between European companies (and people) depending on the country they are really based.

 

I was in charge of teams in 42 different countries, trying to make them do what our US bosses believed was best for the company....... hence my comment (with a chuckle)

[Geoff2]

...So are you saying that EU riders have more clout?

Yes. 2006 US Sales Report (courtesy MCN) all numbers rounded

 

HD 28% (265,433)

Honda 24% (231,669)

Yamaha 18% (175,303)

Suzuki 14% (138,850)

Kawasaki 8% (78,879)

KTM 2% (22,243)

BMW 1% (13,575)

 

And how many of the 13,575 are bikes with FD designs in question? Let's assume 80% were (and I think that number is high). That's 10,860 U.S Bikes. I'd say the U.S. has no clout (btw, that's only 4% of the bikes that HD sold last year!)

 

Mike O

 

Interesting figures. This thread appears to be about BMW and the perceived notion that they should do something about their FD failures, as all other manufacturers seem to sort their problems out. But do they really? Has Honda sorted out its wobble on the ST1300 or do they intend to? The answere is the same as BMW. I guess the numbers are not worth the worry.

[RBertalotto]

All "Customer Satisfaction" is totally about meeting customers expectations. You stop by the local hot dog vendor and buy a hot dog, your expectation isn't the same as a sit down steak dinner at the Four Seasons Hotel. Your only expectation when buying that hot dog is after you eat it, you won't die! If you are still among the living after eating it, you are a happy customer.

 

The same for anything we buy. The expectations I have for my Suzuki DL650 that I paid $6600 for are totally different than a $15K BMW. We all want to belive that BMW motorcycles are the best of the best, but we all know that as far as reliability, resale, service etc, this just isn't the case.....But somehow, in our minds, we rationalize the purchase, buy one and enjoy the experience.....for the most part.

 

Sure other brands have issues, and some of them MAJOR. (See 2001-2006 Honda VFR with undersized wiring that burns up at a moments notice. A whole cottage industry has sprung up to deal with it)And Honda totally rejects that there is an issue. But if you bring your bike in for service, and scream loud enough, they will replace the whole wiring harness for free (only to burn up again somewhere down the road)

The difference here is, there is a preemptive fix that you can perform for about $50. There is nothing you can do to prevent FD meltdown. And when it happens, we all know a mortgage will need to be secured to pay for the fix.

 

After owning five BMW motorcycles, my expectations have NEVER been met. Not at full list retail price. No way! I've owned and currently own many other bikes that perform in many ways better than my BMWs, and cost far less to own, buy and depreciate. My current BMW, a 2004 R1150R Rockster is a fantastic motorcycle. But I paid $6500 a few months ago. My expectation for success now rides on a $6500 purchase, not a $15,000 purchase. My expectations are lower.

But that said, would I ever head out on a two or three week motorcycle tour on a 1200 series R bike. No way Jose! I just don't trust em. But I also wouldn't head out on this ride on my Moto Guzzi or my Ducati. They just don't have an expectation of reliability. The last thing I want on a tour is a breakdown. Vacation time is too short!

 

My two V Stroms (the 2004 went 27K miles, including three, three week or more trips includiong Alaska, and my 2007 now has 14K on it including two multi thousand mile trips) And both of these bikes have had ZERO issues. Absolutely nothing to deal with. Change the oil and go. No throttle body sync because the engineers used some stupid piece of cable to activate the second throttle body (what the hell is BMW thinking on this one!), No surging that simply can not be removed (lots of BMW riders claim their bikes don't surge...Poor fellows, they only ride BMWs and the surging has become part of the ride...until I let them ride my V-Strom or Honda VFR....They alway return saying, "Wow, that's smooth, no bucking at low speeds!")But I must add, my 04 BMW doesn't surge at all (dual spark) and is quite smooth also.

