Final Drives - What are we going to do about it?

[PhillyFlash]

I'm one of those people who come here to research potential bike purchases. I plan to buy a new bike early in '09. The R1200RT was at the top of my short list. I'll be watching to see what BMW does on this issue.

 

Ron

 

If FD failure is your greatest concern, you will have a 92-98% probability of loving a BMW if you buy one. You will have a 92-98% probability of not having a FD problem during your first 75,000 miles of ownership. If you do have a FD problem, based on the LT board statistics, you will have approximately a 65% probability of having it occur during the first 36,000 miles, which will still be under warranty if you put on lots of miles. If you buy a BMW, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Harley, Kawasaki, KTM, Ducati, Vespa, or Schwinn, you will have a 100% probability of having someone tell you why it was a mistake to buy it.

 

There are dozens of excellent bikes out there for us to choose from, and all of them have their pros and cons. Some are more expensive, some are more reliable, some are prettier, some are faster, some handle better, and some last longer. But overall, even with BMWs, we are far better off with our choices today than we were 20 years ago. We may talk about the old airheads that would run forever and how well they handled and performed, but I don't remember hearing about airheads taking a curve at 120 mph with room and power to spare. There definitely are trade-offs for any brand you think about, and brand-specific boards will always have lengthly threads about the problems of those bikes. It is people who experience problems who are going to be the most vocal. Those problems are a valid concern, but 2-8% doesn't mean that the entire brand is to be avoided. Problems do occur. Our perception of BMW not doing enough to address these problems, BMW seeing to not take the problems seriously enough, and BMW not being open about problems that we all know to exist is a far greater concern in my mind.

 

Bottom line, rarely is a motorcycle bought for purely logical reasons. Research the pluses and minuses of any bike you're considering, not just for the logical reasons, such as reliability, but for the often more important emotional ones (how do people feel about riding the bike), and make your decision. Odds are, you're going to like whatever you decide upon, as long as you get out there and ride it rather than sitting at home, reading motorcycle forums, afraid to take the bike more than 20 miles from home because you have a 2-8% chance of having a problem that may leave you stranded. (Anyone remember someone named Daniel?)

[smiller]

That's more like it! I'm sure there are hundreds more just like you and your moto.

Yeah, like mine, approaching 100k with a trouble-free final drive. But that doesn't mean that I don't get valuable information from these threads. Forewarned is forearmed, and while I'm not overly concerned about the issue the information I've gained this way is very useful in that it helps me apply my attention to the right areas when doing preventative maintenance, and who knows... a little extra attention to the known weak areas may save me a breakdown someday. I agree that there's no need to freak out, but there's also nothing wrong with simply knowing about the issue, and I wouldn't if not for these threads. God knows I'm not going to hear about it from BMW.

 

If you are somehow disturbed by the content there's no requirement to read the thread. A politely-worded contrary or balancing point of view is always welcome but if a contribution consists of nothing more than yet another 'mine hasn't failed' comment or a complaint about what you perceive as 'whining'... well, these don't add a lot of value and are often needlessly insulting to those who are interested in the topic.

[awagnon]

f you are somehow disturbed by the content there's no requirement to read the thread. A politely-worded contrary or balancing point of view is always welcome but if a contribution consists of nothing more than yet another 'mine hasn't failed' comment or a complaint about what you perceive as 'whining'... well, these don't add a lot of value and are often needlessly insulting to those who are interested in the topic.

 

+1 Thank you for saying this so well.

 

I also get value out of these threads. I had been undecided about trading or selling my 1150RT for a 1200RT. I have decided to keep it and spend the money on new shocks, an ad-on cruise control, and maybe other farkles. I consider a 2-8% chance of FD failure unacceptable since much of my riding is in the middle of nowhere and you can't even get cell phone reception to call a tow. Thanks for all who have posted on this thread constructively.

[Jim VonBaden]

That's more like it! I'm sure there are hundreds more just like you and your moto.

 

These FD threads remind me of group hysteria in a first grade class when one kid gets a tummy ache and 50 more think they have the same problem.

