Final Drives - What are we going to do about it?

[Marty Hill]

'Nando,

 

Thanks for that. Finally, a well thought out explanation. For all those afraid that their fd will grenade. My heartfelt suggestion/don't ride. It's dangerous/people get killed every day. If your gonna worry, it isn't worth the trouble. Cars have failures as well/perhaps staying home would be a good option.

 

Just heard that someone tripped and broke his neck in the kitchen. Wow, where can we find total safety???

 

Enjoy life or hide/your choice.

[Jim VonBaden]

Very well said!

 

Jim

[russell_bynum]

Yeah but then when it comes time to change the belt be prepared to pull the swingarm off or pay someone to do it.

 

Don't know about the BMW (knowing BMW, you probably have to split the case to get to the belt), but the belt on the Buell can be changed on the side of the road without removing the swingarm.

[EffBee]

You make a great point about overall maintenenace costs and risks. I also like your comment about the RT vs. the FJR. Great to hear an honest opinion from the owner of another make. Why are you riding an FJR then instead of a GT?

 

I wanted a new bike. But my wife is retiring this year and that means an adjustment in income, so I went with the less expensive bike. I want an '07RT and will probably pick up a used, low-mileage one in another two years.

[eakins]

[hornet's nest]

 

1. Final Drives are supposed to be maintenance-free, not failure-free.

 

2. Chain drives are infinitely more expensive to maintain and operate, even in light of the failure rate of final drives, BMW or otherwise.

 

Let’s take a look at some numbers and put emotion aside, shall we.

 

First, if it’s YOUR final drive that fails, it hurts. $1,500 ($1400 for the FD and about $100 labor to R&R) is nothing to sneeze at. I’m not trying to minimize the importance of your pain, just put this FD issue into perspective.

 

Some BMW websites have done surveys/polls regarding FD failures. Highest I’ve seen is about 6% failure rate. Lowest I’ve seen is about a 2% failure rate. That assumes a great deal. It assumes that those who haven’t had a failure, and those who have, are equally motivated to participate in the poll. But these websites have thousands of members, and yet get maybe 100 or 200 overall responses, both good and bad, to these polls. Clearly, not everyone is participating and it’s reasonable to expect that those WITH a failure are more likely to contribute to such polls than those without. Realistically, I would put the failure rate of FD’s is on the order of 1%, maybe 1.5%, although I'm probably estimating too high. No, that’s still not OK. But it’s closer to what the reality is. But to keep the nitpickers at bay, let’s take the higher assumption, double it and call it 3%, just for discussion.

 

At best, a 1000cc, 120hp sport-touring (or sport-touring capable) bike will eat a chain and sprockets in 15k-20k at an installed cost of about $400 for a quality DID chain and some good sprockets. Again, to keep the nits away, let’s call it 20k miles.

 

Maintenance/service: Chain lube at $10/can and 500-mile applications, vs. 230cc of a qt. of $20 synthetic gear lube. Well, it’s far more expensive to lube the chain but let’s just call it even. Same for the labor involved in maint/service. You spray your own chain lube 40 times during a 20K chain life. You change your FD fluid 3x. Again, a wash.

 

So, at the end of 100,000 miles, you will have spent $2,000 on chains and sprockets (5X$400), yet if you have a BMW with shaft drive you run an admittedly inflated 3% chance of having to spend $1500. And there’s a big IF involved here. IF your FD fails outside of warranty and IF you didn’t buy an extended warranty, which would eat up a fair share of that $1500, but which would cover your bike for up to 7 years, unlimited mileage, and zero deductible. There is NO warranty that covers chains and sprockets. None. Not from the manufacturer. Not from an aftermarket company. Unless the chain breaks as you pull out of the dealership upon taking delivery of a new bike, it’s considered a “wear” item. You pay. Every time. End of story.

 

Japanese FD’s: Do the Japanese do a better job? Can’t say. Perhaps. But statistically they don’t get as many miles put on them as quickly. And they only offer, on average, a 12/12 warranty, not a 36/36. What does that say about how much confidence they have in their products, or concern for you, their customer?

 

I know. We can whine ad nauseum about what happens when an FD fails in the middle of BFE and being 150 miles from the nearest BMW dealer. Trust me, the local Honzukaha dealer may be 25 miles away, but he doesn’t stock Japanese FD’s either. Doesn’t matter what you ride, you’re gonna need a tow and a motel room.

 

Look, the Japanese do what they do and produce what they produce, and BMW does it their way. I’ve put 90K on an RT and now ride an FJR. Believe me, they’re not the same and the BMW is worth the difference in more ways than I can enumerate.

 

You bought a shaft-drive bike so you wouldn’t have to muck with the FD, not so you would NEVER have to replace it. If you put $400 in a bank account every 20K miles, equal to what you’d spend if you had to replace sprockets and chains, when you hit 100K miles you’d have $2000, with only a 3% chance that you’d have had to spend $1500 of it. WAIT! If you factor out the BMW factory warranty period, then that’s 3% X (64,000/100,000miles), or about a 1.9% chance that you would have had to spend the money. And remember, the 3% was actually 1.5% doubled to keep the nitpickers at bay (not that I think it’s actually going to help in some cases).

 

So, what would you do with that $2000 since there’s about a 98% chance that you’d actually still have it? Sounds like you’ve got a good chunk of your next down payment.