No valve adjustements every 5-6K miles if you don't want your feet and hands to go to sleep from vibrations. (I never touched the valves on my V Strom in 27K miles and I just checked them on the VFR and after 16K miles, they are perfect)

Sure, My K1200RS was just about the best motorcycle I ever owned.....My expectations were extremely high, and that bike delivered...But at somewhere north of $15K. it should! Maintenance costs were nuts on that bike. A brake bleed was and tune up was 10% the cost of a V Strom!(too bad it totalled, I'd still have it, high cost and all)

The R bikes are a real ying and yang, the motorcyle lots of folks love and hate.............Nuff said.

[John in VA]

Does anyone sense any particular sort of "angst" at BMW at the poor showing in the USA market? Their share could drop to 0% and BMW executives wouldn't lose a nights sleep (or one of six weeks vacation) worrying about it...

 

Yeah, the Germans CAN and WILL ignore their US market share, the plight of the poor dealer owners who've invested a small fortune in marketing BMW, and the desires of a incredibly loyal group of enthusiasts who like the BMW product in general. That's who they are, and that's what they do.

 

BMW's Motorrad's company-wide pretax profits were $91 million on about $1.6 billion revenues in 2006. They sold about 13% of their 100,000 unit production in the USA, so the other 87% is sold elsewhere (or in Germany).

 

BMW traditionally seems not to be about marketshare but about profits and gross markup, like the car division. True, they're adding the F800 and Husky to expand their lineup (and the cars are adding the 1 series to the US), which should help dealers who have been limited to high-dollar bikes for so long, but BMW just wants to sell enough product to make a consistent profit, not crank 'em out in volume.

[Bud]

...So are you saying that EU riders have more clout?

Yes. 2006 US Sales Report (courtesy MCN) all numbers rounded

 

HD 28% (265,433)

Honda 24% (231,669)

Yamaha 18% (175,303)

Suzuki 14% (138,850)

Kawasaki 8% (78,879)

KTM 2% (22,243)

BMW 1% (13,575)

 

And how many of the 13,575 are bikes with FD designs in question? Let's assume 80% were (and I think that number is high). That's 10,860 U.S Bikes. I'd say the U.S. has no clout (btw, that's only 4% of the bikes that HD sold last year!)

 

Mike O

if BMW wants to sell more bikes and make more $ (isn't that what corps want to do? make more $) you would think they would look at those sales numbers and say alot of bikes are sold as a whole in the US per year and we need more of those sales. how many bikes as a whole are sold in EU? my point is how can a corp ignore a market (when it sells to it in the first place) when there is so much potential?

 

Bill,

 

Look at the many new BMW models introduced in the last 2 years. I think they are not ignoring the market and are trying to add market share. They state that they want "conquest" sales. i.e. Buyers who never owned BMW's before and the sale would result in one less for Honda, HD etc.

[OlGeezer]

 

In the automotive industry we deal with a term called PPM (parts per million) failure rate. Granted, 39 total bikes is not incredibly statistically significant, but is however in the realm of the sample size we would use for durability testing on most parts (30 peices normally). When we test these parts we back calculate the percentage of failed parts into PPM to get a feel for possible warranty issues. at 2 failures for 39 the PPM rate would be roughly 51,282.

 

Shawn

 

Shawn -

 

What does 108k miles on my FD crown bearing do to your analysis? Just like the silent majority, what about all of those FDs that have 100k miles on them (like mine had) that no one hears about?

[Twisties]

 

In the automotive industry we deal with a term called PPM (parts per million) failure rate. Granted, 39 total bikes is not incredibly statistically significant, but is however in the realm of the sample size we would use for durability testing on most parts (30 peices normally). When we test these parts we back calculate the percentage of failed parts into PPM to get a feel for possible warranty issues. at 2 failures for 39 the PPM rate would be roughly 51,282.

 

Shawn

 

Shawn -

 

What does 108k miles on my FD crown bearing do to your analysis? Just like the silent majority, what about all of those FDs that have 100k miles on them (like mine had) that no one hears about?