 

It's almost understandable if your a first grader. Here, it's a joke. Send your letters/sell your bikes/hide in the basement. The end is coming.

 

Oh, and do have a nice day.

 

 

 

HI Marty!

 

Jim

[OlGeezer]

Hi,

 

I think we need to take action.

 

 

Jan

 

I did something more productive.

 

I had my bearings checked and replaced.

 

Working on set (final drive crown bearing and paralever drive bearing) number 2 at 108k miles.

[velomoto]

Jan, anyone else - is the cause of the FD failures really known? Or to put it another way, assuming BMW does not issue a service bulletin or recall is there anything one can do to prevent the failure or is the cause still a mystery?

 

Sorry if I missed this in the 11 pages of posts...

 

[nrp]

The cause isn't obvious to this Mech Engr (now retired). Some apparently have ball pitting, some have a demolished ball cage, and some have signs of fretting on the face of the outer race. I assume there are inner and/or outer races that have spalling on the bearing groove. I would like to know if the spalling is strictly on the diameter, or if it is skewed onto the thrust faces of either of the deep groove races.

 

A problem in this application is that any failure will quickly cascade into a generally wrecked bearing assembly that will defy any postmortem.

 

In the meantime all I can suggest is to be SURE that the preload is correct per the BMW specs.

[Twisties]

So far as I know the cause is unknown... to us, presumably BMW is actively researching the issue and there are reports that every FD goes back to Germany. Speculation is that there are multiple causes, and my personal belief is that this true.

 

I think we could sum up what is known as follows:

 

The problem is described as premature FD failure, and seems to occur under 40k miles, often the 20-35k range, although as early as 2k miles have been reported.

 

The failure rate is generally agreed to be in the low percent range, although that must be recognized as speculation. A number of people have had multiple failures on the same bike.

 

The problem has been going on for approximately 10 years and affects multiple models and designs.

 

BMW has remained silent on the matter.

 

Some feel the problem is a safety issue, others don't. There are reports of loss of braking power and control, and destruction of brake pads. No reports I've seen of wheels locking. Some discussion which I have not verified of one case, and one case only, of fire in the brakes secondary to an FD failure. Most of the problems are caught before something serious happens. One rider reported however severe wheel wobble and loss of braking control/power on a stretch of interstate that was under construction and had nowhere to pull off. He clearly felt this was very dangerous.

 

Some feel the problem is unacceptable, others refer to these people as whiners or snivelers.

 

In most case BMW has gotten riders back on the road without undue delay. Some have reported that the problem was covered out of warranty, some have reported that the problem was not covered out of warranty, some have reported that warning signs were treated seriously, others have been forced to ride until it puked oil.

 

I think that about sums it up.

[Amac]

I think the moral of the story is that there are too many good motorcycles being sold today to deal with it anymore...the final drives...the scarcity of dealers...etc.

[velomoto]

Twisties, NRP - thanks for the response. I was hoping there was some sort of preventative maintenance to help ensure this problem wouldn't affect my 12RT. Guess I'll just keep an eye out for play in the rear wheel and watch BMWST in the odd event that BMW makes some sort of an announcement.

 

Cheers,

Greg

[awagnon]

I was hoping there was some sort of preventative maintenance to help ensure this problem wouldn't affect my 12RT.

 

If you haven't changed the "good for the life of the bike" FD oil, then you should. That and watch for leaks and shake the wheel regularly. ( And carry a cell phone with your towing service on speed dial. )

[nrp]

My latest thoughts are on the BMWMOA site at;

http://www.bmwmoa.org/forum/showthread.php?t=19525&page=4

[Rocket_Cowboy]

If you haven't changed the "good for the life of the bike" FD oil, then you should. That and watch for leaks and shake the wheel regularly. ( And carry a cell phone with your towing service on speed dial. )

 

Change the FD oil regularly, and keep excellent notes as to the appearance of the removed FD oil. Between checking for free play in the rear wheel and reading what the FD oil is telling you, you'll have a good idea as to the condition of the FD.