 

FD failures make for BIG news and BIG complaints because it’s a sudden BIG expense. That’s all. (So was the $4,000 transmission in my wife’s Lexus, but we budget $250/month for car maintenance, save the unused, and had it covered before it happened.) Still, if you’re one of the ones, my heart goes out to you because statistically the boogyman got you, just like it got us. But if you look at the numbers, and calculate the costs, and figure the percentages, AND PLAN ACCORDINGLY, we’re way ahead on shaft-drive bikes. Even the ones that have the relatively rare FD failure.

 

What these threads do for me is they point out the assumptions people make, their unrealistic expectations, and their eagerness to look to someone else for solutions. It also shows me how little people plan, then how angry they get when their lack of planning bites them. But that gets into a whole other area of life-living philosophies and practices. It is sooooooo much easier just to blame BMW.

 

tons of st1100 bikes out there with high mileage on original final drives. honda figured it out so why can't bmw?

 

if people would ride say 75,000-80,000 miles and then the final drives might start wearing out and need to be replaced. that's an expected maintaince cost. the problem is alot crap out much earlier unexpectedly, usually on a trip and then involving stress, time & unexpected $ to get it replaced. modern chains & sprockets on the other hand don't unexpectedly fail on a trip. they strech and wear over time and can be planned to be replaced. even the ones that are streching rapidly at the end don't strand ya. you might have adjust every day, but you're still moving.

 

people pay alot more for bmw because they are so "relaible" so they don't have to put extra $ in the bank incase it fails. if i paid a premium for something i've used that extra $ expecting it to perform to that premium. if it was an econo item then i expect that performance and such the possibility of needing to fix it.

 

you talk about being ahead by buying a bmw with a shaft drive but a premium is paid to own a bmw bike vrs the $2000 it cost to replace chains/sprockets. i know the premium is more than $2000 to own a bmw vrs a Japanese bike. on top of that, bmw FD have issues. how is that being ahead?

 

the true issue is no one likes to pay a premium for an item that performs less than others. the ones who argue for bmw are diehards whatever happens. the ones who have issue are not. they bought something at a premium expecting something to work as a premium. reports of these problems concern us. most don't have tons of extra $ to throw around and figured i paid more in the beginning so i would not have problems later.

[eakins]

'Nando,

 

Thanks for that. Finally, a well thought out explanation. For all those afraid that their fd will grenade. My heartfelt suggestion/don't ride. It's dangerous/people get killed every day. If your gonna worry, it isn't worth the trouble. Cars have failures as well/perhaps staying home would be a good option.

 

Just heard that someone tripped and broke his neck in the kitchen. Wow, where can we find total safety???

 

Enjoy life or hide/your choice.

 

i think it's less of a fear and more of being mad when one considers what they paid for these premium "reliable" motorcycles. chances are most will never have a problem but bmw FD fail more than other mfgs. it sucks being last in that regard.

[russell_bynum]

i think it's less of a fear and more of being mad when one considers what they paid for these premium "reliable" motorcycles. chances are most will never have a problem but bmw FD fail more than other mfgs. it sucks being last in that regard.

 

Exactly.

 

That, and the fact that there IS a problem (despite what BMW will tell you), and they have not fixed it in almost 10 years.

[smiller]

So, at the end of 100,000 miles,

I think what you may be missing is that no one here is lampooning final drives that provide 100,000 miles of good service and then require maintenance, rather the high number that seem to be failing at relatively low miles. Low-mileage failures indicate a problem, pure and simple.

[eakins]

i think it's less of a fear and more of being mad when one considers what they paid for these premium "reliable" motorcycles. chances are most will never have a problem but bmw FD fail more than other mfgs. it sucks being last in that regard.

 

Exactly.

 

That, and the fact that there IS a problem (despite what BMW will tell you), and they have not fixed it in almost 10 years.

 

agreed. i loved my 2 bmw but had problems. i bought a vstrom because i just want it to work so i can go out and ride. i do well with $ but don't have any to burn. all 3 of my bikes represent proven technology & i'm content with that.

[eakins]

Very well said!

 

Jim

jim you have time & $ to burn or act like it.

 

from the mods on the black klr, to your first GS to the 1200GS you now own w/ mods. one doesn't move upwards through bike like that without disposable funds.

[Hawk28]

Honestly, did any one here buy a BMW motorcycle because they thought it would be more reliable than a Honda or Yamaha? More sophisticated engineering, better fit, finish and style, sure. But more reliable?

[smiller]

Honestly, did any one here buy a BMW motorcycle because they thought it would be more reliable than a Honda or Yamaha? More sophisticated engineering, better fit, finish and style, sure. But more reliable?

Personally I expected that reliability would be about the same. But I'm not sure I'm getting your point... should I have anticipated it to be less?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

'Nando,

Both a well thought out explanation and a good comparison to a chain drive bike.

 

A little niggle with the chain drive although otherwise I would fully agree. I ride a chain driven motorcycle as my primary transportation/leisure travel bike and most here would agree that I am not easy on my equipment and do put lots of miles on my bikes. The chain and sprockets thing you had about right except for the costs. I change sprockets about every third chain, not every chain. Cost is about what you stated as the new, high strength chains are quite expensive. A chain alone is about $150 parts cost at retail. I won't bring in the labor, I do my own. So, two chains at $150 plus one set of sprockets at $150 more gets me 45K miles down the road with no additional expense until the 60K mile point.

