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Final Drives - What are we going to do about it?


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Fernando,

Just posting, not at you. cool.gif

I hope my final drive doesn't go south.

Hate to see it happen to anyone.

I know of one GS on its 4th final drive. crazy.gif

BMW's aren't just about final drives and I don't ride one because of that feature. I do like shaft drives.

I ride beemers because for me, the brakes and suspension work. I don't do track days and I'm an average rider. Just today I had 3 close encounters of the Bambi kind.

60 mph and saw it coming, smart deer, went away.

Slowed down after that, it was just before sun up, and had a very close encounter, 90% brakes, steering correction, good deer, it kept going.

On the way home it was thunder and lightning time, so I started to speed up, to beat the storm dopeslap.gif.

Bad deer, sneaky deer, invisible deer, out of nowhere, (very wooded area) 100% braking, no drama, telelever performed, no wheel tuck, no locked wheel(s), small steering correction.

Bad deer, could've hit it with my glove if I wanted to count coup. My front wheel and Bambi were within 6 inches of contact. Bad deer, go away. tongue.gif

That's why I ride a BMW. I'm fortunate in that I get to try out these features now and then. smirk.gif

I know that I'd have had a different outcome on a conventional front end motorcycle.

I know that a non ABS bike would've been a disaster, oh, did I mention it had just started to rain?

So, I hope the final drive issue is resolved for everyone in a positive way.

Until another marque gives me these (to me) advantageous features, or I improve my skills, I'll stick with BMW's.

Fernando, very cogent posts.

Best wishes.

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[hornet's nest]

 

Indeed!!!!! Incidently, although I'm about to disagree with you below, I appreciate your well thought out opinion, and that you cared to post it. Also, I almost always agree with and find valuable all your posts... so don't take anything personally, just 'cause we don't see this the same!

 

1. Final Drives are supposed to be maintenance-free, not failure-free.

 

Major mechanical items should not be suffering catastrophic failure prior to what would be a normal rebuild interval. I would have to say that my expectation would be for an FD to be good for at least 100k miles, may be 200k, somewhere in that range. These are failing under 40k miles. Unacceptable.

 

2. Chain drives are infinitely more expensive to maintain and operate, even in light of the failure rate of final drives, BMW or otherwise.

 

Good point, but not relevant. BMW did not sell me a chain driven bike, no. They sold me a maintenance free FD shaft drive bike. That's what they owe me.

 

Let’s take a look at some numbers and put emotion aside, shall we.

 

First, if it’s YOUR final drive that fails, it hurts. $1,500 ($1400 for the FD and about $100 labor to R&R) is nothing to sneeze at. I’m not trying to minimize the importance of your pain, just put this FD issue into perspective.

 

Some BMW websites have done surveys/polls regarding FD failures. Highest I’ve seen is about 6% failure rate. Lowest I’ve seen is about a 2% failure rate. That assumes a great deal. It assumes that those who haven’t had a failure, and those who have, are equally motivated to participate in the poll. But these websites have thousands of members, and yet get maybe 100 or 200 overall responses, both good and bad, to these polls. Clearly, not everyone is participating and it’s reasonable to expect that those WITH a failure are more likely to contribute to such polls than those without. Realistically, I would put the failure rate of FD’s is on the order of 1%, maybe 1.5%, although I'm probably estimating too high. No, that’s still not OK.

 

I agree completely, emphatically, with the last two sentences. I'll go further: part of the problem is that BMW is not publicly addressing the problem. This creates the impression that, although we have no real numbers, it's a real problem. BMW needs to come clean! We need to know what the failure rate is.

 

Now here's a thought I am loathe to express. But another form of bias on these polls is that we only hear from those that survived the failure. Perhaps, and hopefully, that bias is 0, e.g. no one has died from this. But the reports suggest a lot of close calls.

 

In any event, 1% is a totally unacceptable number to me for major mechanical failure. I think it should be down in the 0.01% to 0.001% range for pre-mature failure. No question if it so outrageously high as 1% BMW owes us a recall for defective product, even if not for safety. Just my opinion.

 

But it’s closer to what the reality is. But to keep the nitpickers at bay, let’s take the higher assumption, double it and call it 3%, just for discussion.

 

At best, a 1000cc, 120hp sport-touring (or sport-touring capable) bike will eat a chain and sprockets in 15k-20k at an installed cost of about $400 for a quality DID chain and some good sprockets. Again, to keep the nits away, let’s call it 20k miles.

 

Maintenance/service: Chain lube at $10/can and 500-mile applications, vs. 230cc of a qt. of $20 synthetic gear lube. Well, it’s far more expensive to lube the chain but let’s just call it even. Same for the labor involved in maint/service. You spray your own chain lube 40 times during a 20K chain life. You change your FD fluid 3x. Again, a wash.

 

So, at the end of 100,000 miles, you will have spent $2,000 on chains and sprockets (5X$400), yet if you have a BMW with shaft drive you run an admittedly inflated 3% chance of having to spend $1500. And there’s a big IF involved here. IF your FD fails outside of warranty and IF you didn’t buy an extended warranty, which would eat up a fair share of that $1500, but which would cover your bike for up to 7 years, unlimited mileage, and zero deductible. There is NO warranty that covers chains and sprockets. None. Not from the manufacturer. Not from an aftermarket company. Unless the chain breaks as you pull out of the dealership upon taking delivery of a new bike, it’s considered a “wear” item. You pay. Every time. End of story.