[eakins]

So far as I know the cause is unknown... to us, presumably BMW is actively researching the issue and there are reports that every FD goes back to Germany. Speculation is that there are multiple causes, and my personal belief is that this true.

 

I think we could sum up what is known as follows:

 

The problem is described as premature FD failure, and seems to occur under 40k miles, often the 20-35k range, although as early as 2k miles have been reported.

 

The failure rate is generally agreed to be in the low percent range, although that must be recognized as speculation. A number of people have had multiple failures on the same bike.

 

The problem has been going on for approximately 10 years and affects multiple models and designs.

 

BMW has remained silent on the matter.

 

Some feel the problem is a safety issue, others don't. There are reports of loss of braking power and control, and destruction of brake pads. No reports I've seen of wheels locking. Some discussion which I have not verified of one case, and one case only, of fire in the brakes secondary to an FD failure. Most of the problems are caught before something serious happens. One rider reported however severe wheel wobble and loss of braking control/power on a stretch of interstate that was under construction and had nowhere to pull off. He clearly felt this was very dangerous.

 

Some feel the problem is unacceptable, others refer to these people as whiners or snivelers.

 

In most case BMW has gotten riders back on the road without undue delay. Some have reported that the problem was covered out of warranty, some have reported that the problem was not covered out of warranty, some have reported that warning signs were treated seriously, others have been forced to ride until it puked oil.

 

I think that about sums it up.

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167287

[Jim VonBaden]

 

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167287

 

Just an FYI, that was a sticking brake heat issue, not a FD issue!

 

Jim

[russell_bynum]

Just an FYI, that was a sticking brake heat issue, not a FD issue!

 

Correct. I've heard of a couple problems like this (usually due to the owner incorrectly adjusting the pedal so that the brake is applied all the time.) and it is definitely not a design issue with the final drive.

[BrianT]

Just an FYI, that was a sticking brake heat issue, not a FD issue!

 

Jim

I've heard that too, but looking at the photo I'm wondering how an overheated brake would overheat the FD? Or is it simply the extra load on the FD working against the brake action?

[Twisties]

Just an FYI, that was a sticking brake heat issue, not a FD issue!

 

Jim

I've heard that too, but looking at the photo I'm wondering how an overheated brake would overheat the FD? Or is it simply the extra load on the FD working against the brake action?

 

Brian, I thought Jim was joking, with the rofl. I haven't gotten all the way through the flaming FD thread, but at about 8 pages into there is certainly nothing to indicate that it was anything other than the FD. In fact the OP states something to the effect that the only thing that wasn't replaced was the brake calipers.

 

Jim, perhaps you can clarify?

 

Jan

[russell_bynum]

Just an FYI, that was a sticking brake heat issue, not a FD issue!

 

Jim

I've heard that too, but looking at the photo I'm wondering how an overheated brake would overheat the FD? Or is it simply the extra load on the FD working against the brake action?

 

I don't know anything about the failure in that photo...

 

But I've heard of that rubber boot catching fire due to a dragging rear brake. Remember, the FD housing is aluminum, and aluminum conducts heat VERY well. I don't know how much heat we're talking about, but if it is enough to ignite the rubber boot, I have to think that it's enough to cook the oil inside the final drive...or cause it to expand sufficiently that the internal tolerances are totally out of whack to the extent that failure results.

 

As I said: I don't know what happened in this particular case, but it seems feasible to me that a dragging rear brake could potentially lead to FD Failure.

[Twisties]

Some snips from the advrider thread, all by the OP:

 

"....Up until this and the previous 2 hours of riding, my ride from Houston, SoCal, Mexico, Canada, Idaho, Montana, Yellowstone to just south of Jackson Hole had been great!

 

Total Miles on bike, 11,300. All scheduled Services done as prescribed in Owners Manual."

 

"....65 MPH +/- 5 MPH.

 

I felt it a rumble in the pegs about 80 miles previous. Pulled over put bike on Center Stand, no leaks, no play in real wheel when grabbed and try to wiggle at top and bottom & left and right.