 

Lube cost is an issue but a minor one as well as time to lube/adjust. Takes no more than 10 minutes per day if an adjustment is needed. One can of chain lube at $9 lasts me about 5K miles of riding. Plugging that into the cycle doesn't add much to the costs.

[John in VA]

...the fact that there IS a problem (despite what BMW will tell you), and they have not fixed it in almost 10 years.

 

Why not?

[EffBee]

tons of st1100 bikes out there with high mileage on original final drives. honda figured it out so why can't bmw?

 

You're comparing apples to oranges, but if Honda FD's fail at less than 1% (or even 1/2%) and BMW's fail at a real-world rate of 1.0-1.5%, then each of us must make the decision if we want the advantages along with the risk. I'm not suggesting either path. Just that two are open.

 

if people would ride say 75,000-80,000 miles and then the final drives might start wearing out and need to be replaced. that's an expected maintaince cost. the problem is alot crap out much earlier unexpectedly, usually on a trip and then involving stress, time & unexpected $ to get it replaced. modern chains & sprockets on the other hand don't unexpectedly fail on a trip. they strech and wear over time and can be planned to be replaced. even the ones that are streching rapidly at the end don't strand ya. you might have adjust every day, but you're still moving.

 

First, I've seen a Honda ST with a rear drive that grenaded at less than 3,000 miles. If I searched, I could probably find others with relatively early failures. So do I paint an entire brand with those findings, however small? This is why there's a law of averages. Yes, an early failure can be very demoralizing. But that's a personal issue when what we're talking about are general, brand-wide, averaged expectations. And while not perfect, they're not the gloom and doom that some are so willing to paint.

 

As far as it "being on a trip and then involving stress, time. . ." that's merely situational. If BMW's were used more for commuting and less for long trips, then any FD failures would be "on our way to work, in heavy traffic, causing dangerous problems, excuses to the boss, yadda-yadda." Besides, are you saying that they happen "usually" on trips because you KNOW this or because those are the situations about which you've read? Sounds to me like someone is taking selected sound bites and thinks they've seen the entire movie.

 

With regard to chains, yes, they break. Sprockets will wear, weaken and strip their teeth, and leave riders stranded. Preventive maintenance can mitigate these problems, but chains are not failure-proof.

 

people pay alot more for bmw because they are so "relaible" so they don't have to put extra $ in the bank incase it fails. if i paid a premium for something i've used that extra $ expecting it to perform to that premium. if it was an econo item then i expect that performance and such the possibility of needing to fix it.

 

I'm so glad to know that you understand the individual motivation of every BMW purchaser out there, and that primary on that list is "reliability." Unfortunately, I'm not so clairvoyant.

 

People buy what they want for a variety of reasons. Performance. Amenities. Accessories. Reputation. Cachet. Status. Perception. Tradition. Comfort. Familiarity. Features. Association. And even Reliability. If "reliability" was tops on your list, and you're disappointed, then please find happiness elsewhere. It was AMONG my motivators when I purchased a BMW. But it wasn't at the top of my list. Yet I was NOT disappointed. Nor are the vast majority of owners. But I agree. They're not for everyone. We each have to know ourselves well enough to make those decisions. Making the wrong decision, and then complaining about the results you got, seems like avoidance to me.

 

you talk about being ahead by buying a bmw with a shaft drive but a premium is paid to own a bmw bike vrs the $2000 it cost to replace chains/sprockets. i know the premium is more than $2000 to own a bmw vrs a Japanese bike. on top of that, bmw FD have issues. how is that being ahead?

 

"BMW FD have issues" ??? No they don't. PEOPLE have issues with the risk/reward ratio of owning a bike that provides such a rewarding ownership and riding experience, but with perhaps an FD that fails 1-2% more often than other brands. Again, for them there are alternatives that provide less (a LOT less) in many areas, but also reduces that 1-2% mortal fear of being stranded. I don't make judgments for others. If a BMW doesn't suit them, move on. This is not the sport/touring bike you are looking for.

 

the true issue is no one likes to pay a premium for an item that performs less than others. the ones who argue for bmw are diehards whatever happens. the ones who have issue are not. they bought something at a premium expecting something to work as a premium. reports of these problems concern us. most don't have tons of extra $ to throw around and figured i paid more in the beginning so i would not have problems later.

 

Interesting. The Labeling. These people are "diehards." These people are not. They paid expecting THIS. It concerns us when we don't get THIS.

 

If you have concerns, my original post provided some numbers that should help alleviate most of those fears. Statistically, your BMW is just fine. However, if worrying is in your nature, and you want to take a 1-2% FD failure rate and throw away everything else the bikes offer because of it, you're perfectly entitled to make that call. It's not how I live my life, but I'm not you. Go. Be happy. Ride what you want. If what you want is a BMW, this is how they're made. Take it, with its tiny statistical imperfections. Or don't take it.

 

Look, the point of my original post is to provide some perspective. There are those who will look at the perspective and say, "Yup, statistically I run a very, very small risk, but the rewards are so great and I'm the kind of person who is willing to take a tiny gamble for the potential payoff." Others will take that 2% and make Vesuvius out of it and leave. Either way is fine. We're not all the same kind of people. But if you're going to complain, at least understand the situation in the scope of the larger picture. Don't just complain and continue to ride BMW's, and complain, and fear, and worry, and sweat, and continue to ride BMW's, and complain, and fear, and worry. . . BMW's are fabulous, thrilling, rewarding, exhillarating and not-quite-perfect machines. They are what they are. IMHO, ride one or move on.

