Painful indictment against BMW after the IBR

[JayW]

"A disproportionate number of the DNFs fall on the shoulders of BMW. BMW failed several riders, demonstrating that they are no longer capable of building motorcycles that can run 11,000 miles in 11 days without a significant fraction experiencing a catastrophic drivetrain failure of some sort. BMW of North America has requested contact information for the riders who experienced failures. The riders BMW should be more concerned about are the thousands of unsuspecting souls who will breakdown in the future because the company has lost its previous ability to either design durable drivetrain components or (more likely) adequately monitor production and assembly quality. It's way, way past time for BMW to fix its drivetrain reliability problems. A good start might be to acknowledge that there is a problem."

 

These are the words of Tom Austin written in his epilogue from the IBR that just finished. It saddens me to read this, but the evidence is compelling and I must agree with him. I want to be proud of the quality and workmanship of my BMW, but do so is a stretch after reading of all the mechanical failures BMW riders were cursed with during this rally. I am sure the negative publicity has commanded the attention of the highest level executives at BMW, and I anxiously await their response.

 

We all make mistakes. My pastor once told me that when I have really screwed up and am not sure about the next course of action, then always do the next right thing. I'm not sure what that is for BMW, but this is an excellent suggestion for them to heed as well.

 

Jay

[JamesW]

Well Jay, that is a melodramatic statement if ever I heard one. I have been reading these threads concerning FD failures with some interest and I really think it premature to hang BMW out to dry at this point. I read an interesting post the other day that brought up the question could a final drive maybe have blown an oil seal that maybe went un-noticed by the rider in his pursuit of doing back to back thousand mile days? If this happened I can see how a dry FD in the IBR could easily have self destructed. This may not account for all the failures but I bet it could easily account for one and maybe two point is we just don't know. Then there are people that don't pay attention to routine maintenance and even put oils in their FDs that aren't even the recommended weight. Any manufacturer can get a bad lot of bearings or seals from a supplier. S__t just happens. Point I make is BMW makes motorcycles that are fantastic machines in every way but like all things made by us humans they are prone to eventual failure, just the way it is. Let's give BMW a chance and after all it's just a motorcycle. Alright, maybe an expensive MC

[DaveTheAffable]

<snip>

"It's way, way past time for BMW to fix its drivetrain reliability problems. A good start might be to acknowledge that there is a problem."

<snip>

I am sure the negative publicity has commanded the attention of the highest level executives at BMW, and I anxiously await their response.

 

I'm commenting in GENERAL... not saying just BMW specifically... Corporations deal with the easiest way to generate new, or replace lost, revenue.

 

If poor product design causes a drop in sales, many times the solution is to increase marketing and look for new customers! That may be a cheaper way to replace lost revenue than product redesign and recall.

 

In some cases (NOT suggesting this here...) the only way for the existing victims of a bad design is class action. The only way the corporation can minimize their losses is to fight it, or settle it.

 

Look at the recall on BMW fuel line disconnects. The dealer replaces them if they are leaking. Not before. So you have to have a fuel leak and potential fire BEFORE they replace it. When they do, BMWNA tells the dealer to replace it with the exact same plastic part number that consistently fails, even though BMW's source for the fuel disconnect makes the same part in chrome plated brass for a few dollars more.(Not the dealers fault that this is BMWNA's solution).

 

I don't have an itch for litigation, but with a little research and a good lawyer, I'll bet the first person who's bike burns up and / or they are injured... something MIGHT be done.

 

We can be unhappy about it, and disappointed, but at the end of the day this behavior is CONSISTENT across all automobile and motorcycle manufacturers. I'm not being cynical, but we pick our poison. Some from a more informed position than others unfortunately.

 

Kinna sad.

 

P.S. - I love my bike!

[russell_bynum]

I read an interesting post the other day that brought up the question could a final drive maybe have blown an oil seal that maybe went un-noticed by the rider in his pursuit of doing back to back thousand mile days?

 

Does it matter?

 

If the Final drive failed despite the rider following proper recommended maintenance, then that's a problem.

 

 

Then there are people that don't pay attention to routine maintenance and even put oils in their FDs that aren't even the recommended weight.

 

Sure...but all of the people who I know personally who's final drive failed despite them following recommended maintenance intervals and oil type/weight/etc.

 

 

Any manufacturer can get a bad lot of bearings or seals from a supplier. S__t just happens.

 

Absolutely. 100%

 

If this was a one-time thing, I'd be 100% with you.

 

I've been around BMW motorcycles for 7 years and the drivetrain has always been the most common source of the failures that I've heard of.

 

If this was one screwy thing caused by one batch of bad parts, that's one thing. They got a bad batch of bearings, their manufacturing process changed slightly without them reecognizing the ramifications, etc. Totally understandable. This has been going on, to various degrees for at least 7 years that I know of.