 

Japanese FD’s: Do the Japanese do a better job? Can’t say. Perhaps. But statistically they don’t get as many miles put on them as quickly. And they only offer, on average, a 12/12 warranty, not a 36/36. What does that say about how much confidence they have in their products, or concern for you, their customer?

 

I know. We can whine ad nauseum about what happens when an FD fails in the middle of BFE and being 150 miles from the nearest BMW dealer. Trust me, the local Honzukaha dealer may be 25 miles away, but he doesn’t stock Japanese FD’s either. Doesn’t matter what you ride, you’re gonna need a tow and a motel room.

 

Look, the Japanese do what they do and produce what they produce, and BMW does it their way. I’ve put 90K on an RT and now ride an FJR. Believe me, they’re not the same and the BMW is worth the difference in more ways than I can enumerate.

 

You bought a shaft-drive bike so you wouldn’t have to muck with the FD, not so you would NEVER have to replace it.

 

Again, based on the BMWLT poll, failures are occurring in the 20 to 40K range. Not acceptable for a $2000 dollar repair.

 

If you put $400 in a bank account every 20K miles, equal to what you’d spend if you had to replace sprockets and chains, when you hit 100K miles you’d have $2000, with only a 3% chance that you’d have had to spend $1500 of it. WAIT! If you factor out the BMW factory warranty period, then that’s 3% X (64,000/100,000miles), or about a 1.9% chance that you would have had to spend the money. And remember, the 3% was actually 1.5% doubled to keep the nitpickers at bay (not that I think it’s actually going to help in some cases).

 

So, what would you do with that $2000 since there’s about a 98% chance that you’d actually still have it? Sounds like you’ve got a good chunk of your next down payment.

 

FD failures make for BIG news and BIG complaints because it’s a sudden BIG expense. That’s all. (So was the $4,000 transmission in my wife’s Lexus, but we budget $250/month for car maintenance, save the unused, and had it covered before it happened.) Still, if you’re one of the ones, my heart goes out to you because statistically the boogyman got you, just like it got us. But if you look at the numbers, and calculate the costs, and figure the percentages, AND PLAN ACCORDINGLY, we’re way ahead on shaft-drive bikes. Even the ones that have the relatively rare FD failure.

 

What these threads do for me is they point out the assumptions people make, their unrealistic expectations, and their eagerness to look to someone else for solutions. It also shows me how little people plan, then how angry they get when their lack of planning bites them. But that gets into a whole other area of life-living philosophies and practices. It is sooooooo much easier just to blame BMW.

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So, at the end of 100,000 miles,
I think what you may be missing is that no one here is lampooning final drives that provide 100,000 miles of good service and then require maintenance, rather the high number that seem to be failing at relatively low miles. Low-mileage failures indicate a problem, pure and simple.

 

+1 thumbsup.gif

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The three BMW FD failures in the IBR speak for themselves.

 

As has been pointed out, you're talking about a very small sample - 39 bikes. If you're going to draw a strong conclusion from that tiny data set, then you'll have come up with some other reason to explain why it's wrong to beam with pride at the zero BMW FD failures in the earlier IBR that EffBee mentioned.

 

Assuming similar numbers, then we're at 4% overall for the two races? We have had any number of failure reports on this board too.

 

If everything is ok, why doesn't BMW just come out and say so? I want to hear from BMW!!!

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Silver Surfer/AKAButters

This thread is way too long, I can't make it through the whole thing, anyway heres my .02 re BMWs. I drive BMW cars and bikes and never believed them to be among the most reliable products since most of the informtion available, on the cars at least, would support the fact that they are not as reliable as comparable Japanese products. I buy them because they provide a riding/driving expereince like no other, and closely match what I enjoy. With that said, my actual experience with BMW products has not lived up to the reputation of unreliability that most forums would indicate. Even if I was in the 1-3% categaory, or whatever it is, I would simply fix them and move on. I have definitely fallen victim to the, "the ultimate driving machine" marketing magic. When the ride/drive doesn't matter, Japanese products are perfect.

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I will be replacing my beloved A-Red R1100 RT in 2010 or 2011. By then it will have about 140k miles. I have plenty of time to see if BMW comes to the plate on this issue. Between the Iron Butt Rally and experiences of some Washington club members they have a problem in my opinion. There seems to be a high number of pre 50k mile failures. I find that unacceptable. You can love or leave it. I'll be watching carefully and vote with my dollar.

 

If they don't come to the plate then word will get out and sales will suffer. For the next bike I would love to go to the dark side with a K1200GT. Truly a fantastic bike. But the fear of a 36k final drive is a no go for me. Other manufactures are discovering the Sport Touring segment as cruisers are fading. There will be lots of good choices by 2010.

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I almost always agree with and find valuable all your posts... so don't take anything personally, just 'cause we don't see this the same!
No offense taken. A well-presented opinion always gets my respect, independent of my agreement.

 

Major mechanical items should not be suffering catastrophic failure prior to what would be a normal rebuild interval. I would have to say that my expectation would be for an FD to be good for at least 100k miles, may be 200k, somewhere in that range. These are failing under 40k miles. Unacceptable.