[Wyn]

Don't buy one. Tell your friends not to buy one. As long as this problem's been around, sales continue to increase. Tells me people don't care, that is, until their final drive pukes.

 

 

 

BMWs are just "me, too" fashion statements anyway.

 

Excuse me?? Would that be oppossed to Harley's are "look at me" lemming bikes?

[baggerchris]

I think this is a trouble spot with Beemers. All makes have their own and this is one of BMW's.

 

I think they need to fix it. Supposedly this new design was supposed to take care of it, but it doesn't look like it to me.

[soboy]

39 BMW shaft drive motorcycles from the oilhead or more modern era entered this year's IBR - 3 of those have had FD failures - that is an 8% failure rate.

[EffBee]

39 BMW shaft drive motorcycles from the oilhead or more modern era entered this year's IBR - 3 of those have had FD failures - that is an 8% failure rate.

 

And that statistically invalid sample proves what? The mileage on these bikes, belonging to PRACTICED long-distance riders was what? Were they being ridden at super-legal speeds for hours on end? Without controls on the sources, the data proves nothing. A couple of Iron Butt Rallies ago, there were even more BMW's entered and there were no FD failures. That didn't prove anything either.

 

Let's get something clear. I also wish that BMW could make their FD's completely bulletproof. So far, no manufacturer has accomplished that. But if we KNOW that there is a statistically small issue, and we proceed to purchase and ride them anyway, why are we complaining?

[soboy]

The three BMW FD failures in the IBR speak for themselves. Just as the zero FD failures out of 45 shaft drive Japanese bikes in the rally does. I get the feeling we have some BMW apologists in our midst

[motoguy128]

8% is pretty close to some estimates of 6%. 39 is too small of a sample size to be very accurate. I would conclude from it that 4-10% failure rate.

 

1 is a anomoly, 2 is a coincidence, 3 indicates a problem to me.

 

Am I still happy to own my BWM with it's POS OEM shocks, notchy transmission, and ticking timebomb final drive.... YUP! I love this bike! It would be nice if all these things were improved... but such is life.

[wrestleantares]

2 of the failures were the new sealed never maintain FD's. That would make their failure rate (as it pertains to the IBR) even higher.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The three BMW FD failures in the IBR speak for themselves.

 

As has been pointed out, you're talking about a very small sample - 39 bikes. If you're going to draw a strong conclusion from that tiny data set, then you'll have come up with some other reason to explain why it's wrong to beam with pride at the zero BMW FD failures in the earlier IBR that EffBee mentioned.

[smiller]

You're comparing apples to oranges

I'm not sure how you can try to make a point by comparing a gear final drive to a chain and sprockets and then go on to call a comparison of a Honda and BMW final drive 'apples to oranges.' The latter comparison seems much more appropriate than the former.

 

As has been pointed out, you're talking about a very small sample - 39 bikes. If you're going to draw a strong conclusion from that tiny data set, then you'll have come up with some other reason to explain why it's wrong to beam with pride at the zero BMW FD failures in the earlier IBR that EffBee mentioned.

I think you've managed to display both the strong and weak points of thinking like an engineer in just one statement.

[ghaverkamp]

1 is a anomoly, 2 is a coincidence, 3 indicates a problem to me.

 

It's really only a problem for BMW if it's higher than their expected failure rate. Because we don't know what that rate is, we don't know if there's a problem.

 

Now, such criteria from a manufacturer, if that is in fact the situation here, may cause consumers to consider their choices more carefully, but it only creates a problem for the manufacturer if the rate causes consumers to stop buying.

[russell_bynum]

But if we KNOW that there is a statistically small issue, and we proceed to purchase and ride them anyway, why are we complaining?

 

For the same reason that we complain about surging....because it's a blemish on an otherwise nearly perfect machine. (Sound familiar? I borrowed that phrase from you.)

 

Also, because it seems (to me, anyway) that it shouldn't be a problem. With the engineering talent that BMW has, I don't understand why they can't seem to fix this problem. If it's a problem for a year or two in a new design, then they fix it...fine. This has been going on for almost 10 years and shows no signs of being fixed any time soon.

 

Your comparison to the price of chain drive is very valid...from a cost perspective. And yes...chain drives do (very) occasionally fail with no previous warning. But for the most part, I can plan for the need to replace a worn chain/sprockets. If I'm leaving on a major trip (or the IBR), it's easy for me to inspect the chain and sprockets and decide if they need to be replaced. There seems to be little or no rhyme, reason, or warning when a BMW final drive fails.

 

Personally...we still own a shaft-drive BMW. We have really good roadside assistance (the KOA plan) and I wouldn't hesitate to jump on the bike and ride cross-country tomorrow. I wouldn't give the final drive a second thought. But...if I were entering the Iron Butt Rally, or planning a once-in-a-lifetime vacation, I would either pick a different bike or have a spare FD ready to be shipped. I expect more than that from BMW.

 

And if this was a "final drives always start failing around XXXXXXmiles", then I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's a machine and machines wear out. Tell me what the replacement interval should be and I can deal with that.

[EffBee]

I get the feeling we have some BMW apologists in our midst

 

Not an apologist, soboy (Gee, with nearly 900 posts already could you please fill in your bio enough to let us know what your name is). I make no excuses for their FD failure rate. Instead, I'm a realist. BMW's are what they are. Ride one or don't. But to ride, and complain, and try to finagle this thing into an NHTSA "Safety" Recall (as seemed the intent of the OP), and to continue to ride and continue to complain seem disingenuous to me.