 

 

Point I make is BMW makes motorcycles that are fantastic machines in every way but like all things made by us humans they are prone to eventual failure, just the way it is.

 

I disagree. I think BMW makes absolutely freaking incredible bikes. But they're not "fantastic in every way" because drivetrain failure is so common and has been going on so long that it has become a standard joke within the community.

 

Let's give BMW a chance and after all it's just a motorcycle. Alright, maybe an expensive MC

 

Is 7 years enough of a chance? Yes...all makes have problems. How long did it take Honda to fix the frame cracking problem on the GL1800's?

[edge51]

Got to agree with Russel here - sorry Nando - BMW has a real problem on its hands. What is the chance that 4 out 39 bikes would experience the same problem ??

[ghaverkamp]

Got to agree with Russel here - sorry Nando - BMW has a real problem on its hands. What is the chance that 4 out 39 bikes would experience the same problem ??

 

Because no one knows anything about failure rate, especially on the Hexheads, no one can tell you what the chances are. What's more, we don't know that the bikes that failed experienced the same problem. There may be a widespread problem, but it seems very clear that no one on this discussion board knows if there is, and no one here knows anything about the rate.

[russell_bynum]

Got to agree with Russel here - sorry Nando - BMW has a real problem on its hands. What is the chance that 4 out 39 bikes would experience the same problem ??

 

Because no one knows anything about failure rate, especially on the Hexheads, no one can tell you what the chances are. What's more, we don't know that the bikes that failed experienced the same problem. There may be a widespread problem, but it seems very clear that no one on this discussion board knows if there is, and no one here knows anything about the rate.

 

Agreed. I most certainly do not have good data on this regarding failure rates, and what failed.

 

But...either I know the most unlucky BMW owners in the world, or there's a problem.

 

That said...(And I've said this many times before)...I wouldn't hesitate to jump on Lisa's R1100RS and take off across the country. I wouldn't worry about the final drive...I'd just go.

 

I think some people are over-reacting...freaking out, affraid to ride their bikes, etc. That's not reasonable (IMO). But this just seems way to common in my opinion.. I'd LOVE to see good data on the subject, but lacking that, I can only go on my personal experience. And my personal experience is with a failed final drive on my RT at ~28K, and quite a few friends who's final drive failed at a mileage that I would call premature. FYI, I would say anything less than 100K is premature. Honestly, I think a part like this should be good for 250-300K, but I'm willing to "dumb down" my expectation to 100K.

[JohnBeaven]

4 out 39 bikes would experience the same problem

 

The IBR results spreadsheet states that 2 DNF'ed due to final drive problems; 1 transmission failure; 2 crashed; 1 with tyre probelms; 1 electrical/accessory problem; 1 bike swap problem(?); and 3 did not state a reason for the DNF.

[SWB]

I am sure the negative publicity has commanded the attention of the highest level executives at BMW, and I anxiously await their response.

 

Not one frigging possible chance. BMW absolutely won't respond. Guys, one thing you need to remember, and I hate to open up a can of semi-political worms, but the Germans are Euro-centric Socialists. They aren't going to respond to "market forces" as American companies do, and they sure as heck won't listen to a bunch of Americans criticize their technology. You can marshal all the evidence in the world and start a campaign to influence BMW, but it's like water off a duck's back.

 

Let's give BMW a chance and after all it's just a motorcycle.

 

Your argument is entirely reasonable, but unfortunately, BMW is not. And, you're late to the party. I've seen really well documented, well engineered solutions by BMW enthusiasts on this forum, taken that same research and documentation to BMW, and ... NOTHING. I've seen a couple of dealers take keen interest, because either they are just damn good mechanics or self-interested in keeping their clients happy, but after the Director of Customer Service for BMW North America played "happy feet" for me, that was all "BMW" as a manufacturer did.

 

...but at the end of the day this behavior is CONSISTENT across all automobile and motorcycle manufacturers...

 

Well, maybe. However, I used to support a German software company, and have been involved enough in German culture to understand how the post-WWII Germans think. They do not think like American's. What's "obviously" in BMW's best interest is only obvious from an American perspective. BMW as a German company really, honestly, does not care what it's American customers think about their technology. They really are not interested in expanding market share, or going head-to-head with Honda. As long as BMW has German customers willing to buy their products, they're happy.

 

"Because no one knows anything about failure rate, especially on the Hexheads, no one can tell you what the chances are. What's more, we don't know that the bikes that failed experienced the same problem. There may be a widespread problem, but it seems very clear that no one on this discussion board knows if there is, and no one here knows anything about the rate. "

 

TOUCHE! Gold star my friend, and that does not exonerate BMW; it indicts BMW. We cannot know the true incidence of failure, but BMW supports the logistics of its bikes. I guarantee that it has the warranty information and parts failure information methodically stored and analyzed. They know EXACTLY which parts fail first, and how often. And we know what BMW does with this information: Make more replacement parts and jack up the prices to raise margin (obviously, BMW has SOME American's working for them).