That it's your "expectation" isn't the issue. You do expect eventual failure as with all mechanical devices. The issue is where you draw the line vs. where the line is currently drawn. You don't like it. Make your riding decisions accordingly. If the line is going to move, it will not be based on internet complaints, but on market (in)activity. THAT is where your power is. Not here. Choosing the brand, then expecting to change it, works exactly the opposite of what you hope to achieve.

 

BMW did not sell me a chain driven bike, no. They sold me a maintenance free FD shaft drive bike. That's what they owe me.

It's probably just a wording slip on your part, but you got exactly what you say they owe you. The FD is (separate from lube changes) absolutely maintenance-free. But it's not failure-free.

 

. . .part of the problem is that BMW is not publicly addressing the problem. This creates the impression that, although we have no real numbers, it's a real problem. BMW needs to come clean! We need to know what the failure rate is.

I've read your stuff on this site and from that I surmise that you definitely know better. Companies do not release such numbers publicly. It does not further the corporate interest. If you were running a company, any company, would you release such numbers? I don't apologize for BMW. They know that there are some unhappy customers as well as (apparently) plenty of hand-wringers who, it would seem, ride in screaming wild-eyed fear of nuclear-final-drive doom based on statistics that don't cause most a wink of sleep. BMW has its priorities, schedules, and balance sheets. It will get addressed when it gets addressed. We can either accept the risk/reward ratio as it currently exists, or move on.

 

I will add this, however. Recent leadership changes at BMW AG have re-invigorated the motorcycle side. We've all seen the changes. Moving into the sportbike market with the K12S and its variants. The performance, light weight and poweful flexibility of the new F800's. A 650 line that's fast, exciting and broad. And there's the recent acquisition of Husqvarna. It would appear that there are people in charge who are tasked with making BMW more of a main-market player rather than a niche player. To me (and this is purely a personal opinion) that would bode well for further attention being paid to whatever current shortcomings their bikes may have. Especially the flagship bikes. That's my $.02 and you can take it for what it's worth.

 

In any event, 1% is a totally unacceptable number to me for major mechanical failure. I think it should be down in the 0.01% to 0.001% range for pre-mature failure. No question if it so outrageously high as 1% BMW owes us a recall for defective product, even if not for safety. Just my opinion.

Just like corporations don't pay taxes, they pass them on to the consumer, so do companies not pay for warranty costs. They are, in part, borne by the retail pricing of the subsequent model year(s). In such a scenario, a corporation weighs a few dissatisfied customers against an entire upcoming product line being priced out of the market. Whether it's Ford, Toyota, Maytag, Sony or BMW. These are business decisions. What we personally want has little to do with it. No, it's not pretty. It's business. Not everyone can stomach the real world. That's not a personal dig, but a general and fairly accurate observation.

 

Again, based on the BMWLT poll, failures are occurring in the 20 to 40K range. Not acceptable for a $2000 dollar repair.

And the vast, VAST majority of bikes go over 100,000 miles without problems. There is a law of averages for a reason. You can't take a low, single-digit percentage and paint an entire product line with it. You may WANT to, especially if you're one of the small percentage affected. But that's emotional rather than rational. I understand the emotional side well. I've been trying to present the rational, although I'm bumping into quite a few emotional walls.

 

True objective understanding, even when painful, is best balanced. Without objectivity, the path to progress is mired in wails, nits and other disposables.

 

P.S. Do you think we woke up BamaRider? Naw, me neither.

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russell_bynum

If the line is going to move, it will not be based on internet complaints, but on market (in)activity. THAT is where your power is. Not here.

 

Ah...but that's where you're wrong.

 

I made my decision to not buy a BMW (K1200R) when I was in the market for a new bike and part of that reasoning (not all of it, but definitely a consideration) was the way BMW has dealt with (or not) these issues. But that's just me. The most powerful advertising is word of mouth...and it works both ways. If a glossy magazine ad tells me that the R1200RT is THE choice for big-mile riders, that's one thing. But if a bunch of people I know tell me that they've experienced (or know people who have) experienced expensive "leave you stranded on the side of the road in Moosenuts, Montana" problems, that't a whole bunch more powerful. (To me, at least.)

 

We know people come here to research potential bike purchases. Many of them see these complaints and it makes them think twice. We frequently see posts from people who are getting cold feet because of the problems they've read about here and elsewhere.

 

Now...it's true that this type of site is often a repository for people's problems. Go find any similar site and you'll find reports of all sorts of horrifying problems. So you have to take everything with a grain of salt. But when I go on X product's forum and I read about something like this that appears to be impacting a disproportionally large group, it makes me think. When I hear that it's been a recurring problem for a long time and the company hasn't done anything to fix it, it makes me REALLY think.

 

So, I think there's great market power in this sort of thing.

 

 

One more nit to pick...

 

And the vast, VAST majority of bikes go over 100,000 miles without problems.

 

I disagree...because I don't think that the vast majority of bikes ever see 100K. Seriously...we've been going to BMWSt events for quite a few years now. How many bikes do you see with more than 100K on the clock? I know they're out there, and I can name a handful of folks that we both know with more than 100K on their odometers, but "vast majority"? I don't think so. And...many of those 100K+ bikes have had problems (and I'm not talking about burned out lightbulbs and broken throttle cables...I mean big things like splines, final drives, etc.)