 

(parenthetically) Two-percent of tall women cheat on their spouses. Short women don't. You like tall women, so you marry one and then spend your time complaining because either she did cheat or statistically she's a bit more likely to cheat. Either accept it as the price of your preference, or move on.

[EffBee]

1 is a anomoly, 2 is a coincidence, 3 indicates a problem to me.

And no one said there wasn't one.

 

Am I still happy to own my BWM with it's POS OEM shocks, notchy transmission, and ticking timebomb final drive.... YUP! I love this bike! It would be nice if all these things were improved... but such is life.

Exactly! YOU and I would likely enjoy a beer together.

[EffBee]

But if we KNOW that there is a statistically small issue, and we proceed to purchase and ride them anyway, why are we complaining?

 

For the same reason that we complain about surging....because it's a blemish on an otherwise nearly perfect machine. (Sound familiar? I borrowed that phrase from you.)

Back when we were discussing surging, it was a discussion about something we could fix ourselves. Thus it was a discussion that had potentially positive, self-administered results. It wasn't just kvetching.

[Jim VonBaden]

Very well said!

 

Jim

jim you have time & $ to burn or act like it.

 

from the mods on the black klr, to your first GS to the 1200GS you now own w/ mods. one doesn't move upwards through bike like that without disposable funds.

 

It isn't as expensive as you think if it is your only hobby! Besides, I do the work myself, and pay for it little by little. Believe me, as a GS 12 I do not make that much money!

 

That still doesn't mean I throw it away, but I am also realistic. I had a FD go on my R1100GS, and I was pissed because I was on the road. But I still loved the bike, and no other does it for me.

 

Riding a bike is a hobby and a luxury for most of us. A few $$ is part of ownership.

 

I still do not buy into the whole whinning thing that always starts out: "For a premium bike, or For the price of a BMW..."

 

Many other bikes are not far off in price, and NONE of them ride like my BMW. I looked at every bike out there when I wanted a new bike, and would have been thrilled to buy one for half what I paid for my GS, but there is nothing that does what I want better than the BMW, and I am sure MANY people feel the same way!

 

Jim

[russell_bynum]

Back when we were discussing surging, it was a discussion about something we could fix ourselves. Thus it was a discussion that had potentially positive, self-administered results. It wasn't just kvetching.

 

I think your "love it or leave it" advice is probably good advice...but only because I think BMW is too arrogant to recognize the problem and deal with it. I don't think the NHTSA is going to be able to do anything about it....it's going to have to be someone at BMW with "VP" in their title calling a meeting and saying "reduce the final drive failure rate to X or less, or nobody gets a raise/bonus next year."

 

You can bet that when owners started complaining about the heat on the FJR, someone at Yamaha said "We need to fix this."

 

My guess is BMW doesn't care. Most units will make it out of the warranty period, and most people who buy new BMW's seem to be the type who buy a new bike every couple of years, so they're not likely to ever have the bike long enough to experience the problem. (Note: That's my perception, and not based on any hard numbers.) By the time it gets to the second owner, BMW isn't going to make much on them, so they don't care. In today's market, that's probably not a bad way to do business. It sucks for guys like me, but I don't buy a new bike every year because the new bike has an auto animatronic hydraulic butt-wiper that mine doesn't have, so BMW isn't concerned with my opinion.

[soboy]

I'm just having a little light hearted fun here with ya, EffBee (I've noticed this db gets a tad serious at times).

 

But seriously, my problem with the FD failures is that BMW charges a premium price over its Japanese competitors. Having worked for OEM automobile manufacturers in the 80s and 90s, and still working with that industry today, I know that a premium price for a motorized vehicle gets the buyer a number of things - perceived status, additional luxury, increased performance, more amenities, a higher level of customer service, better build quality, higher quality of components, more reliability, a cappuchino instead of rot-gut coffee. The list is a long one.

 

Where BMW has failed is to provide its customers with the reliability and quality they deserve in their FDs. They paid extra for their motorcycles, and to me, it is inexcusable to get a FD that obviously has inherent design and/or manufacturing flaws. If this was some el-cheapo Chinese knockoff sold at a bargain basement price, then the FD failures could be written off as "you get what you pay for". But in the case of BMW, you are not getting the quality that they charged you extra for.

 

(Geez, I've been hanging around this board for years and haven't filled out my profile? I wonder how that slipped throught the cracks - I'll take care of that today).

 

All the best - it doesn't matter to me what brand you ride, as long as you ride something.

[BamaRider]

parenthetically) Two-percent of tall women cheat on their spouses. Short women don't. You like tall women, so you marry one and then spend your time complaining because either she did cheat or statistically she's a bit more likely to cheat. Either accept it as the price of your preference, or move on.

 

LMAO

[Jim VonBaden]

I get the feeling we have some BMW apologists in our midst

 

Not an apologist, soboy (Gee, with nearly 900 posts already could you please fill in your bio enough to let us know what your name is). I make no excuses for their FD failure rate. Instead, I'm a realist. BMW's are what they are. Ride one or don't. But to ride, and complain, and try to finagle this thing into an NHTSA "Safety" Recall (as seemed the intent of the OP), and to continue to ride and continue to complain seem disingenuous to me.