 

It's not totally true that we have no idea of the incidence of failure, since BMW enthusiasts on this forum have conducted informal surveys.

 

BMW has no excuse not to know about failure rates on the equipment it sells, and no excuse for not addressing the problems to BMW owners.

 

That's where BMW loses my loyalty as a BMW owner. Owners "invested" in BMW equipment in good faith; BMW has not responded to these well documented issues in good faith, and they probably never will.

[Francois_Dumas]

Quote : ....... They do not think like American's......

 

Correct. Wake up; except for Americans nobody does

 

I think BMW, like ANY company, big or small, ultimately DOES operate according to market forces, or they go broke. That's one of the reasons they made this ghastly MX5 !

 

However some people here seem to forget that in this particular case (European motorcycles) the US is NOT the center of the universe and BMW's prime markets (and hence interests) lay elsewhere.

 

Now I am not saying that I agree with a company that does not attend to a problem if there is one. But ultimately that is a matter of 'style', 'ethics' and 'customer focus'. Unfortunately in this day and age there are only very FEW companies that still know the meaning of these words, European, American or otherwise. Period.

[Lone_RT_rider]

4 out 39 bikes would experience the same problem

 

The IBR results spreadsheet states that 2 DNF'ed due to final drive problems; 1 transmission failure; 2 crashed; 1 with tyre probelms; 1 electrical/accessory problem; 1 bike swap problem(?); and 3 did not state a reason for the DNF.

 

In the automotive industry we deal with a term called PPM (parts per million) failure rate. Granted, 39 total bikes is not incredibly statistically significant, but is however in the realm of the sample size we would use for durability testing on most parts (30 peices normally). When we test these parts we back calculate the percentage of failed parts into PPM to get a feel for possible warranty issues. at 2 failures for 39 the PPM rate would be roughly 51,282. That in itself would cause a major redesign with full FEA being done before this part ever made it to production. If I was design responsible for this part, I would be very worried come time for my next review.

 

Shawn

[steve.foote]

Jay, I'm not replying to you specifically, but to the thread in general.

 

The only way BMW will be able to end mechanical failure, or make it fall within the perceived acceptable range, is to dump the single-sided swing arm design, the shaft drive, the paralever and telelever, engine electronics, CAMbus, ABS, and a probably some things I don't even know about. But, then you are back to riding a Suzondayamasaki.

 

Let's face it, BMW is an exotic bike. You simply can't compare BMW, Ducati, Guzzi, MV Agusta, Aprilia, Triumph, KTM, etc to Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki. Though the Japanese bikes beat the others hands down in the reliability category, they ain't got no soul! I can't remember a time where I was staring, longingly, at any Japanese bike, yet I can remember the exact time and place the first time I saw the 1150RT, or an MV Agusta, or the new Aprilia SM, or the Duc 1098, etc.

 

It's all about choices. We live with the choices we make. If you need absolute reliability, get a honda. But, if you want something which tugs at your inner kid, get something exotic and live with it's idiosyncrasies.

[Francois_Dumas]

Shawn, wouldn't you also take the 'average' yearly mileage or usage in consideration with such estimates? The average BMW will do 10.000 miles in a year, not in 10 days. The IBF is pretty skewed if you ask me... like comparing wear and tear on a Formual 1 engine to its civil counterparts?

 

Just a thought.

[Dietrich]

SWB, when you call Germans, especially Germans in the context of BMW "Euro centric Socialists" you are showing a misunderstanding of German industrial thinking and are devalueing the rest of your statements, (and of course opening up a big can of worms) . American thinking sure is different and adjusting to market trends has been really well demonstrated by GM, Ford and Chrysler to name just a few. It was said here before that the US is not the centre of the universe for BMW motorcycles.

Having just come back from a European motorcycle vacation I have experienced a totally different level of enthusiasm in this sport/pasttime than here.

[JayW]

The only way BMW will be able to end mechanical failure, or make it fall within the perceived acceptable range, is to dump the single-sided swing arm design...

 

Maybe not. History is replete with examples of seemingly impossible mechanical problems solved by brilliant engineering.

 

What do I think BMW should do?

1. Offer free FD inspections to any late model BMW owner who is worried about this issue. Also FD inspections should be done routinely when bikes come in for routine service.

2. Extend the FD warranty to 100,000 miles or 10 years.

3. Put their best engineers to the task of designing a tougher FD and get lots of them in dealer parts departments ASAP.

 

To me, this would be an example of the next right thing for BMWNA to do.