 

We're pretty much in agreement...I just think there's value in whining about this online.

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I made my decision to not buy a BMW (K1200R) when I was in the market for a new bike and part of that reasoning (not all of it, but definitely a consideration) was the way BMW has dealt with (or not) these issues. But that's just me. The most powerful advertising is word of mouth...and it works both ways. If a glossy magazine ad tells me that the R1200RT is THE choice for big-mile riders, that's one thing. But if a bunch of people I know tell me that they've experienced (or know people who have) experienced expensive "leave you stranded on the side of the road in Moosenuts, Montana" problems, that't a whole bunch more powerful. (To me, at least.)

 

We know people come here to research potential bike purchases. Many of them see these complaints and it makes them think twice. We frequently see posts from people who are getting cold feet because of the problems they've read about here and elsewhere.

 

Now...it's true that this type of site is often a repository for people's problems. Go find any similar site and you'll find reports of all sorts of horrifying problems. So you have to take everything with a grain of salt. But when I go on X product's forum and I read about something like this that appears to be impacting a disproportionally large group, it makes me think. When I hear that it's been a recurring problem for a long time and the company hasn't done anything to fix it, it makes me REALLY think.

 

So, I think there's great market power in this sort of thing.

 

Cause and effect. All the complaints in the world accomplish nothing unless a market action is taken. Market inactivity is that action. We see the same thing two ways. You see A causing B. I don't care about A. Only B matters.

 

 

One more nit to pick...

 

And the vast, VAST majority of bikes go over 100,000 miles without problems.

 

I disagree...because I don't think that the vast majority of bikes ever see 100K.

Agreed. I misstated. Should have said that the VAST majority don't break down. Whether they go 100K or not is irrelevant.

 

We're pretty much in agreement...I just think there's value in whining about this online.

I still agree that the FD issues are hurting BMW. It remains to be seen how much. How much is not measured by complaints, though. B, not A.

 

Nice discussion, all. 'Nite.

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russell_bynum

You see A causing B. I don't care about A. Only B matters.

 

I care about A if it is successful in causing B.

 

I'm not convinced that it will actually work. I don't think BMW cares much about people who are actually bothered by things like this...because that's not where their money comes from.

 

It'll be interesting to see where this goes in the long run.

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I buy them because they provide a riding/driving expereince like no other, and closely match what I enjoy.

 

So you like sitting in service department waiting rooms? lmao.gif

 

Seriously, that time spent having my transmission rebuilt on my RT convinced me that BMW tampa is probably the only BMW dealer I'd consider. Of course, since I bought a rice bike I am a lot less concerned about failures with it...

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Well I for one feel a class action suit should be initiated against BMW. Their use of the work "final" in final drive is obviously misleading. lmao.gifdopeslap.gif

 

P.S. I'm leaving Sunday for a week long road trip. After much gnashing of teeth . . . I've decided to take the Beemer.

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This thread is too long.

 

If I was contemplating surgery and a doctor told me that there was a 94% chance of improvement in my condition, I'd go for it. It's a no brainer.

 

However, if the chance of improvement is 50% or less, its a closer question and I'd want to consider the downside a bit more. For a medical condition, the 50/50 chance of improvement would likely result in a no surgery decision.

 

Re the final drive: If I can't get a realistic estimate of the risk of failure, I can't assess the risk in a meaningful way. All I can do is factor it into my buying decision as an unknown.

 

I have to confess that I like the RT so well that I've made a decision not to worry about it.

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I am wondering if these failures could be related to lube. BMW specify any branded GL5, including multi-grades, for the tyranny but for the oilheads they specify SAE90 to GL5 and for the hexhead a specific brand and weight of oil. This tight-specification would imply a need for a specific quality from that type of oil that may be missing from others.

 

I know many here have changed the oil in their final drive, often putting in whatever brand has worked just dandy in all their other machines for years.

 

Andy.

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How many of the bikes with a failed FD have been overloaded for any length of time? I know the IBR crowd puts extra petrol tanks on, plus tools, spares etc. Some of the folks that ride the bikes are 10-50 kilos too heavy (could even be 2 people that are 10-50 kilos too heavy). Some go 2-up with camping gear etc. and maybe towing a trailer. If the whole system is being stressed in a way that it was never designed for that has to have an impact at some point.

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Re:

"Yeah but then when it comes time to change the belt be prepared to pull the swingarm off or pay someone to do it"

 

Steve, you don't need to pull the swing arm to replace the belt if you can find a mechanic who is good at Chinese puzzles.

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I am wondering if these failures could be related to lube. BMW specify any branded GL5, including multi-grades, for the tyranny but for the oilheads they specify SAE90 to GL5 and for the hexhead a specific brand and weight of oil. This tight-specification would imply a need for a specific quality from that type of oil that may be missing from others.

 

I know many here have changed the oil in their final drive, often putting in whatever brand has worked just dandy in all their other machines for years.

 

Andy.

 

From BMWLT Survey

 

# 13.

# Type of oil used in final drive

Dino - 59 36.88% 36.88%

Synthetic - 101 63.13% 63.13%

Total Answers - 160

 

How many of the bikes with a failed FD have been overloaded for any length of time? I know the IBR crowd puts extra petrol tanks on, plus tools, spares etc. Some of the folks that ride the bikes are 10-50 kilos too heavy (could even be 2 people that are 10-50 kilos too heavy). Some go 2-up with camping gear etc. and maybe towing a trailer. If the whole system is being stressed in a way that it was never designed for that has to have an impact at some point.