 

(parenthetically) Two-percent of tall women cheat on their spouses. Short women don't. You like tall women, so you marry one and then spend your time complaining because either she did cheat or statistically she's a bit more likely to cheat. Either accept it as the price of your preference, or move on.

 

Why is it if someone doesn't jump on the bandwagon of BMW Sucks, do we get labeled an "Apologist, or a Defender"?

 

What can't we disagree without being denigraded for our opinion? Why can't those who have chossen to move on, or are unhappy they made a perceived bad decision to buy a BMW, let the rest of us who like our bikes and are not unhappy with the small statistical odds of random failures, have as valid an opinion as the "attackers"?

 

Jim

[smiller]

but I don't buy a new bike every year because the new bike has an auto animatronic hydraulic butt-wiper that mine doesn't have, so BMW isn't concerned with my opinion.

Well if that doesn't sum it up in one sentence I don't know what does.

[russell_bynum]

but I don't buy a new bike every year because the new bike has an auto animatronic hydraulic butt-wiper that mine doesn't have, so BMW isn't concerned with my opinion.

Well if that doesn't sum it up in one sentence I don't know what does.

 

 

And it would be tough to fault BMW for doing business that way, since their sales continue to increase.

[soboy]

There has been absolutely no mention of a "BMW Sucks" bandwagon or theme in this thread until you brought it up, nor has anyone or their opinion been denigrated. Is there a full moon tonite? Seems that some chords have been struck here. Ride whatever you like, but don't bury your head in the sand either.

[smiller]

And it would be tough to fault BMW for doing business that way, since their sales continue to increase.

Yeah, but I was also agreeing with the 'It sucks for guys like us' part.

 

As long as that's what most consumers clamor for though, that's what we're going to get...

[russell_bynum]

There has been absolutely no mention of a "BMW Sucks" bandwagon or theme in this thread until you brought it up, nor has anyone or their opinion been denigrated. Is there a full moon tonite? Seems that some chords have been struck here. Ride whatever you like, but don't bury your head in the sand either.

 

I think BMW makes some phenominal bikes. Absolutely amazing bikes.

 

I know the new R1200RT is better in almost every way than my R1100RT was, and my RT was an incredible bike that exceeded my expectations in almost every way every time I threw a leg over it.

 

Lisa's R1100RS is an insanely fun bike, but it's still comfortable enough to lay down the miles. I've ridden the R1200ST (the R11XXRS replacement) and it is substantially better than the RS was.

 

I also have two BMW cars which continue to amaze me on a daily basis.

 

To say I think BMW sucks or I don't like their products is just flat wrong.

 

I do think it sucks the way they have dealt with (or, completely ignored for almost 10 years) the final drive failure problems. From a business perspective, I know why they do it, but as a consumer, I think it sucks.

[Boffin]

FWIW, BMW do not sell at a premium price over their Japanese rivals because of quality, perceived or otherwise, but because German workers get paid a whole lot more than their Asian counterparts. It costs a LOT of money to manufacture anything in the EU due to very heavy and restrictive environmental and employment protection laws.

 

Many Japanese bikes are made outside of Japan - Taiwan being a major source of manufacturing capability - and the workers there do not get a legal minimum 20 days paid holiday, a legal maximum 48 hour working week, statutory sick pay, parental leave etc. etc.

 

BMWs cost a lot to make so cost a lot to buy. It is the need to cut costs to stay competitive that drives the quality down.

 

Andy

[smiller]

I do think it sucks the way they have dealt with (or, completely ignored for almost 10 years) the final drive failure problems. From a business perspective, I know why they do it, but as a consumer, I think it sucks.

I don't know why they do it. How difficult can it be to produce a final drive with the same longevity as similar machines made by other manufacturers?

 

And for the record, I agree with your positive assessment of the other qualities of BMW motorcycles. Why asking for improvement where it is obviously needed is considered unwarranted by so many is another thing that I don't understand though.

[Jim VonBaden]

There has been absolutely no mention of a "BMW Sucks" bandwagon or theme in this thread until you brought it up, nor has anyone or their opinion been denigrated. Is there a full moon tonite? Seems that some chords have been struck here. Ride whatever you like, but don't bury your head in the sand either.

 

You quoted it, not me. The impression by me, and maybe others, is that many hate BMW for various reasons, and if anyone "defends" their choice of bike, then they are "burrying their head in the sand".

 

I say ABSOLUTELY not true, we recognize the risk we take purchassing the bike, and anyone with half a brain and paying any attention at all knows the score, and if they still choose to buy the bike, and then complain they didn't know, is a fool! How can you know what is said about BMW by so many, and then buy the bike and whine?

 

Because people love to complain.

 

Afraid of it, don't like it, think BMW is over priced and under engineered, DON'T BUY A BMW!

 

Simple, but it seems so hard for some to understand.

 

Jim

 

PS Yes, I know many are foolish enough to buy a bike based on a reputation they heard somewhere, but if they are dumb enough not to do a little research, then what do they expect?

[smiller]

What sort of research would have told a hexhead buyer in 2005 or 2006 that there might still be problems with the final drive?

[russell_bynum]

PS Yes, I know many are foolish enough to buy a bike based on a reputation they heard somewhere, but if they are dumb enough not to do a little research, then what do they expect?

 

If people aren't supposed to complain about the problems, then where exactly are potential buyers going to get their information when they do their research?

[Jim VonBaden]

What sort of research would have told a hexhead buyer in 2005 or 2006 that there might still be problems with the final drive?