 

Jay

[flars]

I feel that Tom has done a bad thing with his diatribe about BMW in his final IBR report. Throughout the rally, he constantly sniped at the BMWs, and I think that detracted from his 'daily' reports.

That said - what do you (collectively) expect BMW to do about the FD failures? They changed the FD in 2005 after they had a spate of failures on their old design (and no, I am NOT saying they changed the design in an effort to fix a problem they had discovered and were keeping secret). I would have to assume that their testing did not show up any problem before they released the new bikes - just like they tested the old design before releasing it. True, that may be a false assumption, but it would be difficult to believe they intentionally released a flawed design. So it looks like they missed the mark with their change OR there is an assembly problem (remember the seal leaks that were caused by bad assembly mechanisms?) OR they have a bearing/seal/oring/lock washer defect. The engineers will hopefully be able to tell something about what caused the failures and make a change to fix it on bikes they haven't assembled yet. And maybe they will figure out exactly what went wrong and get a remedial fix out. No one can say what BMW will do. But according to Tom, BMW wants to contact the owners of the failed FDs.

Anybody who cites Honda's response to the frame cracks as an example of a good corporate response is correct. They found a problem. They issued a recall. They fixed the bad welds. It took the dealer 30 seconds per bike to determine if there was a potentially bad weld. Five minutes to fix it (okay, I don't know how long it really took, but it was very quick to fix). But to say that BMW should issue a similar recall to have the FD disassembled in case there MIGHT be a bad seal or bearing or whatever in there is ludicrous. How long do you think that would take a shop mechanic? Ain't gonna happen. Not even if BMW determines what the problem really is. Not unless they can narrow it down to a specific VIN range, and maybe not even then if their determination is that the chances of failure on the known VIN range is small.

[Lone_RT_rider]

Shawn, wouldn't you also take the 'average' yearly mileage or usage in consideration with such estimates? The average BMW will do 10.000 miles in a year, not in 10 days.

 

Actually Francios, the IBR is fairly representative of how most Design Validation (DV) and Process Validation (PV) testing is done in the Automotive Industry. We instrument a vehicle with accelerometers to measure the forces a part sees during its use in extreme situations on a test track and save that into a "Road load file" that can be used later to replicate those forces on what we call a shaker table. Once we take this data, we determine what part of a total vehicle life cycle that data represents. Most automotive vehicles have in the past been designed to 10 yrs/150,000 miles as a standard life cycle.

 

So, with that data, we take the part and run it through the program on the shaker table multiple times to fully represent at least one life cycle. That is actually just a starting point. Depending on the number of parts you run (statistical significance) you also want to run more than one life cycle to get a reliability and confidence level that represents real life. For example, if I ran 6 parts on the shaker table using road load data, I would want to run a minimum of 2.7 vehicle lives to increase my reliability and confidence level to 95%. Just for reference, the acceptable R/C (reliability/confidence) level is 90%.

 

One thing I didnt mention in my response above and I need to clarify is the fact that Design Validation usually comes before any (or most) parts are ever made on production tooling. It's usually just done to get a feel of how the design is going to work before big money is spent on production tooling. Given the cut-backs in spending and the emphasis on reducing lead times to production, most sample sizes of DV testing are actually 6 pieces. Sample sizes of 30 (or more) pieces are not normally used until the parts are made off production tooling and run on PV testing.

 

Ok... anyone still awake? LOL... Now you understand why I don't discuss my job on the board all that much....

 

Shawn

[Twisties]

Quote : ....... They do not think like American's......

 

Correct. Wake up; except for Americans nobody does

 

I think BMW, like ANY company, big or small, ultimately DOES operate according to market forces, or they go broke. That's one of the reasons they made this ghastly MX5 !

 

However some people here seem to forget that in this particular case (European motorcycles) the US is NOT the center of the universe and BMW's prime markets (and hence interests) lay elsewhere.

 

Now I am not saying that I agree with a company that does not attend to a problem if there is one. But ultimately that is a matter of 'style', 'ethics' and 'customer focus'. Unfortunately in this day and age there are only very FEW companies that still know the meaning of these words, European, American or otherwise. Period.

 

So are you saying that EU riders have more clout? What do they think about this issue? What boards are the EU riders on? Are the EU riders going to take issue with BMW?

[Wooster]

Quote : ....... They do not think like American's......

 

Correct. Wake up; except for Americans nobody does

 

While I've no FD axe to grind, I agree that my country's strengths and weaknesses are not readily replicated elsewhere.

 

Wooster

 

Oh yah, no intention to bash or boast; rather, support for the "where you stand depends mostly on where you sit".

[Mike O]

...So are you saying that EU riders have more clout?