 

From BMWLT Survey:

 

# 15.

# Do you ride mostly One-up or Two-up

- if you ride two up less than 50% of the time, please choose One-Up

One-Up - 107 66.88% 66.88%

Two-Up - 53 33.13% 33.13%

Total Answers - 160

 

16.

# Do you pull a trailer

Yes - 23 14.38% 14.38%

No - 137 85.63% 85.63%

Total Answers - 160

 

With all due respect, I think it is unlikely that IBRs are riding two up, and even riding 2-up with luggage, most people are not going to exceed the 584 lbs payload of an RT (similar payloads on most beemers). Sharon and I weigh a combined 345, figure 60 lbs for fuel and lubricants, we'd still have room for 230 lbs of luggage. Just can't see that happening.

 

I certainly hope distance per day isn't an issue, and these failures are occurring in low mile bikes. As for speed, if that is a factor then BMW has real problems, IMHO.

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From BMWLT Survey

 

# 13.

# Type of oil used in final drive

Dino - 59 36.88% 36.88%

Synthetic - 101 63.13% 63.13%

Total Answers - 160

 

 

It is a pity the survey did not collect data on the viscosity, brand and grade of oil used. That is, was it as specified bt BMW or not? Dino and Synthetic are meaningless in this respect.

 

Andy

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Agree, but it's all the data we have.

 

I'd really like to hear from BMW. I know, I sound like a broken record.

 

Really, given the low miles involved, and that most people have the 600 mile done at the dealer, I'd be pretty surprised if it turns out to be oil choice, but I guarantee you that BMW knows!

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Well I for one feel a class action suit should be initiated against BMW. Their use of the work "final" in final drive is obviously misleading. lmao.gifdopeslap.gif

 

P.S. I'm leaving Sunday for a week long road trip. After much gnashing of teeth . . . I've decided to take the Beemer.

 

Finally someone is going to take action. Leave town.

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I've just been looking though the part #'s on the R1200RT and noticed a few changes on the FD part list. It seems back on 08-2006 BMW changed a few on components in the rear end.

 

07 33117683038 needle bearing (30X16) - Up to 08/2006 NA Part not available. Call for more info.

 

 

07 33117699865 needle bearing (32X16) - 08/2006 and above

 

Note: the larger OD of the needle bearing on the Rear Axle.

 

Hmmmm....

 

lurker.giflurker.giflurker.gif

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I've just been looking though the part #'s on the R1200RT and noticed a few changes on the FD part list. It seems back on 08-2006 BMW changed a few on components in the rear end.

 

07 33117683038 needle bearing (30X16) - Up to 08/2006 NA Part not available. Call for more info.

 

 

07 33117699865 needle bearing (32X16) - 08/2006 and above

 

Note: the larger OD of the needle bearing on the Rear Axle.

 

Hmmmm....

 

lurker.giflurker.giflurker.gif

 

Naw. It can't be. Haven't you been reading what some of these people have said? According to them, BMW doesn't care and is doing absolutely nothing. According to others, BMW actually WANTS final drives to fail in order to ensure future parts sales for themselves, and service work for their dealers. And this isn't some conspiracy theory, by jiminy. It's the gods' truth. It's a worldwide plot, a reincarnation of the Third Reich no less, world domination and subservience to The Fatherland. eek.gif

 

There are NO larger bearings. BMW has your money and therefore doesn't care. I don't know where you got your information, but the prevailing wisdom in some circles would conclude that you're absolutely wrong. grin.gif

 

Sigh. . .

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

Good point. Thanks for bringing it up. thumbsup.gif

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I've just been looking though the part #'s on the R1200RT and noticed a few changes on the FD part list. It seems back on 08-2006 BMW changed a few on components in the rear end.

 

07 33117683038 needle bearing (30X16) - Up to 08/2006 NA Part not available. Call for more info.

 

 

07 33117699865 needle bearing (32X16) - 08/2006 and above

 

Note: the larger OD of the needle bearing on the Rear Axle.

 

Hmmmm....

 

lurker.giflurker.giflurker.gif

 

Naw. It can't be. Haven't you been reading what some of these people have said? According to them, BMW doesn't care and is doing absolutely nothing. According to others, BMW actually WANTS final drives to fail in order to ensure future parts sales for themselves, and service work for their dealers. And this isn't some conspiracy theory, by jiminy. It's the gods' truth. It's a worldwide plot, a reincarnation of the Third Reich no less, world domination and subservience to The Fatherland. eek.gif

 

There are NO larger bearings. BMW has your money and therefore doesn't care. I don't know where you got your information, but the prevailing wisdom in some circles would conclude that you're absolutely wrong. grin.gif

 

Sigh. . .

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

.

 

 

 

Good point. Thanks for bringing it up. thumbsup.gif

 

lmao.giflmao.giflmao.giflmao.gif

 

A little humor has to help!

 

Now the only concerns are these:

 

1. Did the change help or hurt, or is it unrelated?

 

2. How to tell which part is in my bike?

 

3. What is BMW going to do for all the FDs on the road.... I haven't heard of any recalls.

 

4. When is BMW going to issue a press release, mailing, or other announcement advising us what to do... particularly if they acknowledge a problem and have a fix as seems to be the inference (although I'm not convinced).