 

Hit the road again and then the speedo went about 10 miles later. I was trying to get to Rock Springs to where I atleast had modern conviences prior to tearing into it. It made to 22 miles north of there before a car pulled up beside and flagged me over."

 

".... The theroy is that the inner bearing siezed and heated everthing up. Even when on the lift at the shop there was still no play in the rear wheel... go figure.

 

Everything fixed under warranty, no questions asked.

 

New Swingarm new final drive, new.... wait this is easier than itemizing. Everthing, EVERYTHING, but the Brake Caliper and rear wheel & tire replaced. under warranty"

 

 

An opinion on the cause from another poster in the advrider thread:

 

".....Just a guess, but it looks like the pinion gear bearing failed, creating the rumble and lack or wheel sloppyness. As the failing bearing got worse, it heated, melting the front seal and letting the oil out. It then got even hotter, catching the spilling oil on fire."

 

A terrible way to go...

 

The OP again:

 

"...I tend to agree with you. There never was any slop in the rear wheel. I have not had a chance to pull up the drawing on the final drive to compare notes yet. The Serviceman only mentioned that an "inner bearing" siezed up. Not certian on which bearing this could be or whether or not it is a manufacturing defect. If the final drive was low on oil it could have happened too."

 

 

My take on this: If it is brakes, then why doesn't he notice the thing is smoking hot when stops and checks it? If it is brakes, then why does the dealer think it started in the FD and tell him an innner bearing seized? If it is brakes, wouldn't the brake calipers be damaged by that much heat?

 

However, I readily admit I know nothing... waiting for more advanced interpretations with open mind.

[Jim VonBaden]

Some snips from the advrider thread, all by the OP:

 

"....Up until this and the previous 2 hours of riding, my ride from Houston, SoCal, Mexico, Canada, Idaho, Montana, Yellowstone to just south of Jackson Hole had been great!

 

Total Miles on bike, 11,300. All scheduled Services done as prescribed in Owners Manual."

 

"....65 MPH +/- 5 MPH.

 

I felt it a rumble in the pegs about 80 miles previous. Pulled over put bike on Center Stand, no leaks, no play in real wheel when grabbed and try to wiggle at top and bottom & left and right.

 

Hit the road again and then the speedo went about 10 miles later. I was trying to get to Rock Springs to where I atleast had modern conviences prior to tearing into it. It made to 22 miles north of there before a car pulled up beside and flagged me over."

 

".... The theroy is that the inner bearing siezed and heated everthing up. Even when on the lift at the shop there was still no play in the rear wheel... go figure.

 

Everything fixed under warranty, no questions asked.

 

New Swingarm new final drive, new.... wait this is easier than itemizing. Everthing, EVERYTHING, but the Brake Caliper and rear wheel & tire replaced. under warranty"

 

 

An opinion on the cause from another poster in the advrider thread:

 

".....Just a guess, but it looks like the pinion gear bearing failed, creating the rumble and lack or wheel sloppyness. As the failing bearing got worse, it heated, melting the front seal and letting the oil out. It then got even hotter, catching the spilling oil on fire."

 

A terrible way to go...

 

The OP again:

 

"...I tend to agree with you. There never was any slop in the rear wheel. I have not had a chance to pull up the drawing on the final drive to compare notes yet. The Serviceman only mentioned that an "inner bearing" siezed up. Not certian on which bearing this could be or whether or not it is a manufacturing defect. If the final drive was low on oil it could have happened too."

 

 

My take on this: If it is brakes, then why doesn't he notice the thing is smoking hot when stops and checks it? If it is brakes, then why does the dealer think it started in the FD and tell him an innner bearing seized? If it is brakes, wouldn't the brake calipers be damaged by that much heat?

 

However, I readily admit I know nothing... waiting for more advanced interpretations with open mind.

 

It is my understanding that the brake rotor got incredibly hot due to stresses placed on it by the pads binding on the rotor. If you look at your bike you will see the rotor is very cloe to the rubber boot. The heat required to set the rubber on fire is very considerable. IF the FD was that hot for even a couple minutes it would have seized up solid, or disintegrated.