Yes. 2006 US Sales Report (courtesy MCN) all numbers rounded

 

HD 28% (265,433)

Honda 24% (231,669)

Yamaha 18% (175,303)

Suzuki 14% (138,850)

Kawasaki 8% (78,879)

KTM 2% (22,243)

BMW 1% (13,575)

 

And how many of the 13,575 are bikes with FD designs in question? Let's assume 80% were (and I think that number is high). That's 10,860 U.S Bikes. I'd say the U.S. has no clout (btw, that's only 4% of the bikes that HD sold last year!)

 

Mike O

[David]

I've been around for a number of years, and it seems like we move from one OCD fixation to another. It made me think of this oft-used graphic.

 

It's not as if there's no issue here, but it seems like internet discussion boards must swing from one hot issue to the next. If a visitor dropped in here, you couldn't blame them for thinking that 86% of the final drives were failing.

 

So, we'll have another 200 freakin' threads on this in the next year and then we'll move onto something else.

[hopz]

There are a lot of issues on the table. Let me chip in with some thoughts- I will try to eliminate the excess verbage.

 

I think BMW has a problem.

 

It is not just the FD mechanical problem, but the public relations problem. BMW makes bikes for the world market. The USA is a pretty darn big part of the world market.

 

If the FD failures are limited to the USA market I would be really surprised.

 

The FD issues are far beyond the R12's. I know the K-bikes have it too. It is also not a recent thing. Goes back at least to the 1997. And, by the way, the comment about owners not paying attention to the FD's with improper lubrication is also suspect. Last time I read... the 05 and later FD was supposed to be maintenance-free.

 

The IBR is a valid sample as far as I am concerned. Sure, they do 11k miles in 11 days, so what. Seems to me that is the same (mechanically) as 11k miles in several years. The bikes are no more tired at the end of the thousand mile day day than they would be at the end of the thousand mile year. The people are a different matter. It also seems to me that the IBR riders are not typical owners. I would argue they pay more attention to their bikes than the average user does.

 

As for the IBR scribe's focus on the issue. I am glad he did. It was done with humor and yet got the point across. I think it was/is a valid point. If he had a bias on the issue BMW certainly gave him ammunition to work with.

 

The argument that BMW's are exotic machines and we ought to just concede that high failure rates are ok because we made the decision to buy them is just bunk. BMW's are not exotic machines. They were made for a world market and ought to serve that market or suffer the consequence in the market place.

 

I lived in Germany for 3 years. BMW and Mercedes both are much less exotic there than here. The marketing is the major difference. Same machine.

 

My bottom line is that BMW had better do something. It is only going to get worse over time. The marketplace will respond. I was at the local dealership last week. A lot of people were talking about this. I was the only one who is a regular user of this forum. If there are 10 people who discuss the issue and only 1 in 10 is a sporttouring forum person then the larger concerned population is growing pretty big.

 

Like I said before- the company has a problem and it is more than the Final Drives.

[roadrider3]

Well I originally bought my BMW thinking this was a machine I could ride long distances and for a very long time without serious problems. I love the looks and feel of my 06 RT. Maintenance is easy and valve adjustments are a breeze.

The gripping here about these bikes breaking down everytime one goes for a ride is making me seriously think of switching over to the new Concours 14. Maintenance there will be easy except for valve adjustment, and maybe every one of there FD'S will not fail.

It seema to me that everyone here is so concerned with what goes wrong on a bike and not what goes right, you guys and gals are like the media, what bad news can we report today. How about changing you focus and report about the good times you have on your ride. I am not a HD fan and lord knows they have problems, my friends has not run right for more than a month in the last 3 years but these riders love their bikes and keep on talking positively about them. I think this evening I will go look at a new Kawasaki!

[Bob Palin]

How about changing you focus and report about the good times you have on your ride.

Plenty of people report on the good times they've had with their bikes in the Ride Tales forum (though there is definitely room for more to do so)

[Francois_Dumas]

 

So are you saying that EU riders have more clout? What do they think about this issue? What boards are the EU riders on? Are the EU riders going to take issue with BMW?

 

That's a hesitant 'yes'.

Hesitant because there IS no such thing as an 'EU rider'. No matter what politicians and press may want you to believe we're still pretty much a collection of 20-something VERY different countries, cultures and a lot of languages. Make that different markets too!

 

I am fortunate in that I can read many of those languages and so visit different forums here and there. And can make up my 'European' mind that way.

 

What I see so far is that there IS no 'issue' as such (as stated in the OP's message), or in any case not perceived as such. There are incidents, sure, but not a 'wave' of FD protests.

 

Remember the 'brakes issue'? Brought to the world by one very outspoken person with a lot of tenacity?

 

I think if there really was a major issue, we'd hear about it in the dozens of motorcycling magazines and other press, and of course on the many club forums.