 

This forum had a ton of posts about the first 500 GS bikes. But we are not only talking about the R1200, are we? The R1100/1150 has had it's share of failures as well, particularly the 2002 within 20K miles, so no excuses.

 

Come on, be real, it is like smoking. Who honestly never heard that smoking is bad for you, but still smokes?

 

The fearmongering on the BMW related forums is almost manic, from surging to final drives, to the Canbus and weak wheels, it is endemic. I have not seen this type of complaining on any other brand specific forums, though have seen plenty of complaints about issues that crop up over and over.

 

Take a look at orange crush on ADVRider, and you will see many issues that crop up over and over, and the KTM is not THAT much cheaper than BMW. Yet you rarely hear the type of complaining BMW seems to bring out!

 

Jim

[Jim VonBaden]

PS Yes, I know many are foolish enough to buy a bike based on a reputation they heard somewhere, but if they are dumb enough not to do a little research, then what do they expect?

 

If people aren't supposed to complain about the problems, then where exactly are potential buyers going to get their information when they do their research?

 

There is a huge difference between complaining and whinning.

 

How many of you have jumped on literally every single thread about FD issues and belabored the point on how BMW does nothing?

 

Is that valid concern, or simple whinning?

 

Jim

[soboy]

Interesting point about EU labor, but the typical motorcycle buyer in the U.S. does not care about BMW's labor costs. He just knows that BMW charges more money for its products than its Japanese competitors do for theirs.

 

Informed motorcycle shoppers are aware that they are going to pay significantly more for a BMW motorcycle than its Japanese counterpart. Paying more and getting less quality (speaking only of the FD here) is not an equation that most people are ready to accept.

 

During all the market research I participated in for my OEM, I never met one consumer who said it was ok to scrimp anywhere on quality (the argument being that since labor costs are so much higher, we have to make it up somewhere). As we say in the South, that dog will not hunt.

[EffBee]

I'm just having a little light hearted fun here with ya, EffBee (I've noticed this db gets a tad serious at times).

 

But seriously, my problem with the FD failures is that BMW charges a premium price over its Japanese competitors. Having worked for OEM automobile manufacturers in the 80s and 90s, and still working with that industry today, I know that a premium price for a motorized vehicle gets the buyer a number of things - perceived status, additional luxury, increased performance, more amenities, a higher level of customer service, better build quality, higher quality of components, more reliability, a cappuchino instead of rot-gut coffee. The list is a long one.

 

Where BMW has failed is to provide its customers with the reliability and quality they deserve in their FDs. They paid extra for their motorcycles, and to me, it is inexcusable to get a FD that obviously has inherent design and/or manufacturing flaws. If this was some el-cheapo Chinese knockoff sold at a bargain basement price, then the FD failures could be written off as "you get what you pay for". But in the case of BMW, you are not getting the quality that they charged you extra for.

 

(Geez, I've been hanging around this board for years and haven't filled out my profile? I wonder how that slipped throught the cracks - I'll take care of that today).

 

All the best - it doesn't matter to me what brand you ride, as long as you ride something.

 

Danny, now THAT is an intelligent, well-considered, well-expressed response that I can truly respect. I would, however, disagree that you were charged "extra" for quality. You may have paid "more" for features other bikes don't have, for limited production costs, for a longer warranty, for a falling exchange rate, etc. Price is a function of many things. So is quality. Nevertheless, the level of quality you feel should be a part of something that price, and which you feel you did not receive (you've had an FD failure, yes? or is this all anticipatory?), obviously doesn't satisfy you. I say that our motorcycling choices should reflect that. Either it keeps you from the brand, or it is an acceptable trade-off for everything else the brand delivers. Complaining only take me back to the anecdote above about tall women.

[russell_bynum]

PS Yes, I know many are foolish enough to buy a bike based on a reputation they heard somewhere, but if they are dumb enough not to do a little research, then what do they expect?

 

If people aren't supposed to complain about the problems, then where exactly are potential buyers going to get their information when they do their research?

 

How many of you have jumped on literally every single thread about FD issues and belabored the point on how BMW does nothing?

 

It's been a slow week at work.

 

[Twisties]

Jan,

 

Linky no work if you are not a member of the LT forum.

 

Bud, It would be better if you registered since some of the results/answers are pop-ups on separate pages. They are very interesting: No fires, but wheel wobble, oil spilling and loss of braking and control are noted. Also some of the other details can only be seen from the pop ups. NOTE: THE SURVEY QUESTION IS RESTRICTED TO LT'S AND THIS IS AN LT SITE. A FEW OTHER BIKES HAVE REPORTED HERE, BUT I DON'T TAKE THOSE RESULTS SERIOUSLY. Here is the main results page:

 

Survey Questions

 

We are collecting information regarding the Rear Drive Failure issue for the K1200LT. We are not looking for a detailed commentary, opinions, speculation, or general chat on the subject.

 

Nobody from BMWNA has asked us to collect this information; however, based on several requests, we will conduct this survey and make the results available to BMW Motorrad USA if they request it, but it will be kept here as an open thread for them to view (along with the rest of the world).

 

Please DO NOT use the back button in your browser. Use the Previous Page and Next Page buttons.

 

Click the "Next Page" button to begin the survey.