 

NOT saying the FD wasn't bad after exposure to the heat, but no way the FD going bad could create the heat necessaary to catch the rubber on fire without blowing out the seals and spewing boiling hot fluids everywhere.

 

On the other hand, the rumble could easily have been caused by the rotor and brake system coming apart, and might not be imediately obvious at a stop.

 

I have my doubts that they changed the rotor and pads, but not the caliper after all the heat it was expossed to.

 

Then again, I don't have first hand knowledge, and this was taken from the thread at the time, and subsequent discussion.

 

Jim

[Twisties]

Some snips from the advrider thread, all by the OP:

 

"....Up until this and the previous 2 hours of riding, my ride from Houston, SoCal, Mexico, Canada, Idaho, Montana, Yellowstone to just south of Jackson Hole had been great!

 

Total Miles on bike, 11,300. All scheduled Services done as prescribed in Owners Manual."

 

"....65 MPH +/- 5 MPH.

 

I felt it a rumble in the pegs about 80 miles previous. Pulled over put bike on Center Stand, no leaks, no play in real wheel when grabbed and try to wiggle at top and bottom & left and right.

 

Hit the road again and then the speedo went about 10 miles later. I was trying to get to Rock Springs to where I atleast had modern conviences prior to tearing into it. It made to 22 miles north of there before a car pulled up beside and flagged me over."

 

".... The theroy is that the inner bearing siezed and heated everthing up. Even when on the lift at the shop there was still no play in the rear wheel... go figure.

 

Everything fixed under warranty, no questions asked.

 

New Swingarm new final drive, new.... wait this is easier than itemizing. Everthing, EVERYTHING, but the Brake Caliper and rear wheel & tire replaced. under warranty"

 

 

An opinion on the cause from another poster in the advrider thread:

 

".....Just a guess, but it looks like the pinion gear bearing failed, creating the rumble and lack or wheel sloppyness. As the failing bearing got worse, it heated, melting the front seal and letting the oil out. It then got even hotter, catching the spilling oil on fire."

 

A terrible way to go...

 

The OP again:

 

"...I tend to agree with you. There never was any slop in the rear wheel. I have not had a chance to pull up the drawing on the final drive to compare notes yet. The Serviceman only mentioned that an "inner bearing" siezed up. Not certian on which bearing this could be or whether or not it is a manufacturing defect. If the final drive was low on oil it could have happened too."

 

 

My take on this: If it is brakes, then why doesn't he notice the thing is smoking hot when stops and checks it? If it is brakes, then why does the dealer think it started in the FD and tell him an innner bearing seized? If it is brakes, wouldn't the brake calipers be damaged by that much heat?

 

However, I readily admit I know nothing... waiting for more advanced interpretations with open mind.

 

It is my understanding that the brake rotor got incredibly hot due to stresses placed on it by the pads binding on the rotor. If you look at your bike you will see the rotor is very cloe to the rubber boot. The heat required to set the rubber on fire is very considerable. IF the FD was that hot for even a couple minutes it would have seized up solid, or disintegrated.

 

NOT saying the FD wasn't bad after exposure to the heat, but no way the FD going bad could create the heat necessaary to catch the rubber on fire without blowing out the seals and spewing boiling hot fluids everywhere.

 

On the other hand, the rumble could easily have been caused by the rotor and brake system coming apart, and might not be imediately obvious at a stop.

 

I have my doubts that they changed the rotor and pads, but not the caliper after all the heat it was expossed to.

 

Then again, I don't have first hand knowledge, and this was taken from the thread at the time, and subsequent discussion.

 

Jim

 

Jim,

 

Thanks for your response!

 

I searched the entire advrider thread for "rotor" and for "brake". The only reference I could find to this was someone going off about what used to happen on older paralevers. It was in reference to BMWs record of fixing things, or not. There is absolutely no discussion in the thread that brakes are related to what happened to this bike.

 

Again, the guy stopped and looked over everything, handled the wheel etc. If the rotor was glowing orange, he'd have noticed. Also, in the pick the rotor is not glowing. The story is (as told in the thread) these things had to get glowing hot to cause the fire.

 

Jan