[Francois_Dumas]

Well I originally bought my BMW thinking this was a machine I could ride long distances and for a very long time without serious problems. I love the looks and feel of my 06 RT. Maintenance is easy and valve adjustments are a breeze.

The gripping here about these bikes breaking down everytime one goes for a ride is making me seriously think of switching over to the new Concours 14. Maintenance there will be easy except for valve adjustment, and maybe every one of there FD'S will not fail.

It seema to me that everyone here is so concerned with what goes wrong on a bike and not what goes right, you guys and gals are like the media, what bad news can we report today. How about changing you focus and report about the good times you have on your ride. I am not a HD fan and lord knows they have problems, my friends has not run right for more than a month in the last 3 years but these riders love their bikes and keep on talking positively about them. I think this evening I will go look at a new Kawasaki!

 

Excuse me, perhaps I misunderstood the jest of your statement, but methinks you let yourself negatively influenced by a handful of naysayers. I don't see BMW having any more problems than any other major brand of motorcycles and cars (technically) and AFAIK they are not (nor have been) half as much in trouble economically as many others either.

 

It's an expensive brand, with (perhaps too) expensive marketing and a very 'visible' presence, still sporting the image of 'exclusivity' (which is overrated, and certainly not the case in Europe).

 

I'd be happily purring along the long distances on your Beemer if I were you... I know I am

[motoguy128]

I skimmed the posts, and it seems to get overlooked that 4 or the 5 top finishers were on BMW's including the winner on a R1200GSA. A Harley was the other top 5... also considered ot be unreliable. So the 2 least reliable makes, made up ALL of the top finishers. The Hondas and Yamahas were Also-rans further down the list.

 

I think it's a testimate to the long distance capability and an endorsement of it's performance by hard-core endurance riders. Even if it is a less than perfect machine that could use some mechanical or quality control improvements, whichever is the root cause.

 

I think some or our expectations come from the ability of modern cars to run almost flawlessly and rarely leave us stranded (we can thank the Japanesse for this). Bikes due to their compactness and requirements, still seem to be a generation behind the curve.

[HexHead]

I read an interesting post the other day that brought up the question could a final drive maybe have blown an oil seal that maybe went un-noticed by the rider in his pursuit of doing back to back thousand mile days?

 

Does it matter?

 

If the Final drive failed despite the rider following proper recommended maintenance, then that's a problem.

 

 

Then there are people that don't pay attention to routine maintenance and even put oils in their FDs that aren't even the recommended weight.

 

Sure...but all of the people who I know personally who's final drive failed despite them following recommended maintenance intervals and oil type/weight/etc.

 

Again, I need to wonder about this. BMW says the FD is maintenance free. Many here feel they know better than the engineers that designed the bike and change their FD fluid at regular intervals. FD fails, is this really BMW's fault?

[JayW]

Again, I need to wonder about this. BMW says the FD is maintenance free. Many here feel they know better than the engineers that designed the bike and change their FD fluid at regular intervals. FD fails, is this really BMW's fault?

 

I don't understand this position. Provided the proper volume and type of lubricant used, then changing the FD fluid more often than required is not going to make it fail. In fact it will likely prolong the life of the unit.

 

Jay

[Volfan615]

Here is a link to a thread over on sport-touring.net that shows the current preception other riders have of BMW's reliability.

 

http://www.sport-touring.net/forums/index.php/topic,12456.0.html

[Schupo]

Quote:

So are you saying that EU riders have more clout? What do they think about this issue? What boards are the EU riders on? Are the EU riders going to take issue with BMW?

_________________________________________________________

 

Probably not in any significant way. Somebody said that Europeans don't think like Americans, and while that is probably generally accurate, it is absolutely so in the area of business and marketing. For whatever reason,the German automotive consumer is convinced that if he/she owns something "special", then he/she must properly care for it, and this proper care involves many visits to the dealership to maintain the "special-ness" of his/her vehicle. When I tell my relatives in Germany that I have owned three Honda Accords that each went over 200,000 Km without any repairs whatsoever and only went into a shop for routine maintenance, they take that as confirmation that Hondas are just not up to German standards. When I mention that my '05 Acura only needs regular oil changes until its first real service is due at 176,000 Km, they marvel why I would buy that over an Audi or MB, which even in Europe rank significantly lower on JD Power quality ratings.

 

I would venture that German BMW owners somehow would look on FD failures as confirmation of their status rather than as a shortcoming on BMW's part.

 

To me, this phenomenon also explains the corporate arrogance shown by many European manufacturers.

[Matts_12GS]

We temporarily interrupt the serial dissing of each other and our countries for this statement:

 

"I love my Suzondayamasaki and thinks this thread is going to keep me riding it despite some recent leanings toward a R12GS."