 

What does a cold day do to Global Warming Theory? What does a child looking like her mother do to evolution theory? What does newly formed lava mean for the age of the earth?

[Twisties]

 

In the automotive industry we deal with a term called PPM (parts per million) failure rate. Granted, 39 total bikes is not incredibly statistically significant, but is however in the realm of the sample size we would use for durability testing on most parts (30 peices normally). When we test these parts we back calculate the percentage of failed parts into PPM to get a feel for possible warranty issues. at 2 failures for 39 the PPM rate would be roughly 51,282.

 

Shawn

 

Shawn -

 

What does 108k miles on my FD crown bearing do to your analysis? Just like the silent majority, what about all of those FDs that have 100k miles on them (like mine had) that no one hears about?

 

What does a cold day do to Global Warming Theory? What does a child looking like her mother do to evolution theory? What does newly formed lava mean for the age of the earth?

 

Let me apologize, I shouldn't have been so brusque. The fact is however Shawn's math (not theory) simply expresses the results of the IBR (and some say there were 4 FD failures at this event?) in automotive industry quality control terms. His point, I believe is that the rate is very high in those terms. Still, Shawn's math, and the simple math you could do on your own, all work to the same thing: 2 in 39 roughly equals 5%. That's it. This estimate is consistent with all the other threads on this site and others where people opine that the premature FD failure is somewhere in the low percent range. That is, dare I say it, a consensus. Certainly nobody has suggested the failure rate is anywhere near a majority.

 

So, if the predicted failure rate is a few percent, then theory clearly predicts that the vast majority of bikes will not experience a failure. In other words, both observations: Yours that your bike and the majority of bikes have no problem, and Shawn's (and many more of us) that the low percent failure rate is high by various benchmarks and our expectations, are both correct and consistent with the observations. Therefore the answer to your question is: No effect whatsoever.

 

I was brusque because we have had so many threads and so many discussions of the failure rate that I forget some people may not have seen all that. Please accept my apology.

 

Jan

[Yukon]

I've owned and currently own many other bikes that perform in many ways better than my BMWs, and cost far less to own, buy and depreciate. My current BMW, a 2004 R1150R Rockster is a fantastic motorcycle. But I paid $6500 a few months ago. My expectation for success now rides on a $6500 purchase, not a $15,000 purchase. My expectations are lower.

But that said, would I ever head out on a two or three week motorcycle tour on a 1200 series R bike. No way Jose! I just don't trust em. But I also wouldn't head out on this ride on my Moto Guzzi or my Ducati. They just don't have an expectation of reliability. The last thing I want on a tour is a breakdown. Vacation time is too short!

 

My two V Stroms (the 2004 went 27K miles, including three, three week or more trips includiong Alaska, and my 2007 now has 14K on it including two multi thousand mile trips) And both of these bikes have had ZERO issues. Absolutely nothing to deal with. Change the oil and go...<snip>

yada, yada, yada

 

C'mon, I'm a member of the V-Strom rapid forum just like you. Don't sit there and imply the V-Strom has no issues...at least with a straight face. I invite anyone interested to check it out at http://11109.rapidforum.com/area=97 and you will find just as many problems with the V-Strom as any other bike. Surge? Oh, yeah. Sensitive to throttle body sync? You betcha. Drive sprocket mis-alignment? How many mm was that? 2? I can't recall. Yeah, I rode mine thousands of miles too, no problems. Just as thousands of BMW riders have ridden their motors for thousands of miles too with no problems.

[Yukon]

 

In the automotive industry we deal with a term called PPM (parts per million) failure rate. Granted, 39 total bikes is not incredibly statistically significant, but is however in the realm of the sample size we would use for durability testing on most parts (30 peices normally). When we test these parts we back calculate the percentage of failed parts into PPM to get a feel for possible warranty issues. at 2 failures for 39 the PPM rate would be roughly 51,282.

 

Shawn

 

Shawn -

 

What does 108k miles on my FD crown bearing do to your analysis? Just like the silent majority, what about all of those FDs that have 100k miles on them (like mine had) that no one hears about?