 

Owner Information

 

1. [*] First Name

Total Answers - 160

[ View Answers ]

 

2. [*] Last Name

Total Answers - 160

[ View Answers ]

 

3. [*] Email Address

Total Answers - 160

[ View Answers ]

 

4. [*] City

Total Answers - 160

[ View Answers ]

 

5. [*] State or Province

Total Answers - 159

[ View Answers ]

 

6. [*] Country

Total Answers - 160

[ View Answers ]

 

Motorcycle Information

 

7. [*] Model

K1200LT - 154 96.25% 96.25%

R1150GS - 3 1.88% 1.88%

K1200RS - 3 1.88% 1.88%

Total Answers - 160

 

8. [*] Model Year

1999 - 63 39.38% 39.38%

2000 - 44 27.50% 27.50%

2001 - 14 8.75% 8.75%

2002 - 32 20.00% 20.00%

2003 - 4 2.50% 2.50%

2004 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

2005 - 2 1.25% 1.25%

2006 - 0 0.00% 0.00%

2007 - 0 0.00% 0.00%

Total Answers - 160

 

9. [*] Build Date

- the build date can be found on the information plate under the rider seat

- the build date is in the format MMYY (enter 9999 if unknown)

Total Answers - 160

[ View Answers ]

 

10. [*] VIN

- the last 7 digits is all we really need

Total Answers - 160

[ View Answers ]

 

11. [*] Mileage on your Motorcycle

Less than 10000 - 9 5.63% 5.63%

10000-19999 - 20 12.50% 12.50%

20000-29999 - 36 22.50% 22.50%

30000-35999 - 17 10.63% 10.63%

36000-39999 - 15 9.38% 9.38%

40000-44999 - 20 12.50% 12.50%

45000-49999 - 9 5.63% 5.63%

50000-54999 - 9 5.63% 5.63%

55000-59999 - 6 3.75% 3.75%

60000-64999 - 3 1.88% 1.88%

65000-69999 - 2 1.25% 1.25%

70000-74999 - 5 3.13% 3.13%

75000-79999 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

80000-84999 - 4 2.50% 2.50%

85000-89999 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

90000-94999 - 0 0.00% 0.00%

95000-99999 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

100000-149999 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

150000-200000 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

More than 200000 - 0 0.00% 0.00%

Total Answers - 160

 

Rear Drive Failure Information

 

12. [*] Mileage when you encountered your failure

Less than 10000 - 13 8.13% 8.13%

10000-19999 - 22 13.75% 13.75%

20000-29999 - 41 25.63% 25.63%

30000-35999 - 25 15.63% 15.63%

36000-39999 - 11 6.88% 6.88%

40000-44999 - 18 11.25% 11.25%

45000-49999 - 8 5.00% 5.00%

50000-54999 - 6 3.75% 3.75%

55000-59999 - 2 1.25% 1.25%

60000-64999 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

65000-69999 - 2 1.25% 1.25%

70000-74999 - 3 1.88% 1.88%

75000-79999 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

80000-84999 - 5 3.13% 3.13%

85000-89999 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

90000-94999 - 0 0.00% 0.00%

95000-99999 - 1 0.63% 0.63%

100000-149999 - 0 0.00% 0.00%

150000-200000 - 0 0.00% 0.00%

More than 200000 - 0 0.00% 0.00%

Total Answers - 160

 

13. [*] Type of oil used in final drive

Dino - 59 36.88% 36.88%

Synthetic - 101 63.13% 63.13%

Total Answers - 160

 

14. [*] Was there any warning of impending failure (include a description)

Total Answers - 139

[ View Answers ]

 

15. [*] Do you ride mostly One-up or Two-up

- if you ride two up less than 50% of the time, please choose One-Up

One-Up - 107 66.88% 66.88%

Two-Up - 53 33.13% 33.13%

Total Answers - 160

 

16. [*] Do you pull a trailer

Yes - 23 14.38% 14.38%

No - 137 85.63% 85.63%

Total Answers - 160

 

17. [*] Brief description of failure

- generalized technical description is good - seal, entire drive, etc.

Total Answers - 160

[ View Answers ]

 

18. [*] Resolution (if any)

Total Answers - 159

[ View Answers ]

 

19. [*] BMW Dealer who does your service (or the one you like to do your service)

Total Answers - 155

[ View Answers ]

 

20. [*] Did you require assistance from BMW Roadside Assistance / Cross Country Motor Club

Yes - 33 20.63% 20.63%

No - 127 79.38% 79.38%

Total Answers - 160

 

21. [*] Have you reported your failure to NHTSA

Yes - 80 50.00% 50.00%

No - 80 50.00% 50.00%

Total Answers - 160

 

NOTES:

 

If you answered NO to question 21, please take a moment to enter your failure in the NHTSA complaint database at

 

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

 

Be sure to list the Component Failure under the following category: SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC:ANTILOCK

 

Replies that do not conform to the instructions described in this request will be deleted.

 

Thanks for your help.

 

The best thing as a community that we can do regarding this problem are:

 

1) Continue to report rear drive failures into our database by making a reply to this survey

2) Report each failure to NHTSA

3) Report each failure to the editor at Motorcycle Consumer News (editor@mcnews.com)

4) Report each failure to the editor of BMW Owner News (editor@bmwmoa.org)

 

It is important that people who have experienced a rear drive failure take the initiative and convey their experience to NHTSA, Motorcycle Consumer News, and BMW Owner News. Remember, it was reports to Motorcycle Consumer News that made Honda become proactive on the GL1800 overheating and frame breakage problems.

 

Click the "Finish" button to complete the survey.