 

Please resume flogging this dead horse.

[Jim VonBaden]

Hey look, another FD thread with the same pontificators jumping all over it!

 

Jim

[roadrider3]

I went to the thread but could not locate anything regarding people's perception of BMW'S.

[JamesW]

I been riding beemers since my first which was a '77 R75/7 and I still miss that beast. I had a '79 R100T that blew a FD seal somewhere east of Spokane in summer of about 1996. There was a BMW dealer in Spokane at the time but he was way to busy to make repair so I bought a couple bottles of gear lube and went on my way up into Canada and put about another 300 miles on before going home. The FD survived and I didn't think much about it as it was just one of those things. I do believe there were 4 BMWs and one HD that took the top 5 places in this year's IBR. Why not focus on this achievement for a change? And then we have all this talk about law suits from the californians on this site....jeeeeezzzz....

[Volfan615]

I went to the thread but could not locate anything regarding people's perception of BMW'S.

 

I think the link didn't work the way I pasted it in.. try this link here

[russell_bynum]

I've been around for a number of years, and it seems like we move from one OCD fixation to another. It made me think of this oft-used graphic.

 

It's not as if there's no issue here, but it seems like internet discussion boards must swing from one hot issue to the next. If a visitor dropped in here, you couldn't blame them for thinking that 86% of the final drives were failing.

 

So, we'll have another 200 freakin' threads on this in the next year and then we'll move onto something else.

 

Absolutely true.

[Yukon]

A recall ain't likely to happen people. The best you can hope for is that BMW will replace a failed FD when it happens. Kawasaki did this with their Vulcan 1500 classics when they first came out in 96, 97 and I believe 98. Those model years used a plastic oil pump gear that was prone to failure at which time no oil was "pumped" resulting in some very nasty engine damage; seizures. If the gear failed, even if out of warranty, Kawasaki replaced it with a metal one and paid for any other damage associated with the failure; some received a total engine rebuild. Replacement of the oil pump gear was very labor intensive as the engine cases had to be split to replace the gear.

 

The Vulcan forum was all up in arms about it, exactly like what is happening here. I believe it was in 99 that Kawasaki changed to a metal oil pump gear in those models.

 

I believe that is the best we can expect. So just ride your bike, keep up on routine maintenance, and keep an eye on the FD.

 

As an aside: The K12R forums are all up in arms about trans failures......sometimes you just can't win!

[russell_bynum]

Hey look, another FD thread with the same pontificators jumping all over it!

 

Jim

 

And I see you've added your incredibly valuable input as usual. Thank God for that.

[Rob_______]

Any recommendations of a model year RT to avoid the FD issue? I'm thinking an 03/04. Inputs?

[russell_bynum]

Any recommendations of a model year RT to avoid the FD issue? I'm thinking an 03/04. Inputs?

 

Not really.

 

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about it that much. Statistically it is unlikely that you'll have a problem.

[smiller]

So, we'll have another 200 freakin' threads on this in the next year and then we'll move onto something else.

Absolutely true.

Yes, but then again if the frequency of drivetrain failures would lessen then so might the thread count...

[russell_bynum]

So, we'll have another 200 freakin' threads on this in the next year and then we'll move onto something else.

Absolutely true.

Yes, but then again if the frequency of drivetrain failures would lessen then so would the thread count...

 

Yep.

 

I'm sure the Goldwing guys fixated on the frame failures and all the GL1800 forums were overflowing with frame failure posts.

 

Then Honda fixed the problem, and I'll bet you don't see that issue anymore.

 

David's right...we tend to fixate on the "problem du jour" and it gets blown out of proportion.

 

The flipside of this is that we keep having this same "problem du jour" over and over again...which is (IMO) the indicator of the real problem....not that BMW screwed up, got some bad bearings, used the wrong oil, had a machine in their factory get knocked out of whack for a while, but that this same problem keeps coming up again and again year after year and there's been no apparent fix.

[Lawman]

So, we'll have another 200 freakin' threads on this in the next year and then we'll move onto something else.

Absolutely true.

Yes, but then again if the frequency of drivetrain failures would lessen then so might the thread count...

 

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean that someone is not trying to get me...

[DavidEBSmith]

I skimmed the posts, and it seems to get overlooked that 4 or the 5 top finishers were on BMW's including the winner on a R1200GSA.

 

From the perspective of a former IBR rider, when considering reliability it's not the bikes that finish that are interesting, it's the ones that don't. If I were picking a bike to ride in the IBR, which for most people is a once-in-a-lifetime experience and a commitment of way too much time and money, a bike mortality rate of (best case) 2 out of 39 would scare the h*ll out of me and be unacceptable. The fact that 37 out of 39 didn't break is meaningless - I expect that most modern motorcycles should be able to go 11,000 miles without self-destructing.