 

How am I supposed to find them caring and concerned when they don't fix my bike or even tell me about the fix?

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russell_bynum

When is BMW going to issue a press release, mailing, or other announcement advising us what to do... particularly if they acknowledge a problem and have a fix as seems to be the inference (although I'm not convinced).

 

BMW did the same thing with the throttle cables on the R1100RT's. After they switched from the single-cable setup to the new setup with the junction box and the three cables, they started seeing throttle cable failures. The failure was always at bottom end of the cable an inch or two from the end....basically, it was right where the cable exited the sheath. The end of the sheath was metal.

 

BMW started making changes. At one point, I was with 2 other 2000 R1100RT riders and we each had our stock cable and a spare that we had purchased. So...we had a total of 6 cables. There were 6 different part numbers represented by those 6 cables. Obviously BMW was making changes, presumably to fix the problem. I believe what they ended up with was a cable with a plastic end on the sheath. The end didn't cut into the cable like the original metal one did, and the failures basically went away.

 

That's good...BMW recognized (at least, interally) the problem and fixed it.

 

Were the dealers given this information so they could start recommending to their customers that they replace their old style throttle cables? Nope. Was there a TSB published about the change? Nope. (at least, not publicly)

 

We were left to figure this out on our own...mostly by accident (i.e. "Hey...look...these cables are a little bit different!)

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Now the only concerns are these:

 

1. Did the change help or hurt, or is it unrelated?

 

2. How to tell which part is in my bike?

 

3. What is BMW going to do for all the FDs on the road.... I haven't heard of any recalls.

 

4. When is BMW going to issue a press release, mailing, or other announcement advising us what to do... particularly if they acknowledge a problem and have a fix as seems to be the inference (although I'm not convinced).

 

How am I supposed to find them caring and concerned when they don't fix my bike or even tell me about the fix?

 

If your bike isn't broken, does it need fixing because there's a 1% chance it might break? After all, if it breaks during the warranty period (which is triple the normal industry warranty), they will pay for it. After that, we're all adults and on our own.

 

Why must they do anything for the FD's on the road. Ninety-eight-point-something percent of them have a very good prognosis. Of the ones that fail, those under warranty will be covered.

 

Are they caring if they don't fix what isn't broken? Gee, first we want perfection. Then we want protection from a fractional possibility of imperfection. Then we want to crucify those who don't tell us everything we feel we're entitled to know.

 

A few posts ago, everyone was convinced that the company didn't care and wasn't going to do anything about it. Now there seems proof that they ARE doing something about it, and it's STILL not enough. I guess some people won't be satisfied until they get free bikes and free mainenance for life because someone dared cause them an ounce of worry.

 

Many, it seems, were wrong. Action is being taken. OK, so they're not helicoptering German technical teams to your doorstep to provide unneeded parts and service along with free beer und schnitzel. Get over it.

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OK, so they're not helicoptering German technical teams to your doorstep to provide unneeded parts and service along with free beer und schnitzel. Get over it.

 

If that's included with the extended warranty I'm so in!! thumbsup.gifthumbsup.gifgrin.gifgrin.gif

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If the line is going to move, it will not be based on internet complaints, but on market (in)activity. THAT is where your power is. Not here.

 

Ah...but that's where you're wrong.

 

I made my decision to not buy a BMW (K1200R) when I was in the market for a new bike and part of that reasoning (not all of it, but definitely a consideration) was the way BMW has dealt with (or not) these issues. But that's just me. The most powerful advertising is word of mouth...and it works both ways. If a glossy magazine ad tells me that the R1200RT is THE choice for big-mile riders, that's one thing. But if a bunch of people I know tell me that they've experienced (or know people who have) experienced expensive "leave you stranded on the side of the road in Moosenuts, Montana" problems, that't a whole bunch more powerful. (To me, at least.)

 

We know people come here to research potential bike purchases. Many of them see these complaints and it makes them think twice. We frequently see posts from people who are getting cold feet because of the problems they've read about here and elsewhere.

 

Now...it's true that this type of site is often a repository for people's problems. Go find any similar site and you'll find reports of all sorts of horrifying problems. So you have to take everything with a grain of salt. But when I go on X product's forum and I read about something like this that appears to be impacting a disproportionally large group, it makes me think. When I hear that it's been a recurring problem for a long time and the company hasn't done anything to fix it, it makes me REALLY think.

 

So, I think there's great market power in this sort of thing.

 

 

One more nit to pick...

 

And the vast, VAST majority of bikes go over 100,000 miles without problems.

 

I disagree...because I don't think that the vast majority of bikes ever see 100K. Seriously...we've been going to BMWSt events for quite a few years now. How many bikes do you see with more than 100K on the clock? I know they're out there, and I can name a handful of folks that we both know with more than 100K on their odometers, but "vast majority"? I don't think so. And...many of those 100K+ bikes have had problems (and I'm not talking about burned out lightbulbs and broken throttle cables...I mean big things like splines, final drives, etc.)

 

We're pretty much in agreement...I just think there's value in whining about this online.

 

I'm one of those people who come here to research potential bike purchases. I plan to buy a new bike early in '09. The R1200RT was at the top of my short list. I'll be watching to see what BMW does on this issue.