 

YOU TELL EM BRO!!

[Lawman]

The fact that some do not fail tells me that if part quality is good enough and assembly is good enough then they can work satisfactorily but the fact that some work tells me nothing about those that fail...

[Yukon]

The fact that some do not fail tells me that if part quality is good enough and assembly is good enough then they can work satisfactorily but the fact that some work tells me nothing about those that fail...

 

Does it really matter "why"? Will knowing "why" prevent a failure? Why not just ride, maintain it correctly and if it breaks fix it?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

10 pages of griping, excuses, speculation, blah, blah, blah.

 

What are you going to do about it?

 

Most currently own a BMW. Are you gonna sell it? BMW doesn't care, they already have the money from your bike.

 

For those contemplating a purchase, are you gonna buy something else? BMW probably cares a little bit but, there sales are steadily increasing so your one decision won't be missed all that much.

 

So tell me, what are you gonna do?

[Lawman]

10 pages of griping, excuses, speculation, blah, blah, blah.

 

What are you going to do about it?

 

Most currently own a BMW. Are you gonna sell it? BMW doesn't care, they already have the money from your bike.

 

For those contemplating a purchase, are you gonna buy something else? BMW probably cares a little bit but, there sales are steadily increasing so your one decision won't be missed all that much.

 

So tell me, what are you gonna do?

 

My best guess is I'm gonna ride mine til I crash it.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Good plan, guy.

Advise to be taken to heart.

Hope you just wear it out though.

[OlGeezer]

 

I was brusque because we have had so many threads and so many discussions of the failure rate that I forget some people may not have seen all that. Please accept my apology.

 

Jan

 

Accepted.

 

What rankles me is that so many are so quick to come to a conclusion with so little data. I've not read all the threads on the subject, but enough to be bored by the subject. I find two things annoying:

1. Coming to the conclusion that one has adequate data with three failures on 17 machines (new FD design) in an 11,000 mile event.

2. Thinking that ranting about it on a forum is somehow going to change things.

 

In my "world" I only personally know of a few FD failures on R models; a couple on K12LTs. All have been fairly high mileage. Even so, the cost of the repair was preferred (to me) rather than having a chain.

 

What happened to the alternator belt rant threads? Belts are still breaking, but I don't read nearly as much about them as I used to. What about surging? Boxers will still surge if not tuned properly. I'm not saying this applies to you, but I believe that some have an ulterior motive with their rants, either they've had a particularly bad experience or something similar.

 

Now, if the actual failure rate (over the entire population) is 5% at a relatively low mileage, then I agree; it's a problem. Still, ranting about it won't change a thing. The best thing that could happen is that a couple of engineers get together with a couple of machinists, they come up with a Superior Solution and then offer them at a reasonable price to the members of this list. THEN, all the ranting will be worth it. BTW, stuff like this happens all the time, as I'm sure you know.

 

Regards,

[KMG_365]

The fact that some do not fail tells me that if part quality is good enough and assembly is good enough then they can work satisfactorily but the fact that some work tells me nothing about those that fail...

 

Does it really matter "why"? Will knowing "why" prevent a failure? Why not just ride, maintain it correctly and if it breaks fix it?

Knowing you got the one good bearing vs the known "bad one" explains the "why" in our case (the main seal on Leslie's '02 went at 38K miles and the rear bearing was replaced at that time with the same 19-ball bearing, my 2003 cratered at 86K miles and later I replaced Leslie's "new" 19-ball bearing with a "newer" 17-ball bearing at 120k miles preventively. Interestingly, rear wheel (final drive/crown) bearings are supposedly a "wear item" that are supposed to be checked regularly and replaced as needed . . . I'm just sayin' . . . .

[OlGeezer]

And when it happens, we all know a mortgage will need to be secured to pay for the fix.

 

Sorry, but that's a rediculous statement.

[OlGeezer]

The fact that some do not fail

 

That's "most", not "some"