[eakins]

like i said before, IBR is like racing, it proves/fails parts. this is more than 10yrs coming. i know you all love BMW to death, but something is wrong here. it shouldn't take that long to perfect a design. the lowly & cheap "poor man's bmw", 3 stroms, finished without issue.

[eakins]

<snip>

"It's way, way past time for BMW to fix its drivetrain reliability problems. A good start might be to acknowledge that there is a problem."

<snip>

I am sure the negative publicity has commanded the attention of the highest level executives at BMW, and I anxiously await their response.

 

I'm commenting in GENERAL... not saying just BMW specifically... Corporations deal with the easiest way to generate new, or replace lost, revenue.

 

If poor product design causes a drop in sales, many times the solution is to increase marketing and look for new customers! That may be a cheaper way to replace lost revenue than product redesign and recall.

 

In some cases (NOT suggesting this here...) the only way for the existing victims of a bad design is class action. The only way the corporation can minimize their losses is to fight it, or settle it.

 

Look at the recall on BMW fuel line disconnects. The dealer replaces them if they are leaking. Not before. So you have to have a fuel leak and potential fire BEFORE they replace it. When they do, BMWNA tells the dealer to replace it with the exact same plastic part number that consistently fails, even though BMW's source for the fuel disconnect makes the same part in chrome plated brass for a few dollars more.(Not the dealers fault that this is BMWNA's solution).

 

I don't have an itch for litigation, but with a little research and a good lawyer, I'll bet the first person who's bike burns up and / or they are injured... something MIGHT be done.

 

We can be unhappy about it, and disappointed, but at the end of the day this behavior is CONSISTENT across all automobile and motorcycle manufacturers. I'm not being cynical, but we pick our poison. Some from a more informed position than others unfortunately.

 

Kinna sad.

 

P.S. - I love my bike!

and that's what sucks with most corps. makes me think of toyota and the engine problems the had in the past. they aknowledged the problem, fixed em for free and waranteed the deal. toyota stepped up to the plate and today they are #1 in many ways. bmw on the other hand sticks there head in the sand.

[eakins]

...So are you saying that EU riders have more clout?

Yes. 2006 US Sales Report (courtesy MCN) all numbers rounded

 

HD 28% (265,433)

Honda 24% (231,669)

Yamaha 18% (175,303)

Suzuki 14% (138,850)

Kawasaki 8% (78,879)

KTM 2% (22,243)

BMW 1% (13,575)

 

And how many of the 13,575 are bikes with FD designs in question? Let's assume 80% were (and I think that number is high). That's 10,860 U.S Bikes. I'd say the U.S. has no clout (btw, that's only 4% of the bikes that HD sold last year!)

 

Mike O

if BMW wants to sell more bikes and make more $ (isn't that what corps want to do? make more $) you would think they would look at those sales numbers and say alot of bikes are sold as a whole in the US per year and we need more of those sales. how many bikes as a whole are sold in EU? my point is how can a corp ignore a market (when it sells to it in the first place) when there is so much potential?

[eakins]

Quote:

So are you saying that EU riders have more clout? What do they think about this issue? What boards are the EU riders on? Are the EU riders going to take issue with BMW?

_________________________________________________________

 

Probably not in any significant way. Somebody said that Europeans don't think like Americans, and while that is probably generally accurate, it is absolutely so in the area of business and marketing. For whatever reason,the German automotive consumer is convinced that if he/she owns something "special", then he/she must properly care for it, and this proper care involves many visits to the dealership to maintain the "special-ness" of his/her vehicle. When I tell my relatives in Germany that I have owned three Honda Accords that each went over 200,000 Km without any repairs whatsoever and only went into a shop for routine maintenance, they take that as confirmation that Hondas are just not up to German standards. When I mention that my '05 Acura only needs regular oil changes until its first real service is due at 176,000 Km, they marvel why I would buy that over an Audi or MB, which even in Europe rank significantly lower on JD Power quality ratings.

 

I would venture that German BMW owners somehow would look on FD failures as confirmation of their status rather than as a shortcoming on BMW's part.

 

To me, this phenomenon also explains the corporate arrogance shown by many European manufacturers.

if that's true, then you guys sure sided with a company that effectly doesn't give a rats arse about ya.

[John in VA]

I skimmed the posts, and it seems to get overlooked that 4 or the 5 top finishers were on BMW's including the winner on a R1200GSA. A Harley was the other top 5... also considered ot be unreliable. So the 2 least reliable makes, made up ALL of the top finishers. The Hondas and Yamahas were Also-rans further down the list.

 

Personally, I think that finishing in the top echelon of the IBR is 90% about the RIDER and 10% about the bike. Unless the bike completely craps out, of course.