 

Ron

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russell_bynum

If your bike isn't broken, does it need fixing because there's a 1% chance it might break? After all, if it breaks during the warranty period (which is triple the normal industry warranty), they will pay for it. After that, we're all adults and on our own.

 

Why must they do anything for the FD's on the road. Ninety-eight-point-something percent of them have a very good prognosis. Of the ones that fail, those under warranty will be covered.

 

Are they caring if they don't fix what isn't broken? Gee, first we want perfection. Then we want protection from a fractional possibility of imperfection. Then we want to crucify those who don't tell us everything we feel we're entitled to know.

 

If it is indeed an engineering change intended to improve reliability (vs. a change because they changed bearing suppliers or something), then there was most likely an analysis done that shows what the likely failure criteria is.

 

If I had a bike with the new final drive, I'd want to see that information. Now...that's unreasonable...nobody is going to give me that info. I wouldn't raise a stink because nobody would show me that info, but in an ideal world, that's what I want.

 

More reasonable, I think, would a TSB advising dealers of the change, and the reason for the change.

 

Then, when I'm talking to my local dealer, and he knows that I frequently ride my bike to far away destinations where a breakdown would be a major inconvenience, he can give me the option to rebuild my FD with the new parts.

 

Likewise...when there was a change with the throttle cables...we (the customers) accidentally figured out that there had been a change. We (the customers) examined the new part vs. the old and compared that with our knowledge of the failures, and we (the customers) deduced that this new design was intended to correct the problem that caused the failures. From there we (the customers) came up with a guideline, based on our unscientific and probably incomplete knowledge of previous failures, for a recommended replacement interval to minimize the possibility of failure.

 

IMO, the customer should not have to do that. BMW should have said "throttle cables on such and such bikes (presumably they know which VIN's were produced with the old failure-prone cable) should be replaced at 24,000miles with revised part # XXXXXXX)

 

IMO, the customer should not have to deduce the maintenance schedule for the bike based on failures that are going on and accidental discoveries about BMW's engineering changes.

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BMW did the same thing with the throttle cables on the R1100RT's. After they switched from the single-cable setup to the new setup with the junction box and the three cables, they started seeing throttle cable failures. In any event it certainly wasn't inferior in that regard.

 

...

 

BMW started making changes. At one point, I was with 2 other 2000 R1100RT riders and we each had our stock cable and a spare that we had purchased. So...we had a total of 6 cables. There were 6 different part numbers represented by those 6 cables. Obviously BMW was making changes, presumably to fix the problem. I believe what they ended up with was a cable with a plastic end on the sheath.

Or they could have simply gone back to the original design, which worked quite well. I never could figure out why they messed with it... in fact in my experience the original arrangement held a sync better than the updated version. Sorry... off topic...

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well we can talk all we want about this.

is it an issue?, it isn't!, why does it happen?......

 

the results from the IBR will create an impression on people of BMW quality and be guaranteed plenty of others outside the BMW world know the results. IBR is like racing for MFGs. i stresses the components and proves/fails them. the results aren't good and this has been going on since 93. at what point does a company step back and say we need to major redesign this?

 

alot of ex-bmw (including myself) motorcyclist exist because of this. it's a bummer on BMWs account.

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well we can talk all we want about this.

is it an issue?, it isn't!, why does it happen?......

 

the results from the IBR will create an impression on people of BMW quality and be guaranteed plenty of others outside the BMW world know the results. IBR is like racing for MFGs. i stresses the components and proves/fails them. the results aren't good and this has been going on since 93. at what point does a company step back and say we need to major redesign this?

 

alot of ex-bmw (including myself) motorcyclist exist because of this. it's a bummer on BMWs account.

 

I think it's clear that it does appear to be an issue. As to why it happens, if that answer was readily available, then the remedy would be a lot easier to define.

 

Everything you say rings true. The results do not bode well for BMW's reputation. Sales may be affected. That is the best way to get the attention of the decision makers. We've already seen what appears to be an upgraded bearing for FD's. When consumer actions affect the bottom line, it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

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But, if they fix it then we'll have to find some other part of the kit to tear apart for 14 pages! Anyone for new belt drive systems across the entire range? grin.giflurker.gif

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FWIW, BMW do not sell at a premium price over their Japanese rivals because of quality, perceived or otherwise, but because German workers get paid a whole lot more than their Asian counterparts. It costs a LOT of money to manufacture anything in the EU due to very heavy and restrictive environmental and employment protection laws.

 

Many Japanese bikes are made outside of Japan - Taiwan being a major source of manufacturing capability - and the workers there do not get a legal minimum 20 days paid holiday, a legal maximum 48 hour working week, statutory sick pay, parental leave etc. etc.

 

BMWs cost a lot to make so cost a lot to buy. It is the need to cut costs to stay competitive that drives the quality down.

 

 

Two other economic forces at work as well. The dollar is weak againt the Euro which drives the price of Beemers up. Japan is also notorius for "dumping" bikes in the US for less than they sell them in other markets to drive market share.

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I have waited long enough so it is time for me to go on the record with my thoughts on the FD issue. I will try to keep it short.

 

I think there is an issue. I think BMW ought to do something, such as a recall or offer extended warranty on that repair if a failure happens.

 

I think NHTSA reporting is good but unlikley to produce any regulatory results due to the fact that the failure modalities do not seem to be safety related.

 

In my non-scientific, but sensory perception it seems most failures are happening under heavy use/stress/high mileage conditions- but that is not an excuse. They should not fail.

 

FYI for you R-bike only people... the K-bike guys have their own failure pattern to deal with. K1200RS/GT bikes going back to '97/98s up to the '04s have a far worse pattern of rear engine seal failures which normally leak badly at about 25-35k miles then take out the clutch on the way. That repair is in the same dollar magnitude as the FD replacement. BMW has denied, ignored this trend as well. (FYI you can read the K-Bike forum for examples) My local and well-respected independent shop advised me on my K-bike purchase that the K1200 WILL have a rear main seal failure so just take that into consideration. They also have a rear drive bearing failure rate right up there with the main seal problem. BMW had had nearly 10 years to respond and has not.

 

I think a letter barrage to BMW Motorad, NA is in order with civilized comments and references to the IBR pattern. I also think that enough comments and questions over at the BMW site's user forums might be fun as well. They clearly state that they will edit those forums, but if they get too busy taking the comments down surely they will begin to see the point.

 

I am shopping for extended warranty....

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I think a letter barrage to BMW Motorad, NA is in order with civilized comments and references to the IBR pattern. I also think that enough comments and questions over at the BMW site's user forums might be fun as well. They clearly state that they will edit those forums, but if they get too busy taking the comments down surely they will begin to see the point.

 

I am shopping for extended warranty....

 

I think I'll "vote" with my hard earned $$$. Too many "issues" with the new generation BMWs.

FDs, EWS, HES, Splines, Can-not-Bus, Goofy styling, just to name a few. Like they say "They don't make 'um like they used to" I'm on my third one and probably, (I hate to say) the last. BMW should step up and fix these problems, like HD did with the early 88's cam bearings.

Just an Opinion.

Cheers

Steve

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Aside from Boyter- who among us has experienced a actual FD failure?

 

Please provide us with details of the incident and history of the bike.

 

Me -- in Wyoming in July; '06 RT with about 22,500 miles; problem was play in the rear wheel (splines on axle tube and on flange where rear wheel attaches). I've posted the gory details here, along with pics, at least twice, so I won't repeat myself. If you're interested, just do a search by my user name.

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Aside from Boyter- who among us has experienced a actual FD failure?

 

Please provide us with details of the incident and history of the bike.

 

Me -- in Wyoming in July; '06 RT with about 22,500 miles; problem was play in the rear wheel (splines on axle tube and on flange where rear wheel attaches). I've posted the gory details here, along with pics, at least twice, so I won't repeat myself. If you're interested, just do a search by my user name.

 

 

The worst/fastest new bike failure I've heard of.

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/sh...true#Post855117

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/sh...true#Post859683

 

I got to spend some time with Mike at Torrey XIII. Great dude.....I hope he has better luck on the way to Torrey XIV.

 

Whip

 

 

FYI.....I think Richard(BeneciaRT_GT) is on his second or third FD on his 06 GT.

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I have 6100 miles on mine and just dropped it off at Atlanta BMW with a failed rear drive. I noticed the rear drive was making noise and that the rear wheel was dirty when rolling the bike out of the garage. I thought it might have been loose lugs. After ensuring proper torque I knew I had a failed drive.

 

BMW of Atlanta was surprised by the failure and stated that they have never seen it on a bike with this low miles.

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I have 6100 miles on mine and just dropped it off at Atlanta BMW with a failed rear drive. I noticed the rear drive was making noise and that the rear wheel was dirty when rolling the bike out of the garage. I thought it might have been loose lugs. After ensuring proper torque I knew I had a failed drive.

 

BMW of Atlanta was surprised by the failure and stated that they have never seen it on a bike with this low miles.

 

Hey, Welcome to the board!

 

Jan

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As soon as my warranty runs out, I'm selling my RT. I will not accept even a low probability of a ruined vacation, not to mention the expense of repair, especially given BMW's typical arrogant corporate attitude. By the time my warranty runs out, the Connie 14 will have its own issues worked out and should be a real contender. Vote with your checkbook.

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russell_bynum
I will not accept even a low probability of a ruined vacation, not to mention the expense of repair,

 

There is no motorcycle that will give you reliability so good that it doesn't have at least SOME probability of failure.

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That's more like it! I'm sure there are hundreds more just like you and your moto.

 

These FD threads remind me of group hysteria in a first grade class when one kid gets a tummy ache and 50 more think they have the same problem.

 

It's almost understandable if your a first grader. Here, it's a joke. Send your letters/sell your bikes/hide in the basement. The end is coming. lmao.gif

 

Oh, and do have a nice day.

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After years on Hondas, Suzukis, and Yamahas, I've owned three BMW's. Each one of the first two required "attention" that was way out of proportion to its cost of ownership and engineering benefits. I accepted that because I liked the bikes. Then, I found out that my oilhead had its FD failure right after I traded it in on my R1200RT. (Lucky me, I guess!) I understand that no machine will be perfect. However, having gone through similar issues in the car world with VW, BMW, and Mercedes, I no longer have any tolerance for the corporate attitude of arrogant denial. Just as I have come to prefer Acura and Lexus, I can easily live with the performance and reliability of the Japanese bikes.

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